Chrys Bader - A masterclass on the art of building viral consumer apps for the Internet!

Delegating the task is different than having a thought partner. And if you blur those lines, delegating critical thought and then just taking the output of the AI as it is without question, to me, is a risk to any business or people operating on that kind of information. So like in the beginning of AI, so our team would say, come up with a marketing plan, and they would generate it using ChatGPT. It lacks context. that a human would have writing it about the business, about our goals and everything. And it felt like a little bit more generic. So if people are operating purely on this, it's going to dilute the quality of work over time. And if we're all doing it, it can have just what I call the great dilution.

Welcome to the Undefeated Underdogs Podcast, where I unpack and narrate stories of ambitious people who turn obstacles into opportunities. My goal for this podcast is to create a platform to narrate underdog stories and maybe play a small, teeny tiny role in inspiring you. I intend to highlight the underdog mentality and make authentic conversations with people who play the long game, take action with a chip on their shoulder, and convert obstacles into opportunities. Buckle up as I'll be bringing some authentic founders, VCs, community builders, and content creators who got underestimated their whole lives. And yet they beat all the odds to become insanely successful. Now today, I want to tell you a little bit about our awesome sponsor, acquire.com. Selling a business is as tough as building a business. As someone who went through this process once, selling my own startup, I know the pain it takes to get to the end zone. This is where our sponsor shines. Imagine this, you're a founder who's built a solid SaaS product and acquired customers and generating consistent monthly revenue. The problem is you're not growing for, for whatever reason— lack of focus, lack of skill, or just plain lack of interest— and you feel stuck. What should you do? The story I'd like to hear is you buckle down, somehow reignited the fire, get past yourself and the clichés, and start working on your business rather than just in the business. You start building an audience, move out of your comfort zone to do sales and marketing, and in 6 months you triple your revenue. The reality isn't as simple. Situations may be different for every founder facing this crossroads, but too many times the story ends up being one of inaction and stagnation until the become business— the business becomes less valuable or worse. Worthless. If you find yourself here or your story is likely headed down a similar road, I offer you a third option. Consider selling your business on acquire.com. Capitalizing on the value of your time is a smart move. Acquire.com is free to list and they've helped hundreds of founders already. Go to try.acquire.com/sharath and see for yourself if this is the right option for you. Now let's get into today's episode. Everyone is riding the AI wave. Most of us know that. And most people who are not building startups worry about AI taking, getting self-aware with AGI and everything. But what if AI helps us humans become self-aware? That would be a great world to live in, right? My next guest, Chris Spader, unlocked this insight and built a journaling app that actually helps you improve mental health. It's kind of having a therapist in your pocket. That's what I would do. I would describe it. Rosebud is not Chris's first rodeo. Chris is a veteran founder who's built more than 5 startups before, went to YC, sold companies, did a bunch of things. The products he built reached over more than 15 million people. He mastered finding users, doing growth for consumer products. Chris, thanks for doing this. I'm really, really excited. Welcome to the show. How are you feeling?

Good. Off to a good start today and off to a better start with you. So thanks for having me.

Awesome. That's great to hear. Yeah, that's what I love to hear from guests. You know, that's the first thing I'd ask, how are you feeling? And they're like, positively, I get the aura, I can feel it. So I'm feeling this.

We do it every Monday with our team. That's the first thing is like, how are you feeling? Because we want to check in with how people are doing.

Yeah,

so I recognize that.

And so I have to tell you this, I've been journaling for more than 5 years now. I've tried pen and paper. I use— I used to use this, uh, I still use the, uh, I use Rosebud as well, but I still use this 5-Minute Journal app that Tim Ferriss suggested. Uh, that's been something that I've been doing, that, you know, like documenting I have to tell you, Rosebud is kind of different.

For sure.

Yeah, it's so different because it's— first thing, it doesn't feel like a, like something like a journal app. It's much more beyond that because it's kind of like I said, it's more of like a therapist. You can talk to him, the app, like a person. It replies back, it remembers the context, it asks contextual questions. So I felt— I just want to put this out— I felt like all, all the journaling I did prior to Rosebud felt one way, meaning,

right,

I show up, it's on me, I have to be accountable, it's on me, and I have to write these things, it's on me. Yeah. But with Rosebud, it's like really having like a buddy, you know? It's like it prompts, it's like kind of gives the nudge and asks questions. So it felt very two-way. It's like, I, it doesn't feel like a, like a job anymore. I think journaling needs to feel like a job.

Yeah.

And I think that's what you guys have unlocked. And one fun fact before we dive into the conversation. So I was, I was in this meetup a few days ago and we were chatting about everything like AI and everything. And this guy I'm talking to, randomly brought Rosewood, like out of nowhere. And he went on a monologue for 5 minutes, like really like went—

A good one, I hope.

Yeah, it's really good one. That's what— and he started like talking about the impact it made, the questions like he's getting every day. It's the AI is improving over time and helping him improve over time. And I felt like I candidly asked, like, can you give a video testimonial or even audio testimonial? Because I'm actually interviewing the founder on Friday. I want to show you, but of course, like, for private, you know, privacy reasons, I didn't do that. It would be— it's actually dope to hear someone especially mentioning Rosebud out of the wild. And I think you must have gotten that quite a lot. So first thing I want to ask is, again, how are you feeling? building something around mental health. I have a lot of questions around mental health and, you know, I take it seriously as well. Yeah. How are you feeling like building this company, which is quite stressful because startups are hard, but at the same time you're building something that's so useful for human beings?

Yeah, it's a good question. I think what we were talking about earlier about it, you know, we both have young, you know, less than 12-month-old kids, there's a certain amount of— how do you feel about your kid, right? No matter what they do, no matter what happens, there's always this deep sense of purpose and a longevity to the relationship and everything. I think the same thing applies when you're working in something related to mental health. There's just a bottomless pit of inspiration and motivation because we're really trying to help people and we're seeing the impact of that. So, no matter how things are going, that's always there. So, it feels good. The challenge, I think, as you were saying, is how do you balance being a startup with knowing everything you know about mental health and everything that you're helping people with? How do you enforce that and uphold that for yourself while we're still trying to push and say, okay, we got to ship, we got to ship, we got to keep moving. We have to survive as a business. So, there is this kind of interesting duality there. I remind myself of that all the time and try to use the journal when things are stressful, but it still exists. And I don't know if I've cracked it just yet, but I do think about that and I'm aware of it, especially how we encourage our team members and We always tell people to take care of themselves first. You know, it might be different at other startups and, you know, maybe that means we won't, you know, be like the next Elon Musk or what have you in the way we run our businesses. Yeah. But the reason we pivoted to this in the first place was to be aligned with our values. And I think it's really important to first start with being aligned with what you're doing in the world and why it's there. Before this, we took a— we initially started working with around technology for social wellbeing. We wanted to build an alternative to social media that was actually positive, had a positive impact on your relationships. And we realized we actually didn't end up wanting to work in social. And we took kind of a detour around NFTs because we were excited about like the positive vibes in the community and all that and got kind of swept up into it. And then over time, we started to realize what the real core values of the community and the space was. And we realized, hey, this really isn't aligned with who we are, and we're not going to be able to do a good job. We're probably not going to be happy being in this space. And that's what led us to kind of come back to home base and focus on something that's going to make a positive impact on people. And I think it's super important.

Yeah, I think absolutely, because I think it's beyond just having an app. It's actually, I think it's a necessity right now, given the atmosphere, the environment around what we do on a regular basis. It's getting toxic day by day, week over week, month over month, whatever it is. Like, you know, we can blame politics, we can blame like a bunch of other things, but I feel we need a companion And most people are lonely, right? I think that's what the thread is right now going on in tech is with this, you know, physical hardware product like Limitless, even like friend.com. They're like also kind of going after the same path of finding a companion in AI. So, which is also weird at the same time, we need more human connection right now.

Yeah.

I

have

thoughts on that. Yeah. Yeah. Curious on that, like, how are you kind of differentiating Rosebud to these platforms or products that have been kind of on the same thread? And what is something that you feel that Rosebud is going to empower more as human beings?

Yeah, so I'm actually generally against AI companionship for the reasons that you mentioned. I think human connection is really important. And there are a lot of blockers to human connection. And that's why we go to therapy. That's why we have coaching. That's why we have relationship coaches, because we have to learn how to work through those blocks that we have internally, the things that we've experienced in our upbringing, our traumas that prevents human connection. So I think AI as an escape away from connection is not good. It's not overall for the general good in the long term. So the way that we look at Rosebud is that we want to really have it be about having a relationship with yourself. And Rosebud is more of a guide to help you have a discussion with yourself. I think to some extent, therapy is supposed to be that. Of course, there's still the human component and you're going to have a relationship with your therapist and you're going to have trust issues that might come up. There's human dynamics that you can't always avoid, right? But with Rosebud, we aspire, I don't know if we've nailed it yet, to just be kind of out of the way and help you kind of self-reflect and be kind of a mirror for you rather than someone that you build like a relationship and a dependency on, right? It's really important that that doesn't happen. We want to equip, we want Rosebud to help equip you to have the tools and the resources to show up in the real world Have healthy relationships with people in your life, overcome challenges perhaps in private on your own such that you can eventually become confident enough to talk about it openly. For me, 10 years ago, I might have been probably going through a lot of different things and sharing openly is scary. And the more I did it, eventually I think I came to the realization I just need to be myself fully, say what's on my mind. say I'm feeling, not worrying how much, how it's going to make other people feel. Because I think ultimately, if you put the energy out into the world, your true energy, that it's going to kind of navigate and gravitate towards this kind of more symmetrical or reciprocal energy. So, you find people that are more like you and you're more likely to get along with and find your tribe, right? Yeah. kind of hiding within yourself, you have a lower likelihood of finding that. So, from our own experience with therapy, coaching, our group of friends that are very personal growth-oriented, we had the, I'd say, fortune of having a lot of these eye-opening experiences through kind of being open, vulnerable, self-reflective. So, we recognize the power of that, and that is what we want to facilitate with Rosebud is teaching you about yourself. And then we're going to be launching some exciting stuff in the next few months, but also on teaching you mental models and giving you the tools and frameworks to help you, that work for you, to help you learn how to navigate the world and name your experiences. So ultimately you can connect more meaningfully with friends and loved ones.

I'm really excited to see what you're going to ship next because I think at this point you've done so much already, at least in my opinion. The features of the app is already rich, mature, uh, you know, the AI, the questioning it's doing is really on, on spot. Uh, it's reading my kind of, I wouldn't say my mind, but at least the context, right?

Mm-hmm.

Uh, so I, I want to talk in detail about Rosewood, but I, I want to go back to 2007, you know, and when you've built, you know, Flego. Yeah. The whole Y Combinator experience, you know, that was, I think, first-time founder going to YC. And you've done so much shit. It's like so much, you know, I couldn't like, you know, there's so, there's so much I need to ask, but we only have an hour or so. But you've built so many successful products, especially mobile-first, right? So I'm curious, where did you find the love for mobile-first apps? You would have done many things. So why mobile-first and why are you still sticking to it even till today?

Yeah, that's a good question. Um, because I've been building like websites and quote-unquote apps since I was 13. So there's a long period of time where everything was web-based. Um, and I think it was, yeah, 2007 must of course is around when the iPhone came out. And so we had a website called Fligo that we went through YC with, and it was a video sharing platform. This was back before YouTube had recommendations or analytics or anything. And we wanted to create a platform where every day you would be guaranteed to be entertained. So we'd show you like 3 to 5 videos that you'd be guaranteed to like. And That was around 2008 too. So it was a recession. And like, I mean, I was young. I had no idea what that meant. I didn't realize it was a hard time to raise money, but we had a hard time raising money. In fact, we went to Sequoia, I think, and they had said, oh, I think I could see this being a $500 million business. That's not big enough for us. And I'm like, really? That sounds pretty good. So we were struggling to raise money. We were like $25K in the bank. And the iPhone had just come out. And so we started to do, we pivoted to Twitter video sharing. So it's an app called, or site called Twitvid, because you couldn't upload videos to Twitter. And so we let you upload videos to Twitter. And I'm getting to how like this ultimately led to mobile. And it was around that time, because I think people started using Twitter on their mobile phones. It came, the idea came up of what if you could see all of your friends' photos on your camera roll? Like, you just give each other access and you can see everyone's camera rolls. Wouldn't that be interesting? So I think it was because of the camera and the intimacy perhaps of that that made that idea appealing and interesting. So that's when we kind of pivoted to building Vidly and then ultimately Treehouse, which was a mobile photo sharing app. Which Kevin Systrom will tell you inspired Instagram.

Yeah, it was Instagram before Instagram.

Yeah, yeah. Bittersweet feelings about that. Actually, I don't know anymore reading all those books about social media, but at the time, you know, for us it was about intimate photo sharing between friends. And the difference was Instagram had like the follow graph. They had Jack Dorsey posting, you know, the Hipstamatic style filters and driving like demand, like, I want this, I want this. And so when Instagram launched, ultimately, we couldn't compete and Google approached us for an acquisition. So I think, yeah, the mobile app, aside from the intimacy aspect, I think also I enjoyed as a designer, the constraints that it creates because you have to be really thoughtful about what you put on the screen and how the flows work. Because when you have a website, it's massive. Like you just have a sea of space and you can do whatever you want. Landscape is huge. The landscape is huge. Yeah. So as a designer, I really enjoyed that constraint. And I think in retrospect too, with the App Store launching back then, it was definitely a golden period where you launch a new app and you get all the attention in the world. So I think intuitively back then, that was a draw. Now you launch an app, people will say, oh, I don't need another app on my phone. It's a very different environment. Today. But for Rosebud, particularly, this is a big decision for us, was that we started as a website because we wanted to validate the idea. And we can talk more about this later, but our approach of just rapid development and hypothesis-driven development, we try to go to the easiest way. How do we put the least amount of effort in to get a sufficient amount of information to help us decide whether or not we should be moving forward with this? Because time is more valuable now than it was when I was 23. I want to be more precise. Yeah. So we started a website and I think over time we saw some of the headwinds of trying to gain distribution on web only. And over the course of the year, we built more conviction around the hypothesis that being in the App Store would give us more organic distribution because we think people are searching for Rosebud in the App Store. We have users giving us feedback saying, I would use this if it was an app. Let me know when it comes out. It was the number one feature request amongst our users. So we had enough confidence, but again, it's a big bet. It took us 5 months to build it again. We started from the ground up, had an opportunity to, again, be in the mobile format, like really think about it from the first principles of mobile, the mobile format. And we launched it just in August and it was the right decision. Like our hypothesis came true, or was proven true. Organic distribution is much higher than we had actually organically and scaled back any paid advertising we were doing. So happy to be back here, although I know some people still like to type on their computers. So we're aware of that and we'll have to balance that demand going forward with a small team.

I love that. I think just to summarize, you're more on the philosophy of less is enough. And I think less is enough is more relatable to mobile than web because web, like you said, you can do anything you want, right? That's the worst beef. You do anything you want. So, uh, I love that. I love that at least the reasoning, uh, behind picking mobile. Yeah. Building. So one, one of the things which is kind of like a, like a trend in your career is all consumer. It's always consumer, consumer, consumer. Like people, human beings, right? And it's so hard to build a consumer app back in 2007 when it's new. Even now it's crowded. It's always tough. And most people suggest that don't do it because, you know, there are so many risks towards it. But yet you found like a way to become successful or like, yet you kind of like figured out how to reach organic growth in that sense. So. Yeah. Talk to me about like why consumer, right? Weren't, did you explore other, like, you know, arenas like B2B, uh, building for businesses, building for enterprise, and you've kind of landed on consumer because is there a, is there a, uh, psychological reason going after consumer?

Yeah, that's a good question. I don't think it's been necessarily a conscious choice. But if I had to think about it, I think being in the consumer space, it feels a lot more creative. It feels a lot more connected to unlimited possibilities. Whereas when you're doing business in B2B, you're solving very specific problems and it's a sales game, business development relationship game. I'm more of a creative person. I build because I love to build. Another thing I've done is I've produced music for— I took a hiatus from tech for 4 years, became a music producer, released like an album and all this stuff. I just love the creative process. And same with music. It's like the possibilities are kind of endless and you're not doing it necessarily for a business goal. You're exploring the stars, exploring things that have never been done before is really exciting for me. That's kind of like with Treehouse mobile photo sharing, it's like MMS just came out and it was very exciting to think about, whoa, I can teleport exactly what I'm seeing right now to anybody. It's like never been done before. That's exciting. I don't immediately think like, well, what's the business use case for this? Yeah. That's kind of where my head naturally goes. And I think to build really great consumer products, there has to be that element of passion and creating novelty because consumers love novelty, right? We all want to have experiences that we've never had before. And it doesn't always have to be tied to business outcomes. So it's very personal, which makes it more Fun. And I don't know, like, you connect with people, I guess, through that. Or solving business problems. Yeah, I mean, you connect with people, but it feels a little bit more rigid. I know it's a lot more lucrative, but again, going back earlier in the conversation, what do you really value? And make sure you're working in line with your values. That's— I think Steve Jobs says, like, you can only do great work if you love what you do. And for consumer, I think it's just about the creativity and the connection with real people about their real lives.

And yeah, I want to like ask a couple of follow-ups there. As a creative, right, and I totally agree, I feel it's a white blank paper. Whatever you draw, you can draw. And there is no restrictions because at the end of the day, you are a consumer too. That's what you expect. And I feel one of the reasons most people, I love consumer products, you know, I've tried to build consumer products as well. And the reason is you can build it for yourself because you're a consumer. The first customer yourself is, you know, in you, right? So there are like a wide variety of reasons for consumer, but as a, the answer I was very fascinating as a creative approaching consumer from a creative angle, right? Who did you inspire mostly from when it comes to, especially from design, building personal experiences in consumer apps? Is there like a North Star, someone you look up to that you refer to like going back and forth again and again, even today as you build Rosebud?

That's a good question. When I was, I think the one designer who I've written about before. So I worked at a company called Vrbb or Pure Volume way back in the day. I think Vrbb was one of the first to put a like button before Facebook. And up until then, I was really just like a front-end kind of web developer. I didn't really have an opinion yet about design. And I worked next to this designer, Tyson. Rossage, and that's when I learned about like rounded rectangles and more about padding and white space, and just like kind of watching how you design things influenced me a lot back then. And I think that kind of turned me onto it. Since then, I always try. I'd always tried to be more original, like with with designs. So I would spend same with music. Like I'd spend time just trying to create something different, and sometimes like music it just doesn't sound good or it looks. stupid. So I've also learned to look for inspiration elsewhere. So I don't know if there's one particular person now. I like to get a broad set of perspectives. And so I'll look at Dribbble, I'll look at other apps in the space to see what do I not like that they do? What do I like that they do? But yeah, nowadays, as it comes to design, for me, it's a lot more about information architecture and user flows than it is necessarily about the visual aesthetic. Making sure that the experience is seamless, that it's delightful, that things are where they would expect you to be, where you would expect them to be. I think that comes a lot from experience and really using things. And that's where the joy comes, or the craft. So, I don't have as many inspirations now, and I'm kind of like trying to wander off on my own path to discover things again that had like never been done before. I will shout out Ben Lee, our designer at Secret. Hmm. So, when I designed Secret, I mean, that was just a lot of late nights, wine, and and THC that would send us on like these journeys of discovery. And that was just so exciting and fun to like try to— it's like, how do you design an anonymous social network? Like, there are no profile pictures, right? There's no examples of how to do this, right? So you just got to explore. And I tried like— It's all new. Yeah, it's all new. So I was like, well, what if you put like a colored circle in a number and it's like everyone gets a different number and color? Like, it's like, no, this looks like Google Maps, like, or the New York subway. This doesn't look good. And then I had happened to download an icon pack for something else, and I noticed that it had these little characters in it, like an owl and an octopus and stuff. And I was like, oh shit, this is it. So I put it in. Yeah. And then like you get that feeling of euphoria, like this idea has never been done before. I feel a little tingle now just remembering that. Like those are the moments that I love and I look for. And I like, as if that's not happening with what I'm working on, I get frustrated. I get like, I feel like I want to go back to a space where I can have that kind of creative exploration. And AI definitely has unlocked that, I think, for a lot of people now of like, whoa, there's all these things we can do that have never been possible before. Like, let's, let's just try all these different things. And I think that's why it's such an exciting time. And it's also wildly different than the Web3 wave because I think this is actually like has mass consumer appeal, mass business appeal. So it's just a tsunami right now.

Yeah, yeah, for sure. And as a designer, right, one of the things I want to talk especially about you, Chris, being a designer versus Chris being a founder and Chris being a CEO. Those two are different personas, at least as someone who's looking from outside. So who's running the show? Is it Chris, the designer? that runs Rosebud, or is it Chris, who's the business mind tackling revenue, worrying about growth? You know, yeah, what's like your— is it like bipolar? Like, I'm curious about the personas.

Yeah, that's a funny question. I think it definitely changes. Like when we were— our runway was decreasing and we weren't growing as much as we thought we needed to, then we're much more focused on the business side of things. How do we cut, burn? What are really the most important strategic opportunities for us to invest in right now? And my co-founder, Sean, is also very much of that mind, very strategic. And so There are times where we spend a lot of time thinking about that. But now, for example, that the app is growing more organically, I'm back in the designer engineer role where like I, last weekend I opened 5 PRs for the team, like pushing forward all these things that we've been really excited about. And I definitely feel more alive when I'm doing this, when I'm being the creative and driving it. And I think it— It inspires the team to see things moving forward, to see the creativity. It kind of lights them up to explore things as well. And I also want to plug Claude as a designer is really powerful. That's been a big unlock for us lately. We can talk more about that. But yeah, those 2 roles, I think, go back and forth. And I think in my heart of hearts, I believe that the product, the designer, the creative in me is the most important of those kind of roles to making something special and unique. Just from the track record of my own life, those moments of being inspired and pursuing this stuff is what always led to good outcomes. It wasn't like necessarily a business strategy. It was following intuition, passion, and creativity. So I think that's why I get frustrated. It's like, if that person's not able to show up and really spread his wings, um, then I don't think we're gonna soar, to build on that analogy,

uh,

to new heights.

And, uh, I'm sure, I think you, you must have like dry moments as a designer or a creative, right? It's like sometimes we just feel we're out of ideas, we're out of like some of the things that we do on a regular basis. It won't click, it won't turn on.

Yeah.

How do you refuel yourself, like on a habits perspective or even from a mental health perspective? How do you reset and come back again, feel fresh? Do you have any I wouldn't necessarily ask for frameworks per se, but any habits that you form over the years that really helped?

Definitely. Yeah, there are times where we're stuck or, yeah, let's call it stuck creatively. The best things to do for me are take a break, right? So maybe I'll take a weekend off and not think about work at all. I do strongly believe that our body subconsciously processes challenges and problems and sometimes Sometimes you just need time for it to do a deeper churn. It's not coming from here, it's coming from here. So, I play piano and I was learning as an adult. I started at 34. And there are times where I'd be trying and playing and playing and playing so much and I'm not able to hit it or do it well. And then, I go on vacation for a week and then I came back and I could play better than when I was really banging my head against it. Yeah. So I've seen other examples of this in my life where if you take space, it allows the neurological pathways to form, right? Maybe it's like if you're firing them too much, like they can't expand until they settle, right? And then you can build from that foundation. Maybe there's some science behind that, but that's just my own experience. Now, with creative problems, I think Rick Rubin said this in his book, The Creative Act, which is great book, that as a creative, you kind of just, you need to be out in the world and you need to be picking up subtle cues. There's what people are doing, like what art is there? Like you're not even going to be looking at everything, but subconsciously, again, you're going to be collecting all of this information. And I think that's really important, especially for consumer apps. It helps build your intuition of, well, how would people react in this scenario of like a social app? Well, you have to tune into all the social cues you've observed in your life and synthesize those to answer that question. So yeah, if I'm stuck, I try to spend more time with people, catch up with other people. A lot of ideas come from the synthesis of other perspectives. So like in this conversation, you might say something in passing and I'm like, oh, whoa, that just like unlocked this thing I've been stuck on. It gave me a new way to look at it. So then I get excited to go and like, uh, explore that. Uh, so I think also brainstorming within the team. We have a practice called jam sessions where we have a particular problem or open idea space we want to explore, and we put all of our heads together and we just have a brainstorm for like 30 minutes or an hour. And you always, from that, we'll get a bunch of threads that we'll want to go and Like pursue. So putting your heads together, getting diverse perspectives, um, yeah, all of the— all of those things help a lot.

Love that. I think especially, uh, like exploring other people's minds is a great one because it— everybody thinks differently, and once you get introduced to someone else's thinking It feels so refreshing that there are like, I don't know, there is a psychological thing that, whoa, they think, thought in a different way. Let me think this, this way. I think it kind of seeds that thought in your mind. So yeah, I've experienced that, you know, a little bit before as well. Just talk to my grandma. So like, you know, not even people, someone in tech, like just talk to some—

Absolutely.

Yeah, just random people. Yeah, even better because they—

Different generations.

Exactly. So whenever I spoke to like my grandmother who's in India, she has a different set of problems which are like not even a problem for, you know, for me. So the way that she approaches is way, way different. And that's like, okay, resets that, you know, I'm not stuck in that, adds some sort of perspective. So yeah, that's a great one.

Yeah. And just to finish the comment on Claude, uh, This is a recent discovery we've had, is I actually have been using Claude to help essentially be my design partner. And I'll upload a bunch of data from like my journal or whatever and say, I'm thinking about how to like design this, or I'm thinking about how to design that. And then actually using artifacts will render a page, like call it a wireframe or a mockup, and then I'll like give it feedback. Wow. And so it fills that role of of the designer in terms of just being generative with ideas. Like, I wouldn't use it for verbatim or like the visual design or anything like that. It's more about the information architecture. And it, it's, it's that same thing. Like, whoa, I would have never, I would have never thought of that. And I think anyone who's creative, like, they're not generative on their own. They're really good at getting more perspectives and then like selecting the best aspects of it and like putting together something, right? So now my team members have started using it as well. So everyone on our team is what we call a product engineer. That's somebody who can identify, you know, product opportunity, write a hypothesis, do all of the product kind of manager work, come up with the wireframes and actually go build it and then build the dashboards to report on it. So everyone does like end to end. The thing is that not everyone, of course, is as skilled at every single step of the way. So now that Claude's here, I've seen it unlock the design thinking ability of the team because we're all tastemakers, right? As humans, I think what makes us different than AI is that we're actually able to have taste and select what is interesting and exercise our judgment. Mm-hmm. Again, in that context of all the subtle cues you're picking up on and like what you think would be interesting to the world. So now these engineers who may not be as good at design or being generative with design now can use Claude. And the things that they're presenting to the team now is an order of magnitude better and more inspiring because they're able to express themselves better as a result of having this thought partner. Right. So that's been really cool to see. And I think After seeing that, I think that designers are more at risk than engineers first, because we've needed a product designer. I do it, you know, but I, like you said, there's many hats that I wear, so I can't be everyone's product designer. And now this has kind of alleviated that pressure a little bit. We just found it though, so talk to me in a month and see if we still love it, but it's been a great breakthrough so far.

Yeah. It's very interesting. I think generally we— that's so funny that you mentioned you are relying on AI to get some perspective. It's like, I think you're going beyond assistance, right? Like, you know, assistance is more of like, hey, I have this question, get me some information.

Yeah, do the task.

Do the task, get back to me, report to me. That's it. But you're going kind of like a little bit more and like kind of getting that perspective is, uh, it's kind of like a new way to look at it. And I think, uh, having AI as a thought partner is really good compared to like an assistant, you know. Uh, I think there's something there. That's— there's some, some unlock. Uh, I don't know.

Yeah, absolutely. I think it is useful for that. Um, the— my concern, and I think some others share this concern is, to your point, like delegating the task is different than having a thought partner. And if you blur those lines, delegating critical thought and then just taking the output of the AI as it is without question, to me, is a risk to any business or people operating on that kind of information. So like in the beginning of AI, so our team, You know, I might have done this a little bit too, but they would say come up with a marketing plan and they would generate it using ChatGPT. And then I would say, this was generated by ChatGPT? And you're like, yeah. And I'm like, okay, well, what does it mean? Right? Because it seems completely like it lacks context that a human would have writing it about the business, about our goals and everything. And it felt like a little bit more generic. So then I, at that point occurred to me like, wow, if people are operating purely on this, it's going to dilute the quality of work over time. And if we're all doing it, it can have just what I call the great dilution, where everybody, smart people kind of come down to the level of AI. And then, you know, less smart people will rise, but then they have that as a crutch. And we're like now just operating purely on this somewhat synthetic data that's lacking context. And so it's really important, I think, not to delegate critical thought, but to your point, use it as a thought partner that can help give you perspective and help you think about things you might not have thought of. But it's still your job to do the consideration and to make the recommendation and be accountable for that. Otherwise, you're not going to learn because we learn by trial and error. Yeah. And if we're not making, if we're not having the embodied experience of making the decision from a place that we actually feel confident and we understand, it's much harder to learn afterwards because you're not familiar with the processes that led you to making those decisions. So you can't like update your own software and you're just delegating your internal software to this external software. So yeah, Now we, we ask people on the team, totally fine to use AI, but disclose it in your documents. Say I used AI for this part.

Yeah.

As a reader too. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I do have a question about like, how do you use AI on a regular basis? Like, you know, as a team? Yeah. I think you've kind of mentioned about, you know, A, thought partner, B is like more of like a designer. Anything else that You've been constantly, because I saw this ridiculous statement from Sundar Pichai, like recently.

25% of code. Yeah.

That's ridiculous. That's, that's a—

Yeah, that's what I, and I said, oh, that's why their software is so bad. Like, you ever tried to implement their AI, like Gemini? I was very interested in it, but like the dashboard and the way to get your API keys, it's such, it's like a labyrinth. You need Indiana Jones to figure out how to get your API key out of there. So people just don't use it as a result. Right. Yeah. So yeah, to answer that question, we also use it for code. As a senior engineer like myself with a lot of experience, it's super helpful. It makes it a lot faster. Though, again, there's risk in not checking the code that it writes. So like one time I think I used it to do some more like complex, like really detailed manipulation of some object or whatever. that then there was an error in. So when it was deployed to production, it actually caused some issues. And that was my lesson. I was like, okay, like I am going to really try to understand how things work and write more tests around these types of things. So we have to take it with a grain of salt. I think with Cursor now, like it's definitely getting better, but it's still like an idiot genius. It'll just do things wrong. And if you're not really paying attention to it, you'll have issues that will slip through the cracks. So I asked the team, if something was written by AI, I'm like, can you explain what this function does? Because I'm reviewing it now. I have to review it. And if you don't understand it, that's not fair to the reviewer, the code reviewer. But I'd say overall, it's definitely increased velocity. For me, I'm able to do Way more. And really just tackling tasks that, like engineering tasks that are kind of obvious. And it's, or like, I want you to refactor this and break it up in all the different files and all that. Now it's like Cursor Composer, you can do that. And that saves me so much time because of my own process, which ultimately leads to, I think, more maintainable code. So you just have to wield it correctly, similar to what we were saying with With the writing of like strategy documents. Now, this other interesting one is lawyers, very expensive. We've used AI a lot for legal stuff. I think I wouldn't recommend this to like young entrepreneurs, like be careful if you don't have a lot of experience yourself with having written contracts and whatnot. But, you know, we wrote a simple affiliate agreement like using And I've seen and signed a lot of contracts in my career, so I can, like, with a fair enough amount of confidence, feel like this is good enough for us. Whereas that would've cost us like $1,000, right? Or something with a lawyer. And so I wonder what that's going to do for the legal industry. I think it's still really important to work with lawyers when you're doing serious kind of documentation and something that can be backed up. But in terms of all the discovery work of, well, what is, what is, uh, what are the possibilities here? Like, what is the law around this and stuff like that? Definitely fact-check it. But that has saved us a lot of time and money. Yeah, I think those are the big, the big use cases.

Yeah, it makes sense. I think anything that's manual or anything that's expensive, need to outsource to AI, right? It's to put it short. And of course, like I think the default is use your own judgment. Don't like kind of totally trust what you're getting, the output.

100%. Yeah.

There is a filter. There is like a layer you need to add for everything that you've, you know, working with AI. So that is like a must, you know. Going back to consumer apps, consumer ideas, what advice do you give founders who are very passionate about consumer products on how do they find the right consumer idea? In your opinion, the, the downside of being a consumer founder, or at least building consumer apps, is you can do anything you want, right? Everything is a problem, everything needs a solution. So where do you put the line and say this is the right way to build a consumer idea, or at least in your experience building so many products before?

Yeah, well, like I was saying before, everything starts with what you personally value and That could extend to solve a problem that you have. It also then depends on your goals. So I think being clear about that can help reduce frustration and churn. So if your goal is, I want to build a billion-dollar business, or if your goal is, I just want to build something a lot of people love, those might not be mutually inclusive, right? Necessarily. And being honest with that upfront will help manage your own expectations and your relationship to the work, but it can also help manage expectations and relationship with your co-founder as well. So I'm starting here at the very first principles just from my own experience. That being said, when I was younger, I didn't think about that stuff and I just built what I was interested in. And so I still think there is merit to that. You don't need to be overly analytical about it, but it depends on, again, your goals. So if you're in your 30s and you're like, I really want to build something that generates revenue, it's like, okay, so that's a goal now that's going to really change how you evaluate the opportunities that you're considering. What size of business do you want? You can run it through that lens. And so Once you understand your goals, the next step is I have this pyramid of like building the right thing. The next step in the pyramid is the strategic, like what's the strategy and market positioning? So what market are you in and why are you going to, how are you going to get into that market? So with consumer, I mean, we're in the like journaling slash behavioral health market. And so we have to look at like, well, who's already in here? Because there's, there's a lot of competition now, like we were talking about, compared to back in the day, like when you're like the one of 2 journaling apps.

Mm-hmm.

So you really, I think, have to take time to consider what your position is, how big the market is. Does that meet your goals? Is this market aligned with your values? Is this something that you really want to invest your time and energy into? Now, looking at everyone, all the incumbents that are in here, how are you going to be different? Why are people going to use your product? What's your hypothesis there? And at this point, I think it's okay to be iterative if you're still figuring it out, but maybe you already have a strong idea because you're leaving a company and you understand the problem and you know exactly what you want to do. You know, at that point, you could probably already intuitively know some of this stuff, whereas others You may not have intuitive understanding yet, but you're interested. So it can help to do the analytical process to gain that perspective. So once you have your market and your positioning, then you go into, well, what is our first kind of strategic priority and move? So for us, like when we started with Rosebud, we said our strategic priorities are to be LLM first and to be first to market. So we believe, given this market, that this is the right way to approach this because incumbents might add AI, but it's going to be bolted on and they're probably going to take a little bit longer to do it because there's more bureaucracy in the companies. There might be new entrants that are coming in doing something similar. So that's why it's important for us to get to market first. So that, the way that that's impacted the way we've thought about it was we immediately Released something 4 days after building the prototype and started running Google Ads to it. Perfectionism out the window, like just get it out there, start getting feedback. And we've kind of incrementally built since then. And then as we prioritize features, we continue to focus on like, well, what can the LLM do specifically that can't be done or that's not in the market right now? Because if we're just going and copying journal features like, oh, you can add photos or you can do mood tracking and all these things that don't necessarily leverage the power of LLM. Like, let's deprioritize those things. So that's how we ended up picking that. So you get a sense of like how we pick what we work on. And so just to wrap it up, I think if you're building a consumer app, if you're building in social, that's different. Social, consumer social is different. You look at someone like Nikita who kind of continues to roll out a similar concept, proven formula that works. And maybe his goal is, I want to do this and I want to flip it for $10, $20 million, right? Like he knows that out the gate. And so he builds something that like caters to that. So in that case, he's aware like there's some monetization opportunities with micropayments, but also there's an acquisition strategy in mind. And it seems like that was very clear to him from the beginning. So I think getting clear on what your goals are, what your ideal outcomes are, and then figuring out what the type of product is and the dynamics of the market that will allow you to hit those outcomes in the timeline that you want. Knowing when to fold is another good thing. Hmm. I think setting Goals. Like when we were first building Rosebud, I was constantly looking for reasons to stop, like tell us that this isn't working. Like I want to fail as fast as possible if this isn't going to work. I don't want to like waste time. So we would set like revenue goals, engagement goals. And if we're like, if we miss 3 quarters in a row was like my internal thing that we would move on to something else. But we hit—

yeah, I love that. I think having aggressive goals will bring you the truth, right? This market won't bullshit you. That's, that's very clever. That's very, very clever. Instead of like you living in your own bubble and feeling good about yourself because you're building something, let the market decide. The way market decides is if you put aggressive goals and really pursue them. I think that's so clever. I don't know if you observed. That's a clever tactic to, you know, then it'll be like a 0 or 1. Either you fail or you win. Right. I love that.

Yeah. And, you know, aggressive depends. You don't want to set like unrealistic, unattainable goals. Certainly goals that make you feel a little bit uncomfortable. Like, I don't know if we're going to be able to do that.

Hmm.

And you'll get better at goal setting over time and it's going to become more— it'll be adjusted for reality. So over time, we would just set better goals and like, will we feel good about hitting this milestone? And then if we extrapolate out, do we run out of money if we continue to grow at this rate? So you start to get a sense of Where do you actually need to be to feel like you have a shot at— for us, our goal is to get to profitability, right? We'll be a profitable business. And so for that trajectory, what do we need to hit? And so we've been diligently tracking that every month, every week since we started.

I'd love to see that pyramid. Maybe you should put it into a picture.

Yeah, I have it. I tweeted about it once. I can share that with you. Yeah. And I also have a— I gave a the MVP of this talk at South Park Commons. So I'll share those with you and you can include them and do what you will.

Yeah, we'll put it in the show notes for people. So before we dive into Rosebud's conversation or like the, you know, deeper insights of Rosebud, you've raised so many millions of dollars, you know, in your whole career. Yeah, talk to me about fundraising versus bootstrapping. That's a new trend. that's been popping up, you know.

Yeah.

There is no right or wrong answer. I'm not asking which one is right. Rather than going there, in your experience, is there a— is there an insight about fundraising that you want to share with founders, especially early stage when they're just getting started? I think for people who've built companies before, going fundraising is— I think it's still tough, but it's not a big hard sell. For people who are just getting started, founders, Yeah. Any, I wouldn't necessarily, it's not an advice, but any insight, key insight that people are missing, founders are missing right now when they're fundraising, in your opinion?

I think the fundraising environment has changed drastically since the boom of 2007 to, or 2008, after that recovery to like basically the pandemic. So I think bootstrapping is becoming a lot more popular. And with the help of AI, depending on what you're building, like, you could really churn out these products with, like, less people. So I think you really need to be careful taking on money. I don't know how many founders realize what it means to raise money. When I was younger, it just felt like, oh, this is what you're supposed to do. It's like a form of validation. Hmm. And so, yeah, don't take fundraising as a form of validation is one insight. The impact of it is when you raise money, it creates expectations of the business, right? They're not unreasonable expectations. I'm not saying that investors are going to be breathing down your neck, but there is a certain game that's being played here. And the venture model is to return, you know, one, they're looking for that one unicorn that's going to return the fund 100x. And so as a result, you have to grow, like that's the expectation that you have to grow to 100x. So the other game that's being played is like, be mindful of your valuation. Like don't set your valuation as a form of validation or vanity metric because it's going to limit your— potentially your possibilities in the future. So if you're raising like $1 million and you're like, well, we want that $15 million valuation or whatever, well, when it's time to come to pay, whether someone's trying to acquire your business or you're looking to bring on more capital, that valuation is going to become a sticking point because let's say your performance of the business doesn't actually line up to the valuation. There might be nothing wrong with that if you hadn't raised money, but now if your existing investors are looking at a down round, they're not going to be necessarily happy about that. And depending on the terms of the deal, it could create problems. Whereas if you took a more reasonable, modest moderation— sorry, valuation— when you go out to raise that next round, maybe it's slightly an up round, or it just helps manage the business side of things. So I think those things are really important to be thoughtful about. And Depending what you're building, like if your business is not capital intensive, don't raise money, like get traction, prove the trajectory of the business. And then once you have some evidence that we have a repeatable and scalable formula here, now let's actually model out what it means to take on investment. So if we brought in $2 million, what does that mean we can do? And can we project revenue growth? And investors are going to love that too, to say like, oh, this is more of a quote unquote sure thing. nothing's ever sure, but there's a higher likelihood that this is actually going to work out. So the investment feels more aligned. And if your business though is capital intensive, raising money might be necessary, but I don't know if investors always necessarily love capital intensive businesses that haven't been proven in traction. So whatever it is that you can do to Validate and prove that traction so you can raise the right round of capital is important. So like Rosebud, we had raised initially for a seed around a mission that we were working on. And then when we pivoted into the NFT thing, we raised more money. So now we're in a scenario where, you know, we're not in a position to raise more money, nor do we want to. Our goal is to get profitable. But if we hadn't raised this capital and we had bootstrapped Rosebud, it would be a very different situation where maybe a seed round could make sense given the cap table and all of that. So you do have to carry the weight of those decisions and you want to balance the interests of the investor, your community, the founders, and your team. And the more complicated your cap table is and the more, you know, if you're raising without being thoughtful, like those things could come to bite you later if you raise the wrong type of round. Yeah. So I don't know if that's insightful, but that's some of my learnings over the past, recently even considering this stuff.

No, no, no. Appreciate you. Appreciate you for sharing them. Speaking about VC, You went to YC like long, long, long ago. I think Garry Tan is your batch partner back then.

Yeah.

2-part question. One is part A, yeah, how did— of course the obvious one is how did YC change, you know, you as a founder in that, you know, what kind of impact YC made? And B, why didn't you go back to YC? You've built so many things in between now and 2007. Any reason that you didn't go back? to YC again?

It's a good question. I'll say that I think YC is a no-brainer. Like, the— it's not really like a typical VC type of deal. You know, it's much cleaner, some percentage for enough money, right, to really bootstrap something, quote unquote, like bootstrap in that you're starting with less money and you're able to grow and still have space Um, for, to take on more investors and all of that. So, plus all the education and everything you get.

Also, I'm curious, uh, this was, now I think YC offers like what, somewhere around like $500K, something like that. There is a $375K, something like that.

Yeah.

But back then it was very less, right? Like, yeah, it was $15K. Wow. Oh my God. Times have changed.

We got $15K for, I think at the time it was like 6 or 7%. Still a no-brainer for us back then. It made it harder in 2008 when we went out to like, you know, we moved to San Francisco and we literally had like 3 months of money in the bank account. It was very different. So now that they have it nice, like $500K, great amount of money to start with. And with the support network of YC, and it's going to open a lot of doors for you. It's going to connect you with a great community of people. For me, it was definitely one of the most life-changing experiences. Gary was actually in my batch. So we were in Boston and I had never been surrounded by people that were like me that love to build. And maybe it's different now that it's a lot more common to have hackers and entrepreneurs than it was back then. But that was a major change, turning point in my life to feel accepted, to feel connected, and to just be able to do what I love all the time surrounded by people doing the same thing. So that aspect is irreplaceable. Why I didn't do it again is a good question. Like when we built Secret, we kind of launched it and it blew up. And I was, I'm still very closely connected with people in YC. I live in LA now, so maybe that was like with this company, part of it as well is like the distance. Now, certainly having kids, like, I don't know, maybe Gary has thoughts on like what their protocol program is around that, but like time constraints have just changed. But when I did it, I was 23 and it was kind of like my version of college. So, You know, if you're looking for your community, if you're looking for a chance to do what you love, it's really just a no-brainer.

I would love to see if Gary can do something for parents like us. You know, that's one of the hardest things to leave your family for 3 months, you know, and I know it's so life-changing for sure, but I feel some of the people who have kids who are starting, who still want to like, there is still fuel in their tank, want to go to YC, they're like, you know what, it's— I can't go. But now let's—

Yeah, if you can figure out child— like childcare and— So

many things.

Yeah, great.

Yeah, yeah, uh, yeah, I'm just— a couple more questions on Rosebud, you know. Uh, so you've done video sharing apps, photo sharing, consumer social, social wellness, now mental health. So that's quite a journey, and I think that's a leap. Right. Talk to me about the path you paved. Yeah, that's what I want to understand. Like, talk to me about the path that paved to where you are right now from the 2007 Chris. What's like, how did you evolve as a founder and why Rosebud? Why mental health right now?

I think the through line has always been around helping people connect more authentically. Like there's something about authenticity and vulnerability wrapped up in all of it. So whether it's photo sharing with friends more intimately, whether it's sharing anonymously what's really going on for you and being able to connect with people you know around those topics. The social wellness was the same. Like, we built an app that lets you put your friends on your home screen. And there's another app called Locket that did this 6 months after us that blew up because they're much better at marketing. And they're like top in the App Store. And We, we, I still use that because it helped me feel closer to like loved ones. And then we built another app that's like a social phone that helps you stay in touch with people because as you get older, like, how do you remember to get on a call and catch up with someone? So we built an app that does that and reminds you and then shows you, takes like conversation log and shows you what you shared last time and make it easier to like stay connected. So there's always been This through line of authenticity. And I think journaling is no different in that it's helping you connect more authentically with yourself, as we talked about earlier, to help you ultimately connect better in the world. So all of it has, I think everything we do has some mental health component in life, right? You might explicitly say this is mental health, But what we would choose to work on, who we choose to spend time with, the inner dialogue we have in our own head, our relationship with ourself, our relationship with our parents, like everything is really rooted in mental health. And it's deeply entwined with physical health, emotional health, spiritual health, and all of that. But I think social really is mental health at the end of the day.

And did you start Rosebud keeping AI in mind, or is it like something that naturally occurred to you and you want to like marry, you know, being in, being present and using AI as in like 2 different things? AI is more futuristic and what you're building is reminding people to be present, right? So is that always like something that you married accidentally, or it was like an intention from the beginning of Rosebud?

Well, it actually started because I had just taken this 1-week retreat in the middle of Colorado by myself in a cabin, like thinking about making some big decisions about life. And one of them was to stop working on NFT space. And so while we were figuring out what to do, I wanted to cultivate my life force as Stutz from the movie Stutz, the therapist said, where you just focus on your basic needs and getting those in order and everything else will follow. So, I picked up a journaling habit. My fiancée journals every night for 6 years, 7 years now without missing a day. So, I was always intrigued by that. So, I started doing it every night and I started with a Sahil Bloom's like 1-1-1 method. And then I also tried the Rosebud Thorn method, which is where the name Rosebud comes from, where you say like one thing that went well, like what was one thing that stressed you out? What's, you know, one thing that you're looking forward to or grateful for? And so I was doing that every day in my Apple Notes. And around that time, like ChatGPT was blowing up and the APIs are open. And that's when We got curious, like, hey, if you're journaling, like, could AI help you identify your own patterns and help you learn about yourself? And so that's what led to building this very first simple prototype, which was like 3 boxes, like, you know, what's your highlight, what's your rose, what's your thorn, and what's your bud? Very simple. And then it would ask you some follow-up questions after you submit your entry. That's how it started. And it wasn't like a master plan. It was just some 2 things that we were interested in and like mashing them up together around a vision. And the rest is history.

Yeah, the rest is history. And where do you want to go next with the recent developments? You know, everybody's going crazy about building new models. Meta has a model, OpenAI has a model cloud. Like so many things are happening in this space that we can't keep up on. And yeah,

we're all benefiting from that.

Yeah, of course. You know, we're all getting better as builders as well.

Cheaper, better. Yeah.

Cheaper, faster. And yeah, what we're trying to do with Rosebud with the aligning with the future of AI, what's like, if you put, if you want to paint a picture in this space, how would that look like?

So we definitely don't want— we're not competing on the model, foundational model level. Like, we continue to benefit from that. But we're— what you're seeing with Rosebud has barely scratched the surface of what we want to do with it. There's a lot more coming. I think we're finally getting into position product and technically to be able to start doing some of this. And also the model's getting faster and cheaper and all that's going to help. So Rosebud will become a place that you're not only going to be able to just journal every day, but you'll have these custom-tailored programs that are built for you to help you learn about not just yourself, but about all of the models and the philosophies in the world and how it can apply to your life. So we're going to be generating content that is personalized to you that can help you on your journey. I don't want to say mental health journey because everyone has their own journeys going on. And the thing that AI unlocks is the ability to build a unique experience for every single individual depending what their focuses are. So Rosebud will become an app that is dynamically rendered, let's say. So the AI will be building the interface for you is kind of the long-term vision, and it will be giving you the right tools at the right time, and it's going to be completely rendered by AI. And that is what has never been possible before. We're just taking this personalization power of Rosebud. Hmm. giving it some steroids and putting it in the hands of people. So this will become your one-stop shop for personal growth, development, and reaching your own personal goals.

Yeah. Therapists in your pocket. Yeah.

Well, I will say we're definitely not trying to replace therapists and we're explicitly a journal for that reason. And a lot of therapists love Rosebud and they see it as a complement to their practice. They They see it as, we just actually published an article about this, but how you can use Rosebud in conjunction with therapy. So people are taking their weekly reports, they're sharing it with their therapists, and then they're getting more out of the sessions, right? Because we still, again, Rosebud is about equipping you to have more meaningful interpersonal interactions. And one therapist is also an important interpersonal relationship. Yes. So the goal is not to be the therapist, but the goal is to be your own inner voice that teaches you about who you are and teaches you about what the mental models are of the world that you can apply to your situation to help you reach your goals.

Yeah, I love that. So fascinating. And I'm super excited, Chris. I think for Rosebud, the future for you, and I think you're going to do wonders for sure for people on a personal level, on an intimate level. And that's what I feel technology should be helpful of, which is helping really people on a day-to-day basis. And I think Rosebud is going to do that. Any closing thoughts before we wrap up? It's been a fantastic conversation. I loved All in all.

Yeah, no, thank you very much for, for putting this together and asking interesting questions. I enjoyed it and look forward to tuning in.

But yeah, that's it, folks. Appreciate you for tuning in, listening to people like Chris, founders like Chris, you know, and, you know, there's some awesome founders on the lineup and stay tuned. But thanks again. Cheers.

All right. Thanks. Bye-bye.