RED FLAGS! Switch Companies You're Selling For? Interview w/ Roofing Insights Dmitry Lipinskiy

Welcome back to the channel. I am joined today by none other than Dimitri Lipinsky of Roofing Insight. Dimitri, thanks for being here in your studio.

Absolutely.

So today's topic. I wanted to save a controversial topic for an interview with you because why? Because I love that you have the courage to disrupt things in the industry. So funny enough, I think I shared with you. I filmed a video that I was hesitant to put up about people. People not getting paid. The next day, you posted a video about commissions not being paid. This was eight months ago. I rewatched it this morning to prepare for this. And in today's video, I really want to get to the bottom of the deep pain that many sales reps experience in this industry by not being treated right. From owners, you and I hear the horror stories. So let's say I'm a sales rep, and I'm starting to question whether or not the company I've aligned myself with is the right fit. What do you feel like is the number one red flag that a sales rep should be aware of that might say, maybe this isn't the right place to call home?

Sure. If you're the sales rep, I would say number one red flag would be not seeing production on point. You know, you're in sales, someone else have to produce what you sell. I have so many guys coming to me, and they would have business owners stalling them for eight months, nine months, 10 months. I'm like, what was happening in eight months? Why jobs were not being built? So if you go to work and you sell and you don't see, like, for me, everything have to be produced as fast as it possible can be. So if you sold 100 jobs and you don't see the business owners hiring more crews, production managers, he's not investing in his business. Who do you think gonna do the job? What's your cancellation rate is gonna be? What's your collection rate is gonna be? What's your rate of piss customers gonna be? You're in sales. It's all gonna be backfiring in you. And I don't understand the sales guys who kind of look at them almost like, okay, company runs here. I'm here. You part of the program. You part of the team. And you know, you will often say you are only as strong as your weakest link. So if that company is not production company, you're gonna be weak. You're gonna be you. You're gonna take that blame for that production team so you can be superior, excellent sales guy. But if they absolutely suck at window jobs, if you don't see, listen, if you come to work and you see five people who work there and you don't see anyone who's actually have knowledge about the windows, and you just sold the windows, what do you think gonna happen? Like, stop being delusional. You already know the answer deep inside. You don't want to answer it to yourself. So I see a lot of sales guys, they see the problems, but they refuse. It's just like marriage, just like everything else. If you see things that you will not settle if they don't change, what are you waiting for? You're wasting time. You're procrastinating instead of like going head on. And I study Ponzi schemes. I love American trade show. And if you read the stories, it's usually, I mean, yeah, someone can steal million bucks, but people around them usually are aware if something is off, there's just not an alert.

Be on alert, be on alert. I mean, it's easier said than done for many. So I'll give you an example. This week I get an email from a guy. He says, should I switch companies? And I really don't like being in this position because you and I both know from running, I mean, you were an owner, I ran a team. There's this person's side, this person's side, and then the truth. And he says to me, the owner I'm selling for won't give me a production date for a gutter install. He says, we'll get there when we get there. This has been three times that the sales rep has put his own neck on the line to serve a homeowner with integrity. And the company didn't have anyone show up. And from what I gathered, it sounded like the owner was bothered. Like, why would you bother me with this gutter job even though it's taking care of a customer? So that context, what do you feel like is the acceptable way for a sales rep to gauge whether or not how that customer is being treated or production being fulfilled upon is acceptable? Where's the line? What's acceptable? What's not acceptable?

That scenario is not acceptable. What's your value proposition? You're giving them price, but you also give them, I mean, whether you're buying a car, whether you're buying TV or furniture, the delay, the lead time is always part of the buying process. Under what circumstances do you guys feel like you can tell your homeowner, I don't know when we're gonna install it? I would never work for a company who don't know I mean, when we're running our business, it's usually two, three, four weeks lead time, you know, like you should have on the board. What's your lead time for different trades? Like if you go to my CRM, I will tell you that the siding is two months out just because it takes one month to get a siding.

Yeah.

So you should, as a business, you should give your homeowners value proposition. Okay, here's our prices, here's our lead times. And I don't care if it's eight months. You still give them eight months.

Gotta be honest.

Yeah, absolutely. That's a red line right there. If the owners don't know if. If production manager or owner do not care when he's gonna do the job. Yeah, tell him to call the homeowner and explain it to the homeowner that you don't know. I'm not making that call.

I'm sorry. I'm not either. And that's hard, by the way. I mean, maybe you've experienced sales reps trying to sell and when you can't believe in it and you're questioning the production, you're like, oh, no. Because it's that, it's the reps integrity on the line. So that being said, I hear from reps a lot to think that the grass might be greener. Right. So I know that this isn't a real scenario, but you have to pick one. Pay or production that's handled appropriately and customers are taken care of. You're a sales rep, your livelihood depends on it. Which one's more important to you?

Well, I don't think, first of all, nobody's getting paid if production is not there. And here's the thing. Many people go after promise, but you need to understand, if production is not there, you will not get it all. You will get something. Why do we have so many stars and star, like, how do you call it? Star? Starve and stock and starve.

Feast and famine.

No, no, no. It's where they give you just a little bit. Enough.

Oh, gotcha. Keep them starving, basically to keep production.

Coming in stock and starved. Why do you think so many companies like. And I interview those guys, you know, selling 1.5 million, getting paid 60k and then settling for another 10k. It happens all the time. So on paper it looks good. Yeah, 50, 50 split. Or this and this. Yeah, they promised you the mountains, but at the end, you getting paid as a used car salesman with a triple amount of stress you took and then you're gonna quit. So for me, if Production is not there. It cannot work. It will never work, period. It's impossible.

Yeah, that's a good answer. So deal breaker number one, production. What would be another red flag from a sales rep vantage point that where I'm at is not a good fit.

For me if the owner is not engaged or if he doesn't have good manager who's engaged. I see so many guys like what's happening in the roofing industry. We do have a lot of companies who've been around for years. I would say number one, red flag in the storm restoration industry is as cliche as it sounds. How many times they have changed names? Because when someone's telling me that they've been in business for 18 years, but that LLC is eight months, like I can't go to bed without asking, like, can you please explain one more time? As a matter of fact, people that we called out on our channel, I remember we have this Shane guy from Colorado, he scammed a lot of guys like over 100k. So he actually opened telemarketing company. But he was claiming 18 years business and he would start and I remember recording phone calls with him. I'm not a scam, I'm not a scam. Like we put him on a blast because today I can read people. And he was like, I've been in this industry for 18 years. Where's your company? What did you do for 18 years? So when someone's telling me they've been doing it for decade or two decades, but their LLC is brand new, that's a red flag. But also don't take their words at face value. In this industry we have so many people who are up and down, up and down. So oftentimes you'll deal with a business owner, he might have done 20 million in 2017 after the storm and he's selling you the dream. You know, we're a 25 million dollar company. The reality is last year he might do only two. So the problem is the business owners are all over the place mentally. They're not engaged. And I see actually epidemic of those business owners, they kind of live in the past. They have that one good year and now it's their credibility. So when they talk to you, they only talk about that. They don't talk about one star rating that they have everywhere. They don't talk about that. They only have one employee today. So ask yourself who you go to work for and be honest with yourself, don't be delusional. Because oftentimes we go to work for this celebrity who built $20 million before, but we don't realize he's not the same person anymore. There is such a, I mean look at NBA players. There's a prime years and there's after. Like where I've met NBA players who work at Wells Fargo bank and trust me, I can freaking beat them in game of basketball. Probably will be very hard for me, but I can circles around them. So sometimes those guys, because they're really good at sales if they want to, and those usually are the hardest and the most horrific stories that we hear is someone who kind of knew the game wants to get back in and all they do just screw a whole bunch of people because it's not their prime, their mental game is not there. Now they're doing drugs, alcohol, it's a lifestyle. They do it for the wrong reason. There is a reason they failed before, but they will never tell you. And I see so many guys like that. And we follow them thinking that we're gonna be building 20 million dollar company. They're in the fumes of their old glory and we just will fall for that.

And clearly you and I both have a. We share, we're wired different, we have different approaches. But at the end of the day we share a common value of protecting people and bringing honor and integrity to the people in this industry who are doing business the right way, who have families that are relying on them and taking care of customers. And with that light, I see a lot of sales reps that get burned and a lot of them, it's their first year, they see online what's possible and they get excited and they jump in and they get sold by an owner. What are some things like advice. What advice would you give to a new sales rep to help sniff out the BS before it's too late? In terms of honor, in terms of integrity, in terms of production, and in terms of actually getting paid what they were promised. How do you sniff it out? Because you said you could read people really well. What cues are you looking for?

Look what kind of people they are. In business, I would stay away from spenders, anyone who likes to shine, anybody who's trying to prove how much they worth. Like, you know, gold chains if they're Gucci. I mean you can look at Instagram accounts and you can see who is flashy. You don't want to work with flashy people in this business. This business is profitable, but it's not as profitable as people think. So if person have to have Louis Vuitton bag or if he has to Have Rolex watch, and I'm not against Rolex watches. But if he runs four or $5 million company and he lives $1 million a year lifestyle around, you know, if he isn't. Because the thing is math, numbers don't lie, right? The best people in business, they're not flashy. Like, I meet 30, $40 million business owners and I don't know what's in their garage. Like, it's not of my business. I don't like, those are the best of the best, but they're conservative. You want to work for the conservative business owner who keeps who puts money in a business and you can see who does and who doesn't. So if you go work for a guy who has a Rolex but does not have an equipter, does not have one employee, it's all 1099. Ask yourself, is he invested? If all goes south, what this guy is gonna do? Like, for him, it's very easy to close doors, move on. You know, for him to screw you, it's just like, okay, unplug you from oculinks and you're done. So those are red flags. Are they conservative people? Business people? Do they invest in their business? Are there spenders? If they're spenders in the personal life, they will be spenders in the business life as well. And if they, if you work for a spender, trust me, he will be spending your money as well. And that's the biggest reason we have, you know, like two sort of contracts in here. 12 million dollar company. We did a full story for our magazine. I interviewed nine people working for that company. Not a single one of them made over 100k, but almost all of them made over a million bucks. So usually story goes like 60k month and month away. And you have an owner who likes to flash. He lives in California, nice luxury lifestyle style. I'm pretty sure he's doing well for himself, but not his salespeople.

Yeah, I hate hearing these stories. I had a guy reach out, I'm sure you had this too, working in Lake Charles. And he was owed over 100,000 by his company. And he said production was completely halted, customer complaints were coming in, they just didn't have cash flow to survive. So how can a sales rep kind of gauge whether. Or not. Let's just tackle the elephant in the room. Not getting paid. If you're not getting paid, get out. You need to. Then that's the easy answer. We're going to get to the more complex answers to how to do that. While Protecting yourself and collecting what you can. But before we get there, what indicators or how, if you were in the shoes today of interviewing a company, because so many sales reps think that they need to be interviewed, I always say interview the company. You have the right to ask questions. How do you gauge from an owner whether or not he or she is actually going to pay you?

Sure. During the interview, during the signing of the agreement, I would ask questions like something that I can make them accountable later. What's the latest? I can wait here for my commission only check. And let's say they say two months. All right? Write down. I would honestly write down those answers. Turn around, sign it, and then don't drag it for too long. Don't drag it for eight months. After two months or approaching two months, be proactive. Come to them. Hey, remember during the interview you told me there's no way you're gonna be waiting more than two months? Well, it's been three months, and I'm waiting for $25,000 check. I mean, the worst case scenario, you will be out of two months out of your life that you spent for them, and hopefully you got something for. Let's say you got 10 grand, okay, 5 grand a month. Not. I mean, there's 90% of people out there who will never see 5 grand a year, right? So there's so many poor people in the world. So it's not bad. Like you, you gave someone two months of your life, you got ten grand. Not too bad. But if you let it go to 8 months and they owe you 80 grand, shame on you. Yeah, like you, you saw it coming to you, was hoping for whatever. So make them accountable. And the advice I would give is, you know, I have five kids, and it's lesson from the kids. The kid who is persistent, who all, you know, like kids when they want something. You know, if kid wants to watch a movie or candy, he's gonna be all over you, okay? And he, you know, kids will always get what they want. If they're persistent enough, you'll just do it because you don't want to deal with them anymore. In sales, the same thing. Business owner knows who's on his team. Persistent, persuasive, and all over you. Like, I remember when we were hiring crews back in the day, in my general contractor years, we have drywall guys. Like, I swear, you give him a check, like, less than 10 minutes, it's cashed. I don't freaking know where they're cashing them. But, you know, you're rednecks living paycheck to paycheck. You give them a check and immediately, like my boss used to joke about it all the time. If you have people working for you like that, who's always at your door, they just have to get paid on Friday. Your owner will know that this is your personality. You have kids, you have lifestyle. He can't mess with you because you're gonna be gonna. If you show them like a lot of sales guys do, if you show them that you kind of don't need it like you, then he's gonna treat you like that and he's gonna give you minimum wage. So if you show them that you need money and you always ask for it and you work your ass off and you make it clear. You make it clear, dude, I need a solid paycheck this week. I sold five jobs for you last week. I don't know why you're not producing it. You figure it out. But if you're not paying me this week, I will have to go look for another job because I have family to feed. Some of your other sales guys, they might not have this problem. I do. Guess what? That business owner have to go home and figure out, okay, how do I produce his jobs or I'm gonna lose him. If business owner, you have leverage early on. If you're a talented sales rep, you have leverage for the business owner to keep you. And he will have to keep paying you. But if he Listen manipulators. The same goes with a relationship between boys and girls. Guys who figure out girls, like, why do you think girls are dating jerks and assholes for a long period? Because guys learn, literally learn how to abuse and manipulate. Well, horrible bosses do the same thing. They learn how to manipulate, how to. They think in their mind, like, what he's gonna do, where he's gonna go. I got him. He has 50,000 commissions pending. He's not. No. If you're firm, if you're like a kid, persistent coming like, give me, give me, give me or I'm leaving again. Many don't do it. And they wait for too long. And eight months in, you don't have leverage because you gave this asshole eight months of your time instead of two. And you think that now it's hard decision for you. After two months, it's not.

Yeah, yeah. So basically, don't get yourself. Don't dig yourself into it too long.

Well, make sure the window of opportunity. It's like dating early on, it's easy to dump girlfriend or boyfriend after you've been with someone one or two years, it's emotional meltdown for both of you.

You got lives that are meshed.

Exactly.

And on that note, I have my thoughts, which I'll share, but I'd love to hear your answer first. Sales reps that are listening, how is it acceptable to wait on commission? When should a commission check be paid?

In my company, any money that that's received is due immediately. So if we're getting paid today, I don't care if it's down payment, final payment, progress, payment supplements, if company is getting paid, there is absolutely no reason why sales guy who brought that job should get cut from that. So if you bring me $20,000, like it's actually asking for trouble, you give me 20,000 and let's say I pay you 10% immediately or the next pay period, I should give you $2,000 check. You can invoice me for that. If not, I'm running Ponzi scheme. I have nothing to pay and I'm just stacking money, probably paying for other jobs. That's the trouble.

So would you agree that it's a red flag if that company doesn't have set protocols? I mean, and a sales rep should ask. We did things the same way. You turn a job in, as long as that job is turned in by Tuesday, you're paid Friday.

Exactly.

We paid weekly. And it was easy. It's like jobs in Tuesday, by this time, you're paid Friday. And it was just because otherwise when you have a lot of people, it's like, oh, last minute, it's Wednesday nights. Like we all have lives too.

We had it by Sunday. So everything turned in Sunday. Because I want to know, like I want my people to know you, you made me money. You deserve to get paid. And first checks, you get the first initials and later I produce it. I don't need you. But you, hey man, we just finish the job. Here's your job. You don't have to remind me, I'll pay you. And my sales, I mean we have. That's the easiest money to pay. If I pay you eight grand, you have big smile on my face because you made me 80 grand. Yeah.

Even today. It's funny when I hear owners say this, you know, the good owners say, I love paying people. That's the right owner. I love writing checks because as it comes in, it goes out. It's not just a one way street. So red flag if you're not, if it's not clear, there's no reason in my opinion whatsoever inexcusable.

Unless you're up onto Peter to pay Paul and unless you're running Ponzi scheme. Do you want to touch this money because you need it for something else?

Yeah, absolutely. So how does a sales rep who's neck deep in this. They've waited too long. They didn't want to believe that the company wasn't treating him right. They're like, oh, man, I should go. Production's not right. Money's not right. What is the best way for a sales rep to protect his or her interests and sever that relationship without leaving too much money on the table? Checking the watch for this one. How much time do we have? I know.

You have to be smart, because business owner definitely can strong arm you. They have all the leverage. What I would do, I would document. I would excel, spreadsheet every homeowner that I brought to the table, and I would come to them. I would print it out. I would make them clear what my intentions are. Hey, man, look. Do you see this? 28 jobs. I brought them to you, and I want to finish them. And I want you to. I want to get paid. Like, unfortunately, I don't see my future in your company. I don't believe that you're gonna fix production fast enough or whatever. Maybe cultures. But address what you don't like and why you don't believe in leadership. Whatever. I'm gonna go my own way. I'm gonna go work somewhere else. But I know you're probably gonna try not to pay me. So I want you to know that this 28, your best leverage is your homeowners. They are your homeowners. Like, I'm gonna help you to build these jobs. Like, I want to be the best representative for this homeowners. I want to make sure you're gonna get paid. I want to make sure nobody gonna give you better reviews. So let's not that messy in disguise, because I will sue you. We'll go to small claims, and I will go talk to this 28 people if you decide to shorten me. This is not a threat. This is business talk. Because I know what you know. Like, I've seen maybe. What do you do to other people? That's not gonna fly with me. If you tell, like, listen, so many business owners, they screw sales guys and crews because they know they can get away with it. I mean, heck, you can come to Roofing Insights, I'll go to Roofing Insights, and Dimitri will expose you. Like, I love doing. Like, if you make it public, if you make it big, they will pay because you have leverage if you keep it quiet, you can't do. It's just like home violence. You know how many women suffer like violence because they don't want to talk to him? And abusers take that as like it's sickening. But it's happening.

They got away with it once.

Exactly. And now it's a shame. And a lot of sales guys and people who got screwed, they don't want to talk about it and they would rather move on. Don't move on. Listen, it's a lot of money if you owe me five grand. Listen, I hear sales guys and crew leaders, even business owners, when we get screwed. I don't know if it's pride, I don't know what it is, but we're like, okay, we're gonna move on. It's only five grand. Five grand. You know how many times I will take my family to cheaper hotel or cheaper resort because I don't have extra? Like, I want to save 1 or $2,000, and you telling me 2, 3 grand, 5 grand, 10, 20 grand, you want to move on? That's stuff that you stealing from your family, that's something that you can, you know, buy nicer things for your kids. That's something we usually, you know, robbing ourselves. We don't want to go one more vacation because we want to save money. But then when someone is cheating us out of five grand, we don't want to even talk about it. So I'm telling you, you write down all your names. Those are your jobs. They're not company jobs. Especially if you door knocked. It's your asset. You brought it. And if you're not getting paid full price, I mean, if you have a contract, if you don't have contracts, shame on you. You don't have leverage. So what I do. Here's a list of customers. Here's the contract we signed. Are you going to honor it? Should I be worried and contact my lawyer and. And start going with small claims? Should I start thinking about leaning the property? Should I talk to every single customer? I have their phone numbers, I have their emails. I know you can disconnect me from your CRM, but I still will go after them. And I will make it as public as possible, as nasty as possible, because I did my job. I need to get paid. I will not be the one who will be screwed if you give them that. Now, if you don't have that and I have sales guys like that, they come in, they have no idea like who the customers, they don't have numbers. How much do the 50 to 100k. Really? You can't figure out how much people owe you? Like in the court, the person with the most paperwork wins. Bring the paperwork. Show me. Okay, here's the job. Here's the supplements. And if you don't know, shame on you. You don't know your trade. You don't deserve. You deserve settlement. Maybe it's 50 cents on the dollars, maybe it's 20 cents on the dollar. I've hired people too, when they claim 60 grand. And I said, well, where? Just. Just because you coming up with a number, I can actually do that in reverse. If I'm a business owner, I'm gonna come in and I'll do the same thing. I'll say, okay, here's 21 jobs that you did. Here's the numbers. Argue with me. Yeah, you can't. Here's your check. Yeah, Document. Document everything.

Before going down the threatening route, do you think it makes sense to have a conversation to try to get like, where should the escalation occur? Do we just have a conversation in hopes of getting paid and resolving it, or do you come to the table with your. With your full hand, just like ready to play?

Depends on the timing. I mean, if we're talking about eight months in, I mean, by the time you get so far behind, it's clear for all parties that this is not healthy business. It's frustrating. Like, if people like what I would do, I would take business owner. Like, I know it sounds sketchy and stuff. I would record the business owner. Like, honestly, if it gets to that point, don't be afraid to go, like maybe in a bar or just ask for a meeting, say, hey man, I have great concern about what's happening in the company. You have not been building my jobs for six months. What's going to record that conversation? Give him another 30 days, see what he has done. And then another week or two, three, four weeks comes by. Rehash it again. Hey, man, you promised me a month ago it's gonna get better. It's only getting worse. What are we gonna do about it? I think with the sales, in the sales world, it's never overnight because everybody has a big pipelines, not only production, but also sales guys have. But it's when you decide that you're not gonna bring value to the business anymore. That's where you caught up. Like, do you want me to keep selling for you? I can keep going and going, but what's the point if you don't see.

The light at the end of the tunnel.

Exactly.

Yeah. And it's important, I always teach that you need the right company, the right person, the right strategy. You have all three. You're gonna grow. You're with the wrong company. That's problem number one. You gotta find the right company. So let's end on this note. We talked about the red flags, which, correct me if I miss any in the summary. The two big ones, production and flashiness and not getting paid. Excuse me, when I say flashiness, I mean spending. And I do know of a couple of company owners that treat people right. They are a little more exuberant in their lifestyle, but I also know what you mean when they pull up in a brand new truck with a 10 inch lift kit on it and 37 inch tires and they're like, but I can't pay your check.

But your reputation will go in front of you if you drive a Lambo but no one around you in the company. If you have 200 employees and everybody says Friday checks are always there and we have four weeks backlog, that guy should have a private jet on top of that Lamborghini. It's a reputation thing.

So what are some things that you would leave sales reps with as advice to be like, these are the things, the key things to spot or notice in the interview process when you're finding that company to sell for. That would, that would tell you, this is a good place for me to call home.

Just look how invested they are. I think, like, if I go to the business, I see immediately if they're fly by night. Like, listen, if you go to the office, everything is temporary. Like, if you don't, like, ask yourself how fast they can close. Like, what's the leverage? Because you know, like, we recently went to Eustace. I mean, when you have 50 wrapped vehicles outside, you know, that's a story too for me. Like, I want to be part of that organization. Yeah. And then if you go to the company who claims to the $25 million in sales and they don't have one employee, they have five office employees. Like, listen, they can close overnight. Screw those 25 sales guys, because everybody's 1099 if you don't see investment. And by investment, I mean their relationship with the cruise. Even, like, do they, do they even bring, I'm not even asking like food or whatever, like, but do they have T shirts for their cruise? Is there anything. There's companies literally who would not put their logos or even yard signs. They don't want to be known. So ask yourself how invested that company is. Like, look at online presence. Look at it. I mean, company with no reviews, company with no presence. Like, what do they have? At the end of the day, it's super easy to fold. And that's the red flag number one. So if you go there, claims are there, but if picture does not match the description, run.

Yeah. Very good advice. Very good advice. Dimitri, thank you for sharing. Great pleasure to have you on the channel today. And if you haven't already done it, which if you're on YouTube, you've seen Dimitri with roofing insights, check out the channel, subscribe if you like this video, give it a thumbs up. And Dimitri, is there anything you'd like to close with to help salespeople succeed in this industry?

There's a lot of sales coaches. Adam is one of them. Just be true to yourself. You can learn from almost everyone, but never forget who you are, what drives you. Because I don't care what kind of mentor you have in your life, but if you're going to try to mimic that mentor, you probably will fail. You're the only you and you will do stuff differently and that's a good thing. Recently, actually. Have a pleasure. So I'm a big writing web guy and I met sales manager of the company who had been doing writing web and he said that they did not agree with writing web process. And this one old guy in the company, he was like in his 60s, 70s, older sales guy, he said he did not agree with one of the steps and he decided to do it his way because it was not as pushed. It was just he did not feel it. His closing rate was 70% the highest in that company. And they said they love reading web, they love the process, but you can only be true to yourself. And I do stuff differently than my mentors telling me, just be true to yourself. If you have numbers to back it up.

Yeah, I love that. Thank you, Demetri. Thanks for being here.

Thank you.