Overcoming Burnout And Loneliness With Nick Jonsson

Life happens, and not always the way we expect it to. Every single day we face change, stress, and uncertainty. What if you could learn to thrive no matter what life throws your way? Resilience expert Adam Markel and his inspiring guests explore breakthrough strategies to fully embrace change and build the resilience required to become change-proof.

I really hope you're enjoying this episode of the Change Proof Podcast. If you've not yet gone out and gotten your own copy of Change Proof, it's not too late. You can get your copy right now by going to changeproof.com and not only getting the book and all the bonuses there, but getting access to our proprietary resilience assessment tool. It'll just take you 3 minutes to do, and it's something that will really help you to utilize the book even more effectively to create practices and rituals and habits that will increase your mental, emotional, physical, and even spiritual resilience for the long term. Again, go to changeproof.com to get your copy today. Resilience. It's the unsung hero in every success story that you will ever hear about. And in times of massive change and disruption, the kind of rapid change that we're all experiencing as leaders, as business owners, as entrepreneurs, we have to learn how to not only increase our own resilience but that of our teams. So right now we have a powerful opportunity for you to find out just how resilient you are. Some years ago, my team and I created the resilience assessment that more than 5,000 business leaders across the globe have taken. And all you have to do to get your own free resilience leader assessment is go to resiliencerank.com. It takes less than 3 minutes, and it's our gift to you for being the leader that you already are. Other free resources and tools will accompany your score instantly. So go to resiliencerank.com and find out just how resilient you are. Hey there, it's Adam Markel. Welcome back to another Change Proof podcast episode. It's a great honor to be in the seat and to be your host today. The conversation I'm about to have, I know, is going to be spectacular. Let me tell you a little bit about the gentleman before he joins us. His name is Nick Johnson. He's a bestselling author, entrepreneur, and the co-founder of Executives Global Network, EGN, in Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia, where he leads one of Asia's most impactful peer networks for senior executives. After experiencing a personal and professional rock bottom, including the loss of his job, health, family, Nick rebuilt his life from the ground up and became a global advocate for mental health and executive well-being. His book, Executive Loneliness, became an international number one bestseller. His work has been featured in over 30 major publications, including Channel NewsAsia. Today, he empowers leaders worldwide to overcome isolation, build resilience, and lead with purpose again. I know I'm going to love this conversation and you are as well. So stay tuned and welcome to the show, Nick. Okay, Nick. So I've just read your bio. I've just shared with our audience a little bit about you. My question is, what is one thing, just one thing that is not included in your standard introduction bio that you would love for people to know about you?

Yeah, I think what people should know is that I was born on May 1st in Sweden, and that is Labor Day in Sweden and in many places around the world. And as I grew up, my parents always said, well, you're going to be a hard worker, you're born on Labor Day, and so on. And that's what they told me. But if I'm going back even earlier, I actually thought that the parades and everything that happened in Sweden on Labor Day, that it was my birthday party. So, I felt very, very special.

That's right. It was just for you.

Yeah, exactly.

That's awesome. So, Nick, do you work hard? I mean, was your mother right?

She was right. And as we'll talk about today, perhaps that mentality led me also to my knees. It led me to the burnouts of my life. And hopefully today I know a little bit better.

Well, if you don't mind, can we go back to when you didn't know a little bit better? Is that okay?

Would love to do that.

All right. So, because I think— and we're being a little cheeky about it, of course, but I mean, I think there are a lot of people that are experiencing tremendous exhaustion, depletion, anxiety, depression. People are burned out, perhaps. Yeah, I mean, I think it's an important word. I think it needs to be used. And yet I don't want to sort of miss the forest for the trees. I think people really are suffering, and I know what that's like because I've been there too. So I want to just get your experience of what that was like, and maybe even if you can, having now that the miracle of distance to look back, right? People, when they're— when we're going through stuff, and we're all going through stuff at this, you know, like different things The thing that you, if you live long enough, and hopefully you do, then you learn there's a miracle in distance and time and space. So to be able to look back and see yourself at that point, what was going on? What was your mindset? What was dragging you or keeping you in, you know, that hole, that dark place?

Yeah. And I think there's 2 parts to this story as well. It's when I, I was born in Sweden, I grew up and I lived in Sweden. And there actually, I started my career as a construction worker. I worked in construction as a painter and so on. And to work hard in those jobs, That meant actually working extra hours, and it meant signing up for working on the weekend. It meant dangerous jobs. I signed up for epoxy courses and doing nuclear power station jobs and those kinds of things. That was working hard, and that was all I knew. That was how I earned extra money. Then it was only after a motorcycle accident and having an injured neck and back, the doctors told me, you can't continue to work in construction, you need to go back to school. And that's what I did. And with that, then I had a new career, and working perhaps hard in the professional world and as an executive is completely different. And for there, it meant working extra hours and so on. And that was what I did. And that didn't lead me to a motorcycle crash. But I had my own burnout eventually. And I'm sure we'll talk about that today, Adam, because like many other leaders, perhaps I didn't have the right attitude to ask for help. I tried to find answers within me instead.

So again, if it's okay with you, let's— what did it look like then? What was a day in the life like? And back at that point, I know for me, when I talk about it too, I'm used to it. Because of course, we speak about it as part of our work in in the world today, but it's still difficult. I still find it, you know, like when I'm talking about it, that I can almost feel physical symptoms of the way I used to feel when I speak about it.

Yeah. For me, I also come to terms with it. I mean, it's part of my book and my keynotes and the work I do these days. I'm quite vulnerable and I share my story because I think I can learn from it and others can too. But it started sort of at university then, and I remember being that kind of insecure overachiever. I worked really hard to get scholarship, and I wanted to top the class. I wanted to demonstrate that I was good enough to myself especially, and then to others. Then I brought that mindset, that winning mindset in me to the workplace. And if I'm looking at my corporate career, sort of starting at account executive, then account manager, account director, general manager, managing director, looking back at that, it was quite clear to me that I sort of elbowed my way to the top. I did everything I could to achieve the targets, hit the KPIs, impress the bosses. What mattered to me was getting the right promotions and really expanding my role. And that was no external pressure. That was the pressure I put on myself. I wanted to achieve and I want to demonstrate that. So that was what was going on in my life. And with that, I was very scared of being vulnerable. I was scared of explaining, you know, the things that I didn't master. I was scared of asking for help despite having mentors and so on in my life. I just tried to prove to everyone and myself that I was good enough.

Yeah, a lot of us are built that way. You know, I suppose we could turn this program— if you and I maybe— we probably have the qualifications to have this discussion, but let's just say we don't have the letters after our name to maybe get into the full psychology of it as to why we want to please people or want to achieve anything anyway. You know, like, what's the underlying reason for that? But I do want to dive into The fact that you at some point recognized that this was either not sustainable or in the end wasn't going to get you what you wanted because it sounds like you were to that point pretty successful and I appreciate very much the way you explained elbowing your way to the top to get the right promotions. Not everybody I think even wants to admit that that's what they do. It doesn't even mean just physically elbowing your way. It's all the little passive-aggressive things. It's the manipulations. It's the nasty behavior. It's the sabotaging of other people. There's a lot of ways to define elbowing your way to the top, right? So, but you were effective at getting that done. So at some point, was that not enough? Did you have some realization, you know, the classic epiphany? Like, what did that look like?

Yeah. So once I then have reached sort of the top, then there was no more goal to strive for. You know, I had already the highest role in the company, the package that I was looking for. I remember having the big villa, big car, driver, and everything provided for. And that was what I was chasing. But once you If you have that, then it's easy to lose the motivation. And that's exactly what happened to me. And then I started to ask myself, am I happy here? And the answer was no. And then I remember feeling very lonely and isolated in the workplace, because also with every promotion, I sort of got a bigger office, and there were less people at my level, less people I could share my challenges with. And at that last promotion, I remember getting a huge corner office, and no longer was I close to my team. And therefore, I was not invited as often to come to lunch and so on. And I didn't really reflect on it. I had my own lunch and kept working on, but eventually I didn't feel a part of the organization anymore. And rather than speaking about this and going to my boss or having a conversation, I remember making my own plans. And my own plan was to resign from the job and to start perhaps some startups and doing some other things. And that was the path I was on, but only in my head. And I remember holding on to the resignation letter for about 1 year. And eventually I sent it without having a proper discussion with anyone, without even giving a chance to my boss and the company to have a conversation. And they were quite shocked and surprised when it came. And they said, well, we have other roles in America, we have roles in Dubai. Is there somewhere else you would like to work? But in my mind, I was completely shut off at that time. And I had rehearsed it 100 times that I would just move on and do something else. And of course, all those other projects turned from bad to worse as well. I lost all my money, I lost my savings. And it was just a big mess for a few years. That's what happened to me.

Yeah, it's interesting. I wrote a book in 2016 called Pivot, which is a book about reinvention and career reinvention, but it applies to a lot of things, I think. And I think something that's often associated with pivot can be this sort of, you think you're in a bad place now? Wait. I don't talk about this quite often because the pivot story has a happy ending, and I believe all the pivot stories have happy endings, just as a footnote to that. But along the way, when you decide you're going to make such a radical change— for me, it was to give up Almost 20 years of law, legal profession and people saying, ah, you're crazy and whatnot. And I ended up in the end being far better off than I was then for sure. But if you get into the— really move from 30,000 feet down to the ground, what you'll see are some periods and days and times, weeks, months, even years perhaps where it was touch and go, where things could have gone quite badly and did at times go quite badly. Yeah. So that is, uh, tell me what that looked like for you, or if you could share a little bit about— I mean, as you say, you were searching, and then in that process of searching for something, there was this sort of a cleansing out or clearing out of things like your money. That's hard, isn't it?

Yeah. And with that also, I sort of pushed away all the people who challenged me, who questioned what was happening to me. I gained a lot of weight, and people were asking. And also my relationship was falling apart. We had been married for 13 years, and when challenged about things, I filed for divorce instead. I was just not ready to have any conversations about it. So that left me even more lonely and isolated and separated then from my ex-wife who moved back to Sweden where I was born and with our son who was 5 years of age at the time. So then I was alone in Indonesia at that time without a job and jumping from project to project, job to job. And I lost my healthy habits also. I replaced my gym routine and healthy diet with fast food, pizza. Yeah, the gym membership was literally translated From a gym to a bar stool, and with that, it was slippery slope. And alcohol became sort of something I used to numb myself, to forget about the challenges. I told myself that I need to be out, I need to network, and that's why I basically tried to be out as much as possible. But that was not fruitful, and it was ruining my health. And I hit what we can say my rock bottom in 2018. It was only then, after three years of really losing everything I had in my life. That I was sort of ready to turn my life around again.

And in that moment, what was that like? Was it a moment, or was it just something that's like a slow-moving change of direction?

Yeah, it was sort of that kind of saying I was sick and tired of being sick and tired. And there was one particular thing that also scared me a lot. My left foot at this time was swollen almost like elephant foot. And I remember going to do X-rays, MRIs, blood tests. They checked for gout and all kind of stuff. They couldn't find anything wrong. He was later diagnosed by a psychiatrist as a psychosomatic illness. So basically something that had happened to me mentally. And as I looked into this more deeply, clearly it was because for 3 years I had basically declined any kind of conversations about my feelings. I was not discussing to anybody about what was happening to me. So I just basically compressed all my feelings and emotions internally, holding it all in without dealing with it, apart from using alcohol and fast food to numb it. Yeah. My feelings. And that basically expressed itself by my foot getting swollen. So that was as bad as I was at that stage. And that's when things had to change. I basically at one point then sat down a girl who I had met, I asked her to sit down on the sofa. And for the first time, I think in my adult life, I spoke honestly about my feelings to her.

Yeah, yeah, that's a pivot moment for sure. On an emotional level, if we are congested in that way, I remember reading, there were 2 books that were instrumental for me in my Also pivot because I, in my role as an attorney at the time, and it felt like I had to always be on guard. I was on guard. I was kind of trained by profession to be a warrior, to be adversarial. And so that just became a part of my identity and my persona. So to move to a softer place or a less in-control place, I'm still like a recovering control freak, you know. So to make that change of direction, for me, it was very important to read other people, to read the words of other people who've experienced things like that. or had some professional insight about it. So The Road Less Traveled by Scott Peck, Dr. Scott Peck, was the first book I read that really, really helped me. And then later on, I read a book that I want our listeners to hear this title too. It's called Healing Back Pain, and this is Dr. John Sarno. And why I'm actually bringing this book up is because it's very much a book by a medical doctor who's deceased now and helped thousands and thousands of people who have physical challenges in their life, back pain just being one of them, by the way. It's just Healing Back Pain is the title, but it's really a book about the mind-body connection and what you were just saying, Nick, how when we are, are not able to deal with our emotions, whether it's that we're repressing them or we're unaware of them or whatever that might be, that the body has this unique capacity. Body, the mind really has this capacity, the brain, to distract us from dealing with those very difficult emotions. And it's lots of ways to distract you. Frozen shoulder, knee problems, lower back pain, spasms, span, you know, like foot. It doesn't matter. It's literally a way to keep you from dealing with emotions that are— you feel inside are unsafe. And what— but once you understand that that's what's going on, it's like— I don't use the word miracle lightly, but I mean, there's something truly remarkable that shifts. And then these things, these non-structural issues physically resolve themselves. Yeah. Often because of the fact that you understand that the emotions are really what's at play. That's not easy, especially for people who are emotionally constipated, which is a lot of people, right? I mean, so as one to another, Nick, when you did experience that, that sitting down and expressing yourself, how did things begin to shift and change for you?

Yeah, it was the game changer there because first I grew up in a family home where we didn't discuss our feelings. And then as it happened, the companies I worked with all had quite directive, strong leaders But one-way leadership, you know, and didn't really have much vulnerability themselves in the organization. So therefore, I didn't know what vulnerability was, and I didn't have also the infrastructure around me with coaches and so on where I spoke up. But once I opened this discussion, and the girl who I sat down on the sofa that day is today my second wife. We married for seven years, and we have a wonderful relationship built on trust and always sharing about our feelings and so on. And back that then day, when she listened to me, she did what most people would have done. After she wanted to help and offered to help and listened with empathy, and she took me to a doctor, which was long overdue for this, and sharing honestly what was going on. I had been to a doctor just before with my foot, but when they asked me if I had any problems, if I was drinking alcohol, I just answered no to everything, right? But she told the truth to the doctor, and while I was uncomfortable sitting hiding in the corner, it was like I was exposed a second time: first to her, second to the doctor, and with that. that, it was something that was lifted from me. And I say that I felt that day like I had a V-shaped recovery because as I was exposed, there was no more secret, and the fighting and holding it all together was gone. And in the world of recovery, they call it surrender. It's a surrender moment when you sort of give up the fight, and with that, recovery can start. And with that, my journey, a 7-year journey, started, including a meeting I went to the following week in a recovery group to deal with my alcohol issue at the time. And since I walked out of that meeting, I haven't had a need or urge, and I haven't had an alcoholic drink. So that is what can happen when we sort of find ourselves in that moment of acceptance.

Yeah, I'm just struck by what you're sharing because I think often for people, recovery— what creates recovery is that moment where you stop fighting. I mean, people are— I mean, I say people, I speak just just about myself here. I was certainly resisting. I still find myself dealing with that on my own path today. Where am I resisting or fighting to be right or to have things go my way or whatever it might be? And where that fight is often, again, associated with survival, it's associated with success, masculinity. I don't know. You know, I think women fight a little bit less, but I'm sure there are many exceptions to that general statement or stereotype. But that surrender and acceptance and willingness to stop fighting is really a predicate to recovery, isn't it?

Yeah, it certainly is. And it is about trusting the process, right? And many times when we are in a bad place, perhaps we lost trust in other people and we lost trust in ourselves. And I remember when I was at my darkest place and I felt that the world had done me wrong, people had done me wrong, and it was everyone else's fault. And I saw a quote then by Mark Twain, and he said, the more I get to know people, the more I like Like my dog, and I remember printing out that quote. Then I added to it under. I said, and I don't even like dogs. That's what I wrote. So so that was the state I was in, and and when that is how you think about people, then it's very very difficult. But once you have surrendered and you realize that it's not only on your terms anymore, and you just start to trust the process, and you trust the doctor when when they're giving you something, you trust the recovery program, and you let others do that, then it's so peaceful. It's so nice. Then you can finally. find a flow of life in that. And it's of course also to perhaps connect closer to the source, the universe, or whatever you want to call spirituality. Some refer to it as God, others don't like that. But that was also to me a source here. It was really to at least accept that I'm part of something bigger and just to deflate my ego a little bit as well.

So executive loneliness, this loneliness, I want to get into that because while we have the time, your book talks about that and this is something that you're well known for. today. So maybe define it. And let's talk about what's happening in the world, especially a post-COVID work world that you and I both work in regularly.

Yeah, executive loneliness, all is all about that isolation in the workplace, that the fact that perhaps we don't trust someone to talk to about our challenges, we are scared of asking for help because we're scared to be judged. Or like in my case, I was scared that I won't get the next promotion, I won't get the bonus if I'm opening up about something I'm scared about. And the issue here is that many times it can be very, very small issues that eventually become big. And I have analyzed this inside out. And if I look back at my corporate career, when I was at the top, when I resigned from that job, the incident that was the foundation of my resignation was that we were bidding for a new project. And I was good in business development, I was good in communication, and so on. But I wasn't necessarily good good in Microsoft Excel and the formulas and so on. And in this bidding process, there was a lot of numbers, and I was anxious that I made some mistakes. And I wanted actually someone who was stronger in numbers and formulas to check it, but I didn't have the guts to go and ask for help because I thought, well, as part of my role, I need to be good at numbers. So if I expose myself here, maybe something will happen in the future. And the fact that I didn't ask for help in that time, I carried this with me the whole time, and I started to think there must be some problems in the formula. Maybe they find a mistake, and if they If I make a mistake, then I will be terminated. And that is exactly what executive loneliness is. And it's about the company culture. And we as leaders can set up a company culture where people feel safe to be vulnerable. And I'm relinking it with psychological safety here, of course, as well. But executive loneliness really is when we don't have someone to speak to about our challenges, who don't dare to open up and asking for help.

So let's, you and I, because we both work as, in addition to being speakers, keynote speakers, we do consulting work. And that's a great honor to be embedded within the organization and its leadership teams because it's like being asked to join a family. I mean, it may be a dysfunctional family, but like all families are. It's not that— it really isn't that unusual anyway. But let's say you're in that family for some period of time and you recognize that there is this culture that you're talking about where people are lonely. People don't know it or don't admit it. They're keeping their cards very close to the vest because again, they're afraid. They don't trust. They don't provide feedback, so they're not regularly getting feedback or giving it in a way that's healthy for everybody. And I'm describing a very large endemic issue. But if you were going to make a change or propose something that would help that culture to slowly shift, I don't believe that there's a V-shaped recovery for that type of a thing. I think it's a slow slog. They either are willing to put in the work to do it, because when we're talking about our services, we never sell them as sort of like instantaneous solutions because I think that would be misleading to say the least. But I mean, you can see great changes happen suddenly, can happen when people realize something has truly shifted. But to you, I'd ask, we're thinking about advice in that arena. Is there something you focus on first? Is there a sequence or a sort of a, even a philosophy that you share with the leaders that you need to get buy-in from, right? Because I mean, at our work, we know you need a champion. You need budget, of course, but you need a champion. You need people that are going to lead this change and champion it. Otherwise, they'll spend money on things and/or initiatives and workshops and whatnot and get very little out of it, right? Which is unfortunately, I think I heard this old joke about, and it wasn't Mark Twain that said this because I don't know that consultants were a thing in his day, but the consultants are like seagulls. They come in, they fly in, they shit all over everything, and then they fly out, fly away. So, we like to do better work than that. I know you do too. So, back to you on, is there a way that you frame that conversation to help people to understand that the culture must change, but also here's what it looks like to start that process?

Yes, absolutely. And I did some surveys and interviews around the book when Executive Loneliness came out in 2021. And what I found out was that about 30% of the people I surveyed, actually the senior leaders, then found themselves isolated or suffering from loneliness in the workplace. So, with this, I realized it is a major issue. It wasn't only me who had those feelings. And the last question, though, was a box for people to tick if they want to be interviewed. And I interviewed a lot of leaders for the book, and the book is full of stories. And I can mention one particular woman I interviewed for the book. And this was a lady, a managing director for a big international bank in Singapore. So a woman in a man's world, highly successful, 2 children, husband, all the perks that you can imagine, including a nice house in Singapore, driver, car, and so on, apartment, gym membership, looking good and having everything. So many people will aspire and look up to her. And when I interviewed her for the book, as soon as we sat down, she basically held her hand on me and she started to cry. And she said, before I even could ask a question, She said, Nick, I rehearsed my own suicide twice. So she had been waiting for this moment to share with someone, and she took the chance for this because she knew about my story then. She knew about the topic for the book and so on. And I gave her a moment to cry, and I held my hand back on her, and then she started to speak. And then she said, Nick, I can't imagine that I said that. And what was I thinking? So she was basically surprised with herself, shocked with herself that she's gone down the path to rehearse her own suicide twice, and she couldn't. At that time, explained very vividly to me exactly the location, the building was going to be, the date, the time, and so on. So this was very, very real for her. What wasn't part of her plan was that I suddenly would reach out and ask for an interview about this book. But what I learned, and I'm studying now psychology actually at the school, I learned that people who are at that stage are actually open for other solutions. Ending their life doesn't have to be the only solution. So if you give them another chance, another option, they will take it. So she here jumped at another chance to speak about it. She saw that this was a What happened then was that I had a counselor on standby who came and talked to us, and with his permission, we called also the husband who came and joined. And the husband was shocked and surprised and couldn't understand what was going on here, but also relieved that we had broken this pattern. And what happened with this case, and the reason I share that, is that she later on took some sabbatical leave, and she continued to do the deep work on herself and identify what happened here. How did it go so far? And just like in my case, it was something minor. It was in her case also. In my case, my fall was a spreadsheet and some formulas. In her case, she had a small accident that gave her a small scar on her lip, and she had a small surgery and a few stitches. And she said, when I came into the office, I felt ugly. And she said that she started to distance herself from her colleagues. She didn't feel comfortable to go out for business lunches with clients, and at home then, she told her husband or dared her husband to leave her, pushing the husband away. So suddenly, just after a few weeks, she started to really start sitting by herself, a bit like me in the office, not going out with colleagues for lunch. And before she knew it, these kind of thoughts came and crossed her mind and into her head. And that's how she explained the story, and her story is in the book. And I also have then continued my discussions with her, and eventually, she had enough courage to share her story in an all-hands meeting with this bank in front of everyone who had no idea that she'd gone through this. But as she shared her story, I can say, and that was a V-shaped culture change over a day. As she shared her story to everyone, people were crying, coming up, giving her hugs afterwards. Colleagues in her team came up to her and shared what they had been going through. Some other senior board members also shared that they'd gone through some difficult times in And as she said, the culture changed overnight, from closed doors to open doors, where people were really warm and open to each other. So, magic can happen. But the point with this story is it can also go bad very quickly with small little things we don't speak about, we don't talk about. These small things, we need to grab them right away before we start to isolate them, before it can get even to a worse place. So, that is just one story, Adam, and I'm happy to share more on how I'm working then with teams on overcoming this as well.

Yeah. I'd love to talk about psychological safety. I just contribute to the mix here. I gave a TED Talk some years ago where I shared a time in my life when I was so on guard and holding on so tightly to this persona that I ended up in the hospital on a Saturday instead of being at our son's baseball game and having numb tingling in the tips of my fingers. And so I'm sweating uncontrollably. My heart is pounding so hard it doesn't even feel like it's in my body, you know? And my wife is there and we're waiting and waiting and waiting for a doctor. And the doctor, the first thing he says, he comes in, he says, Mr. Markel, there's nothing wrong with your heart. You're not having a heart attack. What you're experiencing is fill in the blank, right? And he said, you're having an anxiety attack. You're having a panic attack, which is a term, was a new term for me. I hadn't heard that term at that point in my life. And so I share this story on the TED stage. I get a, you know, The video is published on YouTube and gets a lot of views, and then I'm contacted by a woman. When I speak about this, I give her the name Denise. It's not her actual name, but she's the CEO of a hospital, big hospital. And she says, we, you and I, I would love to talk with you. I need to talk because I had the same thing happen to me. And so we set this call up and I ask her a few questions and she says, you know, you and I, I think we're very, very similar. And I said, yeah, tell me more. And she starts to tell me a little the details of her life and whatnot. I said to her, it must have been odd for you to sort of roll up to your own hospital and go through your emergency room and everybody to see you the way, in the condition that I remember being in. It was pretty rough. This is what she said to me. I drove a long way, a long way, a long distance to get to a hospital where nobody would recognize me. And that was her answer. With those symptoms, thinking she was having a heart attack, she drove herself to a hospital far away that people would not know her. And so then I realized, yeah, we are very similar, you and I. My advice to her was advice that I was given by my wife, who's brilliant, and as she always has sort of a very grounded approach to things— not perfect, nobody is, I'm not certainly— very grounded. And when she said to me after that event in my life that I should talk to people, I should tell my— I should tell the other lawyers, or I should speak to somebody who might understand what— and I wanted to have nothing to do with it. I wouldn't talk to her. I wouldn't talk to anybody. I refused. In fact, I— 2 weeks later, instead of being at my son's baseball game, that for me, I ended up in my office. That's where I was on a Saturday instead of being there 2 weeks later. Because to me, the answer to the situation was not to figure out why I ended up in the hospital. The answer was to work harder so that I would avoid ever having to go to the hospital. I said, I'm in the hospital, you know, because I'm worried. So the way to relieve my My worry is just to be better at the game. Win the game, then you don't have to worry. Simple. So this all made sense to this lady. She was wired similarly to me and similarly to, I think, to you and the people you're talking about. So I said to her, you need to get your team together, your senior leadership team together. It was a group of about 10 people. And you have to tell them, this is the prescription, right? You have to get them together and tell them about this event that occurred. She was very adamant, as I was, that this would not be something she was interested in doing, you know, and she said some other things I won't say on the air. But I was very tenacious. I wouldn't give it up. And I told her, it's the only way I'm going to help you. So if you don't do it, that's fine. Of course, I wish you the best. So she did. She did agree and got her team together. And what's remarkable, Nick, is it's a very similar story, very similar outcome anyway, to the story you shared. Which is that when she told her team about this, they were very empathetic, as you would imagine. a great deal of understanding and compassion, all that stuff. Nobody'd be surprised to hear that, right? But the thing that was a bit surprising, very surprising actually, was that these folks began to tell her, after she told them those things, they began to share with her some of the things that were going on in their real life outside of work, but even in work, but things that this lady CEO had no clue about. No clue that some of these people she'd been working with for many years and did not know about things to do with health issues they were having or challenges with their children or elderly parents or money worries, like things, really important things. And so what ended up being sort of the through line to all of that was that her transparency with them created the most important thing that you brought up earlier. And I want to get your thoughts on this word. It created trust in and among those team members because they trusted that they could be real with her because she was real with them. And that was quite an instantaneous shift in something that she'd been working many, many years to establish and really hadn't done well at. So when we talk about trust, we talk about psychological safety, which to me is synonymous with that word. We come up with new words for things, right? That's part of the way we evolve. But what are you learning? Because I know you're studying on this. What are you learning about creating psychological safety in the workplace when people are People, frankly, they don't trust that the person that they answer to or the, you know, others in the organization won't just decide to stick the knife in them. I don't know. I'm using the most extreme example, right?

Yeah, I think you're spot on here, Adam. I think there's a big lack of trust in the workplace these days, especially between the different generations. We have the older generation and younger generation, and they don't get along so well. And I think it's because it's superficial what we are doing in the workplace. You know, we're just saying hello. We have very, very Shallow conversations. We don't actually know exactly what you said. We don't know each other. So the first that we need to do is actually get to know each other. And I do a lot of team building events with leading MNCs especially, and teams, leadership teams. And the CEO has to be there. And where we basically are getting to know each other. It starts with team building. And what I typically do then, the first hour is sort of my hour when I share my story a bit. What I shared today, I shared a story, a couple of the stories that I shared with you today to set the stage here basically for people to be vulnerable. And as I'm the one who's leading the workshop, I have to be vulnerable first, and then it's over to them. And then they divide them in pairs, and they need to share what you asked me also, Adam. You asked me, what is it that people don't know about me? But I actually asked them, what was the most difficult point in your life? What did you go through? To take them into a challenging place and share something that people didn't know. Because once we do that, you will start to see a lot of tears. They're connecting heart to heart, which they never have done before. And once we have that connection, when they come back into the workplace, they don't They don't just see the other person as someone behind a desk. They see them as a human being because they know what that person is going through. And that is just the first step that we go through to set that stage and the trust. But we keep working on that over a day or over several days. So we call it team building. We call it that we are making each other better by getting to know each other. And we do that by setting different steps and formulas to actually force it out because people naturally won't share this stuff anyway. And I just want to say also, I don't believe in oversharing. I don't believe in being over-vulnerable, to come into your office and scream out all your problems to everyone. Then they will start gossiping and feel overwhelmed and so on. But to do this in a safe space, when we do a workshop that we actually get to know each other, I think that's fundamental for any team if you expect them to be what we're talking about, a team that can deliver and that you feel safe in.

Yeah. And maybe this is the sort of a— we'll cut one or two questions more. But in a remote world, or in a world where remote working has become quite normal, and even hybrid situations are also frequently found, what's your advice? And I know this is a difficult question, but I do just want to get your insight on this because it is challenging that we see loneliness. I mean, loneliness is on the rise. Many statistics have shared that, not just executives, by the way, but loneliness across the board. I personally think that The pandemic exacerbated that. I don't think there's anything insightful. That's quite obvious. But the remote world, which is beneficial in many ways, and I've worked remotely for many, many years, is a challenge to what you're talking about, isn't it? To really be able to get to know one another, to not be— you just can't walk across the hall, sit down in somebody's office and say, hey, can we talk? Or in the break room or at lunch or whatever it might be because you're 150 miles away from someone else, you see them through this little box, you know, you're staring at a little box all day long, you know, one little box to another little box, you get in a little box, all that, all that good stuff. That's pretty lonely, can be lonely. So when you're advising teams on how to incorporate and bring, bring those people in, what thoughts, if you've got any thoughts formulated on that challenge, I'd love to hear it.

Yeah, I think there's 2 parts to it. If we are a hybrid or virtual teams, even more important if we have the capability to get together, even if it's once a year or so in person, and then do it in a meeting Don't just do team bonding. Team bonding is going out for karaoke night and having some fun. That's important too. But do some proper team building first. Do the deep stuff that we discussed here. Get vulnerable with each other. And if you as a leader don't know how to do it, then, Adam, you and I can help the teams. And that's what we help teams with, to help them to get this on the table. Because if we connect deeply, even if it's once a year, we'll remember that. And when we see that box on the screen, we don't only see them as a box because we know what they are going through. We see them as a human being. And that can last for a long time. time. So I think that's one aspect that we can work on. But then also, I think it's up to ourselves. It's about self-leadership. And I talk a lot about social health. There's been— in the past, it was physical health. We start to understand that we need to exercise. Then we started to talk more about mental health. But what I really talk about now is social health in this hybrid world and digital world, social health. And just like we need to be disciplined by exercising or moving a little bit every day, we need to look after our social health. So if someone is working 100% remotely, remotely, then we need to be disciplined to block 1 or 2 hours every day for some social health. And that can be one day going for a walk in the forest with a good friend who we trust and who we are vulnerable with. Another day, it can be to support a charity or belong to a club. And I'm now 50 years of age, and no matter where I go, I look up clubs and associations, and I have memberships all around the world where I do belong to sports clubs, associations, swim academies, and so on, especially because I'm an introvert working remotely. So I'm very comfortable to work at home, working remotely. But so I need to make sure I put this in the calendar and I just show up because then I get to meet people and I get much healthier. So we need to be quite proactive about that, I believe.

We do. And it really is true. There's so many ways we could approach that topic. Maybe we'll do a part 2 for this podcast because I would love to talk to you more about social health. And I am myself also an introvert, so I understand if you don't put it on the calendar, The things that you talk about, you know, we should get together, we should have drinks, we should have coffee, whatever it might be, or whatever the thing is on the calendar, music or art or something. You don't put it on the calendar, it just doesn't happen. I don't know, for the people listening to this, you may not— maybe you're in your second decade or your third decade of life. It took me probably 3 to 4 decades to actually learn this lesson. It's, it's very— I think it is truly wisdom, and it's not from me, I'm just passing it along. But truly, if you do not put it in your calendar, it will not happen. So if something is important to you, put it on your calendar. If it's not important to you, then don't pretend it's important to you. You know, there's a little coaching advice, right? We only have so much energy, and why, why squander your energy, waste your energy on things that you say are important but really in actuality aren't? I just got to tell you, Nick, you're an easy person to talk to, and I talk to a lot of people. So I've enjoyed this very much, and I would love to have our teams create a second opportunity for us to continue our conversation, man. So thank you.

Very good. I very much enjoy this as well, Adam.

Awesome. I just want to— it'd be— I don't want to end the podcast without asking you for your personal definition of resilience. That's my last question to you.

Well, as I'm studying psychology now, I believe that the most important with resilience is, as I say, you fall on your face many times in your life, but as long as you fall forward, then you can get up and you can continue your journey. And I think, you know, we're all gonna fall over so many times in our life that we might just accept it. And it is what we learn there. And it's a lot of talk about failing forward or learning forward or whatever it takes, but just keep moving. That's all it takes. And, and share about it. To wrap up with what we talked about today, be vulnerable and share what you learned so that you can help others as well.

Yes. And time and distance, time and space, you will see it has this magical way of making everything just perfect. Like you've ended up exactly where you ought to be because those things have occurred, not in spite of them. And so it's— in any event, once again, Nick, thank you so much to our community. Of course, there'll be a postscript you guys will stick around for. But if you want to find out more about Nick, our show notes will have information about him as a speaker in his work in consulting, about his book from 2021, but also the— I think the new book is coming out too. So lots of great stuff there. And if you've got questions or comments, you can go to adamarkel.com/podcast to leave your comment or question there for Nick or myself. And lastly, as we, you know, just really make the request that you can rate the podcast if you take the moment to do that. I know it is a moment, another yet another moment out of your life, but it is super helpful to us because it helps the algorithm to point other people in the direction of this content. And that we just can say nothing but thank you for. With that, I'll say ciao for Bye for now. Thanks again. Yeah, well, no surprise. I don't know, this podcast was rescheduled a couple of times, but we kept after it, and I'm so glad that we did. I just feel so good that this conversation ultimately happened and that we all got to experience it together. Yeah, Nick is a very— he's very easy to talk to, and you've probably heard that. I try to vibe with all the guests, but as you would imagine, not everybody is— we don't fit. Our little puzzle piece doesn't fit with every other puzzle piece. That wouldn't make any sense. I think we are all pieces of one big puzzle. Here's a spiritual segue. So there's no missing pieces. There's no pieces that don't belong, that don't have a place. But I don't know that every single piece is meant to fit together with each other, with, with every other piece. And I think we know that there's some people we just can vibe with and have things in common. And we just know we could be friends. We could, you know, we could have a relationship, you know, over the long haul because there are where you You feel simpatico with somebody, and sometimes I truly believe you know that instant. You know there's that old love at first sight kind of thing. I think that was blessed to meet when I met my wife and we began to spend time together. It was sort of that very, very quickly, very intense love right out of the gate. And I know sometimes that happens. Sometimes it takes time for those things to happen, and certainly that love has evolved over time, so it has not stayed the same. Yeah, all of that is true, and I will say that in this. This was just the perfect fit for me in this moment. I hope you feel like it met you exactly where you are in this moment. And maybe you know somebody— if this isn't, you know, this conversation around mental health and about loneliness and around how we, we spend so much of our time in a state of guarding, guarding what's ours or guarding what we've worked to make ours— if that's not really a relevant inquiry for you at this point, maybe you know somebody who is. Who is in that state, that you could tell that they're just on edge or exhausted, even burned out from the effort it takes to hold that, to protect, always be being impervious to things that could make you otherwise vulnerable. Yeah, that is a lonely path, and it may seem like that's the only path to get to where you want to be, to succeed in however it is that you define that term. I'm reminded of something that I read almost every single day from Emmet Fox, which is a metaphysician Yeah. He's a physician from many, many years ago, and his books are really impactful, have been impactful to me in my life. And he says that we can sometimes— we all want to be successful, but if we try so hard to be successful, we're almost certain to make sure of missing it, that success. We try so hard and make hard work of it when the sort of the riddle or the answer to the riddle or the paradox is that we have to make easy work of it. work of it, that we can make light of our work without it being lazy or dropping the ball or losing our focus. We have to be able to be focused and be intense and to be hardworking and all of those important qualities, and yet be loose at the same time, be light, be able to laugh off the annoyances and the inconveniences, because otherwise we are truly making hard work of it. And over time, That the toll that that takes on us is pretty intense. And that's what Nick was sharing today because it takes its— the toll on us in different ways. Some people really hit the rock bottom. They do. They wipe out physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually. And others just lead lives of quiet desperation or lead angry lives or lives where they are lonely for such a long time and contemplate awful endings. And so So it's vitally important that we have these conversations, that we discuss things. And so to find the right partner for that discussion today was just perfect. And I'm very, very grateful to the people that put this together and to Nick, of course, and to being able to just sort of turn on the camera and the microphone and be able to talk about important things as though we've known each other for 10 years or something. So I hope you love the episode, and if you do know somebody that would also really get something out of it, please feel free. share the episode with friends, family member, colleague, whomever. And we'd love to hear from you as well. Your comments, your thoughts, your ideas, your questions, whatever that might be. And with that, I just say I wish you a beautiful day, evening, wherever we find you at this moment. Blessings to you, and thank you so much. We'll see you again.

Thanks for listening. We hope you now have even more tools and greater insights to build resilience and become change-proof. Remember to leave a review on Apple Podcasts and you may be featured in an upcoming episode. For more resilience tips and strategies, including support for building change-proof teams, visit adammarkel.com. To get your own free resilience assessment, go to rankmyresilience.com.