5 Signs You’re Dealing With a Narcissist & How to Protect Yourself

Outdoit with Intuit QuickBooks. It's the trusted end to end solution that businesses rely on. QuickBooks provides a team of AI agents and trusted experts. So doing it yourself no longer means doing it alone. Their payment agent gets you paid faster. Their customer agent secures more sales, and the accounting agent automates and categorizes transactions. Get your critical business jobs done with QuickBooks on the Intuit platform. The Mel Robbins Podcast is proudly sponsored by Amica Insurance. They say if you want to go fast, go alone. But if you want to go far, go together. When you go with Amica, you're getting coverage from a mutual insurer that's built for their customers. So they'll help look after what's important to you together, auto, home life and more. Amica has you covered. At Amica, they'll help protect what matters most to you. Visit amica.com and get a quote today. Hey, it's Mel. And welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast. Everyone, Today we have a killer episode. What are we talking about? Only public enemy number one, narcissism. What I've done is I've brought on the world's leading expert on narcissism to talk about this topic with all of us. Because you know what? We have to hear about it, we gotta understand it, and most importantly, we gotta know how to protect ourselves from it. Because here's the truth. Narcissism, it's everywhere. And so here's what I've done. I have asked a friend of mine, Dr. Ramani, who happens to be the world's leading expert on the subject of narcissism. She is so fascinating to listen to because not only has she studied narcissism, been in academia for over 20 years teaching about it, she's a best selling author, she's the host of the podcast Navigating Narcissism. And I am so excited for you to learn everything that she is about to teach us today. So without further ado, welcome Dr. Ramani.

It's so good to see you and thank you.

So what is narcissism?

Narcissism is a person who has a lack of empathy. And I'm going to talk about or performative empathy, which I'm going to get to in a minute. Okay, so. But they have inconsistent or low empathy. They're very entitled, they're arrogant, they're egocentric, they're chronically validation and admiration seeking. They need to be in control all the time. They are poorly emotionally regulated, prone to show strong shows of rage. If they're frustrated or disappointed or aren't getting in their way. They're very easily provoked and very thin skinned. If anyone gives them feedback or criticism, like, they just rage very quickly. They can't regulate themselves at those times. They're very pretentious. They tend to be very superficial. I mean, the list goes. It's that kind of stuff.

Narcissism, I find to be an absolutely fascinating topic. I believe that when you understand what it is and what it isn't, and when you have tools, all of a sudden there is a light at the end of the tunnel that you're walking down and you realize you're not crazy. You're around somebody who's making you believe you are correct.

That's beautifully put. And I agree with you in a way. What it is. I'm hoping to give people a guide to what they're dealing with. And not in an accusatory you're bad, I'm good way, but in more of a this may not be good for me.

So let's start at the beginning. Because people are fascinated by the topic of narcissism. The word is now thrown around all the time.

Okay, So I even want to go to step zero from step one here to say narcissism is. Is not a diagnosis. Okay. Wait, what? It's not. Everyone's like, don't diagnose people. I'm like, okay, I roll up to someone. I said, if I called you stubborn, would you tell me I'm diagnosing you? They're like, no. If I told you you were agreeable, would you tell me I'm diagnosing you? No. Then why are you saying narcissism's a diagnosis when it's not? It is a personality style. Just like agreeableness, just like introversion. All of those are personality styles. Nobody's getting themselves all be in their bonnet when we say those a minute.

I thought that this was like a diagnosis. See, already I'm learning stuff from you.

So narcissistic personality disorder is a diagnosis. Right. Okay. That is okay. That's a very specific three words. Specific. It's like if. Let me put it this way. No one would get mad at you if you walked up and said, gosh, you're sad, you seem a little depressed. Don't diagnose me. We'd be okay with you saying, oh, you're sad, you seem a little depressed.

Right.

Why? Depressed actually is a kind of a clinical term. Right. Depression, it's actually called major depressive disorder is a diagnosis that's actually more on point. So let's start here. It is a personality style. It is a maladaptive style. It is an antagonistic style, but it's a style no different than any other personality style. Now, the core of narcissism is a deep insecurity. And that's the piece we forget. These are not people, actually, who, at their most primal, unconscious level, believe their hype. They are. All of this stuff is to create almost a suit of armor around that unprocessed insecurity. The narcissistic person is always fighting a battle against shame. And the shame is at an unconscious level. People are gonna see they ain't all that. So if anything even pokes them that, like, even someone makes a joke at their expense, they lash out to maintain dominance. Cause that's that. You also wanna know what motivates the narcissistic person? Power, dominance, control, and frankly, safety. Cause all those things keep them safe. If they're in control, if they're the boss, if they have all the money, then they feel okay. All the power, whatever the fame, whatever it looks like, then they're okay. That's narcissism.

Okay? So just so I make sure that I'm tracking and everybody's tracking. So basically we've collapsed two things when we talk about narcissism in society. There is narcissists and narcissism, which is a personality style that is maladaptive that we all might exhibit at some point.

Nope. No.

Oh, okay.

No, no, no, no, no. I got a personality. You got a personality. People listening and watching this, they've got a personality, and that's their personality. I know. For example, Mel, I'm introverted, okay? Everyone's like, no, you talk so much. Oh, heck no. There was a day the other day where I didn't speak to a single human being and I didn't leave my house. It was the best day of my week. And people, aren't you sad? And we're going out. I'm like, have fun. Don't call me. Like, we're good. So I am a naturally introverted person. I am never going to be the life of the party. I am never going to want to go to a party. I am not a joiner. And after I spend time with a large group of people, I collapse into bed. Okay? Yep, that's my personality. So this leads us to then what is this personality style?

What is this? So, so there. But there's two things just so I'm tracking that we're going to Talk about. We're going to talk about narcissism as a personality style and narcissistic personality disorder, which is a diagnosis.

It's a diagnosis. And you know what? I don't even think we should talk about it. Okay. Because the fact is only 1 to maybe 4% of the population has this personality disorder.

Okay.

The vast majority of cases are never diagnosed because they're never across the table from a licensed mental health professional who's actually the only person qualified to issue such diagnosis, said diagnosis. And I'm gonna be honest with you. Even the majority of people who have the disorder, it's never document anywhere because the insurance company ain't gonna pay for therapy for it. Cause you can't do anything about it.

Okay? So setting aside narcissism as a clinical diagnosis, and let's go back to the personality style stuff, because I think that's fascinating. What do we need to know when we're dealing with somebody who is displaying these narcissistic traits?

The challenge in this space of the narcissism space is so many people invest themselves in, can I get this person to change? Can I be better? Can I do different? To pull something different out of them? And it's to say, stop. That's not going to change. Right. It's like trying to change the weather. There's nothing you can do to make Chicago warmer in February. It is going to be cold. Bundle up. Great city. But it's going to be cold.

Okay. There was a wake up call right there. When you're done listening to this episode and you understand what narcissism is, and you learn the signs to spot it. Takeaway number one is you cannot change the weather in Chicago.

No.

And you cannot do anything to change somebody with a narcissistic personality.

Yeah. And let's push this a little bit further. Okay? So this is. I'm gonna be sort of a provocateur here. Personality's tough. There's different schools of thought on how much personality can change. All right? There's a little wiggle room. And I think the more. The greater a person's flexibility. Psychological and personality, the healthier the person is. It's almost like your body, the more flexible you are likely, the more you work it out, the less likely you're gonn osteoporosis and break bones and all that. Flexibility is everything. But I would say it matters more psychologically than it even means physically. Right. So why people stretch before a workout.

Oh, that's interesting. Because what I'm thinking About right now is there's a pretty famous TED talk by, I think it's Dr. Schwartz talking about personality and what he basically says. And now I'm realizing it's the flexibility you're talking about. He. Like you said, I'm a professor and I am very introverted. But when it matters to me, I can be flexible. I can stand in front of that classroom and I can profess. But the second that lecture is over, I collapse.

I'm done.

So the flexibility you're talking about is that an extrovert like me can shut up and be alone when it matters. An introvert like you can step in front of the mic, invite people into your home when it matters. But that flexibility is very limited. It's tied to when and it's important to you. But then you go back to your baseline. Is that what you're saying? Personality always.

In fact, there is a theory, the idea of the rubber band, theory of personality and the idea of the rubber band is that we all have our personality. A rubber band's just sitting there in its state. That's who we are. But we can stretch it. Okay, we could stretch it a bit, but when back to baseline or even at times of stress, we go to our baseline personality, right? The challenge is that that person with a narcissistic personality not only has trouble stretching, it's not even the stretching as much as the changing. The challenge with the narcissistic personality is, is that it's, it's a very egocentric self serving style, right? It's designed to get them what they need. It's, it's what they, what helps them feel safe, what helps them feel happy with very little regard for anyone else. Other personality styles, agreeableness, in fact, agreeableness is considered the counterweight to narcissism. So narcissism is actually what's called, it's, it's a real personality style is disagreeableness or antagonism, right? So if narcissism's disagreeableness, agreeableness is the other side of that. Agreeable people are. I love agreeable people, they're the best. Like, I just would like a little commune full of them. We're never going to take over the world and we're not going to make a lot of money. But let me tell you, so fun, empathic, warm, flexible, make accommodation for other people, follow the rules, highly ethical. That's agreeableness, opposite of narcissism, right? What's tricky about narcissism is there's different. I Forgot to also say they're very grandiose. So they live in a fantasy world. I'm gonna have the perfect love story. Look at my perfect life. You can see how social media took this grandiosity and blew it up into something that I've been studying narcissism since before there was social media. And I was like, what the holy hell just happened?

What have you seen?

I mean, what happened was narcissism's always been around as long as they were human beings. I mean, I'm guessing, like, Attila the Hun was probably a narciss narcissist. Napoleon might have been a narcissist. I think if you go all the way back in the history books, in fact, when I helped my daughter with all of her ancient and, you know, even modern European history, I'm like, narcissist, narcissist, narcissist. I said, you see how much they shaped history to this day? So I think that, what. It's always been there.

Yeah.

Okay. The difference was, back in the day, if you needed validation, okay, you and I are both old enough to know about rotary dial phones and no answering machines and no social media. Okay. So there are. There was a time if you needed validation, you actually had to clean up and leave the house. True, right? Like, you actually had to get up and go. You couldn't become famous. Right. Even if you wrote a letter to the editor of the newspaper on some kind of rant, the editor was gonna get a hundred of these, or they'd get 100 of these and pick one. So there was no public place to do this. So where narcissists really did their dirty work was they would harm the people around them. Very dominant, probably cruel to spouses, cruel to children. I think if you look at family lines of this intergener, they'll say, like, yeah, really brutal father, really brutal grandfather, really brutal great grandfather. And it often links to things like hierarchies, patriarchies, like, things that are all very, very hierarchical. One person gets the final say, not because they're a good person, but just because. So these systems have always been there. And so what happened, though, is one day, I remember it so well. I remember the house I was living in. Somebody said to me, have you seen this thing called Facebook? And they're like, you need to go check this out. They said, created an account. So I did. And I was like, oh, this is going to be a disaster. You know, it must have been like being like a. Like a pulmonologist or a cardiologist when cigarettes were out. Like, what is happening? And so at that moment, I thought, the game's about to change. I had no idea what was going to come with the Instagram and the influencing and all. I had no idea what's coming there. But I thought, wow, no, nobody needs to leave the house. They can put forth a false version of themselves, the grandiose version, the fantasy version, and sit at home and let the validation come in. My concern was that this was going to make their narcissistic symptomatology worse overall. And I think that has been borne out.

Can I ask you a question? Because this is one of the things that really changed my life when you taught me that narcissists are not born, they're made. Can you explain that to everybody? Because this is a game changer to understand this.

So nobody's born this way. Okay?

I mean, so even in a family structure where you have a grandfather, a father like these dominant or mother person, you are not born a narcissist.

Everyone listening to this will say, there are four kids in our family. I have a brother who's narcissistic, and the rest of us are really cool and nice and kind to each other. So think of how many people out there who have siblings, like, I'm. My sister's really kind and my other sister's really, really narcissistic. So if that was the case, it should appear in all siblings, or at least, at least 50% of them.

So how does that get made?

It's made. So here's the most likely explanation is that there may very well be. This has not been isolated yet, but there may very well be a biological vulnerability to it. And that would be probably delivered through something called a child's baby's temperament. Temperament is the genetic part of our personality. Anyone who spent time around a baby will know. Some kids soothe really easily. Some kids are just. They're easy. They're easy, smiley, friendly babies. They're really sweet kids. Right?

Right.

And as they grow up, they stay sweet and the teachers like them and they have friends and they're just sweet, sweet, sweet. Then there are those kids who will not stop crying and they're demanding. And as they grow up, look at me, look at me, look at me, look at me, look at me. And they're always doing things for attention and they're disruptive and they won't sit still. And. And as they enter preschool and school, the teachers always shoot, sit down. Stop that. So they're already starting to get kind of bad vibes from their constant attention seeking behavior. It's probably an interaction effect. The kid may not be getting enough attention or attachment needs met. So you have this biological vulnerability. In the hands of a skilled, attached, warm, present loving, consistent parent, that might be manageable and that sort of energy might get turned into athletic interests or creative interests and that child won't feel pathologized for their style. But I hate to say it, probably for the majority of kids with that style, it's a lot of stop that. Sit down. Can't you be more like your sister? You're going in the corner, you're making a mess, you're going to the principal. So that kid is getting invalidated every time they turn around. That invalidation plus the temperament, plus the possibility that they don't have an environment where there's a possibility for secure attachment, plus the possibility of trauma, chaos and neglect. That's one pathway to develop a narcissist.

So if I can just make sure I'm understanding what you're basically saying is even regardless of temperament, if you're not getting your emotional needs met, if you do not feel safe and secure in your house, if you have a parent that abandons you, a parent that's abusive, somebody with mental illness, an addiction, somebody who's unpredictable, that you as a child don't feel safe or you don't feel seen, all those emotional needs. And that's what leads to narcissism.

But not always. In fact, I wouldn't say the vast majority of the time. Many, many, many, many people grew up in situations like that of trauma, of neglect, of abuse, of chaos. And they do not go on to become narcissistic. They typically go on to become rather anxious adults with poor self appraisal who don't know their value and worth a whole nother different burden to carry. But the narcissist. Oh no, no, I was actually talking about myself, my dear. So yeah, that was all me, you know, so it's a. But at the end of it, what we see is that it's. The problem is, is that these paths aren't linear. I always say narcissism is a story. The development of narcissism is a story we can tell backwards but never forwards. So if I'm thinking I have some clients who have been through horrific early childhood trauma, horrific physical abuse, sexual abuse, violence, they grew up in chaos. To tell you that these are some of the most empathic, loving human beings I've ever met would be actually missing the mark. They're they're just solid people. If anything, they don't understand their value. Like their, their harm is very internalized. It's like, I'm not good enough, I'm not doing enough. But there's so much goodness, so much empathy. They've gone on to become amazing parents, all of that. Right. So that it's that that early chaos does not damn someone by a long shot, but it does set up these what are called adverse child experiences. It definitely, if we view this from a probability standpoint, there's more negative outcomes that could come either internalized, disliking oneself or externalized. And that's more of what narcissism could potentially look like. Now, there's a secondary path to narcissism and that secondary path is actually one we probably should be monitoring in modern times quite a bit, which is the overindulged child. The child who gets whatever they want. Money is spent on them lavishly. You're so great, you're so smart. There was a study done out of Amsterdam. Now it'll be interesting to see what happens when these kids turn into adults. He was studying children, but what he found, this guy, I think his name was Eddie Brumelmans at the University of Amsterdam. And what he found was that children who were told they are more special than other children, those were the kids that were already showing entitlement and other sort of soft signs of narcissism. So it's not that you're telling your child they're special, it's that you're more special than somebody else. Oh, that was sort of that, that was the sort of the penny drop moment, which is very much what you could imagine a more narcissistic parent doing. My child is more special than the other children. My child deserves special treatment. My child should play the whole game. My child should get this, my child should get that. But you're looking at kids where they're not taught the most critical things.

What are the three most important things that you want to foster in a child?

Healthy, secure attachment, A capacity to self soothe and regulate, especially in the face of disappointment and empathy.

All right, well, let's dig into each one of those because they're intrinsically tied to understanding narcissism.

Secure attachment happens when a child has at least one primary caregiver that is consistently available, that the child feels that they can call that caregiver when they need them. That secure attachment develops over the early years and we're talking birth to like two or three. This is something where you got to lock this in early. Right. That securely attached child. In those early experiments done by John Bowlby and Mary Ainsworth, sort of seminal work in the field, what they found was that the child who was securely attached to when mom would leave them with a strange situation that would be preschool or babysitter or something like that. The child would whimper a little like, where are you going? But then they would actually calm down very quickly with the soothing of a caregiver. And then when the parent came back to pick them up, the child would be thrilled to see them. In children who are more anxiously or avoidantly or insecurely attached, there would be almost difficult to soothe when the parent left. And when the parent came back, the child would actually either go into absolutely, like, another meltdown, almost like, how could you leave me? Or they turn their head away from the parent, you see? Whereas that securely attached child would actually be happy to see the parent when they return. Got it. See? Okay. So now that secure attachment is number one, and that's created by consistency and availability in that early environment. You need one parent doing that and one primary caregiver, to be honest. Anyone, whoever that child identifies as such. Number two is that children need to. They need to learn how to soothe themselves, and they need to learn how to be disappointed. Okay? And we're not letting them do that. Like, sometimes you fail. Sometimes you don't get the teacher you want. Sometimes they run out of chocolate ice cream by the time you get up. And you know what? You. Sometimes you lose at Chutes and Ladders, I remember, like, saying, I'm gonna win this game. And you have to be like, don't let them win. I ain't gonna let them win. So I'm getting up to the top of the Chutes and Ladders, and I'm gonna win. And I'm saying, wow, that felt good. And when my daughter said, that's not fair, I said, oh, ho, ho, ho, I won this game. Let's be present with me winning. You want to play again? Sure. We can do that again. But you need to learn to be present, that not every outcome is the way you're going to want it to be. That's number two. Number three is empathy. You've got to foster empathy in children and foster compassion. That can be through books they read, stories they experience. Sure. But above all else in the home, how do they learn that? It's modeled for them. They see parents empathizing or caregivers empathizing with each other. They see extended family empathizing with each other. They see empathy in the classroom. They see empathy in the world. And you can imagine a child who sees none of that, or the parent is acting in a very entitled manner, like, oh, let's just go to the head of the line. We're more important than these people. Or, oh, gosh, you know, we're not sitting in that line. All these things parents do that they think are innocuous in an airport, at a soccer game, at a theme park. Your kid's learning, and their brain is just an explosion of neurons and dendrites. And that's getting filed away under we're special.

You know, the reason why this is so interesting to me is because I think one of the challenges when you have either a narcissistic parent or sibling or boss or somebody that you're in a relationship with is that you think that somehow everything is your fault. And when I learn from you that narcissists are made in childhood, it just opened up this door for me to go, oh, wow. So they didn't, like, choose to be this way. They're not consciously doing this.

What it is, It's a regulation issue, right? So it's the sense that a narcissistic person never quite feels safe in the world, Right? Because they never feel safe. They're always on the offense and the defense simultaneously. Right? I'm gonna win. I'm gonna dominate. Me, me, me. And are you looking at me? You're looking at me. And then rage, rage, rage. So that constant offense defense that they play makes them very antagonistic unless things are going exactly the way they want. And where narcissistic people are tricky is that if they feel safe, I gotta tell you, it might be one of the most engaging, entrancing, exhilarating, charismatic, charming experiences you've ever had. They've hung the moon They've hung the sun Only for you it is. I mean, it's dope. Mean, okay?

It's literally a Jekyll and Hyde experience.

It is. But then at a time, they don't feel safe or they're bored, it's over. And people will spend their lives trying to get back to that hung the sun, hung the moon kind of a moment. And they said they really don't have any more use for you anymore, then that's it. You ain't gotta feel that again.

This is so fascinating. I have to stop you right there for a quick word from our sponsors. But when we come back, I want to dig into the warning signs. What are the signs that we need to know that you're dealing with a narcissist. This time of the year is chaotic, stress is high, treats are everywhere, and you're crashing by 3pm if you want to feel sharper, more focused and beat the cravings, it's time to get to know your glucose with Lingo, a real time glucose wearable for you. Staying in a healthy glucose range isn't one size fits all. It's normal to fluctuate. What matters is learning your patterns and building habits that work for you. You see how your glucose responds to what you eat, how you move, even how you sleep. I mean, here's the thing. One in three adults are living with prediabetes and most have no idea. But tuning in early and making lifestyle changes can transform your health for today and tomorrow. Get to know your glucose today with Lingo designed for you by Abbott. This holiday season through December 31st. Use code MEL10@hellolingo.com to get 10% off a lingo plan. Purchase one use per customer. This offer cannot be combined with other offers, US and Puerto Rico only. The Lingo glucose system is for users 18 years and older, not on insulin. It is not intended for diagnosis of diseases, including diabetes. Individual responses may vary. You know, for a couple years, Chris, my husband, has been saying we need to get a rowing machine. Now, I rode in college. That is one heck of a workout. And so I looked into it and we decided to get a hydrow rowing machine. And now I remember why I miss rowing so much. I sit down, I start rowing and I'm gone. In Miami, Scotland, Lake Lucerne. The locations are stunning and the instructors. You don't have to row alone. You got real Olympians and world class athletes who feel like friends and boat mates. They're funny, motivating, great storytellers. And before you know it, you're done. After just 20 minutes on the hydro, your heart's pumping, my body's stronger. I feel amazing. So will you. Here's what I love about it. Hydro works out 86% of your muscles with one seamless motion. Twice as effective as running or cycling, and for me, not as hard on the knees or the bladder. And with the largest library of rowing workouts in the world, there's always something new. Whatever your goals are, hydro meets you where you are and pushes you further. This holiday season, train smarter, not longer. Head over to hydro.com and use code MEL to save up to $600 off on Hydro Rower during this holiday season. That's hydro.com code Mel hydrow.com code MEL. A new year is coming fast, and you know what that means. Fresh start, clean slate, no excuses. But if you want next year to feel different, you gotta do something different. The good news is it's never too late to make a career pivot, go back to school and take charge of your life. Purdue Global is Purdue's online university for working adults. Different paths, different schedules, and they meet you where you are with the support you need. Start your comeback today at purdueglobal. Edu. So, Dr. Ramani, what are the five warning signs that someone is a narcissist?

So I would say, number one would be that they're very reactive if they experience any form of feedback or criticism. So if you say anything, even. Even like a really thoughtful critique, like, you know, I would consider rewriting this paragraph. Throw the paper in your face.

Really?

Really. Oh, so you're James Joyce. You write a. You know, that kind of thing. So very reactive. Very quick. Number two, oppositionality. If you tell them to do something, they'll go out of their way. They don't like being told what to do. So you might ask them, could you wear a mask? That was a big one during the pandemic. Could you wear a mask? How dare you tell me to do this? Could you not park there? That's reserved parking for the people who are coming to get. I don't know, coming to for whatever reason. How can. These parks are. These spots are. I'm parking, right?

They.

If you tell them to do something, it is as though they feel they're being dominated and controlled. They ain't having that. That's another thing is, you see oppositionality. They are. Their empathy is very superficial. Some people say, no, no, no. They had empathy. I'm like, talk to me about that empathy. And what you'll see is that it is very performative. It's very superficial.

So can you give us an example?

Example might be, oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh, your brother's sick. Oh, wow. That's gotta be really, really hard. Are you okay? Are you okay?

That sounds nice.

Okay. Then very quickly, it'll be like, you're. And now you wanna talk about, like, you'll. I'm the other person now. Yeah, I know he's been sick, but it's brought up all this other stuff for me, you know, like, I'm really feeling, like, lost, and I'm realizing how much my brother is how I feel. Right. They don't want to hear it, so they'll. They'll come in with they'll, they'll say, I always say this narcissistic folks are great at thank you cards and thank you gifts, but they're really bad at true gratitude. So they will be seemingly empathic, but as soon as you go in a little deeper, like you're actually really talking about how your brother's illness affected you now, you'll see they'll tune out like, woo. Too much emotion coming their way, too much need. So it's very quicksilver, what I call thank you card empathy. Like, it'll seem so on point, but they're not really present with you. They'll cry at a movie, but when that same exact thing happens in their life, they're actually treating the other person badly. And they don't even connect the two. Like, you were just crying when that man beat someone in the story and then yet you were threatening something. Like, how do you not see? And they don't see it. They do not see it. So there is a performative quality to the empathy and there's also a transactional quality to their empathy. They'll be really warm to you when they need something, but when they get it, they'll actually click out. And that's a really bad feeling because you recognize, oh, they were just nice to me to get that thing. So I'd say it's this inconsistent, performative, sort of pseudo superficial empathy. That's another thing. The fourth I would say is egocentricity. It's really hard for them to not hijack a conversation, interrupt people and constantly make it about themselves else. So even when somebody might say, I went abroad for my very first trip and it was amazing, and I went on an airplane and I did this and I did that, I got my first passport, like, really sweet. It's so beautiful to hear people and you just sort of drink it all in. The narcissistic person give them like three minutes and they're like, what airline did you take? Yeah, I take that airline. It's not that great. Oh, what hotel do you stay in? Like, oh, the hotel I'd recommend in Rome is this. It's. Well, I went there, I went to that restaurant and. And it just becomes now it's their travelogue and they're yammering on. They just love to hold court and.

Ma, ma, ma, ma, ma, ma.

It's always, the conversation always steers back to them. They cannot simply be present with somebody else telling a story or we'll interrupt or will sort of be contemptuous and be like, like a lot of like, oh, my gosh, we're listening to this sort of, like, summer vacation story. Great. What a good use. If anyone's ever watched Succession, I'd say the best contemptuous narcissist performance I've ever seen in my life is Roman.

And what is the fifth sign?

I would say then it is. It's constantly having to put other people down to lift them up, you know? Yeah, he thinks he got the right Tesla. Yeah, that's actually. That's just sort of the baseline model. Or like, ugh. Nobody stays on that side of that island. It's very. It's putting other people down, and it is contempt. I would wrap up it up contempt in that. Narcissistic people are notoriously contemptuous. It often comes out as snobbery, but it can even come out even like. Like, oh, God, dude. Like, nobody's doing that. And, like, make fun of someone, and it can really. It can hurt the other person. And then what the narcissistic person will often do is they will then turn around, say, I was just making a joke. So now if you react to it, it's a joke. But if you say something to them and you say, it's just a joke, joke, they'll still rage at you, and I'll throw in a sixth sign. Or it could be 5A is gaslighting. They are. They're constantly doubting reality. I never said that. I never did that. I didn't put that there. That never happened. And then when you try to push back on that, they'll say, oh, my God, you're so sensitive. Or, have you seen a shrink? Because people don't usually react the way you are, so they. They leave you feeling as though you're impaired. So I'd say that gaslighting is, like, I said 5A because I gave you contempt as 5.

Well, okay. So I don't know if anybody else listening is having the experience I'm having right now where I have a pit in my stomach because I have at least one person, very prominent person that I have in my mind, in my life, and I'm like, check, check, check, check, check. Somebody's talking at the table. They're rolling their eyes at other people. Somebody leaves the room. They just immediately trash them as they leave. What I want to know is we'll get into what to do, but now that you're really kind of pulling apart the signs, and we've learned that there are sort of two tracks in childhood where this behavior and this personality type, what is the impact if you have a parent that is like this. If you've been raised by somebody that exhibits all five of these, or you're like, oh my God, I think my mom or my dad was a freaking narcissist. Like check, check, check. How does that impact you now that you're an adult?

So it's not good. That's the best answer I can give you. It is not good. So let's remember two things. First of all, I'm going to add a 5B to that list. Look for entitlement. Like that idea of they won't wait in line, they're special, they expect special treatment and they get really angry if they're not given special treatment. That's another sign to look for. But let's remember this about narcissism. It's on a continuum. Not all narcissists are the same. So a person who is dealing with more of what we call a milder, lighter narcissistic person is having a very different experience than somebody who's dealing with a rather severe narcissistic person. And I think that what that has sort of muddied the waters in this conversation. Because if a person dealing with a milder narcissist hears the story of somebody who's dealing with a really severe narcissist or saying, well, maybe I'm not dealing with a narcissist because I'm not living in terror, you know, I'm not isolated from all my friends. I still think that person dealing with a lighter narcissist is still feeling unseen, unheard, self blaming and all of that. It's just at a different level. The reason I bring this up is with the parents, right? I do think that any narcissism in a parent is never good for a child. But at the more severe levels it's absolutely devastating. What it does does is it hijacks a child's sense of self, identity, autonomy. They, they don't believe in themselves. They believe that their needs are not. In fact they've been shamed for their needs their entire life. What, you want something from me? You know, like that's what the parents attitude is. Maybe not that explicitly, but people who grow up with narcissistic parents, the vast majority become rather anxious adults who are not aware of their own self worth, who have very inaccurate self appraisal, usually in the wrong direction. They do, they devalue themselves entirely. They don't trust themselves, they downsell themselves, they don't aspire to things that they actually could do. Because in Some ways they've so internalized the way they were shamed by that parent. But above all else, they sort of lose their entire sense of self because their parent never let them develop it. Because, in essence, since the parent really experience the child as an extension of.

Themselves, what does that mean when the child's the extension of the parent?

So it means that the child should have no needs outside of that parent. So if the child goes along, everyone gets along. If they're, mommy, mommy, you're so pretty and we'll do anything you want, and they eat the way the parent wants, and they do the sport the parent wants, and they excel at what the parent wants, and they just become literally the parent and have no identity or need outside of that. Everything's gonna be just fine. But that's not how kids work. The whole point of being a child is to individuate and become autonomous. And once that happens, the parent is not interested in that and they don't like it. So the child will always feel that they're almost in psychological servitude to that parent. They're not allowed to have a reality outside of the parent.

Wow. Let's talk a little bit about this sort of whiplash. Because, you know, when you're dealing with a narcissistic parent or spouse or boss, it feels like. I keep reading these comments from our audience about, like, on one hand, you're like, okay, there's the tantrum behavior, but you still feel responsible for them. You still feel guilty when you're mad at them. You still want to please them.

Correct.

Why?

Because there's a guy named Daniel Shaw who writes about this brilliantly. And I want to credit him because I'm going to use his language he talks about, and it's gonna use a technical term, and I'm gonna bring it down to what all of us, how we'd make sense of it. He calls having a narcissistic parent. He calls it a loss of intersubjectivity. That's a real fancy way of saying, it's my reality, it's my way. You are. You're almost like a non entity. Here, you, everyone exists to serve me. I don't want you to have needs. I don't want you to be something separate. In a healthy parent, the child will be sad and the parent will sort of, even if the parent's in a good mood, the child will stop and be with their sad child and listen to them and empathize. Whereas a narcissistic parent will say, this is My birthday. What is happening here? Like, wait, you're not. Get this kid away from me. Like, how dare he cry on my birthday. It's that kind of thing, right? So the child is not allowed to have any sort of experience outside of that of the parents. And then the parent really expresses the resentment outside that the child having needs. Thus the child internalizes a sense of shame and even guilt over having needs. So when they go into adulthood, that shame and guilt persists. Because that relationship, a lot of therapists don't address it that explicitly. It's not an easy cycle to end. Because remember, unlike an adult narcissistic relationship, the child needs the parent. The child needs the parent for safety, for shelter, for food. And not like you can divorce a parent and say, I'm gonna start dating again and see if I can find someone better. That is not how this works. The child knows the parent's the only game in town. And identity is very much shaped by that attachment relationship, by that caregiving parental relationship. So what you're learning is that you're a pain in the neck. Don't need so much, you're not good enough. Cause if you were good enough, that parent would be regulated, that parent would be happy. So you are doing something wrong. And the narcissistic parent explicitly and implicitly communicates that to them. I wish you'd never been born. You're so much trouble. I would have had such an amazing career if it weren't for you. Child shouldn't be hearing that. They'll shame a child's weight. Like, oh goodness, if somebody's eating too much, it's your. Because you're a bad reflection on the parent. If you don't look the way the parent wants, you're not doing what the parent wants. Oh, my kid, he wants to play a violin. He won't even play sports. All of those things are. The child is supposed to be a functionary for the parent. And so as that person goes into adulthood, I would actually say it's almost a three part whiplash. There is the sense of, you know what the tantrum is? You see it coming. You then have the experience of, is this my fault? I need to calm them down. I feel bad. And then you have the third experience that you may still have some good moments with that parent. That parent may be really smart, really interesting, really, really fun. I mean, in fact, a lot of people say, as I got older, there were parts of my parent I enjoyed because I noticed there was something fun, but I still felt the shaming and the blaming. And it's very interesting for a lot of narcissistic parents, they like babies because babies are sort of like an accessory, like a bag. You can kind of take them around, like, you know, and show them around town. Once they stop being baggable and carryable, not so interested in him, not so cute on social media, then there's this huge long period where that child needs more than it can give back. Then the child gets into late adolescent and early adulthood. The parent's interested again. They can go out to dinner with them, they can go to a bar with them, they can go on an interesting vacation with them. They can bring them into the family business. And so now they're interested in their kid. And for some kids who desperately wanted that love, they go all in on that. They're like, I'm gonna play tennis with my dad or, I'm gonna help my mom and her business. Because now, now, now I'm gonna get. I'm gonna get that love. The love you wanted when you were four and you couldn't quite work in the family business. And that's where we get to this idea of the trauma bond.

So what do you do now? If you're sitting there listening to this and you're going, oh, my God, that's me. And I do keep jumping back into the fire. It's like this. Are they super hostile or, you know, are they loving me? Did I get it right and now I'm getting affection? Or are they trying to annihilate me because they're not getting what they need from me and I'm not behaving? So as an. As an adult now, if you're going, this is me. What do you do?

So a couple things, all right? Number one, I am not going to sugarcoat this and say there's like, three easy steps to pushing back from a narcissistic parent. This ain't TikTok, folks. Like, this is hard work, okay? There is no three step, five step, ten step, or even 172 step plan here.

Okay? I'm gonna take a deep breath because I. I need every one them of. Of you to hear. This is not TikTok, okay? You need to wake up and realize that, first of all, you're not changing the weather in Chicago, and you're not going to change the personality type if your parent is a narcissist or you are in love with one, okay?

It's okay. So number one is the acknowledgement. And this is the hardest part of all. Although you're this person's child, narcissistic people view all the people around them as objects, like my coffee maker or my tea maker. This morning, I made a cup of tea. I don't think about my tea maker unless I want a cup of tea. When I want a cup of tea, me and my tea maker interact the rest of the day. Don't think about it once at all. At all. Why would I? I don't need a cup of tea. Right. And that's how a narcissistic person thinks about other people. Do I need something from you? Yeah. Do I need something from you? Oh, yeah. I do need something from you. Now you're my central focus. I'm thinking about only you. But just like, if that tea maker waddled over to me and said, hey, could you listen to me? I'd be like, what? You're a tea maker? Like, go away. This is not Beauty and the Beast appliances. Do not talk. Get the hell away from me. You are a tea maker. Learn your place. So for a narcissistic person, we all serve a function for them, whether it's their lover, whether you're their accountant, whether you're their cleaner. That's why Nurse, narcissistic people always have, like, a team around them. It's always about the team. I'm like, of course you have a team around you because everyone serves a function for you.

I'm trying to pick my mouth up off the floor because this is a revolutionary idea for me, that a narcissistic person isn't ever thinking about you unless they need something for you.

Exactly.

And yet, if you have ever been in a serious relationship with a narcissist or you were raised by one, you think about them all the time.

All the time. All that. You're ruminating them. They're not thinking about you unless they need something from you or you're a blockade to something they need. Right? Like you're not signing the deal or you're. Because you're sick. They can't go to something. Now they're thinking about you because they're mad at you. Right. Going back to that parenting issue. So as you get into adulthood, you are an object to them. So, like, what can I do? What can I this. You're never going to be able to. To read their mind and give them everything they want. There is not there. You will never be able to. None of us are mind readers. You're never going to be able to fully anticipate. And what's so sad is people who are all in with narcissistic parents or even narcissistic partners will literally try to devote their lives to anticipating the narcissistic person's every need so they can finally, finally win them over, that they could do it just right. So that's not possible because none of us are mind readers.

Remember that. So what do you do?

You give up. You, at that point, you're like, okay, I can only be the best person I can be. Live in a way that's in line with your own values right now. This is why I'm saying that this is not an easy TikTok strategy. Because even as you do that, even when the day comes, you realize my parent is never going to change. None of this is my fault. It's really just my genetic bad luck that this is the parent I pulled. Again, I am not responsible for any of this. I need to stop taking my bucket to an empty well. They are never going to notice me. They are never going to have empathy for me. I cannot live my life as a sacrifice to them and forever keep trying to please them and not living my own true, authentic path. All of those things are important. Here's the part that I'm saying is never. This is just. The work is. And then when you tell your parent, no, no, I'm not coming to dinner this Sunday. I'm not. I didn't feel good last month. I'm taking a pass. Really? You're not coming? I was making that special thing and I really miss you and I'm thinking of you and, and you know, I'm getting older. 94, 90% of people are going to break under that one and they're going to show up and guess what's going to happen at that dinner again? The criticism, the humiliation, the devaluation, the invalidation, right? So I say to people, you got two options here. Either be with the. The guilt of saying no, or go to the dinner with realistic expectations that when you. And almost make it a game, like a personal bingo, you know, it's not quite a drinking game because if you took a shot every time they invalidated, you'd be loaded before the main course came. But if you. I, I literally have done this where I'm like, okay, I'm going to collect points at this dinner for every five invalidations. I'm going to go like, like, I'm gonna get a scoop of ice cream or. And then, like. And then it's like a little thing that pays out during the week. Like Tuesday, I'm going to get ice cream. And on Thursday I might get a massage. Like 15 invalidations is usually a massage for me.

And that keeps you objective.

Yeah. And I'm like, I'm gone in. I'm like, do it again, do it again. Do it again. With 13, I really want the massage.

So let me ask you this question. So should you ever confront a narcissist? Like, somebody's going to come listen to this podcast and be like, all right, that's it. I'm calling dad.

Nope, nope, I can't. If we only said one thing in this entire podcast episode is never ever call out a narcissist, we will be giving the single most brilliant piece of advice. Wow.

I need to hear more about this, but I gotta take a quick break so we can hear a word from our sponsors. But when we come back, Dr. Ramany, I wanna know, why is it that you say we should never call out a nurse's Alexis? How about we say hello to the all new Alexa, the shortcut that makes your life feel so much smoother. Need last minute concert tickets? Craven your favorite restaurant? Takeout. Alexa remembers what you love and makes it all happen. You don't need to type, dig through apps or repeat yourself. Alexa has got it. Alexa works with Echo, Fire TV or any compatible device and brings more of what you love to you right now. Ready whenever inspiration strikes. Amazon.com NewAlexa Looking ahead means you gotta be making choices and decisions that push your life forward. One of the biggest decisions, finding a car that's gonna take you there. Cars.com makes it simple. With up to 50,000 cars added daily and more than 2 million possibilities to choose from, you'll find the car that fits where you're headed. Because wherever life takes you next and whoever you're ready to become, there's a car for that on cars.com visit cars.com and start exploring your next possibility today. You know how you have that one friend that you always go for relationship advice to or the mentor at work who's got your back when it comes to career moves? Well, when it comes to travel, Expedia has your back. Trying to decide between a vacation rental and a hotel, Expedia makes it simple to compare options and find the right fit for every trip. Plus, you can book flights, rental cars, cruises, hotels, vacation rentals, even activities, all in one place. Bundle and save on your next trip with Expedia by adding a hotel or vacation rental to your flight. Book your next trip with Expedia today. So, Dr. Ramany, why do you never call out A narcissist.

I'm going to temper that with it depends on what you want. If you're doing this because you want to say, it's like a gotcha moment, haha, I see you, okay? And they're going to rage at you and they're going to scream at you and there might be a smear campaign now and they may be telling everybody out there that not only you, an ungrateful kid, but you are the narcissist and you're the one who's harmful and everybody needs to keep their distance from you. And I mean, they will really do such a number on you that. And they're not going to change. So if all it is for you to say, I see you, I think the better way to do to play that is you see them not change your behavior, Stop being supply for them, stop engaging with them, stop taking the bait.

So are you saying if you call home and the first thing out of somebody's mouth is, haven't heard from you in a long time, you should not say, you know, the phone works both ways?

No way. No. If you know this person's narcissistic, absolutely not. So they say, haven't heard from you in a long time. And you'd say, no, you haven't. Oh, and well, and then where are they going to go with that? Because what you've done is you've taken away the volume. They're playing tennis, you need to play solitaire.

Can you give us some other role plays?

So put, put another conversation starter out there for me.

Why don't you come to Thanksgiving?

And the assumption in this one is, why don't you come to Thanksgiving? As this person's committed fully to not.

Going to, you got to come to me.

Okay? So you go, this is where. And I'm going to step back before I role play that, that I'm going to introduce the concept of true north. Okay?

True north.

True north.

Okay.

True north is a big healing, what we call healing technique for folks. Or at least it's a more of a management technique than healing. I should say True north is that you need to figure out what in your life is worth fighting for. So maybe you're not going to Thanksgiving this year. Not only because you don't want to see them, but it's your, your, your kids playing football that day. All right? And you do not want to miss that football game. Or you do actually have a big deadline at work the Monday after Thanksgiving and you want to get it done. Or you said tack with it. This is the year we're actually going to go to. You're going to go camping or we're going to go to Hawaii for Thanksgiving. Okay. Because that's what my family has always wanted to do. My. You know, whatever.

Your friends.

You've decided to take a trip with your friends. Your true north is what is healthy for you. Okay? So you've got to be clear on that.

It sounds like it's a balance between how much guilt can you tolerate, Right?

Kind of. It is. It isn't because the guilt is people. People feel guilt when they believe they're doing something wrong.

So.

To which I'd say, what did you do Right? You feel guilt if you committed a crime, if you're guilty if you stole something, you feel guilty if you cheated on someone. So when people, My clients tell me all the time, I feel guilty. I'm like, tell me what you did wrong. And that's when I get the pause. They're like, I don't want to go to Thanksgiving. I'm like, where's. I'm sorry. So help me understand where that's wrong. Well, that's what they want. I'm like, I hear that, but how is that wrong? Because the axiom to that is not doing what they want is wrong.

Okay, everybody, did you hear that? This is a huge takeaway. So if the lights are going off in your head and you're. And you're starting to go, wait a minute, I definitely either had a parent that had some narcissistic personality, or I'm in a relationship with somebody like this. The reason why you feel guilty is because if you don't do what they say, that's wrong.

Correct. That's exactly.

And that's what you were trained to believe.

You were trained to believe that is. And if you had a parent like that, let's say this is even happening in your committed relationship or your marriage, then that's another time when you were almost indoctrinated into believing not doing what another person wants is wrong. And I, like, make the argument about it.

For me, this is foundational because what happens is the tantrum throwing, the shaming, the gas. I didn't say that. All the adolescent tantrum behavior.

Adolescent toddler.

Yeah. Is what actually has trained you to believe that not doing something that that person wants is wrong. That's why you feel guilty.

That's why you feel guilty.

Holy shit.

Yeah. Wow.

How the hell do you get rid of that programming?

Well, first of. First of all, is one of the only paths Forward to healing is getting comfortable with being uncomfortable, right?

I don't like that answer, and I.

Know people don't like that answer. I'll tell you why. Everyone goes to the damn gym and they lift the weights and they do the this and they're crossfitting that and they're in pain because they want a hot ass or they want abs or they want arms. They want to look good. Why are you willing to tolerate pain there and you're not willing to tolerate pain here? Pain's pain, folks. Oh, okay.

I mean, I thought I had learned everything there was to learn about narcissism from you, but I'm having major breakthroughs right now and insights. So should authentic or empathetic people. How do we protect ourselves from narcissists in life?

It's a tough one. I think that it's. Every so often, Mel, Every so often. And they're like that perfect seashell that's not cracked you find on the beach. I find these people who have never encountered narcissism. They had two loving parents. They grew up in a happy home. They love all their siblings. They met someone in college, they fell in love. They both got good jobs. I hate these people. No, I'm just kidding. I do.

I wish this was everybody.

Honestly, for them, I'm happy for them. And those people just like you talk about narcissism to them. And I could be talking about like the, you know, like just some sort of. Like, they think I have a tinfoil hat on. They really do. And I get it. I get it because they have absolutely no schema for this. That. But going back to the world of the authentic and the empathic, that's also. Especially the authentic folks. It's a rare group, being authentic. Here's the thing about authenticity, Mal, and something we lose. And I think it really gets brought into stark relief when we're talking about narcissism. People talk about authenticity like it's an easy thing. The hardest thing in the world is to be authentic. Because to be authentic is to be unpopular. To be authentic is to blaze your own trail. Even when other people are cluck. Clucking at you and stigmatizing you and looking, giving you the side eye. What are you doing? Like, people don't do that. You know, you're supposed to do the sort of missionary position, follow the rules kind of life. And authentic people say, no, that's not who I am. That's not what I'm about. Authentic people are very clear on their values, what they stand for. What matters for them. And so I'm not saying that authentic people don't feel guilt. They'll feel tremendous guilt. But they'll also feel committed to the potential within them and the people they care about. And to say, ultimately giving into this person's abuse is not doing, honestly, me any favors, for sure. It's not doing my kids any favors. It's not doing the people I care about any favors, and it's actually not doing them any favors because it's reinforcing them in this sick cycle. And I don't want to be part of this. So we've got to get away from the idea that authenticity is easy. Authenticity. Authentic people actually often have smaller social networks than other people because they've called away all the dead weight. They've cleared away all the branches that are, that are dead. Like, they, they said, no, I will not have people around me that are unhealthy, that are invalidating. I mean, it's, it's, it is a brave stand, and it's not an easy, easy stand. And some people say authentic people are selfish. They're cold, they're uppity. They'll, you know, that they'll, they'll really paint them in like, oh, who do you think you are that you get to do that? And all the authentic person is doing is trying to draw a boundary against unhealthy people. It is not easy to do because a lot of people feel like, you gotta go. You have to, you have to put up with the unhealthy people. That's what we do. Families stick together and all that kind of stuff. And to which I say, no. I mean, why would we punish a person for, again, genetic bad luck for the rest of their lives?

Is it normal for people to listen to you and start to worry, am I a narcissist? Because I'm also sitting here going, oh, my God, like, do I kind of sound like this sometimes? Like, when I'm frustrated, Like, is this me? Like, now I'm starting to worry, like, did this get, like, is this my personality?

So here's the thing. All of us, all of us and sometimes even every day have moments when we're not graceful. What we need to look at is how quickly and how authentically we make amends. So if you snap at someone at work that you catch that, that and within, you know, very quickly say, that was not okay. I am, I, I, I take responsibility for that. You, you know, you are not responsible for that. I was having a bad day, but that's not your problem. And so I apologize that we. When we, when we do those things. Now, no narcissistic person in the world is ever going to do that unless a publicist makes them. Or.

And then you can tell.

And then you can tell that they don't want to do it or, or because they're trying to save face. Or they'll send, say, my favorite, the. The narcissistic apology, which is, I'm sorry you feel that way. That's how narcissists apologize. I'm sorry you feel that way. Oh, I'm like, oh, hell no. The minute I hear that, I'm like, this conversation's done. And I don't storm off.

I usually.

I'm very. You gotta learn your sort of like, nod Mona Lisa smile and say, you know, I gotta jump. Now, some people say that's passive aggressive. Well, there's no, there's no path forward. And if I'm not in the mood for a fight, you'll say, you know, okay, you know, I gotta jump. Thanks again. And then close off the conversation on whatever else needs to get done.

Can you talk a little bit about family roles where there are narcissistic parents? I found that to be fascinating.

Yeah. So in a narcissistic family, and assuming there's more than one child, and even if there's not, that child could still be placed in a role. We have some sort of classical roles that kids fall into. And roles are never healthy in a family system because in a way you can. Can see that each of these children are either being put in the role or have taken on this role as a survival need versus a child just getting to be a child. Right. So the number one classical role, sort of the golden child. Right. This is the child who has been anointed by the narcissistic parent. It could be that that child is. It resembles the parent. The child is getting a lot of validation from the world. They may be good at something and so that they're. They're the one who is, you know, always, you know, I don't know, doing well at sport or people like them or they sing well or whatever. It may be that the parent is like getting a lot of validation. So they make that child the golden child. Now, usually to have a golden child, you need another sibling to sort of create that dynamic because that other child's not the golden child. Right. So it's clear they're sort of a chosen child in the household. Go. Do golden children remain golden children permanently? Not necessarily. If there's a point at which the golden child decides to step out of ranks or do something that aggravates the narcissistic parent. They will. The crown shall be removed from their head. The other primary role in these families is the scapegoat. Now the scapegoat gets the worst of it. And I would say in some cases, the scapegoats get it so terribly. In narcissistic families, they come out of childhood with something that looks like complex trauma. They are constantly criticized compared to other kids. They're literally not given. One kid's tuition will be paid for, and the scapegoats will not. The scapegoat will be expected to get a summer job to help the family. The golden child will get to go to some special camp like it's a stark market difference. The scapegoat will endure abuse that other siblings in the family don't endure. Why is the scapegoat the scapegoat? It's hard to know. I've heard every reason in the book the scapegoats and simply knows they're the scapegoat. And it is actually a. Because the scapegoat is a terrible legacy to take into adulthood because they will forever wonder why. What was it about me?

What do you have to say to somebody who's listening saying, that was me?

You know, I would. We'll start with trauma work, you know, validation of their experience. Because for a lot of scapegoats, they were told you were treated no differently. So we start with straight up, you were treated differently. That happened, and that's the foundation. And you. You kind of jump. You grow from there. And that this was real and that then you explain to them how narcissistic families work and how narcissistic personalities work. Because ultimately it wasn't their fault, Wasn't the scapegoat's fault. The next type is what I call sort of the helper. You know, the helper child is almost like a sort of a personal assistant. They are constantly exhausting themselves to do things for the parent. They may watch younger siblings. They might try to keep the house clean. And they'll feel like they have to do this. Not to be like a responsible player in the household, like everyone doing their part, but because they feel that this is the only way to get seen, recognized, or avoid the narcissistic parents abuse. Another type of child we see is the fixer. The fixer is almost like this mini diplomat who's trying to insert themselves in at all times. Trying to make sure. Like for example, if you have a narcissistic parent and a non narcissistic parent, there can be really terrible verbal abuse, sometimes even violence, but more verbal emotional abuse. And that fixer child will constantly be inserting themselves. And they're almost like a court jester to keep the parents from fighting. They will stay up later than they want to to make sure that the parents don't argue. They'll try to. They'll often sometimes even fall on the grenade so that there's not. They'll sometimes try to protect the escaped. So that's the fixer.

One thing that really struck me in what you're saying is having one parent versus two. I guess I just assumed there was always one.

Oh, there can be two.

Two narcissists are attracted to each other.

Oh, heck yeah. Why? Flashy, superficial, grandiose. We're gonna be the greatest thing ever. We're gonna save the world together. I'm hot, you're hot. Let's go be hot and save the world. You don't think those people are drawn together?

Oh, actually that's true. You see them all over social media.

Social media, L.A. all the time. And those. That's a nightmare scenario for a child because nobody. They only pay attention for their children when it's a good social media moment. Like I'm a mom blogger and they've got their sort of teeth whitened kind of husband smiling. And the children are in white shirts. White shirts. Who puts a child in a white. White shirt? I don't think I. I never owned anything white for my children. Now they're like in their 20s, so. No, but they've got the white shirt and the white teeth and the look at us. And. But then when the cameras are off, not so interested in those kids anymore.

That's true. And kids know when it's.

Kids know when it's phony. Exactly. And so they. And that's a new way. This is the first generation of kids that were raised from social media. With social media from front to back. Yeah. The data now needs to be collected. That's. But we've now also. But we've forgotten about the truth teller. The truth teller is a profound child in the narcissistic environment. This is the kid who sees it and gets it. And they don't have a vocabulary for it. In some ways they're a bit horrified because they're like, oh God. And the truth teller struggles. The truth teller may have fantasies of like, oh my gosh, I wish this parent would leave or I hope they never come back. They're terrible. This is awful. Now, this truth teller can overlap. You'll have scapegoats who are truth tellers. You'll have helpers. The helpers, not so much. Poor helpers are sort of like lost in their trying to make mama martini kind of thing. But the scapegoats can sometimes be truth tellers, but the truth teller can sometimes ultimately be scapegoated because in a weird way, the narcissistic parent almost has this sense that that little kid has their number, and it brings up a lot of shame for that parent. So they'll try to silence that child and almost do the equivalent of almost, like, excommunicating them, like, putting them in the cheap seats and ultimately, like I said, scapegoating them. And then every so often, there's the brainwashed child who thinks the narcissistic parent is just great and doesn't see it even into adulthood. And when other siblings say, you know, mom's a narcissist, and they'll say, don't say that. She gave up everything for us, you know, you're too selfish to see. So they're like. Like, they are fully in the cult.

Dr. Ramany, you are unbelievable. Thank you for my personal therapy session.

It's funny how that happened.

Oh, my gosh. I learned so much. And I think there were a number of things that really stood out to me. Obviously, you can't change the weather in Chicago. That's relieving. I also love that insecurity is at the core of someone who's a narcissist, and that helps me distance myself by feeling a little empathy. I know that's weird, but the empathy is kind of tied into the guilt a little bit. Like, I actually feel bad. I wish this person were happy.

Yeah. And I think that, are they happy? Because they don't know they're not. And in that balancing act, Mel, of one thing that so many survivors are afraid of, like, ah, they're a narcissist. It feels so dismissive to them, is, I don't want to lose my empathy and my compassion. Empathy and compassion doesn't mean you hang out and be someone's emotional punching bag. Empathy and compassion means that you can gracefully step away. And even if they're raging at you, you don't need to get in the mud with them because you do recognize that they're having their pain. But empathy and compassion doesn't mean you forever remain someone's prisoner.

That's beautiful. The other thing that I learned in this episode that was incredibly helpful and I'm sure was helpful for everybody else is the moment that you said when we role played about the calling. Like, I haven't heard from you in a while. That idea that they're not thinking about you unless they need you.

Correct.

Even though they're suffering, they need supply.

Right. Narcissistic people care deeply how things. Things look to the world. So it looks good to the world if you show up for dinner, if you show up for Thanksgiving, whatever it is. Right. That's what it is their supply comes from. It's not, did we have a loving, compassionate Thanksgiving even if we ate it out of takeout boxes, does it all look good? Doesn't matter if everyone's miserable. I mean, if I screamed at everyone. I need the picture. I need the picture. I need the picture. Right. So it's supply. It's all about narcissistic supply. So. So they need you there. They need someone there. By and large, narcissistic people need other people. Some narcissists are introverted. By. By and large. It's an extroversion pattern we see in them. But it's the. I need. I need to look good. I need you to tell me I'm great. I need you to come over and I need to feel like, look at me, I've got a big family. Not that they care about the people in the family. It's just like, look at everyone around the table. This is my family. Like you're a thing, you know, versus human beings who may actually, that year may have had an incredibly difficult year. And that's a year you don't want to get on the plane or you don't want to drive the four hours or you've been not feeling well and you're. For a compassionate family member to say, hey, listen, I. You know, I'll even send you. I'm going to send you some taken. Get some rest. I love you. Like Thanksgiving is about that. We care.

Wait, people do that?

Yes, they do. And yet. And again, that. Those are our agreeable folks. Folks. But no narcissistic person's ever going to do that. Imagine, though, that was your reality, that someone's like, hey, you need to do what feels. You'd want to show up. You're like, hell no. I'm driving through a snowstorm to get to you. It's too cool to spend time with you. So the very person who'd give you permission to say, you need to do what feels right for you is exactly the person you would probably trudge through like the rain to get to. Whereas the narcissistic people, they feel entitled to you being there when they want.

You there, which is why you also experience a lot of rage. Right? Okay, this has been so amazing. Now, when we let our audience know that we were gonna have you on the comments, the forums blew up with questions about dating and work. And so we're gonna have you back. We gotta do part two of this conversation, and we have to focus on dating, how to spot it, what to do. I wanna talk about work. And so we will definitely have you back. But you also have a tremendous amount of resources for people. And I know that you're thinking as you're listening to this or you're watching us on YouTube, that, okay, I gotta dig in deeper. I wanna go deeper into my own healing. And so I'm super excited that you have so many resources. And so we're gonna link to everything in the show notes and also in the comments here on YouTube, because here's the thing, everybody. She's the world's leading expert in this, and I know that we've spent a lot of time talking about narcissism and understanding it, so you can spot it, so you can get some distance from it, so you can understand the biggest takeaway. She kept saying, it's not about you. It really isn't. Like you did nothing wrong. It feels like it is. And you're not changing the weather in Chicago.

Correct?

Absolutely amazing. You are a complete gift.

Thank you.

Thank you for all of your wisdom, your time, your expertise, the tools, the learning today. And it's just every time I spend time with you, it deepens my healing. It makes me smarter. I just love having you in my life. So thank you.

Thank you so much, Melcie.

My pleasure. I can't wait to have you back. We're talking dating and work next, people. Here we go. And for you, in case nobody else tells you today, I love you. Dr. Ramani loves you, too. We believe in you, and we believe in your ability to not only create a better life, but to heal from the things that are painful in your life. And we are both here to support you. So thank you for spending your most precious time with us, Stitcher.