Darius Rucker on Resilience and Reinvention

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Welcome to the hbr ideacast from harvard business review. I'm alison beard. Most of the guests that we interview on this show come from the world of business and management. But from time to time, we also like to bring in people from different fields for their perspectives and lessons on professional growth, resilience and success. Today we turn to a famous musician who's topped the chart in not just one, but two genres. Depending on your age or location, you might know Darius Rucker as lead singer of the massively popular 1990s band Hootie and the Blowfish. Or you'll recognize him as the solo artist who defied stereotypes and expectations to become one of country music's most prominent black voices for many years. His new memoir is called Life's Too Short, and I spoke to him about how he turned a college hobby into a career and then transitioned into a successful second act by following his passions and ignoring haters and staying humble.

Your relationship with music of all kinds seems rapturous, almost spiritual. How did you turn that passion, which you had at a very young age, into a profession?

Oh, I mean, a lot of luck. Music's been so much a major part of my life since I was a young kid, and knowing that at 4 and 5 and 6 years old that all you want to do is sing. For me, the passion just turned into work, which turned into success. And, you know, because they'll, you know, you have that old saying where if you do something you love, you don't work a day in your life. That's really how I felt. I just wanted it. If I wasn't as passionate as I am about music, I don't think I would have ever made it.

Let's talk about that hard work of the music business, because in your book, there are moments when it seems like quite a grind. You know, before Hootie hit it big, you spent years playing bars and clubs, first in the south and then all over the country. So what kept you going?

First thing that kept us going is we were loving what we were doing. We were just getting to play music, and it was getting bigger and bigger. Every time we played someplace, more people were there. So that kept us going. But also we knew that someday somebody would give us a chance, and that's all we wanted. And when we got the chance, we made the best out of it.

Did putting in all Those hours better prepare you for when that break did come and you did get famous and you had a chance to play larger crowds.

Oh, absolutely. I don't think we would have been the touring band or the stage band that we were if we had made it early. Because all that came from years of playing small stages and biggest stages and trying to figure out how we do what we do. And all that work for seven or eight years helped so much when we finally made it, because all the stuff that we would have had to learn about playing, we were already doing.

And at the time, grunge really dominated the airwaves. You were different. So was that a conscious decision to be innovative, to sort of think outside the box? Or was it a case of just doing what felt good and getting the timing right?

Oh, no. It was just who we were. It wasn't. You know, I guess we started before grunge hit. Then when grunge hit in the early 90s, knew we even talked about it or tried to write songs that were a little harder or a little darker. Just wasn't us. You know, we write a song that just. We'd play it live, and it just didn't work. Cause it wasn't us. And so we just decided, instead of joining them, just keep doing what we do and selling the way we sound and let's see what happens.

Right. And so the authenticity is what, you know, eventually panned out?

Oh, I think so. I think when we got our record deal, people were surprised that we got a deal because we weren't grunge, and grunge was king for everybody. But I think when we finally got out into the airwaves and got on Letterman and stuff, people realized that, you know, well, no, we want this. You know, I don't know what's happening over here, but we want this. And that was great to be a part of that and to watch that happen.

Talk to me about the challenges of working so hard and so closely with. With three bandmates for so long. You know, how do you deal with conflicts and stay collaborative?

The hardest part, I think, was realizing that you have to put your ego aside for the good of the band. Cause that's what you have to do all the time when you're a band like us. Cause when you think you're right, but three guys think you're wrong, you lose. I think learning to put our egos aside when we're talking about stuff with the band and also just listening instead of always talking, that was one thing that I've always loved about our band is we listen to, you know, and we want to know what your opinion is and, you know, maybe why your opinion's that way. Because it might change my mind. Being in a band was help for us. It helped us all grow up. It helped us all just learn how to be in a group and how to be in a equal group like we are. And I think it helped us in all parts of our lives.

Was it a weird transition then, when you became a solo artist?

Oh, yeah. At first it was really weird because the little things that you don't care about in a band, you just don't worry about them. Somebody else will do it, somebody else will give their opinion and whatever they want, great. But when you're solo, everything is up to you. And so you'll have to be on top of everything. And that was definitely a big difference.

You've now sort of had two big acts, if you will, in the music business. How have you managed to stay engaged and avoid burnout? Especially because you are sort of still that hardworking, grinding, touring musician?

I think one of the things that happened was when I switched over, I think if I'd stayed in Hootie a couple more years, I would have had extreme burnout. We had been doing it for so long every summer. It was a job. But when we decided to stop playing and I switched, it was like a whole new thing. It was like I was a new guy again, and I had to do all the new guy things. I wanted to do all the new guy things. And that experience definitely kept me from getting burned out in music. And now I just still love to play so much. I mean, writing songs or just going in the studio just still gets me so hyped because I just love making music.

That transition, though, to country music, so it's not just going from being in a band to being a solo artist, but also changing genres. That was a big risk career wise. So why did you think it was worth trying?

I wasn't looking for success. I mean, I just wanted to make the music. I'd been talking about it for years, and I just wanted to make a country record. I wanted to. I wanted to. And I wanted to find somebody to let me do that. So I was never coming into it going, okay, I'm gonna come in here and have all these hits, and I wanna open up the door for more African American artists and all that stuff. No, I came over here thinking, they're not gonna play my record. They're not gonna care about me, because I'm the pop guy and the black guy. So it's like, just go make the record you wanna make and have fun with it.

So you start with small ambitions.

Yeah.

And then they increase as you go along.

Exactly. Because if you were smart when I came out and you really looked at the situation, for you to sit and go, okay, I'm gonna have big hits in country music. Would have been lying to myself. I mean, there was nobody in country music that looked like me for 25 years. I know the stigma of the carpetbagger. You know, the guy who comes from pop and wants to make a country record for a second and goes back to pop. You know how that's frowned on in Nashville. And so when I looked at the situation in a realistic way, which I like to do, there was no chance I was gonna have the success if I got a top 20 hit that was gonna be huge, let alone, you know, number one. So I just went in thinking, I'm just gonna make a great record, so maybe they'll let me make another one.

And even when you were the frontman for Hootie and the Blowfish, you know, you faced some pretty blatant racism that you talk about in the book. You grew up in the South. You started your career in the South. So how did you handle those incidents? And has the way you respond to it changed over time?

No, I still respond to it the same way. I don't think this is what I thought back then, but success is the best revenge. And for me, when I heard those things, what I thought to myself was, I could go over there and fight this guy, or I could let what this guy say affect me to the point where I stopped playing this music. And then they win. Anything I heard at a show or anything like that, that's stuff I'd heard in my life walking around the streets. So just like, you know, if I could deal with it there, I can.

Deal with it here, and I'm gonna rock this crowd. And then they're not gonna be able to say those things anymore.

Exactly. You go out and you're great. You know, one of the things that I will never forget hearing in my life, we played the KA House at Tennessee, and we killed them. We killed them. We were so great this night. And we're packing our stuff up, and three frat boys are standing behind us. They don't think we can hear them. And one guy says, that's the best band we ever had here. They were awesome. I can'. They got an end singer. I was like, wow, wow, wow. Do you hear yourself? But, you know, you hear that stuff, and I'm not gonna let it bother me. I'm gonna keep playing music because if I let that bother me, they win.

That takes a lot of resilience, though.

It does. It was a lot of times I wanted to fight, but, you know, it was 40 of them and four of.

Us going back to that grind, the transition to country music, knowing that you might face hostile reception for a number of reasons. You decided to, even though you were already famous, sort of travel to radio stations around the United States to sort of reintroduce yourself as a country artist and talk about your album. Why was that hands on, sort of retail politics approach best?

Because, first of all, I wanted everybody to see that I wasn't coming over here saying, look, I'm a New Year Bofish. Everybody should be playing my record, especially my label. I wanted them to know that I'm the new guy. And I want you to know I know I'm the new guy. So I'm gonna do all the new guy stuff because that's the stuff that's gonna make me have success. And I also thought that if we went in and I met some program directors or music directors and we sat down and we talked and had a conversation, someone might like me and go, okay, I wanna give this record a shot. And it worked.

So it was sort of relying on your, you know, the music humility, but then also your personality, sort of them.

Absolutely.

Knowing you as a person, not as Hootie, exactly.

Not just that guy who was in that big rock band. You know, just knowing me as Darius and getting to know, you know, what I'm like and who I am. Going to those radio stations and meeting people, they liked me, you know, and I liked them. And we'd see each other in Nashville and hang out and have a beer and everything. And I think that went a long way. That radio tour was the reason I made it.

As you approached this solo artist career and had early success, how did you think about sticking to that same lane that was successful versus being innovative and trying new things?

I just wanted to reinvent myself as a whole different kind of. Not my personality thing, but just what I do. I just wanted to reinvent myself as just a whole different kind of singer. And it's like Mike Dungan said that signed me, you know, I never got that Hootie stuff, but I always thought you were a country singer. That's how I've always felt. Like I'm a country singer. You get different songwriters and different people that you want to work, you know, different producers or different singers you want to write with. But then there's also guys like Ashley Gourley that, you know, you could sit down and write five songs with him. And every. All five songs are totally different. Ashley knows the songs you've already written, and he doesn't want to write that song again, and that helps a lot.

And obviously, you had a huge hit with Wagon Wheel, which was a cover. So how do you make covers your own? How do you make something old new again?

I always love to just start by pretending when you're playing it it's never been played before, you know, and that's what helped us a lot when we were recording Wagon Wheel. Everybody heard it, everybody knew it, but we were like, you know, what we know is the bluegrass version. Let's play it like George Jones was gonna sing it or play it like Charlie Richard's gonna sing it or something. Let's play it like a real country tune. And that's how we approach that.

I have to say, one of my. This actually came on my playlist yesterday. Your cover of Losing My Religion with Hooty is excellent. I love it so much.

Ah, thank you. I do, too.

And I'm seeing you at Fenway, so play it there.

Oh, okay.

So let's talk a little bit more about the music industry and country in particular. There have been a lot of changes, you know, from radio to streaming album to touring. Has that affected at all how you operate?

Oh, goodness, yeah. I mean, it's changed the business. 180. In the 90s, when we were selling records, the only reason you went on tour was to advertise your record. You were making money on tour, but you were making crazy money on records. And nowadays it's the exact opposite. I mean, there's no money to be made in making records. The only reason you make a record is to advertise your tour. That's just changed. 180.

And that's a lot more work, right?

Yeah, it's a lot more work. You know, I mean, it used to be great back in the day when, you know, the charts would come out on Friday or whatever, and, you know. You know, you sold that many records, you know, now it's streaming or whatever. You really have no idea. You see these numbers and, you know, 30 million streams and you get paid $10 or something. You know, it's just. It's crazy.

In terms of the country scene, do you feel as if it's more inclusive now? Both for artists and the people who are listening to it, the audiences.

Oh, absolutely. You know, it's definitely more inclusive than it was 16 years ago. When I came in, there wasn't anybody who looked like me. Not just on the charts, but nobody looked like me that had a record deal. And now you see all these labels signing Kane, who's playing stadiums, and Willie Jones and Warren Treaty and Britney Spencer and all these folks getting record deal and getting these duets and stuff and getting these shots. I love to see it. I'd love to see country music looking more like America.

And you've obviously been a role model as a black artist in country music, but have you done other things sort of behind the scenes to improve the way it operates?

No, you do. The thing that's been really cool for me is I've had people have meetings with me just to talk about that, well, how can we improve this? How can we do that? You have an opinion on that. And it's great to see people caring. It's great to see people wanting to improve how this is instead of people fighting against it. Like I'm sure there was for 25 or 30 years, people just going, nope, not in my business, not in the country music. And now it's not that way. Every label is looking for a person of color that's great. So they could make a record and go see what happens and then make careers. And it's great to see that happening. And it's great to see country music growing up a little and then just being, like I said, looking more like America.

In those years when you were the sort of lone person that people pointed to when they said, oh, country's getting more diverse. How much pressure did you feel?

The pressure didn't start until after I had a hit. Like what I don't think went to number one. And then alright was next. I went to number two. I went to number one also. That was when I started thinking, okay, I don't want it just to be me. What can I do to help other artists of color get in the door? Just sit in somebody's office to give a chance to get a record deal. And so I do as much as I can, as much as, yeah, I do everything I'm asked to do, but I do as much as I can and that's what I'm gonna keep doing.

Yeah, but it didn't take any sort of psychological toll being the only one for a stretch of time.

No, because I've been the only one Since I was 19 when I joined Ring of goldfish. You know, when we were playing clubs, we'd play a night, you know, with four bands, and I'm the only black guy in the place. You know, we walked into rooms of 15,000 people. I was the only black guy in the place. So I was so ready for country. There was nothing they were gonna do that was gonna make me, you know, upset or anything. Okay, throw your best shot, man.

Yeah. And you must be following the discussion and conversation about Beyonce's new country album with a lot of interest. What's your view, you know, in terms of the reaction that.

I mean, Beyonce could put out an album of, you know, Gregorian hymns, and she's gonna get a reaction, but she came over the country. I love it. I love the eyes she brought to it. I love the press she brought to it. You know, I'll be honest with you. It was a little disappointing, you know, seeing people say, you know, she's down the only one fighting for black people in country music. I'm like, me, and I've been here for 16 years, man.

Yeah.

The record's so great. It's so undeniably country and people. I'm just so glad to have her there. I wish she'd called me and put me on the record, but I'll be okay.

The next one. The next one, yeah.

Exactly.

And I have two professors writing a piece about sort of lessons for business leaders from Beyonce's sort of initial exclusion from country music and how she's handled it. And I said, I'm interviewing Darius Rucker today, and there really needs to be a paragraph at least on how he handled it, too. So don't worry. Tell me a little bit about sort of how you get feedback and respond to feedback. You know, there's critical acclaim and there's popular acclaim. Do you pay attention to both? Neither one more than the other?

I don't really pay attention to either one. I was lucky. I guess you could say lucky, you know, Hooties Wolf, if you've never been to critics, darling, I mean, even when we played clubs and we were outselling everybody else, we weren't the band that people were writing cool stuff about. We've never really been to critics, darling, So I never expect to be. You know, when I put out a record, critics love it. I'm surprised. So with that, I don't care. You put out records so people like them, and so that's something that's important, you know, the success of your record. If it's getting streams, if it's getting sales, if it's doing all that, that's important. But the critics, I mean, music's subjective. I hate this that we think there's somebody that can go and say this record's bad. And everybody now has to say this record's bad. You don't know it's bad till you listen to it. Cause it might be bad to him, but it might not be bad to you. You might think it's great.

Yeah, I love how eclectic your musical taste is. The book is organized around different songs, your own and others and everything from Al Green to Kiss. So let me ask you about your voice. It is totally one of a kind. How much of it is natural born talent versus building it to be where it was when you were the lead singer of Hootie and where it is today.

Oh, I've never taken a lesson or anything like that. It's just what it is. And I think a lot of it's natural talent, but a lot of it's also singing for 40 years. Then having to learn how to sing different genres of songs and different, you know, being in a cover band who would play REM but would also play third bass but would also play Bill Withers. When you're in a band like that, you learn to sing a lot of different stuff. And also just the music I listened to growing up, I always sing all different stuff. So a lot of it's just self taught, trying to sing like other people. But most of it is God given talent.

Just to wrap up, you talked about luck at one point during this conversation and two lucky breaks in your career really stood out to me. David Letterman hearing one Hootie song on the radio and inviting the band to play on his show, which then propelled you to this sort of level of huge fame. And then also you hearing the faculty band at your daughter's school talent show playing Wagon Wheel and it becoming your biggest hit. So how do you think about the role of chance versus that God given talent and then also hard work in your career?

Oh, I think, you know, I think you need talent to make it for sure. But I think you equally need luck. Look at my career, you know, if that DJ in New York doesn't go renegade and play Hold My Hand that afternoon, are we here? You know, am I even here?

I think he also just liked the band name too.

Yeah, exactly. You know, do you look at that and you ask yourself here, you know, if. If I didn't go to see Carrie's talent show that night, you know, I'm in the middle of making a record. I leave Nashville, fly all the way to Baltimore to go to this talent show, when I'm getting on the plane and going right back to the next morning to go to the studio and I go to do that because that's what you do for your kids. And if I'm not there and I hear Wagon Wheel, I don't have that big hit because I would have never cut it. I would have never thought to cut it because I knew the song. I loved the song. It was just the bluegrass song. It wasn't a country song until I heard it like that. And so I think luck has got a lot to do. I know it does for me.

Well, thank you so much for your time.

Thank you very much.

That's Darius Rucker, chart topping musician and author of the memoir Life's Too Short. And we have more episodes and more podcasts to help you manage your team, your organization and your career. Find them at hbr.org podcasts or search HBR on Apple podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen. Thanks to our team, senior producer Mary Dew, associate producer Hannah Bates, audio product manager Ian Fox, and senior production specialist Rob Eckhart. And thanks to you for listening to the HBR IdeaCast. We'll be back with a new episode on Tuesday. I'm Alison Beard.