Chronic Inflammatory Response Syndrome (CIRS) – Why This Missed Condition Causes Fatigue Brain Fog and Multi System Symptoms | CIRS | E124

I tell patients all the time the markers I'm checking are your immune system's flare gun. If the flare gun's firing off, it means that they're stuck in the middle of the ocean waiting for the coast guard to show up. They're firing off the flare gun. It's super high. They're saying we need help, but no one's coming to help them because there's a disconnect between the innate and the adaptive immune system.

Welcome back. So excited to be with everybody once again continuing our conversation in regards to mystery illnesses, illnesses, diseases that have multiple symptoms and different body parts. The specialty between the specialties, as you said, the interstitial, the connective tissue. Yeah, yeah. Let's next talk about this thing that I don't think most people have heard of even today, chronic inflammatory spine syndrome. So tell us, what is it? Is it just mold? Is it just, you know, soil based organisms? Is breast implant illness a part of that? Is there a concussion variant? Like, tell us big picture, like what is this thing that is just now becoming to public consciousness? Because famous people are getting it.

Yeah, thank God that it's now coming to the public because it is in dire need of becoming mainstream medicine and something that a lot of people are suffering from, myself included previously, that needs to be treated in order to prevent future morbidity and mortality. I mean it's a really serious thing. So. And it's ubiquitous. It is the poster child of what we're talking about as far as mysterious illnesses that aren't as mysterious as you think. The complex system wide, complex symptom, wide biological disarray that ensues. It is immune dysregulation, it is inflammation, it is mitochondrial dysfunction, it is all these things happening concurrently. And it's set up by someone who has genetic predisposition, an environmental exposure and then a scale that tips. It's the shortest way to say it. Essentially it is the end product of biotoxin illness. Biotoxins are collectively known as biological toxins in the environment. Mold is the most common, well known one. But there's bacteria, there's algal blooms, VOCs are classified as such. Particulate matter, beta glucans, breast implants, vaccine associated injury. I mean the list goes on and on and on. In the original literature there was at least 30 if not more that were reported and that continues to grow now. Covid and Long Covet have been kind of clumped in and it all the tick borne stuff that we were talking about, the co infections, all of these things are now being seen as biotoxins. And if you're in that 24, 20 to 24% who are genetically predisposed to immunologically inappropriately handling these, then you stockpile them. Over time, your bucket fills up. Over time, your bucket overflows. And then you flip into chronic inflammatory response syndrome, which is named after inflammation. But the reality is that that's a misnomer. It's a hypometabolic mitochondrial disease. Your mitochondria go into a cell danger response, they shut down and they go into conservation mode. All things that they affect, besides just making energy start to go awry. You don't make neurotransmitters, you don't regulate your redox poise, you get more oxidative and inflamed. You're not regulating your target organ function. Everything goes into energetic crisis. Hormones get imbalanced, your immune system gets wonky, Everything just kind of goes sideways and then you're stuck. So you have to then identify in those individuals a, do they meet a case definition, which is screening and biomarkers that are commonly seen in the peer reviewed literature, combined with the known exposure, combined with response to treatment. If they make a case definition and you work towards treatment and then ultimately resolution, that person gets better. And this is someone who's probably already seen 10, 15 other doctors, specialists and subspecialists who ring cold. There's nothing wrong with you. All my laps look good. It's probably in your head. Here's your SSRI and they are not well. They're sick, but they're well enough to function, so no one feels bad for them. But you know how you feel. And it's hard because it's alienating because there's a genetic component to it that you're living in a house that's moldy and, and feel horrible, but your spouse may not. And it's a hard sell that we gotta do this $40,000 remediation when you feel fine and I don't. And so it just becomes this kind of nightmare. And a lot of practitioners also gaslight patients with regards to these illnesses. So it's a very common thing. Again, 20 to 24% is a statistic genetically. And what in the 90s, the EPA estimated half of buildings in the United States have had water damage. That was in the 90s. So like, let's talk about now probably more than that, 40, 40, 50 million people walking around with autoimmunity, fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue syndrome, you know, weird mast cell stuff. Dysautonomia, mood disorders, long Covid that are being given those diagnoses where it maybe all falls under the umbrella of circus.

Yeah. One thing I don't think we've ever said on any of the podcasts previously that you said that I want to hammer here real quick before I do that. I want to just the people that are listening to this, we did a whole five or six podcast series on serum particularly. So if you think you have it, please check that out because we spent

a lot of time on that complicated and we're just scratching the surface. That goes real deep.

Yeah, 100%. Yeah. But it's the inflammation. That's not inflammation. You said. And I don't think I actually have actually said that verbally out loud. The traditional markers are normal. SUD rate is normal, CRP is normal, white cell count is normal. But yet it's an immune dysregulation. You have to almost go from your more advanced immune system to your more primitive immune system, which is your complement system. So all of a sudden you're looking at tissue growth factor beta, which the autoimmune experts know because they have drugs that block this cytokines. They've, we have biologics to block these in certain autoimmune issues. But the testing in a standard clinic, no one's checking C4A, C3A, TGF beta. No one's looking for the neuro hormonal axis dysregulation, looking at ACTH cortisol, adh, osmolalam.

How do they even measure for mitochondrial dysfunction? Right, like that's not even. You can't really do that. Well, no one's going to get a mitochondrial biopsy, right? Get a tissue biopsy to see if your mitochondria function or not. So it's, it's extrapolated data, but it's corroborated by these markers that are part of that CERS biomarker pathway, that innate immune system, that prehistoric immune system, your surveillance system that still works even if you're in the genetics, but is working in overdrive. I tell patients all the time the markers I'm checking are your immune system's flare gun. If the flare gun's firing off, it means that they're stuck in the middle of the ocean waiting for the Coast Guard to show up. They're firing off the flare gun. It's super high. They're saying we need help, but no one's coming to help them because there's a disconnect between the innate and the adaptive immune system, that antigen presentation, that bridge is broken. That's when you start to see the TGF beta start to go up. Now you lose immune tolerance. Now we have food sensitivities and muscle issues, we might have autoimmunity, we're creating oxidative stress, we depleting glutathione and it just becomes a loop. All the while the underpinning of my mitochondria were making energy and now saying screw this, we're not gonna do it until you get this sorted out and everything starts to suffer and go sideways because of it.

And what can happen typically is if these people stay like this with this innate immune system activation long enough, it then triggers their adaptive. And they will have positive lupus, aquatics, positive ana. They'll start getting clotting abnormalities, their D dimers start going up, fibrinogen and, and they can, they can present with a pulmonary emboli. Yeah, they can present with dvts, they can present to the cardiologist with shortness of breath and right sided heart failure. Cuz the right side heart pressure, they

get pulmonary artery hypertension.

Yeah.

And they wind up, it's like the walk around version of sepsis. You're not in shock and you're not septic per se by strict definition. But like your immune system is all firing on all cylinders but like not communicating in a wonky way. And you actually have increased bleeding risk or increased clotting risk or, or both depending on the individual because these are mitochondrial genes that get dysregulated from a transcription standpoint. So you can see people with microvascular disease, microbleeds in the brain or microemboli Ischemic disease, small vessel ischemic disease, you see neuronal damage because of that, you see volume loss because of that. And then how do they present? Brain fog and fatigue. Right. I'm just not as sharp as I once was. I can't remember things. And you can measure that on a neuro quantitative mri. So it just all starts to kind of fit into place. Autoimmunity is par for the course in these patients. And to kind of double click on your comment about the innate immune system, it's working overdrive all the time and it then activates the adaptive, it also can deplete itself. And now you see that drop in that Y count, that drop in that natural killer cell count and now maybe indolent infections get unleashed and it just becomes a hey, my present, my presentation is Lyme or BART or EBV reactivation But as we track that back, it's. It was mold that did it. It was your house that did it. It was the sick building that you live in or go to work in that did this, that messed with your immune system enough for so long that all these other things that were already there, but at least being kept at bay are now unleashed. And it's all these things and then you have to manage that patient.

Let's do something fun right now, this idea popping head.

Sure.

Let's take some obscure patient things that we're thinking about and just briefly share with them. And I'll lead the way with that because as you're talking, I'm thinking about a patient I'm working with right now who lives in our local area, went to the Cleveland Clinic because no one locally could figure out what was going on with him. He's in his early 50s, had five strokes, made his way up to the Cleveland Clinic. And they say you have autoimmune vasculitis causing these. And how do you treat that standard of care? It was a cholesterol medication, even though his cholesterol is fine. Blood pressure medications to get it as low as possible, even though his blood pressure is fine. And cross your fingers. So he came, found me, started working with me, and for the next two years, he didn't have a single stroke. We found he had mold issues. And what's causing the microvascular stuff that was resulting in these strokes was chronic inflammatory response.

Yeah.

And the interesting thing is when we, when I first started seeing him, the cluster analysis we do actually was normal on him. But because this was weird and no one had made the diagnosis. Yeah. In addition to doing all the tick borne stuff, I also did the C4, A, C3, a TGF beta.

You had, you had a clinical suspicion.

Clinical suspicion.

And you also cared enough to want this guy to get better. Yeah.

Yeah.

So if you hit a wall, what do you do? Make a window. Right. Doesn't matter if his screening tools were normal. I have patients that their VCS is 100% every time. There's a subset that will crush it every time. Artists, athletes, people with great vision. People downplay their symptoms. They get used to feeling unwell. They reset their baseline for tolerance. So then when you ask them, review symptoms. No, no, no, no. But maybe it's a yes or maybe they're all. Are all nos, but it doesn't mean they don't have pathology. And it's shades of gray. It's not black, white. SIRS is not. SIRS is not sirs. When you treat a SIRS patient, you're treating one SIRS patient. SIRS in general is the concept that is the diagnosis, if it meets diagnostic criteria. But I have yet to meet a SIRS patient that is identical to the other SIRS patient that is identical to the other SIRS patient because transcription, again is graded. So the degree of upregulation or downregulation of these genes is. Is a dial, not a switch. And so presentation is going to be different.

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If you're listening to this and you want to work with someone, you need to work with someone who's seen a lot of these patients from a lot of different angles from around the country, if not the world, to really get a feel for what's going on. Another patient that I've been working with for years now came to me. She actually had gone up to John Hopkins and had been diagnosed with autoimmune autonomic ganglionopathy, which there's 50 cases I looked at in the literature. There's 50 cases a year of this. Diagnosed her whole entire GI tract stopped. She had really bad SIBO as well. So in order to treat that, they saw it, which is small intestinal bacterial liver growth. They put a feeding thing in her. She didn't eat for three months straight. Comes comes back down to me. We start talking. Oh, by the way, she started getting clotting, got pulmonary emboli. Come to find out, she has mold in her house. She's sleeping in the basement of her house. All her markers for mold are positive, and it's like, so you went, had these extreme things done and literally your house was making you sick.

Yeah.

Do you have any interesting kind of.

Yeah, I mean, like, those are phenomenal stories. Here's something that might even strike more close to home to some, for some individuals out there. I have two Parkinson's patients, both Parkinson's patients diagnosed by a neurologist patient being treated with the standard of care. Both neurologists are currently second guessing their diagnosis and weaning them off their medications. Both of these patients are SIRS patients. So I'm going to say that differently. Each of these individuals, different age, different presentation, diagnosed with early Parkinson's, placed on carbidopa, sinemet, carbidopa, Levodopa, and ultimately had response to treatment. Therefore, your diagnosis has been officially handed down because there's no real great way to diagnose Parkinson's constellation of symptoms. Maybe a DAD scan. Now they're moving towards skin biopsies and then it's response to treatment. I think they're both SIRS patients, so I work them up. They both are, they meet criteria. They're getting their houses remediated. I put them on detox support. We're doing all the things. They're both clinically improving and their neurologists are now taking them off their medications to see how they do and saying maybe this isn't Parkinson's, maybe it never was. That is profound. How many people out there with a diagnosis of Parkinson's or dementia or als? I have an Ms. Patient. Same thing is happening. He just told me excitedly that he just did his PT and his pt, I guess end points that he hits in physical therapy. He's like 10 to 15% higher than he was a year ago for strength, mobility, and all the things that he's doing. So he's improving just by getting his house remediated and a little bit of detox. I haven't even reversed SIRS in any of these patients yet. And they're improving just from them getting their environment right, addressing Marcons and getting on some binders. Detox support, cleaning up their gut, cleaning up their nutrition, cleaning up nutrient deficiencies, balancing some hormones. And now all of a sudden a grave diagnosis is becoming a oops, maybe we didn't mean this kind of scenario. That's pretty profound.

Yeah. And you know, part of that detox is using lipids, using phosphatidylcholine, using special kind of fats that literally act like soap to clean out toxins, that actually activate your body, making acetylcholine, which Is calms the nervous system down. Question for you. Because I, I'm always curious about the curiosity of other doctors and specialists with those two individuals you talked about. That's pretty cool. That's really awesome. Like, when they went to the specialists and came back, were the specialists curious? Did they ask questions or were they kind of like. And they kind of.

No. So that's the worst part is like the one patient was so anxious about going to the neurology follow up appointment because she did not know if she should even talk about sirs or mold because she thought it would be so swept under the rug. And I said, you have to be true to yourself. If you feel like you're withholding information from your provider and that makes you feel unwell, that makes you feel off, that goes against your morals and ethics. Doesn't matter what he or she thinks, you go ahead and you tell them, if they need to talk to me, I'll talk to them. I'll take the brunt of that for you. You be honest with them. But if you don't want to say anything to them, you don't have to say anything to them. That is completely up to you. But you really shouldn't even feel this way. You shouldn't be the rock and the hard place. She went ahead and said everything that she wanted to say and they just said, oh, that's interesting. And then just kind of moved on. They were not curious at all. And this is not the norm all the time, but it's very common.

I have a couple of providers. One's a pulmonary doctor, one's an endocrinologist at dcu, one's an endocrinologist here in the community as well, rheumatologist on the west end who recognize what we do and send patients here. They're kind of like, I'm not in my specialty field, I'm gonna send them that way. Yeah, we've got some of those. I have a GI doctor who, one of the top GI guys in town and I work with and his family, and we have great conversations about SIBO and small intestinal bacterial overgrowth. And he actually sees one of your patients. Yeah, I'm certain someone in his practice sees one of your patients and says there's no such thing as the gut microbiome. That's who he. So even in the same practice, in the same city, you can have two specialists, One who like respects what we do and one who says it's doesn't exist, it's witchcraft. Yeah. And so that's something else for people to keep aware. It takes 20 to 30, sometimes 50 years for new advances to catch on in medicine. And we're kind of because of social media and all the. How easy it is to get information now it's. The crest is peaking a little bit, but we're still. It's hasn't cut on yet. So Sears, what else do we want to say about this is a mystery illness.

Yeah.

Oh, one thing I did want to say briefly about the different terms like chronic inflammatory response syndrome. There's a thing. Asia syndrome, autoimmune inflammatory syndrome induced by juvent. That was lots of research coined by Yehuda Schoenfeld, time with the top immunologists in the world at the University of Tel Aviv. I remember reading his textbook, it's actually called Vaccines and Autoimmunity. And almost all the authors of that were non American. They're from around the world, but not the United States. But it's interesting to read that book and see adjuvants, petroleum based products, fruits and non fruit. Juvent. Silicone.

Yeah.

A breast implant.

Yeah.

And the way he described it, it was like this sounds kind of like sirs.

Yeah.

But another brilliant person, another part of the world recognizing that these innate things that aren't supposed to activate your immune system. One of the adjuvants was actually chronic infections. Strangely enough. You mentioned increased gastrointestinal permeability and then mentioned silicone and basically petroleum based products. And what do we. There's a controversy right now. Maybe you know what I'm talking about. Removing petroleum based food dyes from our food system.

Yeah.

And wait a second. It causes kids to have neurological issues. We both learned out at bcu. We were there. I remember being told about that in 96, like don't give me the red dye cause it makes kids crazy.

Yeah.

And so like the point is we connect these dots and when you say like I just said it, it's like, oh yeah, that makes sense. But unfortunately still, even today in our healthcare system, this is largely overlooked.

It's overlooked and it's a problem and hopefully it's gonna continue to improve. And I think even in the short time that we've been doing this, I mean, what is this? You've been doing it a little longer than I have, but this is year seven for me, so I guess it's not that short. But you know, I've seen SIRS evolve. I've seen the information about it evolve. I've seen treatment strategies evolve and I've seen the recognition and acknowledgement of it evolve with more well meaning practitioners out there attempting to treat it. My one, I guess, caveat disclaimer would be that this is not just mold illness. This is a complicated disease that is usually tied to more than one thing. And if someone's just trying to work you up for mold and just saying mold over and over again, or do urine mycotoxin testing only, it's not enough. Make sure you work with a certified service practitioner who knows how to do proper testing, proper treatment, and look at all the parameters that may be affecting you so that you can regain your full health. Because it is reversible until proven otherwise. That is my mantra for everything I see. Unless I have definitive evidence that it is irreversible, I assume reversibility.

My perspective on this is I think we're aligned with this. Maybe we're not. I don't know. But because of how I got here with my daughter. Yeah. Who's told she would never walk or talk or crawl. Who's born blind, who had no pigment in her retina that the corpus callosum connects the left and right side of the brain. Wasn't there, wasn't connected. She was born.

Everybody should buy your book, by the way. Buy his book. It's awesome.

Yeah. If she can go from that to like thriving, then you can do it too. And so kind of my pet peeve. I love it in a weird kind of way when people come. I've been to all these doctors and they can't help me. I'm gonna give them no hope. And I'm like, okay, great, welcome home. Yeah, you're in the right place because we never give up. Yeah. And so my point is that with my book and other things is that as long as you're breathing, your body was made designed to self heal and self repair. And you just need to find the roadblocks or blocking that process, remove them, Give your buy what's lacking. 80% of people, that's all they need to do. Look at our free stuff online, read our blogs, listen to our podcast. It's there on the website. 20% of people probably come work with us. Yeah. Because they have other things like sers or Lyme or whatever.

They'll need interventions beyond stuff that they can get their hands on on their own. They'll need testing. They'll need a qualified person to follow them and manage their career. And you know, I just had a new intake today, and this is the kind of spiel that I say to every new intake. It's like, I don't give up. I don't really know what that word means. I'm kind of a pit bull. If I don't know something, we'll figure it out. If you can't tolerate it, we'll move on to the next aspect of the plan. If we get stuck, we'll take a step back or a step forward, we'll dive deeper like you were the same way. Like that's why we're aligned in that way. But it's the body has no desire for secondary gain. Your biology is not going to lie to me. Your biology is going to tell me what it needs. And if we get labs that help, that's the biology saying, this is what I need. And then you intervene and then you clinically correlate and you just follow along.

So I want to take a transition briefly to something that we talk about in previous podcasts and belongs on our website, but is one of the mystery things which are autoimmune illnesses. And mold can be a trigger. Lyme interfections can be a trigger. Yeah. But autoimmunity by itself, you know, I've got rheumatoid, I've got inflammatory bowel disease, I've got Hashimoto's, I've got celiac. All of these are systemic autoimmune illnesses. It's not just the joints of the thyroid. In order to have an autoimmune disease, you have to have four things. Genetic predisposition, which I don't care about because I can't change. Leaky gut, which we can. The triggering event, which that's sometimes tricky to figure out what that triggering event is, and a chronic infection. And all of a sudden we have three basic things we should look for in every. Absolutely every autoimmune thing. But talk briefly about how can autoimmunity. Inflammation, you know, inflammation is the cause of all, you know. Yeah. All the. All disease whatnot. Talk about that. As far as a mystery illness.

Yeah. I mean, I don't know that I would even classify it as a mystery illness, but yet it somehow still is. And I think rheumatology, they're kind of like carpenters in the way that, like, everything looks like a nail and they hit it with a hammer. Granted, there's more of a targeted approach now with some of these drug therapies and they're going after, like, CO stimulation and aspects of the immune system that aren't just immunosuppression. So like an IL6 or TNF alpha inhibitor or something along those Lines. But as you said, final common pathway for all autoimmunity. You laid, laid that out very nicely. And this, that was all Alessio Fasano's work with celiac. And, and ultimately it then translated into this is how all autoimmunity starts. Which means that if you can reverse it, it's how all autoimmunity goes into remission. You can't cure autoimmunity. That is a disclaimer that we need to say. Because once your body sees self as foreign, it will continue to make those antibodies towards self tissue until you teach it how to go into remission, which is what we attempt to do by removing triggers, by healing infections, by reversing leaky gut. And then that immune system, like chronic infections that you might have, goes dormant. And as long as you figured out how you got there and you live your life that way moving forward, you can keep it dormant in remission for the rest of your life, which is the same damn thing as a cure. But you can flare and that's something that people need to be aware of. So if it took you to be gluten free, dairy free, manage your stress better, treat your lyme and optimize your vitamin D levels to get your autoimmunity and remission and then all of a sudden you decide that you're going to eat whatever you want and you get a tick borne illness that you don't treat and you don't care about vitamin D anymore because you're out in the sun all the time, even though you live north of the equator, you're going to probably have a flare. So the point is that it's something that you manage over time. But almost every single patient that I see that's relatively complicated has some degree of autoantibodies that are positive in their blood. That doesn't mean they have an autoimmune condition. I want to be clear there. You will manifest seroconvert auto antibodies years before clinical manifestations. And then the collective of blood markers, clinical manifestations that meet diagnostic criteria, then give you a diagnosis. Here's a different example. I had a positive ANA antinuclear antibody. I had a positive anticardiolipin that's against my mitochondrial membrane, positive anti double stranded DNA that is a lupus marker positive rheumatoid factor. I have not had any of those conditions diagnosed. I worked on SIRS heavy metals, my gut, my stress, with some quack named Dr. Hartman and all of those went into remission and they stay there. Why? Because that's how I live my life. So the key is look at the gut, which I do in every single new patient. Look for triggers, which you said it, it's hard, but you start low and go slow. Is it diet, is it stress, Is it what's going on in the gut like sibo dysbiosis. Look for infections, look for toxins, look for biotoxins, look for pollutants. And you just start to peel the onion and tease things back and you track the markers and you track the clinical course and people just get better. That is how it should work. The body itself is designed to understand the difference between self and foreign, right and wrong. That's that tolergenic T cell response that gets lost in the shuffle. If you have immune dysregulation from something as simple as chronic dysbiosis, a hollow space infection, Recurrent chronic interstitial cystitis, like bladder, chronic lung infections, chronic sinuses are all hollow spaces. Push to the limits of your immune system that flip your T reg cells into not being the ability to decipher good from bad. And then all of a sudden there's a debris field that's created. Maybe it's your thyroid. The body says let me present this as antigen. There's CO stimulation and now all of a sudden your B cells are making anti TPL antibodies. That's how this stuff happens. But it's also how you can reverse it.

And I did. I forgot you had all you, you did have a lot of auto antibodies.

I had a lot.

You were a mess. It wasn't just EoE and pre diabetes and hypertension. Hypertension, overweight. It wasn't just that.

SIBO heavy metals serves.

And how many years ago did you first get diagnosed with one of those like the EOE stuff?

EOE was probably in my early 30s. I'm 50 now, so East EOE was about 20 years ago, maybe 15 if I'm being conservative. I started my journey with you at 39. So 11 years ago is when I hit the road hard and said okay, I'm sick and this is my only way out. And that was functional medicine from like late 20s to late 30s. I didn't know it was wrong. I was just being given different diagnoses but not getting better, only getting worse. EOE was managed but not well with proton pump and budesonide eventually depict like things that weren't definitively root cause, you know, solving.

And one thing it's interesting because you have that extreme then personally I've had a positive ANA and a positive Anka. But I picked them up early. Cause I do predictive autoimmunity tests myself. It's part of the screening we do on all of our patients where you come in, you come in for optimization, you come in for wellness. You come in for I'm super sick. And we do an autoimmune screen. And I do this on myself every year, which I think everybody should do. Because you want to catch it early.

Yeah.

I think the data. If you once you have a positive authority in your body, I think within eight to 10 years, typically you develop Hashimoto's. And within positive ANA, it could be up to 15 to 20 years before you get lupus. So there's a timeframe. And so personally I do it every year and I have had a positive ana. Actually had one this year pop up. It was normal the last two times I checked. And anca, which goes along with Wegener's green lematosis, which is a bad thing to get. And that normalized over a year. So you can.

But also ibd, you can see with IBD and Kanasca.

Yeah. Actually think about that one. You're right. I knew of some gut issues, but normalized point is like if these things top positive, you don't have to wait till you get sick. Yeah. You don't have to wait till you rush out. You can actually. And that's why I enjoy doing that. I enjoy extremes. I enjoy like helping healthy people stay healthy.

Yeah.

And taking really super sick people and getting them.

Yeah. Giving them their life back.

Yeah.

Selling them a different way.

So autoimmune diseases again, we've talked about that a lot and I think next time around we will. What would our next. We'll figure it out between now and we start recording again. And our next mystery. Unless will be mass cell. Maybe. Maybe mast cell. We'll see. It might be NASA. Yeah, that'd be exciting one to talk about. Anyway, take care. Hope this is helpful. If you or loved one has a chronic health issue. No one can really put their finger on it. We have a lot of educational materials we'd love to share with you. Visit our website, you can follow us link like share, subscribe, all that kind of stuff. But this information, we do all this because we are ultimately clinicians and we want to help people and so and educate individuals. So hopefully we are helping doing that.

And if you want to see somebody who was incredibly sick, who was told that they had no hope that now thrives. Buy this man's book, read his story.

Yeah.

It's truth.

That's true. Yeah.

Hey, man.

And as a superstar.

Well, she is. But with your out and Becky's.

Yeah.

Takes a village, man.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Take care. We'll talk to you soon.

If you've lost trust in your body or in the system that was supposed to heal you, don't give up. Dr. Aaron Hartman's book, Uncurable, will help you rediscover what's truly possible. Visit UncurableBook.com to get your copy and start your healing journey today.