Escape Your Comfort Zone

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Welcome to the HBR IdeaCast from Harvard Business Review. I'm Sarah Greene. Michael, there's this diagram you've maybe seen. It's about getting outside your comfort zone. There's one large circle called your comfort zone and then a smaller circle well outside it called where the magic happens. Sure, it's a little cheesy, but that hasn't stopped this doodle from plastering the walls of college campuses, workplaces, maybe even your own cubicle. And it also appeared on the HBO television series Girls. You get it, right?

Yeah, I get it. Of course I get it. Here's your comfort zone.

This is where the magic happens.

So like, the magic happens outside your comfort zone?

Yeah.

Uh huh.

Okay. But there's something missing here. According to Brandeis International Business School professor Andy Malinsky, that's the path from your comfort zone to where the magic happens. And in his new book out this week, he explains why that path is so difficult and outlines the way out. The book is called A New strategy to help you step outside your comfort zone, rise to the challenge and build confidence. And Andy Molinski joins me now. Welcome, Andy.

Thanks, Sarah. Happy to be here.

It's great to have you.

Yeah.

So how can you tell if you're avoiding something that is making you uncomfortable just because you're sort of it makes you uncomfortable and you're avoiding it, or because there's a really good reason?

I think we're really good at tricking ourselves and tying ourselves into psychological knots around these issues.

My dad likes to say that smart people come up with the smartest excuses.

Exactly. A question that I like to ask myself and that I like to ask people who I work with on helping to learn to step outside their comfort zones is it's sort of a thought experiment. If all of a sudden you could snap your fingers and make anxiety go away, just as a thought experiment, in whatever situation it is, you know, really eliminate it, would this be something that you'd be excited and happy to be able to do? So, for instance, if I were afraid of, you know, networking, of stepping into one of those loud rooms and you walk in and all these people are talking and you're thinking to yourself, who am I to be here? What could I possibly say? How am I possibly going to enter one of these conversations? And you're so nervous about it. You know, if you think to yourself, like, if you could erase that anxiety, is that something you'd like to be able to do? And I think that that question, at least for me, is very helpful in distinguishing, you know, situations where we've, you know, rationalized to ourselves, oh, it's not that important. From situations that, you know, if we could learn to cope and learn to step outside our comfort zones, might be a great addition to our repertoire.

I do hear people talk about networking a lot that way, and public speaking is sort of an obvious one. What are some of the other things you've heard people talk about that are kind of examples of this kind of thing?

So in my book Reach, I spoke with, interviewed, and also observed people in so many different professions. Managers delivering bad news, firing people, performing layoffs, police officers evicting people from their homes or repossessing property, doctors performing painful procedures on children, and also then having to explain this to the parents. I talked to rabbis and priests who had to step into. Now, it's funny because with clergy, you often necessarily think of the human behind the role, but who have to step into a room, maybe of people they've never met before and deliver last rites. And, you know, some priests say to themselves, who am I to be in this situation? Like, who am I to be able to do this? I talk with small business owners who are afraid to pitch and promote their ideas, who are uncomfortable with small talk in a networking event because maybe they're introverted. I spoke with a goat farmer who was so proud of the goat's milk soap that she was able to produce, and she was terrified to sell it. So there are all sorts of situations, you know, in our lives where there are things that we'd like to be able to do, to accomplish a task, to perform a new role, to step into a new job. But they're outside our comfort zones.

Yeah, Sometimes this behavior just doesn't feel authentic. We're trying to do something, and it's like, this just doesn't feel like me. Tell me a little bit more about how that can get in the way.

Yeah, so in all these situations, they're outside your comfort zone for a reason. And I've uncovered a series of what I call psychological roadblocks that, you know, oftentimes, if we just sort of think about it, we say, oh, it's scary, or it's fearful to step outside my comfort zone, or I'm so anxious. But what's really behind that? And one of the things that might be behind it is authenticity. The idea that I'm Stepping into this situation, and this just does not feel like me. I remember the first time I taught a class now in graduate school. I have a PhD in organizational behavior. And in graduate school, you might be surprised to know that we're actually not really taught to teach. We're taught to do research. I love teaching, but we weren't taught to teach. And I remember the first time I stepped into a classroom was at the University of Southern California in la. And I walked in there, I was much younger, of course, and the students were not that much younger than me. And I just felt like a complete fraud. Like, you know, like an imposter, in a way. And also totally inauthentic. I had to sort of. People were calling me Professor Malinsky, and I'm like, who's that? Oh, wait, me. It's like it just did not feel like me.

Yeah.

And there are many, many situations where people feel inauthentic, and that. That's a real barrier, I think.

Well, and that kind of points out one of the other challenges you talk about, too, which is the competence challenge, which did sound to me a little bit like the imposter syndrome, where you think, I can't do this.

Yes, definitely. And I think they're related, number one, and number two are very related. It's almost like a vicious cocktail of feeling inauthentic and also feeling incompetent. The idea that, you know, I'm stepping into this new role, whatever it might be, or this new task, you know, I have to go public speak. I have to deliver bad news, whatever it might be. And, you know, you're. You're afraid you're not going to be good at it.

Yeah.

And by the way, there's. You probably have some valid reasons to believe that. Plus, not only that, but you might be afraid that other people will see you as not good at it. So it's not only the anxiety of being not so good at it, but also the fear and embarrassment and potentially shame of knowing that your incompetence is pretty visible.

But how incompetent is it, really? Because you have in the book some really good stories from people like Natalie Portman, Sheryl Sandberg, Larry David, who have had this feeling, too, and talked about it. And they're not incompetent people.

Right, Exactly. You know, I didn't put it in there to make the book, you know, sexier. I put it in there to normalize it. Right. You know, Natalie Portman, in particular, she gave a stirring speech at Harvard commencement several years after she graduated. About her feelings of being an imposter. So she was walking around as a student at Harvard, and if you looked at her from the outside, you'd assume Natalie Portman, super confident, incredible actress. I can't even possibly go over and talk to her. But inside what she said she was feeling was like a total nobody and an imposter. And that, like, who am I to be here in this group? And she talked about it, and I think it's really important to understand that, you know, if you feel like an imposter, hey, join the crowd, right?

Yeah. One of the other concerns that you lay out as sort of the challenges we've talked about, authenticity, competence. Another one is likability. Maybe if you're trying to do something new, be more outspoken in meetings, or get better at giving tough feedback, it's already hard. But then you're thinking, maybe this will make this other person not like me. Is this something that you have also struggled with? And how have you dealt with this? And how have the people you studied dealt with this?

Yeah, I experienced this every single time I press send on a tweet. Like, you know, like in the world of being an author nowadays, you know, I didn't know this going into it that I thought being an author was writing a book. Right. And cool. You get to share your book. But, you know, in some ways you almost have to be your own PR firm. Not in like a bad way, but you have to spread the word. And, you know, when I first started writing these tweets and posts and so on and doing social media and I wasn't sort of that used to it before, I mean, I felt all these things. I felt inauthentic, I felt incompetent because I was doing it all wrong. These crazy hashtags and afraid that people would think that I'm like this crazy, boastful, awful person who is just like this self promotion machine and it feels like I'm afraid I'll be unlikable and maybe I'm right, Maybe some people feel that way. I think that's a real concern for a lot of people.

So how did you deal with that?

Good question. I think there are a lot of ways to deal with something like this. One important thing is that I had to do it a lot. If you're afraid of delivering bad news and you get up the courage to do it, and I talk in the book about finding a source of conviction to enable you to push through the discomfort, maybe also I talk about customizing. I don't know if we'll talk about this later. But the idea of finding your own way of doing it and so on, and you can do all that, but then if you're not delivering bad news for another eight months, it's probably not going to stick in a way, right? So I was constantly doing it, so that helped me. I think also it was discovering why I was doing it. Right. I wasn't doing it, I don't know, for any sleazy reasons, unsavory reasons. I was doing it because I care about this book. Someone once told me, you wrote a book, you shouldn't hide it. And I actually think that the ideas in the book can actually help people. I know they can actually. So I felt that source of conviction that helped me. Plus, I also found my own style, too.

You've mentioned customizing. So what does it really look like to customize the behavior that you're afraid of?

That was one of the most surprising and frankly exciting insights that I had from doing research with people across so many different contexts, so many different professions. You know, when we're stepping outside our comfort zone, I think oftentimes people feel it's a sort of a helpless and powerless experience. But you actually have more power than you think. And that's where customization comes in. You know, this morning you probably customized your latte, customize your cappuccino. We customize our cereals, our bicycles, our clothes and so on. We have the power to sort of tweak and personalize and customize the way we behave. And even if it's done in a subtle way, if it's done in a way that's meaningful to you, it's almost like making it a little bit more comfortable or putting a little bit more of yourself into it. Let me give you some examples. So, for example, if you are afraid of networking, let's say you might script out a few words that you know really help you to get into a networking conversation. You might wear your power suit. You are not feeling powerful, but you know what, when you put that suit on, you feel just a little bit more powerful. You get intimidated by very large, noisy networking events and it's really tough for you. Maybe you bring a friend just to know that that person's there. You don't want to cling to that person, but just to know that person's there. Maybe you go at the beginning of the event, because if ultimately the event's a thousand person event, it's super noisy, super stressful for you. It's not going to be a Thousand people at the very beginning. Right. So you can almost craft a very, very large event into a smaller event. Let's say it's public speaking, and let's say you're very uncomfortable with public speaking. Maybe there's a possibility for you to change it to a Q and A session. Maybe that's more comfortable for you. In fact, I talk in the book about how Richard Branson, the CEO of Virgin, he does that. Actually, there are a variety of things. Oh, and one other thing you can do is you can bring a prop. You can bring a prop just like an actor might bring a prop on stage. And sometime those props, it's not like bring some massive, obvious prop. These are often very subtle. I talked about a power suit. There are others, too.

Yeah, yeah. It's funny you mentioned a prop, because I immediately think I have a couple of items of clothing that always spark comment. It's like, you know, like a man would wear, like, a weird tie maybe, or like a subtly weird tie, and people would say, oh, what's the deal with your tie? Or, you know, I have, like, a big orange jacket thing that I wear sometimes, and people will say, I love your jacket. And it just is something that, you know, people are going to say, like, it's a conversation starter at those kinds of events.

Yeah, exactly. So I thought this was a cool one. I have a. I have a student who is very, very shy and uncomfortable making small talk, but she really wants to learn to do it. So she started bringing a selfie stick to social situations. Now, if you think about it, that's not only an ultimate conversation starter, but it's a conversation in social creator. Right. Because all of a sudden people are using it. And then if she takes pictures, she needs to get their email addresses. Or for her, it's probably like their Snapchat account or something, you know, whatever it is, right. So they can share. And it's like all of a sudden, it catalyzes the social interaction, when, in fact, if she didn't have that, she probably would have been in the corner sipping her drink or something like that. I was afraid of public speaking for a long time, and I used to wear a ring, a very special ring. It's a tiger's eye stone. It's a very unusual stone. And my uncle found it. My great uncle found it on the beaches of the South Pacific, and he had it made into a ring. And I always admired it as a kid. And it sort of, once I learned what it was about, it represented courage for me. And I started Wearing it. He ultimately gave it to me and I started wearing it to give talks. And, you know, no one knew that, but for me, it almost was like that. Just little bit of courage. So it might not just be one thing, it might be multiple things. And they're often very, very subtle, but they can just nudge you forward. So that's customization.

I actually have something like that too. My grandfather had an army bracelet that I would wear sometimes when I had a big presentation. And I'd think, you know, he fought World War II. What I'm doing today is really not a big deal.

Exactly, exactly. Exactly. And it's a sort of private, personal experience, but it's an example of customizing.

Yeah, yeah. One of the other ones is clarity. Can you give us maybe an example of what clarity looks like?

Sure. I think that when we're in situations outside our comfort zones, oftentimes we kind of go to emotional extremes, you know, especially when the anxiety is high. Psychologists call it catastrophizing. So we think of the absolute worst case situation and we kind of almost fixate on that, or some of us actually fixate on the other side of it. Like the ideal situation. We won't. In other words, let's say public speaking, like, I'm going to be awful. I'm going to be a total utter failure. I'm going to embarrass myself. So that's the thought going in. And do you think that thought makes you want to do it? No. Or the other extreme, maybe I'm not doing this unless I'm a prodigy. I've got to be not only a TED style speaker, but I've got to be the TED style speaker of TED style speakers. And so that's obviously unrealistic as well. So I think what clarity is, and I found among the people who are successful that I've worked with and that I talk to, finding some sort of reasonable, grounded perspective that's somewhere in the middle. So, for instance, yes, I'm scared to speak in public, you might say, but. But it might not be perfect, but I'll get through it. And I'm probably gonna learn something from it next time around. It might be just a little bit easier. So that's what I mean. Sort of a psychological middle ground. And I find that that is really important combined with a customization and the conviction to be able to push you forward in these difficult situations.

The other challenges you talk about in your book is how sometimes we might worry that the thing that feels uncomfortable actually is immoral and we might avoid doing it because we almost feel like it would be wrong to do this. How can you sort of sort through those feelings if part of you is really worried that the thing you're avoiding doing isn't just hard to do, but that it actually might be not the right thing to do?

Yeah, it's a good question, and that's a tough one. So I opened my book Reach with a story about a woman, Lily Chang, who had to fire her best friend from her startup. Now imagine that, like having to fire your best friend. And this is not a fictitious story, this is a real story. She felt a real, you know, serious moral qualms about this. It was, it was, it was gut wrenching for her to do it. But she had a source of conviction, which was that, you know, she had hired people to work for her company, they had left really good paying jobs and she felt committed to them. On top of that, she felt committed to the people who had provided funding for her company. Plus she also wanted to succeed and so on. So, you know, she had multiple sources of conviction that helped at least carry her through this very difficult moment. And ultimately that won the day. And she did it because it was the greater good was in her estimation, truly worthwhile.

So when you talk about some of the tips and tools and advice that you give people about really finding a source of conviction, what are some of the questions we should be asking ourselves to do that? What are some places we should be thinking about to find that source of conviction?

Sure, you know, it's very personal conviction and you know, it's different for every person and there are many different sources, which is the good news. So for instance, for some people, their source of conviction might be respect. That. For instance, you could ask yourself the question, you know, doing this behavior, will it make me look good in other people's eyes or will it win people's respect? Those types of questions. Another source of conviction might be skill development. Maybe that's what you really care about. And by the way, these aren't mutually exclusive. You might have multiple sources of conviction. But you know, for instance, doing this behavior will help me develop skills I don't currently have or maybe even improve existing skills. These are the kinds of questions, or maybe it's career advancement, or for some people it's about boosting their self esteem. You know, doing this behavior will make, I know it will make me feel proud. It's not easy, but I know it will make me feel proud. Or finally, for a lot of people, it's helping others for instance, doing this behavior, stepping outside my comfort zone in the situation will help me contribute to a cause I care about or make a difference in other people's lives. I think, as I said, it could be a combination of some of these, but these are the types of questions that you ask of yourself. And once you locate it and once you embrace it, it's actually a really powerful tool for you.

Part of what I want to do here also is sort of flip this around. So say that you are managing someone who you need to help grow outside their own comfort zone. How can you use some of these techniques to get that other person to reach outside their own comfort zone and try some new things? And how can you support them as they do that?

Number one, I would want to help them understand what their own psychological roadblocks are. So in other words, they might feel anxious, they might feel uncomfortable. But why? What specifically? And we talked a little bit about it. Is it authenticity? Is it competence? Is it likability, morality and so on? Right. Where is your pain point in a sense? Because I think that to help someone forward, you really need to, as you said, a finer point. You need to have a finer point on the anxiety or where it comes from in order to sort of develop a way of grappling with it. I think it's also important to help people. And this is really where that perspective taking of having a mentor or a coach or I'm not sure what context this is, but someone who's helping someone through the situation. I think it's really important for people to understand where and how and why they might be avoiding. In the book, I talk about all sorts of ways in which we're great at avoiding situations outside our comfort zone. Rationalizing, as we talked earlier about why I don't really need to do this. And I think it's really critical, that's critical to have sort of that real talk style conversation with someone to try to see where their avoidance might be happening. And then finally, I think it's very, very helpful to use the framework that I talk about in the book, the idea of conviction, locating your source of conviction, helping someone customize their behavior so that it feel a little bit more natural and authentic and then help them with that clarity piece to try to not fall off the deep end. Ultimately, what you want to do is you want to nudge someone, encourage them, motivate, incentivize, whatever your word is, get them to try it. Because I think that is the ultimate thing. When you try something, you can have some amazing Discoveries you can discover. Number one, this isn't as bad as I thought it was, and a lot of people discover that. And number two, I'm better at this than I thought I was. And that can propel you forward in a major way. So getting someone to actually do it and try it, that's the key, I think.

Yeah. Or I'm just as bad at this as I thought I was. But actually, it's not that embarrassing.

It's not that embarrassing, exactly. Right. I'm not that I can live, you know, it's like, I'm not going to die.

Exactly, exactly. How can we just develop a better attitude towards this?

You know the movie Swingers where the guy says you're more money than you think you are or something like that? Like, I think we have more resilience, more capability than we actually realize. Like, I actually wrote a Harvard Business Review article about this exact issue. That if you think about your life, you've been stepping outside your comfort zone your whole life. Right. You know, I have kids and I imagine some of the listeners do, and you know, when they move from crawling to walking, that's a big move outside your comfort zone. When you go off to school for the first time, when you go to. From elementary school to middle school to high school, from high school to college. I see that poignantly. I teach at a university, but it's terrifying. It's terrifying, but people do it, right?

So, like childhood is terrifying.

Childhood's terrifying. But you made through it, right? You made it through and that. Don't forget it. Don't let your past successes be like Teflon. Be non stick. Let them be stick in a sense, and carry that with you. And remember that you're probably braver and also more capable than you think you are. I think that if you can realize that you can turn the tables and that you have more power than you think, you can locate your source of conviction, you can customize your behavior, you can find that clarity, right? All those things that we're talking about, you can pinpoint where your sort of emotional blockages are and so on. That starts to make you feel a bit more in control. And I think that that's what starts to build resilience.

Andy, thank you so much for joining us today.

Oh, I really enjoyed it, Sarah, thank you.

Andy Wolinsky is a professor of organizational behavior and director of Brandeis International Business School's Perlmutter Institute for Global Business Leadership. His new book is titled A New Strategy to help you step outside your comfort zone. Rise to the challenge and build confidence. You can read more of Andy's work, including the article he mentioned. You're more resilient than you give yourself credit for at hbr. Org. Thanks as always for listening to the HBR Ideacast. I'm Sarah Green Carmichael.