51: Feel Dismissed by Doctors? – The Truth About Root-Cause Healing & Empowerment with Dr. Jill Carnahan

If we're traditionally in the insurance system, we're constantly, and you know this as well, fighting with the company to say, my patient needs this. And the business person on the other end will say, well, they don't really need that, and who are they to make a medical decision? But all day long, maybe 50% of our time is spent fighting with the bureaucracy of what's covered and what's not covered. And I wanted nothing to do with that.

Welcome back, everybody. I'm super excited to be with my friend and colleague here, Jill Carnahan. She's an awesome functional medicine practitioner, a leader in the thought space, and she has an amazing, compelling story. So after we go through the introduction so you all can get to know her a little bit, we'll just kind of dive right into it. Dr. Jill completed her residency at the University of Illinois in Family Medicine at Methodist Medical center and received her medical degree from Loyola University Stritch School of Medicine, Chicago. She received her bachelor degree in science and bioengineering at the University of Illinois. Dr. Jill is dual fully board certified in family medicine and integrative holistic medicine and she founded the Methodist center for Integrative Medicine in Pure Illinois in 2009. Dr. Jill is a survivor of both breast cancer and Crohn's disease and she is super passionate about teaching patients how to live well and thrive in the midst of complex chronic illness. She has an amazing story which we're actually going to dive into today. She's also a widely sought after inspirational speaker, travels around the world, travels all over the place, lecturing physicians like myself. She's a prolific writer and she's been all over the place. She's been on Shape magazine Parade, Forbes, Mind Body, Green Townsend newsletter, a whole host of things. She's recently co authored the personalized and precision integrative cardiovascular medicine textbook and a prescriptive memoir actually came out in 2021. So Dr. Jill, super excited to have you here today and just talk with you and share your story.

Thank you. Dr. Hartman, it is absolute pleasure to be here.

Yeah, I want to start, you know, I first met you actually it was in Switzerland actually a couple several years ago with my wife. And just kind of being with you for a week, hearing your story, your passion, also getting to know you personally, I was really struck by. You're not, you're someone who hasn't just, it's not just smart and, you know, learn the stuff. But you, you have a story. You've got heart behind the mind. Could you just walk us through Briefly, like medical school, like, you know, just kind of walk through some of your health, your health issues and kind of how you were confronted early on in your training with a need to find a different path to help yourself get better.

Yeah. So I grew up on a farm in central Illinois. I was one of five children. Wonderful, idyllic. Norman Rockwell is kind of placed. And unbeknownst to me, some of the chemicals and things that I was exposed to, maybe even in utero, maybe even back that far, were slowly killing me. I had no idea. I lived a wonderful life as a child. I did have allergies and asthma and some pretty significant in hindsight, probably mast cell issues, but other than that, overall healthy. And I did also didn't know I was a healer, but I knew I wanted to help people. And I thought, well, why not go into medicine? And for me, it was a big, big deal because there was no one in my family. It was farmers and my mom was a nurse, but there was no do whatsoever in any history of my ancestors. So I was the very first one to even consider when I first, because I was so naturally minded. We grew up with like, organic things from the garden. And my mom, as a nurse would, you know, try maybe honey and ginger before she would do an antibiotic. So it was very much not that we would issue, not do regular medicine, but we would always try to find more gentle approaches first. And we knew that food was medicine. So I grew up with that foundation. And I had my. Most of the times I visited a chiropractor instead of a primary doc for basic, like check in or nutrition or whatever. So I had a very holistic mindset. And I started by looking at, you know, chiropractic school and acupuncture school and some of the other modalities. And then literally in the midst of it, I thought, well, why not medicine? Even if I don't agree with everything out there, what if I could actually take all the good and then add to it and have a bigger toolbox? And so that was my journey. And as I started getting accepted to allopathic medical school, I chose Loyola. So in Loyola is where my journey really began as a healer. Because as a third year medical student, I'd just gone through my surgical rotation and of course we're taught to do breast exams because that's part of the surgery. I found a lump in my left breast and once again, I was 25. I did not think anything of it. I wasn't concerned. I would have probably ignored it because the grueling schedule of medical school. You know how that goes. But I went ahead and had an ultrasound and a mammogram. And I'll never forget Aaron sitting next to the radiologist because as a student, there's always the learning opportunities. And I look over at him and he's telling me the findings. We're looking at my mammogram and ultrasound on the board. And he said, jill, if you were 55, this is highly suspicious for ductal carcinoma, which is breast cancer, the most common form of breast cancer diagnosed. But you're not. So go ahead and get a biopsy. It's probably okay. But I knew immediately from tone of voice, the look in his eyes, this is serious. And that moment really changed my life forever because shortly after, I had a biopsy and was told that I had a very aggressive form of breast cancer. And I was only 25.

So that's crazy to think about 25, because when I remember I did see a case of a breast cancer young lady when I was in medical school, she was 28. And I was told this was like a 1 in 20,000 or 1 in 30,000 event, if I remember correctly from one of your lectures somewhere, I think atrazine, was that the pesticide, which is still. I mean, it's still used, isn't it?

So of course, part of my brain is so curious, and part of my thing post breast cancer was, well, what happened? Why did I get this? Could I have prevented it? So I just wanted to discover. And I dove into many things like clean hair, makeup products, bath and body products, cleaning products, like all the things that we use in our bodies, especially as women, that are parabens and phthalates and chemicals. And then growing up on the farm, organophosphates and glyphosate. But the big one, as I started to read Tyrone Hayes's work about atrazine as a massive endocrine disruptor, I started searching. I'll never forget the day I, like, googled atrazine use in the US and the map came up. And all of a sudden, right smack dab in the middle of Illinois, where I grew up, was the largest distribution of use in corn and soybeans. I literally called up my dad and I said, dad, I'm looking at this map and atrazine is like smack dab, so highly used in central Illinois. Do you still use that on your crops? And he kind of sighed. And because he start. I mean, with my cancer stuff, he was starting to take stock of what they were doing on the farms and what was traditional, what else they could do? And he sighed and said, yeah, Jill, we do. We use it very heavily on corn. And I just thought, what in the world? The same year I was diagnosed in 2001 in the European Union. So this is over 20 years ago now. It was banned. So it's been banned for over 20 years in Europe and it's still today being used. And it's a known, known toxic endocrine disruptor, which means it has a hormone like effect on the body for men and women and causes disruption, some of which is prostate and breast cancers.

Yeah. And I think what's interesting about that is I hear the story, I'm like, oh, atrocity. That's just illinois. That's just Dr. Carnahan. That's not anywhere else in the country. But here in Richmond, we had an issue with arsenic in the groundwater from my local coal burning plant, Annapolis, Maryland, which is not too far from me. They have a lot of issues with runoff from chemical from companies around there. And they have a higher incidence of cancers in Annapolis. And all of a sudden you start looking and every place has these centers. You know, a family went on a little trip to learn Spanish in Costa Rica before the pandemic to this place, Tuisto Dalba, which is beautiful in the middle of nowhere, the gastric cancer capital of the world. And so I thought it was in the middle of nowhere. And I actually found out, you know, lo and behold, they have chemicals everywhere for food they. They send around. Around, actually around the world, actually. So even though your story sounds a little. It's unique, it's actually common. If you start looking this idea of environmental toxins causing massive health issues. So once you kind of got the diagnosis of breast cancer, like, what are the next steps? Because there's a whole process of you going and getting treated and how it. One thing led to another with your health.

Yeah. So of course the diagnosis was a shock. And that was the big turning point of doctor to patient. And I always say now those really difficult things. And if you're out there listening, I feel like so many people are in crisis, whether it's a relationship breakup or a financial crisis or a job loss or. And I could name 101 other things. When crisis happens. The biggest thing that we can learn is to embrace the uncertainty it brings and also the lessons that it brings. Because often we look back and we say, oh, that was actually really, really good. And I look back now at my cancer and I would not be the same person, the same doctor the same human being without that profoundly changing experience that literally created, I mean, really, it created the biggest part of my healing and also the biggest part of my ability to heal others because I experienced something that no medical textbook could teach me. First thing, first lesson was, all of a sudden I'm faced with all these decisions. First of all, young woman, it's not the standard of care. What do we do with her? Very aggressive. And so I was faced with, do we do super aggressive chemotherapy? Do I skip all the conventional and do alternative or what do I do? I ended up doing all the recommended conventional, very, very aggressive radiation, three drug chemotherapy. One of the drugs was calculated to the maximum rate before my heart would stop beating. So it's literally like it was toxic. It was super toxic. I could never ever get again, get even a small amount of that drug again in my life. I've had the lifetime maximum dosage, but that's how it was. And then I had multiple surgeries to get clear margins and the radiation that followed. But what I, what struck me, the lesson that I took away was here I am in medical training almost, you know, three quarters of the way through. And I went to this was back in the days before you can get all this stuff on Google. I was literally at the medical libraries getting journals and reading these journals. And I was so overwhelmed with how complex there was, not a black and white solution. And I realized for that moment, so often we go into medicine thinking there, here's the answer for this. X, Y, Z. And it's so gray. And you and I know this. But it really struck me as how in the world am I with medical training having this massively complex decision? How does the average patient deal with the complexity and the gray? And we trust, like, as a patient, you trust the doctor to give you the right answer. But when I, for example, radiation after lumpectomy, black and white, right? It's not. When I looked at mortality, there was zero increase in mortality. It was like a three more months of life average. And then that was in a one person. I don't know what the statistics were, but now, but it was so small that I was like, wait, we're basing this decision on that amount of data. And that was the same for many things. So I really thought, when I get to be a doctor, I want to help navigate this with so much compassion as a patient faces a decision. And the biggest thing I offer often is like, number one, there's no pressure because so often they like get cancer and like, we need to decide next week, what to do. And maybe that's true in a very small percentage of aggressive cases. But most of the time they have a few weeks or at least a few days. And that pressure they feel, often they make a poor decision because they're feeling so much pressure. So one of the things I love to tell people is, take your time, get a peace in your heart, pray about it it, because that is where you're going to find the peace. And when I made that decision, I knew there was never, even though I've had immune deficiency and many other side effects since all of the treatment that might have been related to my treatment, there's not one moment that I have said, what if I hadn't done that because I made a decision in real time, I'm going to do this and I'm never, ever going to look back. No matter what happens, whether I live or whether I die or whether I have side effects, I'm going to make the best decision today. And I will never, ever, ever live in regret. And I teach that to patients, too, because it serves us so well to move forward with the best peace of mind that we can do and then never, ever have that rumination going behind us.

It's really interesting you're saying that because there's so much angst in the healthcare system. Like, the most feared thing for a female is the diagnosis of breast cancer. And then you get the diagnosis. It's, oh, my gosh, I have to have this out last week. And it's, well, you don't. You, you, you actually have months to figure things out. They don't, like you said. And so, but we're so trained that once you get the diagnosis, it has to be cured last week that people don't have time to like, sit and ruminate and think and, and process and talk to their family and actually come to a decision where they are like, I'm doing the right thing. So it's really, I think that's a really key thing with whatever your diagnosis is. Unless it's like acute appendicitis or something like that.

You know, there's rare exceptions, even maybe acute pancreatic cancer that's so aggressive that it dumps in a day or something. There are exceptions, but. And the bigger thing to that is like, that really. And I think all of us know the slowing down and being present and really tapping into our bodies innately have wisdom. And so often we relegate the knowledge to someone else. Like, someone else, tell me what to do. Whereas if we not that we can't gather information from professionals. I think that's very appropriate. But then ultimately we have to make a decision. And so many patients relegate that because they're like, oh, I don't know what to do. But if they go deeper down, if they pray, they meditate, whatever practice they have, they often will know. And their body is very, very wise. And I love encouraging people to tap into that innate wisdom that we all have.

And that requires having some space, having some time, and having some quiet to sit and actually listen, which is very atypical for our current. Our current culture. So you got surgery, you got chemo, radiation. How do you do with those therapies? Like, what were some of the things that they did with your body? If I remember correctly, at some point in time, you actually end up getting inflammatory bowel disease. I'm not sure if that was this part or.

Yes, exactly. So it was brutal. It was so brutal. And I literally, in my mind, I'm like this tough farm girl. I'm like, oh, no one will even know I have cancer. I'm going to go, I'm going to keep doing my rotations. And at first chemo, I was curled up in a ball. I started losing my hair right away, and I was like, oh, there is no way I can even get out of bed, let alone do a rotation. So very quickly I knew I had to take a leave of absence. I took nine months off to do all the therapy, came back, and once again, I was still in that. This is also part of my healing, is I was in this top farm girl mentality. Don't ask for help, don't complain. And you know how residency was. It's same, same era. Unless you're dead or running like 103 temperature, you report to work. You do not call in sick. There's no such thing. Almost. There's no compassion to like. And you think about the training. I mean, we're trained to hold our bladder, just not eat, to not sleep, to, like, deny all of our own physical needs so that we can show up, but we're actually not doing ourselves any service. Because how in the world can we show up as a compassionate, fully human physician when we're totally in denial and basically dissociated from our own needs? And I was no different. And so I came back in, like, literally, you know, a week after I got my last radiation treatment, I'm back on the floor doing er and I was running fevers. I was so sick. I was so malnourished. I had no business. Looking back, I was like, I would have said, sweetheart, take some time off, like, take care of yourself. But I had no concept around growing up in the farm family, brothers on either side of me. It was all around, you know, show up, don't complain, work hard, all those things. So I did it. Looking back, though, again, it was not good for me. And I started running fevers, and within six months, I ended up passing out in my ER rotation, ended up in the ER with an abscess that was drained. And that woke up to the surgeon saying, jill, this is classical Crohn's disease. You have Crohn's disease.

So that's kind of crazy, from cancer to Crohn's. And I think just that's really super interesting because there in my medical school class, there was a young lady who actually got diagnosed with multiple sclerosis after her first year in medical school. I mean, to your point, I actually remember going to having influenza and doing rounds with 102. Yes, it's a different world. And so, like, stress induced. It wasn't just illness. Stress making this other inflammatory and autoimmune thing kind of pop up. So what was next? I mean, you know, many people would have dropped out of school. Many people would have dropped out of school after the first incident.

Right.

You're the second one. So what do you do? You do next? Like, what's your next step?

Yeah. And again, it's hard to even describe. Like, I was probably really dissociated and I was very, like, I had a strong will. I was so sick. I was so sick and so malnourished. And it makes perfect sense because some of the chemo drugs actually induce more permeability. I had a genetic predisposition towards having an abnormally aggressive response to a normal microbiome, which was part of the leaky gut, creating dumpage of bacterial contents into my blood. And then that created the storm of developed into Crohn's disease. So it kind of makes sense that it was a perfect storm. First visit was to the gastroenterologist. He said, jill, you're going to need steroids. Here's an immune modulating option for drugs. You're probably going to need surgery during your life. And he gave me this whole spiel, and this is incurable, and you're likely going to have part of your colon removed over your life. I mean, it was dismal. And the last question, I was so sincere in this. I was like, you know what? I want to do whatever I can. What diet Should I be on does diet, if anything to do with it? He did not even pause. And the Jill diet has nothing to do with this. And kind of shamed me for asking the question, but I have this enough stubbornness in me and enough intuition to be like, that can't be right. Like, how can diet not have anything to do with Crohn's? And I didn't know any better, but I went out to find answers and I came across some data on specific carbohydrate diet and a few other things. And I had nothing to lose. Right. I was already on medications for the inflammation and I was very, very sick. I changed my diet and at that moment I was gluten free free and more specific carbohydrate than anything, which is still what I like to start my Crohn's and colitis patients on, although there's many variations. And within two weeks, my fevers went away, my diarrhea started fading, and I wasn't cured. It took a lot of years to really heal the microbiome in the gut. But there was such a dramatic difference on two weeks on a new diet that I thought, oh, my goodness, there is something going on here.

So the diet that doesn't work, that's not supposed to work, actually worked?

Yes.

Did you ever go back to the GI doctor and like do a follow up or didn't say, hey, I did this. Do you think it's helping? Was there any kind of fall up with that or did you just kind of not mention it at all?

It's so funny because I'm trying to remember because I did have that gastrologist and he was fulfilling a prescription, but I think once the prescription ran out and it was like, as acetylcholamine, I think one of those, you know, early kind of drugs that aren't super powerful. And then I think I stopped the drug and never went back.

So. Wow. Wow. So. So any one of the things you said it took years to heal. I think that's important thing for people to hear because a lot of times people will get a, you know, GI effects or, you know, a GI360 or whatever test they do, and they're like, I'll change my diet and why am I not better in three months or why am I not 100% better? Healing is a journey. It's a process. And for your gut, it's. I tell people it's a lifelong. I mean, you're gonna have to also be pushing against that microbiome forever. So you're finishing your third year of medical school, you got this double diagnosis. What was your next, like, event?

Yeah, and just a comment on the diet. I think that's so critical because I have chosen something lifelong like my diet. I'm basically paleo grain free, completely gluten free, sugar free, all processed food free. Now the good news is, as I get healthier and healthy and healthier, if I want to have a little splurge, I don't ever splurge on gluten and dairy. Don't drink alcohol, but certain things may be a little bit more processed once in a great while. I can do that now. So it's also not as restrictive as it used to be, but this has been a lifelong choice. And then to your point point, I really had to deep dive into the dysbio. Significant dysbiosis. I had silent celiac, which I didn't know. So there was a lot of healing that had to take place over many years that to really get me to the place where I say I am completely cured of Crohn's, but it wasn't overnight. And what I love about diet is you can often see a transition rip very quickly, but it takes time. It takes so much time to get to where I've gotten. So got out of medical school and again, I started, you know, turning the corner and gaining weight and doing well. And then I went to Peoria, Illinois to do my residency and came out of there and asked the hospital to help me build an integrated medical center. So then I was kind of on my way to really doing what I wanted to do, but I was still stuck in a system at that time. It was a hospital based system and it was all about productivity. So I'll never remember, I never forget sitting in a board meeting and I was the integrative medical director of that part of the hospital. And there's a gastroenterology director in all the different departments. And the CEO was talking about each department and the number of beds filled, which meant how many, how much business are we sending to the hospital? Which was hysterical because I'm like, wait a second, I'm trying to keep people out of the hospital. Like, this is not going to go well for me if I. So I kind of saw the writing on the wall as far as they wanted the status of having an integrative center. And they were the only hospital in central Illinois that did. But they didn't understand what that really meant in terms of how do we treat the patients, how do we heal the patients? And Even for me, I was still in a productivity model, so I was required to see a lot more patients than is legitimately appropriate for functional medicine. And I was burning myself out. And I didn't know it, but that's kind of the story there. And somehow I think God aligned it so that I could get to Colorado. And I ended up leaving that job and starting over in Colorado. And that was really the beginning in Colorado 2010 to my functional medicine career.

I think that's what's a really interesting thing you said there. Because when I started my practice, one of the things I learned early on was the average family practitioner create about one point, and this is 2007, create about $1.4 million in revenue for the local hospital. I mean, they know the numbers down to the, the decimal. And most of it's in hospital admissions and radiology. And so they're looking at you. And when they buy practices, they're not buying the primary care practice, they're buying the referral center. And so people don't realize that affects so much of what's approved by insurance, how physicians. Not that we're bad people, but just it's the game. And you almost have to jump out of the system and figure out a different reimbursement system where you're directly responsible to your patients, not third party people. I think. Could you talk to that a little bit? Because I think that's something people don't understand. Like, why is there. Why don't more people do integrative medicine? Why don't they people. I hear this all the time. Like, it's just there's a lack of understanding of how the system actually works, that the reimbursement schemes and ultimately you have to follow the money.

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I love this because it's so important and for patients to know. First thing was when I first got out of residency and went and I started in a family practice, but I had one day a week that was cash integrative. So I kind of saw both. In the beginning I did traditional family practice, but just started to do a little bit of cash on the side where I would spend more time with patients. I'll never forget in that part of the practice. Often the question would be because this was like very commercially based, I'd say, okay, well let's start with vitamin D or some real basic thing. And they'd be like, does insurance cover that? And it was flabbergast. I'm like, well no, but it's like $10 a bottle and why wouldn't you do something for. So this idea that you have to invest in your own health and the insurance is going to save me is so. Well, it's a myth because insurance is there for a. It's if you are falling through the cracks or you have a life threatening illness, it will probably help you pay your bills and even then it's questionable. But it is not to keep you healthy. It is not intended to keep you healthy and the decisions made by your insurance will not keep you healthy. So that was the first aha. Second aha was I'm doing this cash practice, right? What happened was the patients from my family practice compared to the cash practice were so different. And here's why. When someone invests something of themselves and they pay something to a doctor out of their own hard earned cash, they're invested. And at first I was like, oh, I hate the cash system. I don't want to, I want to do this for free. I want to, you know, serve people. But what I realized is by them investing in my visit and the cost associated with that, all of a sudd they had a whole different attitude about what they needed to do because they're investing. So they're willing to change their diet, they're willing to do things. And I've never gone back from cash since that time because, number one, I no longer work for the insurance company. I am sitting with that patient I'm making, I am completely tuned into them and what is best for them. If they need an mri, I'll get it and I'll get it approved if possible. Or if they need this, whatever they need, it's all about them. If we're traditionally in the insurance system, we're constantly, and you know this as well, fighting with the company to say my patient needs this. And the business person on the other end will say well they don't really need that and who are they to make a medical decision? But all day long maybe 50% of our time is spent fighting with the bureaucracy of what's covered and what's not covered. And I wanted nothing to do with that.

Yeah, I think one of the things people don't realize because we used to see a lot of patients in the hospital, we were the hospitals for our patients for about, about 15 years and we were graded by on how many days a patient was in the hospital and how many complexity codes we'd give them. So someone came in with a uti, they had to get up coded to urosepsis because that gave them three days in the hospital versus UTI gave you a 23 hour admit. And so there's all these pressures and so you're put, you're pushed to find more sicker diagnosis but never asked why do you, why is this your third UTI in two months? Why do you keep on getting like urosepsis for a 55 year old female? Like what's going on here? That was never the question. It was like maximizing the value for those admission things. And so that's something I think that just a perverse incentive in our system that unfortunately many times makes patients become proceduralized which is unfortunately kind of what how it is. And so I love that you say that you patients that are engaged that are there to get better and there to learn, but also do what you tell them what you recommend to do, not to in an authoritative way, but they want to heal well.

And what you're describing is so the paternalistic model is old school and I think it's going away, I don't think it's going to survive very much longer. And that's the authority of the doctor who knows what to do. Right. The old, some of Those Patrick Quinn, M.D. and some of those, you know, medicine woman and that. But the truth is like now like I feel like number one, I'm a partner and I'm like really engaging and where do you want to go? Where do you let me be your guide, give me your map of where you want to go and I'll help you get there, I'll give you like a detailed map and then you get to take the journey. But I'm your guide. I'm your tour guide. I'm the one who encourages you, supports you, ask the questions so that we can figure out together what the best way to get there is. And that excites me because I ultimately, I'm very hands off. I'm like, you can do this or not do this. You can get these supplements or not get these supplements, but I will help you with everything in me. But ultimately you have to take the first step and that's going to not only create a much better outcome, but a much better trust filled partnership, which is core.

Yeah. And on a side thing, I want to, to back up one thing you mentioned about the food, I remember, I think which conference I was at where you were talking at and you at that point in time, I don't know if you still do this or not, you actually had shipped ahead your food for the weekend that you're going to be somewhere. And I think that weekend your food didn't come. So you literally were fasting for 24 hours waiting for your stuff to come. And actually, I think Dr. Wallace does, Terry Wallace does something very similar. Like when you're using your food like a drug medicinally to heal and you have a significant health, health issue, I mean, you were taking, you were taking very, very seriously. I think you mentioned if you, if you got an infraction, you felt it for days. And so I think, you know, your body is a tell, but that's the case with anything food. Your body takes what you eat and it turns it into who you are. And so I think like realizing that if you really want to take your health seriously, you really have to take food seriously like a drug. Not, not everybody has to take it to that extreme, but we have to take it seriously.

Yeah. No, I actually love that because people don't finally, after 20 plus years out of cancer and Crohn's and I can be more, a little bit more flexible, but I' you might call it rigid, but I don't call it that way. It actually gives me more freedom because every time we make a decision in the day, we lose our willpower. It just goes down like this. It's evidence based. Right. So by the end of the day, that's when most people snack on unhealthy things because they've lost the willpower and like, oh, chocolate sounds good, or potato chips or whatever. But the truth is that's because you have all these decisions. If you eliminate those things from your pantry or you don't ever, you have a Like for me, I just have rules. I don't eat gluten, I don't drink alcohol. I never have to. If someone offers me a drink or someone offers me a piece of bread, there's no decision, willpower, because I just. That's not who I am. It's identity. And we create identities around our health and healing and what we want to be. It's so easy because this is who I am, not what I do. And when that's part of our identity, it makes the decision making process so easy. And for me, Gretchen Rubin talks about abstainers and moderators. Abstainers are the ones that are just all or nothing like me. And it works much better. There's another type called a moderator, and they might need like a 90%, 10% rule. So you might resonate with that more than you resonate with what I'm saying. But the truth is, someone like me, those rules actually create such a beautiful guardrail that makes your life so easy.

So you, you worked through breast cancer and then the toxicity from chemo. You worked through flanker bowel disease, Crohn's disease, and occult celiac. You mentioned what was your next health struggle?

Yeah, so that was my 20s. That was a rough time. Children of my own, because I, like, all through my fertility years, I was dealing with very, very severe chronic illness. So I was doing well, moved to Colorado, started a new practice. I was running again, hiking, doing life. And we had a massive flood in Boulder, 2013. It flooded my office and caused water damage, unbeknownst to me. But about six months later, I started having symptoms of mold toxicity, which I. We weren't taught in medical school. And I wouldn't have even known what it was. Brain fog, skin issues, mast cell activation, just so many different things. Fatigue for sure. And. And lo and behold, there was stachybotrys in the basement of my office. And I started by testing my urine, doing the blood workup for an immune system, and then testing the bulk sample, and everything matched. And very soon after that, it was the end of 2014. I was like, oh, mold is an issue. And then I did a deep dive because I wanted to get, well, all of my education in the gut and some of this with mold has been, I need to fix myself first. And this was no different. I feel like God's given me these, like, things that have been, okay, let's see how you handle this. So mold was the next thing. And it took many, many, many months to detox and really understand that. But that was my Doorway into mold toxicity and becoming a mold expert and environmental toxicity. And I overcame that eventually, too, after several years.

So you'll come. Some one in two Americans will get cancer, and the mold is crazy. Like, 22, 23% of the population has the gene for it, and half the buildings in the country have water damage. You've worked through some things that sound unique, but actually they're way more common than people would give credence to. How have these made you good at what you do? How these helped hone your skills, your art as a clinician? Because there's the cognitive aspect. You memorize the stuff and you become good. There's the hard aspect of being a compassionate person, but also that personal experience of working through this or a loved one. How has it affected how you. Clinical insight, but also how you care for people?

Yeah. So there is. I mean, almost anyone sits in front of me, whether they're suffering from something similar for me or something totally different. I know what it's like to face illness, to face it alone, to be in pain, to not know what the next day might bring. And so I have definitely a deep, deep, deep empathy with my patients because of that. I sit across from them and I never, ever feel like I am any better or any different. I'm just human, just like them. So it really brought a level of humanity and compassion because I. I, were it for the grace of God, I would be the same place I could be dead. So I know the gift that I've been given, and if I can extend that to hope and healing to others. One of the things before we went on that you mentioned, I want to make sure we talk about is so often people look at me, and again, right now I'm out in the world and teaching and doing all kinds of fun things, and they're like, well, that's Dr. Jill. But I could never do that. But I feel so, so humble because I think any one of us has the opportunity, and where does that come from? So I think we all. I loved the work of Viktor Frankl and just the ability of our mind to overcome. And one of the things that kept me going through each of these things was believing that there was an answer. Like, I never, ever, ever had a doubt that I could get through cancer. It was hard and it was scary, and it was painful, and same with Crohn's, but somewhere deep, deep inside of me, and I'm not different from anybody else, we all have this deep, innate sense of ability to overcome, and we have to tap into that. And so if you're out there suffering or struggling with something and you feel like you've lost hope, I just encourage you to tap into that deepest place of knowing that there is answers and believing that. There's a chapter in my book, I call it Believe, act, Wait. And it's really the formula for my life. I didn't realize it till I wrote it. But the believe part is knowing and believing that something else is possible, that you can heal from this, that you can find answers. And you kind of have to let go of your timeline because that's what we get attached to is the control. And well, I want it in six months or I want it in two years. But if you let go of the timeline and you don't ask the questions about, well, when you're just focused on the. I believe that something can happen and you really trust that process, that's when miracles start to happen. So the believe is the first part. The act is do what's in your power. Go study nutrition, find a good functional doctor, change your diet, go extra. Whatever things are in your capacity at that moment to do. You do, you go get a new training degree or you go whatever it is. We always have some part that we can do. So we have to believe, believe something else is possible, act, do what we can. And then the wait part is trusting a higher power, whatever that looks like for you, to do the things that you can't. And when you do that, when you walk through life with great expectation, I cannot tell you the number of times you could call them miracles, where the resource, the person, the solution, the thing came to me and it was in the wait period, and it's the hardest period because we have to trust that the answers, the divine solutions, the people, the places, the things, the drugs, the supplements are coming and will be revealed. But when we trust, it opens up the universe to help us in that journey. And people over and over will experience healing. It's hard, but it's also simple.

I have experienced that on the opposite end as a practitioner, because my small part of my story is my daughter, her health issues. But there's routinely times where I'll learn something new. And four weeks later this new patient comes in that I've. I would had no idea what to do with you five weeks ago, but now I know and it's just like I have this little mantra that I pray when I go to work. I pray to see what can't be seen, hear it can't be heard, and diagnosed where it can't be diagnosed. And it actually, strangely enough, that happens routinely. Not just a one off, but on a routine basis. And so I think people just overlook the power of the spiritual aspect. We are, we have a spirit, spiritual aspect to us. Whatever your belief system is with that, and that's huge. And if you ignore that, it's going to impede your healing process, which I think is a great way to segment into. It's a thing that's been on my radar in the last year or two. But I've come to realize it's a big issue. And some people call different things like trauma, big T trauma, little T trauma, medical trauma or whatever. I found that's one of people's places in their healing process. They get stuck. And the trauma could be something that happened to them when they're six or it could be their health issue. They've been chronically ill themselves for years. Could you talk a little bit about that? Not maybe not yourself, but other with patients, like how this aspect of trauma, and some people call it limbic kindling or you know, vagal nerve dysfunction or whatever you want to call it, but this idea that your brain gets stuck and we have to get our brain to do what it was made to do, which is help us self heal and self repair.

Yeah. Oh, I love this because I've been doing functional medicine a long time and I love the supplements, diet, nutrition, lifestyle, all those things are important. But by far the biggest transformations I've seen is when we go to this level of the limbic looping or the trauma or whatever it is. And we all have it. Some people do have supplements, some really significant big T traumas, horrific things they've been through. But most of us have a combination or sometimes we just have the little T's where our, you know, mother might have favored our sister one time and it felt, you know, shameful, whatever it is. And they can seem small, but if we don't address them and start to find healing within ourselves, that we carry those patterns and those patterns will develop into illness. For example, breast cancer. There's actually been studies and research and Gabor Mate talks about this in his latest book with women who are over nurturing, meaning they put everybody's needs ahead of themselves and they don't really take care of themselves. That was definitely me and this beautiful thing I grew up in. This idea that, you know, you serve others and love others and take care of others first and there's nothing wrong with that, but if it's at the expense of yourself or you have self hatred or you disown parts of yourselves, your body will develop symptoms. And for me, that's what it was. I wasn't taking care of myself. And what I learned is I grew up in a culture that was very conservative, kind of fundamental Christian. And it was taught self love is like selfish or maybe not godly or whatever. And so because of that I thought, oh my goodness, I can't love myself. But my healing actually happened when I started to really love my body, love myself, accept myself in a healthy way, and only then could I trust. We talked about a patient making a decision and trusting their intuition or peace that they might find in a decision. Well, if you don't really love yourself and believe that you are worthy of love as a human being, not for what you're doing or achieving, but just for being born, you're worthy of love. And if you start to embrace that, well then you can actually start to trust the thoughts that come, the ideas that come, the direction that comes through prayer, through meditation, through talking with friends and colleagues and resources. And so those things are so crucial because that creates a foundation of safety, which is where trauma is sabotaging. If you don't feel safe in your body, like you can trust this thing that we're inside, that our soul lives in, if we can't trust that to give us information, then there's no safety. And when there's no safety in your body, you cannot heal. Like it is an absolute. I can tell you 100% of the time, if someone truly does not feel safe in their body, they will have illness. So this level I feel like is so powerful. I'm not the expert. I send people to Somatic Therapist and Primal Trust and all kinds of programs. Gupta, DNRs, there's a bunch of them out there, or if even just the word neuro, linguistic programming or tapping. But any sort of thing that works for you I think is really, really powerful in the healing. And if you're not doing some of that, you're probably not going to get 100% to where you want to get go.

Yeah, I've found that to be 100% the case. People, they get like 60% better or 70, whatever that sticking point is. That is it. Did I miss mold? Did I miss Lyme, you know, running a nutri valve? What have I missed? And I usually do that a couple times and then eventually. Okay, wait, maybe we need to. I had one patient actually. She was in her 70s and she had a bad relationship with her mother. And her mother passed away. And she just was stuck in her healing process. And I pulled a Dr. Phil on her and I was like, you need to go down to your mother's grave in Florida. You need to curse her out and you need to forgive her. And just the idea, like, I have to forgive this person who caused me pain and suffering for her and. But when she did that, she came back to me like four months later. She's like, oh, my gosh, like a weight came off my back. My pain is almost all the way gone. And we'd done all kinds of stuff and fancy tests and mold and Lyme and binders and who knows what and. But her sticking point was her brain was, you know, this is where some of cell danger response comes into play, where her brain was making her mitochondria get stuck in something as simple as forgiveness for her was the next step in healing journey. So I really love, love that. And I've discovered the exact same thing in my practice as well. So one respect your time. We're getting close to a hard stop right here. I love your story. I love all you do. If people want to learn more about what you're doing, could you just share with us briefly and we'll put this in the show notes as well, like where people can learn more about you on what you're doing, on what you're doing next.

Yeah. So everything the Hub is, is my website, which is my name, just Jill Carnahan. J I L L C A R N A H-A-N dot com. We just put the book out last year and it's been really well received and probably more than anything, because I really, really pour out my heart and my story in a very, very personal way. And I just wanted to share because I think like you said in the beginning, I am not unique. I am no different than you. My story is no different from you. And my prayer in the book was that you would see yourself in some part of the story and maybe somehow have hope that you too can have resilience and overcome. Because I am no different than you. And that's the book. It's called Unexpected Finding Resilience Through Functional Medicine, Science and Faith. And then as part of that, we did a documentary into 2022, and that's also available for streaming. It's just doctor patient movie. Doctor patient movie dot com. It will soon be on itunes and Amazon. For the moment, it's at the website and you can stream it or watch it or share it or whatever. And that's also just a deep look into what does it look like in the function medicine practice to see patients, what does my own healing look like? And again, both of those were for me, it was a real challenge to go super deep and to share it very, very personal because I realized it's that that's our connected tissue is our human story and our humanity. And I want to come across as I'm just another woman trying to navigate this life. And if I can be an encouragement to you, then that would that's all I need.

Thank you so much for your story. Thank you for your time. I really appreciate you spending some time to talk with us today. And I'm sure we'll see later we'll put all this information in the show notes. So thank you so much for your time and sharing with us today.

You're welcome. All right.

Take care.

Take care.