Ep. 14 - Google supports India to become the 3rd largest economy in the world

So I think that ecosystem makes a place like Silicon Valley unique. I know many, many local authorities, governments around the world try to replicate, okay, can we have our own small Silicon Valley? But these three or four factors have also a network effect attached to them, which makes it incredibly hard to replicate the whole thing. But you can do it in pieces and it's maybe a journey you will see the first wave of entrepreneurs in any region probably have the hardest time because they're trying to change the cultural mindset in that environment. They're trying to create new frameworks of structures of support of startup ecosystem, make it more acceptable, risk taking wise. But then the next wave kind of stands on their laurels and they benefit.

In depth interviews with the most influential innovation executives of the tech arena. Exclusive data and insights on major and emerging ecosystems all around the world. The hottest news on technology and open innovation at a global level. This and much more in every new episode. Welcome to Open Innovation Talks. Mind the Bridge chat with industry leaders. All right, good morning again from Silicon Valley. This is Marco Marinucci from Mind the Bridge. Today we have the pleasure to have with us an ex colleague of mine, Uttam Tripathi from Google. Uttam, good to see you.

Marco, good to see you as well. Good morning.

Good morning everybody. And Uttam actually has a couple of roles there. So reading from your profile LinkedIn profile, you are both head of global developer programs at Google and also the head of the American ecosystem and startup accelerators, is that correct?

Yeah, that's right. So we have two hats. One of them is how can we scale our global community efforts? Developer community efforts driving awareness, education, adoption, feedback around all the Google developer products that we have, from Android to Tensorflow to Web to Google Cloud platform. And then the second part of the team really focuses on the American ecosystem. So US and Canada and Latin America. And within that, one of our flagship effort is all the accelerator programs that we run. So those are the two hats I wear.

It must be very busy because those both areas are I think particularly relevant for Google. Maybe we can start from that. Is Google. I mean it's pretty obvious, right? In particular on a development era development program. So maybe we can start from that. So which kind of activities you normally run to kind of develop also links and ecosystems of developers in different parts of the world. And what is your role there?

Yeah, happy to talk about it. And you have been at Google, so I think for someone like you it will probably be very straightforward. Google is in the business of digital ecosystems, so the stronger digital ecosystems worldwide actually helps Google Business long term. Well and that's why a lot of efforts around bringing businesses online and efforts around that have been foundational. The two efforts that my group focuses on, the first one again like actually let me start from the startup accelerator side. So Google for almost two decades or around that time has had efforts of investing in startups. We had Google Ventures, Google Capital, now gradient Ventures that invest in companies. But one of the things that was lacking few years ago or we found as a gap is engagement with early stage startups from a tech feedback perspective from understanding their use cases, how our developer products can get better for for them. And this was the genesis of why we thought of launching an accelerator program. The intent there was not from an investment perspective. Our accelerator programs are free of cost and we don't no equity changes hand. But the intent there was if Google has to grow as a company that is a top choice for developers and builders to consider as they are thinking of building their applications and solutions. How, how can we continue to innovate? So that was why the accelerator program started. And the same also applies to our developer community programs. Because There are almost 20 to 30 million developers worldwide. A good chunk of them use Google's developer products. But it's also a very competitive environment and I think if anything last one year has demonstrated that with the advent of AI and there are more choices available for developers which keeps us humble, honestly and on our toes on continuing to innovate. That's why more effort around both of these areas and I'm happy to talk about either one of them in detail. I know you, that's.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So so obviously also for our audience the, the startup side is more relevant. But let's cover first the other one so we can get out of the way. Because I'm, I'm intrigued in particular when you say it with the new waves of, of AI even the role of developers and programmers overall the world is a different place in the last couple of years. And so what do you guys normally do? What is your KPI? You know that everything at Google is driven by KPI OKRs. What are the OKRs on the developer relationship sides and then your interpretation what you think is going to happen to try to engage the right audience.

Yeah. So at Google when it comes to our developer relations and developer work, our OKR is not tight around revenue which actually is good. And it really helps us to take a little bit more medium to long term view. There are other parts of company and company as a whole. Of course revenue is important but when we're thinking of building programs, products for developers, taking a little bit more medium term view helps us create solutions. So let me take as an example like this year has been all around AI, generative AI and then as part of that we had things like Palm APIs getting rolled out. Of course we had version of Bard going out early in the year. And when it comes to developer relations, the exercise starts from building awareness. Do more and more developers know that your platform or your API exists. Once that step is met, then you move into the education phase where you want them to go through the test, the curriculum, the certification so that they are ready to start using your API and platform. The stage after that is adoption, where you learn what exists, you try to learn it and now you're ready to start using it as part of that whole journey. There's of course going to be feedback and a good developer relations organization. Developer programs team has that two way channel where we are not just sharing externally, but bringing the voice of developers within the company, bringing it to the product team so that it could be part of the future roadmap. All of this is something that the team does now. For each product we might be focusing on different areas. Like for product A, the focus might be more on awareness building, but for product B, it might be more around adoption or education. Because at Google, as I said, like there are multiple developer codes that we are trying to support, which also is important from a staying agile mindset. Like we can't execute the same template year over year, the market dynamics shift and change. But around AI, a lot of our focus has actually been from awareness building to education to adoption, to also feedback. Given the pace of how everything is moving and that's where we are moving ahead. This is also an area which humbles you constantly given the nature of what developers are creating and how can you continue to stay up with their needs.

I wonder if the. So you've been doing this for a number of years in terms of engagement with different regional hubs, is this process evolved over time or kind of? The hubs of developers where you guys are engaging is kind of similar over time.

So I have been in developer relations for a little over 10 years now and to your question, the hubs have largely remained the same, but what has changed 10 years is a long time. The size of those hubs and the growth trajectory of those hubs have significantly shifted or changed. A couple of examples, if you look at the growth of developer landscape in places like Nigeria, in Brazil, much steeper growth trajectory compared to Places like US or Western Europe. US of course still is the number one developer market, but some of these other countries are growing at a much steeper pace, much faster rate. The same goes is true for places like India. China is a slightly different developer landscape which is, which is a little bit more like inward looking but from a size perspective has also grown. And in a lot of our work we do focus on developer hubs. Our team is also regionally distributed. We try to be where the developers are so we can run the programs on the ground. So yeah, in some way the hubs have largely remained the same, but their sizes have evolved which when you take a forward looking view then you change a lot of your resourcing decisions and where you want to invest more versus less.

Interesting. What incentives are you creating today 2023 for early developers to start using, you know, Google tools?

So a lot of our incentives focuses on how can we help developers be successful. Like if you are a, if you are a developer or even a small startup with say two or three people, you don't want to worry about scalability, you don't want to worry about security, you don't want to worry about like going to market quickly and having a lot of technical understanding of building the solution. You just want to solve for problem. And the promise that we try to put in from Google's perspective is if you're using things like gcp, you quickly get started building on the same stack that exists and that powers Google's own products. Right. So you are getting the best in class, security, scalability, localization, internationalization, all of those things. Right. And I think that's a strong incentive for anyone who's trying to build a solution go out there and quickly scale. The other piece is trying to anchor our solutions around technologies. It's not that technology will just go away overnight. So if you invest six months or you're learning a new programming language, but the uses of that programming language within other developer products or platforms is not as strong. Your chances of getting stuck with that is very high. So a lot of our focus is on, on building solutions that get recognized as industry standards. And that's where a lot of work with open source communities as well. So a developer looking to build with Google, our promise is we are invested in helping you be successful in what you're trying to do because your long term success translates into Google's long term success. And as part of that helping you get out what you're looking to build rather than get stuck in worrying about scalabilities, security, AI Tools, all of those people pieces got it perfect and I.

Think it's a good segue into the next chapter. I mean one of the potential successes of some of the developers is that it build a company around an idea and a product. So here comes your second hat as as a head of America's startup accelerators. So those are specifically for people that are entrepreneurs. Right. So I'm not sure to what stage of development do you expect people in the different programs that might have different, different rules. So maybe can give kind of an overview of all The Different Today 2023 programs that Google has. And I remember again when I was still at Google that was the kind of the seed of Google for entrepreneurs that became Google for startups. So I mean it goes way back when, right. These programs and support of the new waves of, of entrepreneurs. So give us a flavor of what's the, what's the really the focus on the current sets of accelerators at Google.

Yeah and as you very rightly put like this has been part of Google's DNA from the very beginning. Like how can we stay engaged with the startup ecosystem with the entrepreneurs and we can support them, support them in their own growth journey because a much bigger digital ecosystem that's growing and thriving is actually useful, is beneficial for a company like Google. And within that lens, as I talked earlier, a lot of our startup accelerator program, again it's not primarily driven around investment goals, not primarily driven around equity changing hands. But the intent there is how can we help the next wave of entrepreneurs be successful on Google's platform? How can we help them build what they're trying to build using Google? A lot of our own focus there is learning. So being humble because typically what happens is an entrepreneur will test your platform and push the envelope a lot more than an enterprise developers because they are operating under various constraints. So they're going to really stretch test your product which is great because then that feedback helps us inform our products going forward. Within us specifically, which is one of the markets that I oversee. We also run programs that focuses accelerated program that focuses on underrepresented groups because it's what's, what's true universally in a sense is certain segments have underrepresentation when it comes to growth of digital ecosystem. And if you're looking to build a fairer future than what exists today, we need to really provide more, more resources, more, more support in certain areas. That's where we have programs like our Black Founders accelerator, our Women Founders Accelerator, Latino founders. I've seen Latino Founder accelerator that we are working on and a lot of that is really around creating more opportunities. We also have a lot of new effort around sustainability and climate change, which is a topic which is getting relevance worldwide to be honest. And if anything this summer you, I, you're talking about us, our travels. I was in India and you were in Europe and you are starting to see that the, the changes that climate change is creating around us. It's something a lot of builders are also thinking about. And how can we make Google's resources available to solve problems around that. Our accelerator programs are cohort based. So it's typically a six month cohort. We have open applications followed by interviews and selection. A typical Cohort consists of 15 startups and the program runs. We have an onboarding getting started week and then startups continue to work in the solutions and then we have closing sessions followed by demo day. The other thing that startups get as part of the accelerator program is access to Google mentors and industry mentors. It's a list of highly curated mentors that we work with. It ranges from technology areas to go to market and all of those pieces. The sweet spot for a successful startup to benefit most from our accelerator program is somewhere around series A. So either just before pre series A or post series A is where we feel that the startups get the most value and that's where the program is optimized for and in each. For each of the accelerators then we have three or four other specific criterias like for example in certain ones we may want to focus on for example fintech startups or healthcare startups. Typically each cohort also comes with a flavor but the best place to get started would be if you'll go to developers.google.com community. That's where you can start learning about all of our developer programs, but also the accelerator programs and dive down into each of the specific ones and the.

Accelerator since we're giving plugs away here is startup.google.com accelerator yeah, that's the other.

Link through which you can navigate but to developers.google.comcommunity you can also navigate through there. So we have made the discovery slightly easier.

Is this specifically for developers founders or is that obviously I think to a common denominator there is that I guess the development framework. But do you expect the founders to be a developer as well or. Not necessarily.

Not necessarily. We do expect someone in the founding team would be technical because a lot of our and this is where Google we think we can add most value if your startup is technology focused or Technology is, is really powering what you're trying to build as a, as a startup or as a company. That's where we can bring a lot of value. If you are running a startup and you have nothing to do with technology, you don't use technology at all in your solution, etc. We may not be able to add the most value. But having said that, your startup doesn't need to be developer focused, you need to be using technology developer platforms to build a solution. And that's where we see most of the use cases coming in. A majority of our startups that get selected into the cohort have, for example a CTO, but they will have very often the CEO that's non technical but that really is passionate about going to go to market or business or partnerships. And that's majority cases.

Those are a rolling basis. Right. So maybe you can talk about the process, how long does it take to be selected and again if there are big differences between from program to a program in terms of. Also are you giving grants away or is mostly support and free mentoring using the large mentors from Google?

Yeah. So few questions to unpack. The first one is yes, so a lot of our accelerators are operating on a rolling basis. For an individual one we do have those stages. So we have open applications followed by selection, followed by onboarding. Right now across Americas we have approximately 10 accelerators going on. So some of them might be in open application stage, some of them might be in the ongoing cohort state, some of them might be getting ready for graduation or demo day and that's how we try to load balance the entire year. Also the effort of the team and how we are trying to support multiple accelerators but for each one of them what we try to do is the websites that you reference earlier and then we'll hopefully put the link as part of this video as well. And also on the podcast folks can go there and we keep it very updated in terms of which cohort is currently accepting applications. We typically try to give four to six weeks of open application where folks can submit their interests and then we take it to the next stage of filtering and selection. In terms of the incentives, we don't do grants. We did used to do grants for our very, very first accelerators in 201415 and the feedback that we heard from the community is like grant is good. But honestly a lot of startups and founders were getting the value through the program itself and then the fact that they're part of a Google accelerator made their journey of raising funds Elsewhere a lot more easier for us. Grants was becoming a constraint in scaling because every new accelerator that we had to start or then we had to go and ask for more budget as soon as when we realized, okay, this is not the most important thing for the founders, but it's help is kind of preventing us at scale. So we ran few accelerators without grant and the feedback actually was almost the same. So a lot of value that we try to provide. Again, the best of Google in terms of resources, connections, access, technology, the program and curriculum itself, the core group and the peer group that gets formed is also very useful for a lot of these startups. We also try to stay in touch after the program so it's not that the cohort is over and you don't hear from us anymore. We try to stay in touch with startups after the program itself and help them navigate if they need anything.

Yeah, and I, you know, I can testify because you've been one of the mentors and nice mentors of some of our programs and really there is a genuine interest in maintaining a channel open with the multiple routes within Google because now Google has become for actually quite some time a galaxy. It is somewhat difficult to navigate. So it's always good to have an entry point that can help you guide through the navigation of different units, different companies now within Alphabet, if not, if not products from within. I would like to pick your brain now kind of looking forward Also based on the experience of the probably thousands of entrepreneurs you've been talking to, what does it take for in particular a region and policymakers to create the right incentives and the right elements to to be thriving in terms of the amount of innovation that can come or being attracting as a result of policy. So this is a wider discussion that goes over our heads. Both of us, we as Mendel, Bridget, we've been focusing on that actually be more significantly the last few years, we do actually have a program that is called the Startup Ecosystem Stars really to recognize the best practices among the different government organizations able to push for more, you know, what we call outbound and inbound innovation. So both to be able to export the best projects and innovation in different regions and to attract talent, both human talent and sometimes resources. So I wonder if you know, across the, the regions that you deal with, if you, if you have a few, a few ideas now of a few examples of some of those policies that then being translated into, into things that have a real impact in the local economy. And obviously as part of that conversation we want to talk about India because That's where you just back from. And I'm sure a lot of of those examples are coming from there, but maybe let's generalize one second and then.

We can go down to India. Yeah, no, happy to talk about that. So as part of my career journey so far, again, I grew up in India, worked initially there. Actually I mentioned to you I lived in Europe as well for almost a year. Not in stretch, but in different fragments. I was in Switzerland working as a 30 minutes the south of Zurich in origin, but Zurich was like just 30 minutes away by train. So that German speaking region of Switzerland as well there my role was a researcher in a university. But can you get an exposure of how the ecosystem is there and how things are moving and then last 10 plus years here in the valley, one of the things and I actually started the value first and then we can shift maybe to India. To your conversation. What makes a place like Silicon Valley so unique is the amalgamation of multiple things. I think this is one of the few places of such high talent density that exists right now on the planet. And therefore it's not by serendipity that when there's breakthrough innovation that happens in any new area, and this has been all about generative AI, it comes from place like a space like Silicon Valley. It's not serendipity, it's by design or by structure of how the space exists and the factors there is. You have top universities that are in this vicinity. You go from Stanford to University of California, Berkeley, which is really creating talent, creating like a lot of ideas that get created in those spaces. Then you have a lot of role models, a lot of successful entrepreneurs who call this place home and who are very active in giving back, but also investing and staying active in the, in the ecosystem. Of course it's great from a, from fundraising and capital perspective, but also it's great in terms of that mindset that gets created of risk taking. And the young founders, then they see role models around them, encourages them. And then finally if you are a startup that's getting, starting to be successful, this high talent density that has been created by companies like Sun Microsystem and Google and Meta and others just gives you abundant talent to hire from. So it's not that you can't scale like you can literally scale to any size despite staying within Silicon Valley. So I think that ecosystem makes a place like Silicon Valley unique. I know many, many local authorities, governments around the world try to replicate, okay, can we have our own small Silicon Valley? But these three or four factors have also a network effect attached to them, which makes it incredibly hard to replicate the whole thing. But you can do it in pieces and it's maybe a journey you will see. The first wave of entrepreneurs in any region probably have the hardest time because they're trying to change the cultural mindset of that environment. They're trying to create new frameworks of structures of support of startup ecosystem, make it more acceptable, risk taking wise. But then the next wave kind of stands on their laurels and they benefit.

Yeah, yeah. But don't you think that a change in a mindset though is the hardest thing? Right. Sometimes it takes a generation of successes. Right. It's not something you can change from one day to the next.

Exactly. And the benefit I think for the last three or four decades is globalization is making it easier for people to discover success cases from elsewhere, so that pollination of ideas is becoming easier. But you are exactly right. Like some of this cultural mindset takes forever to change. And I think this is what's going back to go now going to the India piece. I think this is where since India got independence in 1947, the first wave of generation, or the first couple of generations was actually coming out from a colonial mindset where for you house hundreds of years, India was a British colony and you get trained to live in a certain way where you have to be compliant and a government job is probably the safest thing. If you land into that, follow rules.

Right.

Follow the rules and just live with that. And also scarcity, scarcity kind of comes in your mind, but then you have a breakthrough moment which starts to unleash things and then that snowball effect hopefully catches up.

Yeah. So I saw your blog post, recent blog post that you just back from a couple of months in India, probably the longest for definitely pre Covid time from post Covid time. And you sounded very bullish in where India is headed in terms of the ecosystem of startups. What do you think is now? Right, because we've been talking about the wave of outsourcing as what, 20, 30 years back. The IT development places like Bangalore is not new at all. So what do you think is different now that Wasn't already there 20 years ago?

Yeah, so you're exactly right. I think this was the longest I've been in India after the pandemic. And one of the things I realized in the first few weeks or I was noticing is a unique set of optimism that was just around like, of course, India is in this build mode. A lot of infrastructure coming up. You go around in place like Bangalore, Hyderabad, Mumbai or even tier 2 cities like Indore or Gurgaon, which is not Gurgaon is actually tier 1. But even in tier 2 cities like Indore you see this palpable excitement that people are building and creating. And I was trying to just check myself, is it just me who's noticing it? And then I talked to a bunch of peers. Many of them who are in the same phase haven't traveled to India for three, four years and then traveled. And then I came across this LinkedIn post by ManU Gupta, who used to be at Google and right now is in a very senior role at Microsoft. And he posted the same thing. So I said, okay, this is a phenomena that many others are noticing. You are exactly right. I think India's journey, those of you are familiar, 1991 was India's almost getting to that brink moment where the country was almost going bankruptcy. They had to really put up a lot of their gold to raise money. You have to give away your goals to raise money to really give enough Runway for the country to survive and continue the imports. And the moment that change after that is India just embraced globalization, starting to open the markets for international investments to come in. This was the first time, I think where India, a lot of Indian generation that was growing up at that point of time started to feel okay, like what opportunities lay outside of the shores of the country. This is the same time when companies like Infosys were starting to scale their business and the globalization movement. But what's changing now more specifically is the shift from services IT services to IT products. A lot more Indian entrepreneurs are, are looking to build product based startups and then services based startup. The Indian economy in the last 20 to 30 years has also again, it's not in the size of US economy. It's probably six to seven times smaller, probably 10 times smaller. But it's sizable enough that you can think of building a product for the local ecosystem, local market, you can raise money for that and you can even attain a stage status of being a unicorn. So India for example, when I left in 2014, had two unicorns. Last year India had 100 unicorns and they added three or four more this year. So going from like two unicorns to 100 unicorns last year, just from the size of the startup EcoSystem, now the third largest startup ecosystem on the planet. Which is, which is pointing to all of these factors of a massive build moment that's coming along. Which is, which is something that you notice, I think that optimism that people Carry around is also very, very contagious. Because.

Back to the mindset that we mentioned before, when you feel an environment that is contagious, clearly those are the topical moments where things can really shift and change. I mean, I think it's pretty clear that the trajectory is what matters. And now the feeling is that the economy has really placed as a potential third largest economy in the world. Coming up with China having some troubles, all the eyes are now on India and rightly so.

Yeah, I think the forecast is India to become the third largest economy over the next three to five years, which again for the size of the country probably is. India is also the largest, it has the highest population now. So it's also. We have to balance it with that. I think around optimism, the point that you make is if a large section of your ecosystem thinks that the future is going to be better than the present, that brings the element of optimism that makes it easier for you to motivate your employees, your team members to create. And to be candid with you, I think the western economies have been missing that a little bit for a variety of reasons. Right. So that I think that adds to a massive tailwind where things are moving.

And we can talk about what is happening today because I mean the softbank and the tighter global of the world, I think they made Essequoia as well by the way that then spun off, made some, some push into, into the, the India market with 2023 is a total, total different year. So maybe we can talk about that a little bit and you know, to, to also balance out the, the big excitement and now also reality check that is happening around the world with most of the funding at minimums slowing down by a significant amount.

Yeah. So what happened during the pandemic years and this is where economy like India has benefited with the focus around remote work and you can literally work from anywhere. I know a number of my friends in India who were actually like through the pandemic till last year were not sitting in Bangalore. They were sitting in their hometown in a tier two, in a tier three city, working for a US company or a US client making like almost a US salary. And this is again like the fact of globalization and the new models that are possible with the pandemic and more acceptability for things like remote work etc. Now in all and the other thing that you mentioned, some of those VC companies, what also has shifted is each of these companies now have local offices in places like Bangalore, Mumbai, Hyderabad, national capital region. So if a startup founder is trying to raise fund. They don't have to fly all the way to Silicon Valley. They actually talk to Sequoia Softbank folks in the local ecosystem. You take a flight to Bangalore, go and have a meeting. Makes it easier for you to get going on those conversations. Now what has happened in the last couple of years and you're seeing this worldwide but gets more amplified in regions with high growth trajectory is I think there was high valuations that got created, a lot of fear of missing out left to investors really running after startups with their checks. And that correction started last year, first half of this year continued. But what I'm also noticing is in a lot of startups like in their founder, like for example Zomato who came out there with their earnings a few months ago in paytm are taking pride that they are focusing on profitability. The conversation around profitability is taking center stage because so far it was all around like growth, growth. You capture the market and then once you good size then you'll worry about profitability. But that sanity is also returning and I think that's good. So some froth gets created and it leads to a little bit more healthy ecosystem.

So same thing that is happening here by the way in any other developed ecosystem where there was a lot of excitement a couple of years ago, now there's sanity that is getting through. Last question is about the back to the policies. I know that you think that the special economic zones policies, policies that happen around, around India is something that has benefited the ecosystems. Maybe we can talk about that a little bit.

Yeah. So special economic zones, when I first or the first thing, first time I read about them, they were experimented within China like in, in late 70s, early 80s when China was trying to develop itself as a manufacturing hub. Specific special economic zones were created as these physical locations where if you set businesses over there you get tax incentives and you get professional preferential treatment. Also from permitting, setting up the business, registering everything. And I think it has contributed to China's success to a large extent from growing from a manufacturing hub. So India adopted this policy in 2000 year 2000 and started to really focus. Initial phase was focusing on special economic zones around IT companies and software companies. I think that has helped to a large extent attracting investments because in some cases you get these 10 year tax holidays. So if you set up a company in a particular fiscal location, in addition to cutting through all the red tape, you don't have to go through like multiple offices to get your business going. It's a little bit more streamlined effort. But financially you get this window where you can actually it's a financial incentive for you. And then after that, once you have developed a footprint from a policy perspective, the way policymakers think is, then it's going to be harder for you to switch. Right. So if that ecosystem is working for you, you'll hopefully continue and the ecosystem thrives. I think places like Bangalore have benefited, Hyderabad has benefited. More recently Google talked about setting up one of our offices in Gandhi Nagar, one of our fintech offices there, in a place called Gift City. That's coming up again, one of the special economic zones that's coming up over there. And there's also research around how special economic zones is not a solution for everything. But to a large extent I think it has helped in the ecosystem and now there's a lot of focus within the country on special economic zones around manufacturing functioning because that's the other area the country wants to grow in. So. So I personally think that has helped post China and in India in terms of the growth journey and where they're moving. So some, some something for policymakers in other countries to look at. Okay, like how does this work? Will this attract investment come businesses to, to our country? Where does it make sense? So other conversation, there's equity. You don't want to set up an SCC in a place which is already thriving. Rather like do you want to spread it out a little bit? So that's again a consideration for policymakers.

Excellent listen Utam. So thanks for all your insights. Thanks for being value partners of ours and a good friend and to be always available for startups and developers. So do you want to give a place where people can find you? Is that LinkedIn the best option?

The best, yeah. LinkedIn, Twitter, super active there so folks can find me there. And happy to connect. Also thanks Marco for being an amazing partner over the years in this conversation. I really enjoyed it.

Likewise. All right, take care. See you soon.

Bye bye bye.

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