Hacking Rio 2020 Keynote by Futurist Gerd Leonhard August 17, 2020

All right, everyone, we're not live yet, but close. All right. The sound of the Internet, right? So I think there's quite a few people out there. I think you can see me, I think. Yeah. Okay, hang on just one second. I need to change this. We have 10 minutes to go. Just hang on. Yeah, we're all trying technology here, so whoever's out there, it's really great to have you here. We're still sort of in the preparation of this amazing conference. There's like, I don't know, already 780 people signed up, and we only. We can only take 500, so. Guys, hang on there. We're kind of on hold now until 6 o'. Clock. Panelists are here. Yeah, you can raise your hand right now, but I'm not going to take any questions until we officially get started. Keep in mind, please keep your microphone muted until we ask you to speak. I know there are 75 people here already. You guys are bright and early. That's very good. Good. If you have any issues, you can use the chat button. Let me just see if there's eight people chatting. That's very good. Okay. Yeah, thank you, Harold. We can see and hear you. That's good. Okay. Okay. I'm going to send everyone this message on YouTube. If you want to share this event, you can send people a link to YouTube. That's this one. Okay. And so if you have a chance, you can Twitter. I will do the same right now. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Hello, Didier. Nice to have you here. Okay, so hang on just one second. Okay. I'm going to go off here for a minute just to have a quick drink of water, and I'll be back just in time at six o'. Clock. Okay. So I will take care of your messages until we kick off in about eight minutes. Thank you. All right, guys, it's good to have you here. We're not really starting yet. We have four minutes left. I just want to make sure everyone is okay and ready to roll. It's really great that we can meet during this pretty tough time and congregate and learn and help each other get through this. So it's going to be amazing. I think we have some great panelists here. I'm going to go put this on where it should go in the first place. There you go. Now you get to see my beautiful background here. Yes, the chat. We can use the chat. If you want to use the chat, we're going to take questions. However, only through the questions tools. The chat. Yeah, you can feel free to Use the chat with each other and with everybody else. Also, of course, we're live on YouTube, so you can also. I just sent out the URL, but it's on my YouTube channel. If you can't see the URL, just go to Gertube.com that's like my name. Gerdtube.com that's a shortcut, of course. But if you go to Gertube.com, you'll see the tab that says videos and then it says live streaming right now. So you can go there and put comments. But of course, you can only put comments if they are positive. No, just kidding. So use the chat box and stuff for each other. Otherwise, official questions, use the questions tab. Right. We can see because there's going to be a lot of chats here, so we're not sure we're going to get to the chats very much. So please do use the Q and A, which of course, on the lower part of the zoom interface on the bottom we have David Reinhold. Thanks. You got it. Okay. And there's an upvoting function. Okay. Up voting means you get to vote on people's questions and see which one we should answer first. The ones with the biggest upvotes will be answered first, obviously. We have four panelists, four speakers here on this conference today. We are going to take people who want to speak or make a contribution actually, with audio and video. We're going to take you as well if we can raise your hand if you want to speak. Okay. There's a raise hand function. I'm not physically raised and you can do that too, but I won't see you. There's a functional zoom where you can just raise your hand and then. So how. Our moderator will try to get you into the queue. We're going to start about one minute. So as a last minute, if you want to actually say something and be on camera, please make sure that it's good what you're showing us. Right. So no calls from this from the subway in New York. Well, that's out anyway. Nobody can go anymore. Or from the bus in Delhi. Try to keep in mind that you're live on YouTube and that the sound is decent. Okay, so let's give it a couple seconds here and then we're ready to roll. Keep using the question button. Okay. I mean, this is Switzerland, right? I'm in Switzerland. So we have to start on time. Right. So I'm going to stop the share and go to the. To the full panel mode here. Okay. All right, so welcome to the show. This is really exciting. You know, it's been a very, very strange thing. I think I'm more nervous about doing this gig, you know, virtually than I am speaking speaking in front of 3,000 people on a real stage. It's the strangest thing. And in the last couple of weeks, I've really had to learn how to use all the tech that goes with making a good online show. We're getting there, so bear with us while we're trying to make this happen. So it's great to have you here. I think these are very tough times, I think for all of us. Most of the speakers in this room are stand to not make any money in the next couple months. And I think that we have that in common with many people and the audience. If you have any technical issues, we're live streaming on YouTube. Just go to Gertube.com that's my YouTube channel. You'll see the live streaming tab. If you get kicked out, you can come back in. That may be because there's too many people in the stream, but right now we're still doing very good. We have 500 seats. So if you get kicked out, you can go to YouTube and just watch it there. You can also call in if you don't. You have Internet connection to use your mobile phone. You can use Zoom. There's a bunch of call in numbers. You can just call like the old fashioned landline and just listen to us speak. We can do that too. Okay, so before I introduce the panelists, real quick, real questions, not the chat. You can use the chat if you want, but we're going to take questions over the questions Tools. It's right on the bottom of the screen and you can upload and download other people's questions. So we have a priority list. If you want to speak, that is after the presentations, there are seven minutes each. You're welcome to speak, raise your hand and then Soha, who's our moderator, will get you into the queue. But make sure your audio and video is working. Let's drive right in. Okay, so I'm very happy to have with me. Let's start with Anton Musgrave. Anton, that's the guy with the fancy head thing there. Nice background. You're beating everybody else's background. So that's Anton from. That's Anton from Cape Town, South Africa. And there is Lise Lotte, right? Liselotte Lingsel from Copenhagen.

You don't like my avatar?

Yeah, I do. You show up twice there. That's good. Yeah. It's hard to figure out which one is the avatar and which one is you, but. No, but I'm sure you'll find out later. And there's K.D. adamson. Right. Hello. From the UK.

Hi.

She just started a new venture just today, I think, but she'll tell us about that shortly. And of course, there's our moderator. That's Soha Rashid, Egyptian American. She is the researcher and associate futurist here at the Futures Agency. So again, the whole thing is on YouTube. It will be archived. You're going to get an email an hour and a half about where to find the archive, the PDFs and all that stuff, and it's automated. If you go to my blog, futurewithsguard.com at 7:30pm, there'll be an automated update with all the slides you can download, if we have slides, and with the audio and the video. So, anything urgent right now? So what do we have any urgent questions or any technical issues? We can't hear you. So are you there? You're muted. Okay. No, I think we can proceed.

Right, we have the poll.

Oh, yes, very good. See, I knew you were going to give me an important point that I was forgetting. I'm looking at my sticky notes back here, but, you know, don't do this, by the way. I am just kidding. Look at the camera. So let's do a poll, just find out where you guys are from. We currently have 300 people online, roughly. So I'm going to do a quick poll and I'm going to launch it. The key question in this poll is where are you from? Where are you based? You get to make one choice, of course. So please just kind of type in where you are. So I need to know how many Americans are in the room so I could talk good or bad about America and Europe and Switzerland. Yeah, we're going to have a good conversation, I think, on this. Wow. From all over the place. That's pretty good. So usa, Canada, I don't know. Can you see the results? I'm not sure. No, you can't see the results now. Only we can see the results. I see there. We'll share the results later, of course, on the post. You can see it there. Right now we're seeing roughly 22% Americans, 51, Europeans, 8% from the UK, 5% from Africa and then Brazil and rest of the world, 9%. Well, welcome everyone. This is a very international audience. So, yeah, hang in there. No matter what your current status is, it's great to have you here. I'm going to end the poll and going to go into the first talk. Okay, so Anton, you're first delight us and you've got seven minutes to dazzle us with your insights. By the way.

Thank you very much.

Good.

And really great.

Sorry, sorry, Anton, just real quick for the participants. We're going to go 7 minutes presentation each and talk and then we have questions. Okay, I forgot to mention. So you have to hang out and listen to seven minutes of all of us and. Yeah, please, Anton, take it away. There we go. Good.

Thanks very much for the introduction and welcome everyone. It's really great to have you from all over the world joining us here this afternoon. The theme that I've chosen is really how do we rewire leadership? If you like to get ready for this very, very different world out there that we're facing. I think we all realize that what has happened is not something any one of us would have thought about on the 1st of January as we crack the champagne to welcome in the new year. I think the era that we're living in is captured by the essence of this image. We really are in an environment where there's these massive collisions taking place. Collisions between what I call the old world and the new world. If you think of some of these collisions, one of them would be the collision between the carbon energy industry and the new world's renewable energy industry. Massive friction, lots of vested interests, invested capital ranging from billions to trillions of dollars. And the friction between these two collisions. Of course, the most relevant collision right now is the collision between the old world of normality and the new world. And I've seen one of our guests has already asked me the question, will the world ever return to normal? And I guess my response would be, what on earth is normal? I'm not sure that that world will ever return. And of course, the longer this era continues of the coronavirus threat to the planet, the greater the chances are that that world will never return. So what do we really need to do in the short term? Well, my advice to all the business leaders out there, very simply is for the next three to six months, you have to survive whatever the universe is throwing at us. And we cannot predict what's going to come at us and exactly when the next phase, Horizon two, you might want to call it, is a rebuild phase. And that's after three to six months, for the next 12 to 18 months, where you regroup your people, reevaluate your entire business, and then establish the platform from which you will develop plans to grow your business two and three years out from there. But understand, I don't believe this is a short term issue. I think they're much larger issues that it will trigger and we'll unpack a few of those this evening. What it is going to mean, however, is a fundamental set of new rules which leaders will need to understand as we navigate our organisations into the future. These rules will impact on how we govern institutions around the world that regulate trade, globalization, how we think about the future of capitalism, rules that I think society will impose on us as business leaders, on how we measure success in our organizations. I suspect there'll be a much stronger shift away from the old success metrics of ebitda, roi, market cap, et cetera, et cetera, into a much more wide ranging, all encompassing set of success criteria. What it really means for all of us is that we need to fundamentally rewire our brains. We need to recalibrate our personal leadership radar screens of the signals that we're aware of, that we look for, how we connect them and what stories these signals can tell us. And one of the most important questions you need to start asking yourself in the short term is which of your core business assumptions that were valid in the old world pre COVID 19 will remain valid in the world post COVID 19? So these are the assumptions that drive your balance sheet, your profit and loss statement, your business model, your engagement model with your staff, with your customers and with ecosystems around you. Which of those will remain valid? All of those that won't remain valid post COVID 19 are what I call toxic because they infuse your thinking today with germs that prevent you from really engaging openly with a very, very different future. And if you think about that element of toxicity that existed in a very large global multinational corporation called Microsoft, what changed from that all organization that was under massive pressure to even survive despite its size and its impact in world markets, it was really struggling. And in came Satya Nadella, a new CEO. And the first thing he did was address the toxicity in the organization from a culture perspective. He really got his leaders to rally around, re establish the purpose of Microsoft, learn to work together, to trust each other and to act as one. And after that he introduced shifts into the business model and, and the technology platform, et cetera. But we all know that in the last three years Satya has made a massive difference to that organization. It's bounded back and is now one of the most powerful companies on the planet, or at least it certainly was. And that makes me think Back to what happened just a few months ago with Elliot Kipchoge, that runner that broke the two hour barrier for the marathon. And when you think what he had done and what he achieved had never ever been done in, in history before, it came down to three very important words. Firstly, you have to have the total unequivocal belief that you will succeed and you will do what's never been done before. That's a crucial element in business today. I believe you have to ignite the desire in your teams to want to do that. And you have to unlock the passion of every one of your people in your organization and across your customer and supplier base. And so I would suggest that all of us as leaders today, if we're going to reimagine our organizations in whatever follows COVID 19 we need to ask of every decision we take from this day on, ask ourselves these five questions. Does the decision I'm taking this morning support with empathy our people? They're scared, they're compromised, they don't know what the answers are going to be. Am I helping support them?

And.

And of course, closely followed by your customer base. Secondly, you have to focus on that survival phase. Three to six months from now, will we have cash? Will we create enough liquidity to get through just this phase? Of course, millions of smaller businesses won't, but we have to think about this and do the best we can. Third question is, is what we're doing driving? Automation and digitization are. I think we will soon lose the word digital transformation, because there's one way of doing business in the future and that's connected virtually in real time with everyone in your entire ecosystem. And of course coupled with that is the relevance of your people going forward. How do we reskill, retrain and keep them relevant to deliver exciting value to our customers? Is the decision you're taking building strong, enduring, empathetic relationships that are robust and resilient? And finally, does the decision you're taking actually inspire people, give them energy to see through whatever the short term Covid crisis is going to throw at us? You know, in the past we used to look for experts that gave us answers to these sometimes very tough questions. The question is, in the future, there are no experts for the world that lies ahead. So how do we as leaders become creative, adaptive problem explorers? I think now is not the time to look for rapid answers. I'm not sure the answer is that obvious, but let's start asking really, really important questions and let's explore without blinkers a whole new, very exciting but very different future. And it's really interesting when we talk about technology and I'm sure we'll get into that later on in the session. We need to realize that artificial intelligence, machine learning, and all of these wonderful technology tools can. Cannot do what humans are so utterly brilliant at. They cannot explore the unknown. The future of business, in my view, is at this point in time, entirely unknown. It may be that many global corporations that we know today will survive and will be there. And for many, life will continue as it was before the announcement of what happened in Wuhan province. But I think for many, we realize that that future at this point in time is entirely unknown. Let's explore it with amazing human features of curiosity, of empathy, of collaboration, and of human support. Folks, that's it in six and a half minutes. I hope that it's given you some ideas to think about, some questions to recalibrate your thinking about how you can remain relevant in a world that's changing profoundly beneath us every single day. Many thanks.

Hey, Anton, thanks very much. That was great. If you can just give the helm back. Yeah, that's good. All right, everybody else still here. That's good. We have three hundred and fifty people now on the feed. That was really great. Somber words, also encouraging words. Thanks very much, Anton. That was really great. Let's move right on. And we're going to collect the questions here. So keep asking questions. Use the question button, the chat. Okay. I'll look at the chat if I can. But if you ask questions, it's better if you ask real questions in the question box. Okay, let's move to Katie Adelson from the uk. Katie, please take over the screen.

Thank you. I hope you can all see that. Okay, great. Well, I think what we probably need to start by acknowledging is an unpleasant truth, which is that we are probably already heading for a global recession. And in fact, it could even spill into a depression. Governments worldwide are going to come out the other side of this massively indebted. And in order to service that debt, they are going to be depending on growth. Now, if we look back to the Great Depression, the way that we addressed that need for growth was doubling down on consumerism. It was a citizen's duty to consume and consume as much as they possibly could. And I think there's a real danger now that without a serious plan, we're going to end up falling back on that, which of course, from a sustainability perspective is going to be absolutely disastrous. As Anton mentioned, decarbonization strategies are already at risk of creating vast areas of stranded assets. And I'm not sure the government's really had any plan for that pre COVID 19. And I think their capacity to deal with it post COVID 19 is necessarily reduced. Liquidity is going to be a serious concern. We've seen more and more financial institutions undertaking not to invest in unsustainable industries. But I think those decisions are going to come under real pressure in the coming months and years and industries are going to be providing governments with really, really difficult choices that they're going to have to make. So I think we should be making a differentiation here between pure growth and actually progress. And from my perspective, I think this is the moment for a concerted move towards circular business transformations. I think it is a huge, probably multitrillion dollar business opportunity. And multinational organizations worldwide are actually quite advanced in their thinking and their planning around the circular economy. As I say, it's not just a good thing for sustainability, it's actually a really big economic opportunity. The other thing I would pick up is the digital bubble. I think the digital bubble is going to kind of burst a bit. I think that the first casualties are likely to be these digital transformation programs. I don't know if you've noticed that last year the narrative from the McKinsey's and the BCGs went from you all must have a digital transformation program to why aren't your digital transformation programs working? And I think the truth is an awful lot of stuff. CEOs who invested heavily in corporate accelerators and innovation departments, et cetera. And in my experience, a lot of boards have been getting quite nervous that these are not focused enough, these investments. They're struggling to really justify a return and a value. And I think that those investments are likely to contract quite sharply. And actually that brings in an interesting area around innovation and startups and all these other things. We've already seen seed funding in the US to start startups really falling just in the first quarter of this year. I think that's going to accelerate. But also if you look at the entrepreneurs, the consultants, the startups, they've been disproportionately hit so far by Covid. And I think this is something we haven't explored yet because an awful lot of people who in the past may have said, I've got a great idea, I'm going to form a startup in the face of this terrible disruption. And bear in mind that large businesses have been talking about uncertainty and disruption for a long time, but I think this is the first time it's really Filtered down to very small businesses and individuals. And I think we may well see a lot of these people say, you know what? I quite fancy a nice, comfy, secure job, some indoor, you know, work with no heavy lifting and some security for a few years. And I think that speaks again to what Anton was mentioning, the fact that over the next decade, we're going to start looking at different metrics around business, the emergence of what I call the economy. We've already heard about some of this, you know, in the run up to Covid, but I think that's. That's going to become more important. The way that people have dealt with their employees during this crisis, you know, is going to define the relationships they have going forward. It's what I call the move from zero sum game, you know, to hero. Some deck, some game. Another thing I would pick up is bigger data, but not just bigger data, actually a reframing of how we look at data, because Covid has been a masterclass in the importance of data, whether it's been testing and modeling of the disease or logistics. And it's all been focused around protecting people. So I think that's really interesting because most of the time we encounter data because it's trying to sell us something. Tim Cook of Apple a couple of years ago talked about the data industrial complex. Actually, that's not quite correct. It's a marketing industrial complex and it's extremely efficient. And I think what we're increasingly realizing in this pandemic is that the kind of systems and expertise that are being used to sell us something are actually incredibly important, and we should be using them really as part of our societal infrastructure. And as a result, I think that the collaborations that government has been forced to make with public, private and other entities could form the basis of new, what I call collaborative regulatory ecosystems, using things like federation and blockchain, which can redefine the way that societies use and benefit from data. The other thing I would pick up is resilience. We give globalization a big kicking, but actually it's not always globalization that's caused the problem is rationalization. Rationalization aimed at growth. And digital has been a major part of that. Digital has reduced intermediaries, it's created global efficiencies, but it's also reduced resilience. In a lot of cases, it's created concentration of dependence. And with what I believe is the upcoming Internet bifurcation, I think is inevitable. This is really important because it's highlighted. Covid has highlighted systemic issues. We have systemic risk. And I think for businesses, resilience is going to be a really, really important thing going forward. And then finally I would say not singularity, but liminality in my view. I think for too long the future has been very narrowly framed in terms of exponential technological progress. And that has really disempowered a vast majority of people and in fact a lot of businesses. I think Covid should be a reset on that because the 2000 and twenties as a decade, it's not going to be the singularity. Despite what Ray Kurzweil would like us all to believe, that isn't going to happen in 2029. What we're really facing is the beginning of a liminal period. A liminality, an in between space where we've dismantled an awful lot of the old stuff but we haven't actually defined what's going to take its place. It's really important this critical period because the linear consumer economy, it was a great startup, it's not going to scale. And I think it's time for us in the change industry, which all of us to is going futurists are to not just promise technological singularity, but to deliver a real blueprint for progress. You know, the global economy has to pivot like startups do and I hope it pivots to what I call the circular economy. So what does that mean for leaders and organizations? Well, you know, I've taken pivot to identify purpose, interdependence, value and values, openness and trust. And I think for leaders particularly, I would urge you to look strategically at my friend John Hager at Deloitte talking about zoom in, zoom out approaches to strategy. What do I want to be in 10 years? How do I do that in the next six months? And then keep revising. Also vision breadth, emotional intelligence and causative leadership. You know, being a leader beyond control, really inspiring people rather than trying to take control. And on that note, I'm delighted to hand back to ged.

Okay. Wow. I love that. I love the pivot definition. I also love making up new words. Liminality, I love that. Not singularity. Very good. So it's really great. That was pretty amazing. By the way. I forgot to mention in the beginning we are all members of the Futures Agency, which is a virtual outfit that is doing keynote speaking and future advice around the world. But we all have own different places to where we do this. We'll talk more later about how we do this and we have lots of questions queued up. So I am going to go into my own presentation. So this is what I like doing best. Right. Just kidding. Showing you my fancy slides. So here we are. Okay, Let me try and share my screen on this. Okay. All right. Here we are. Okay. So I call this the great transformation. I mean, I've thought about this a lot the last couple of days, but what we call this the Corona crisis, the whatever crisis, the. The Great Depression again, take two. I call this the great transformation. And I think we're going into a world to where most of the things that we've thought about in the past are no longer true. Right. They can be toxic, like Anton said. Very well put. Right. And I just launched a new website today called post coronafuture.com you can read more about this. It's just a part of my blog, but this is kind of the theme. If you look at this graph. This is from Hella McGowan, who I follow on the Internet. Just saw this yesterday and we converted it quickly into something that we want to see. So it's basically, if you're looking at this, you know, you could see that the Corona thing is an accelerant, right? It changed the rate that we're going to change pretty much everything. And many of these things are painful, but they're probably still good. I mean, basically here, looking at this scenario and saying, okay, we're going to see a total shift in consciousness in the way that we think about things. And I think this will redefine us and it will redefine work. You know, I'm focusing on work in my little session here. But first, part number one, it's becoming normal to work from home, right? We will just have to learn how to do that. And that has been in my cards for a long time, but I haven't really gotten good at it. But now we are. The gig economy will explode. We're going to be doing things all over the place and virtual places. We need to have new, entirely new social structures to support the gig economy and to take away the expectation. Lifelong learning, constant studying. That's what we're doing now. We're constantly studying, doing new things. Everything is online. I mean, that takes a different mindset, a shift in consciousness. And cities will change as a result because, you know, we don't have to go anymore and we can still go and meet. That's going to come back, I hope. But really quite simple is that this shift is humongous. And it's going to mean failure to adapt means failure to exist. Right here on the left in the screen, you see what I used to do is speak in front of people, in real places, real people. And now I'm on the right here with my headset, not wearing the Corona mask in this instance. But I think this is an old saying from an economist. Failure to adapt means failure to exist. I do feel very strong about that. I think we have to figure out how we're going to adapt and what can we deliver as value to our clients and customers. I also feel certain about this. Machines are going to become intelligent, parentheses but not like humans. It is the human only stuff that's our future. And there's so many of those things machines don't feel, machines don't have intuition, they can't project the future. AI certainly didn't help us in the process of predicting this mystery that we're in right now. It didn't protect Trump, it didn't help with the Brexit and so on. But machines will start doing the routine work. So our destination is this. We're going to go from doing just a little bit of the routine work to do almost none of the routine work because machines will do it. Very important here. Not everything that looks like a routine is a routine and not every routine should be given to machines. But clearly this is where we're going. If you're looking at this graph from the Economist about five years ago, I think so already quite clear, non cognitive, non routine, cognitive work is exploding. And of course non routine manual work, carpenters, dancers, priests, you know, that sort of thing. And futurists, I hope. Right, Cognitive work. So this is really where human values become invaluable. I use this graph to show this interplay between what I think is what I call the angle, the Android rhythms, the human things and the algorithms. These are things that machines can't do. And I think that's going to be where our future is of work. Especially now. We're going to go in a world where being human is a very, very important thing. More than ever before. The more technology we use, the more we can and must become human and learn the human only skills. And that's going to have great impact on education, training and learning. And all of that, of course, is now being transported in the online environment anyway. And how do you learn how to be emotionally intelligent on the Internet? That's doubtful. Big discussion. What's going to happen there? Work, life, balance. I mean, we're all going to work in so many situations that we could very easily always be working. I always work from home, so sometimes I do 12, 15 hours a day. But it's very hard to find. Figure out how to keep work and life nicely separated so that we can remain human also with our private life. So I think the bottom line of this short presentation here is I think this could be heaven or it could be hell. We could end up in a future to where everything that we had expected is no longer happening, where we have economic distress, the depression of a recession and so on. But we could also have a better future when we think about using our foresight, that can be sort of accelerated for this. And this kind of graph kind of shows provocatively, the key question will be what do we want? Tim Cook was mentioned earlier. He said six months ago in a conference that basically technology can do great things, but it doesn't want to do great things. And the key question is, what do we want? So this, are we talking about extreme capitalism? Are we talking about humanism like we have in Europe? Are we talking about technology, AI, data surveillance? I realize this is sort of just a black or white scenario. And will Europe take the lead? It seems to me like Europe is kind of taking the lead on this global debate now. And I would love to see what Americans are saying this, but I think we may as well see a new renaissance in the US Right now it looks very dark, right? It looks like the epicenter of bad is going to happen in America. But is there a new renaissance? That depends on so many factors. And we can debate quite some time, I think. You know, looking at this animation, right, clearly, you know, the carbon tax that's coming right after this discussion about how we're going to get out of this crisis is really quite clear. We're going to go into a future where carbon tax is an everyday thing. But some people are predicting 100 million new jobs in this dramatic shift to sustainable ecosystems. That's where the new jobs will come from. We have to fund them. We will also see similar boost of jobs in the biosciences and healthcare and public media and services. And we have to decide what the funding is. Just like right now, we have to decide what do we fund to change. So I want to end on this slide that shows this is our future. As Anton and also Katie was saying, we have to collaborate, we have to adapt, we have to reinvent, we have to question our assumptions. Because I really think that the future is better than we think. I know that's a really kind of a strange thing to say right now because it looks all like really, really difficult, right? But I think we're at a point where we can say okay, is the light at the end of the tunnel. Read my post on this on the postcarunafuture.com you can now see the post I posted on this yesterday. So, sticking with our paradigm of not overdoing the presentations, I am going back right and going into the last round here. Thanks for enduring me on this. And now, Lise Lotte Ling. So from Copenhagen, please take over.

I will take over the stage. Welcome to this session. And I'm speaking from two weeks lockdown in Denmark where all the schools have been closed. And I think I need to speak from a people's perspective now. We heard the business, the government perspective, but how much is the Corona crisis actually changing us as people? And I think when we look back, this is going to be one of the biggest revolutions in time. I'll talk about two trends and one taboo. And before I start, I'll say, as a futurist, I never say whether the future is bright or black. I say, interesting, exciting. So if you keep that mindset while listening to my presentation, you have managed to become a futurist yourself. So please, no value judgment, just lean back. As Geert was talking about the exponential development, I think that's really interesting. As a futurist, I spent so much time explaining people that things were developing at an exponential rate. Now with the corona, we all understand exponential, and I actually think that can be really useful when we want to explain climate change later on that even though it seems really far away, is it going to hit me? Suddenly we understand when somebody is saying, well, it's actually melting exponentially. We understand likewise with the speed of change in terms of new technologies. Also, we are changing right now from this fake news time where we use the social media to get news and information. Somehow Corona is just too serious. We want to listen to real scientists talking about, how does this look? So here we have a transition moving, I think, from fake news to scientists. Well, let me get to my two trends and my taboo. The first trend I want to talk to about at home is the way we move from hospitals to health centers. None of us want to go to hospital right now unless we are almost dying. So we really, really make certain that we don't have to go by measuring ourselves, taking our temperatures, using all kinds of apps. At the moment, we are really into sharing this data in order to stay healthy. And that is definitely going to continue. We might well have a chip under our skin. We might well tell our relatives, you know, I'm absolutely fine, grandmother, you can see me now. Or our boss will know about our health data not in order to diagnose, but in order to also prevent us from falling ill. And I think we might be worried. I saw in some of the Q and A that the government is taking over this data. I think it's more interesting to look at how we will give this data to private businesses ourselves because we have a short term interest in sharing this because we want to stay healthy for much longer. So here I really see a huge trend in everybody building their own home hospitals in the years to come. And that goes for the rational stuff on medication, but it also goes for all the irrational stuff of buying herbal medication, maybe sleeping in a pyramid. So that is going to be really, really interesting to see how that is going to transform our homes. Especially also with an aging population everywhere. And the corona is not going to go away anywhere soon. So how do you prepare for the fall coming up? I think survival kits, you know, even power generators so we don't lose our wi fi and maybe local produce as well. So lots and lots of stuff happening in that health area. The other one Gerd talked a little bit about is the other huge revolution right now that we can explore through the eyes of our children. Or if you know any teachers, they are going to a massive revolution right now because we have been talking about going online with a learning system for a long time. I think already in the 50s they found out that the forgetting curve is huge. After 14 days you have forgotten 95% of a one hour lecture. So it's much more interesting to make micro learning, adaptive learning, individualized learning. Adaptive learning means that it knows exactly how much I know and when I'm starting to forget. And then when moving me to the next level. The people who are working with this saying in 10 years time we don't need exams at all. We can reduce, for instance, medical studies with one year and people have much higher grade because it's adapting to your way of learning. My own son, he's learning from school, he's doing his A levels and he was really fed up with all these kids on the first row putting their hands up. They were always being asked. And he's quite happy now because the teacher is like, so can anybody answer? And you can write down in your own speed in the commentary field. So finally now he's getting some fame for getting the answer right. So I think when we go back we will have this global knowledge of what actually makes sense and what doesn't make sense. And it's not going to go back because now the teachers have had their hands dirty, and it will transform them forever. So we are done discussing should we have screen time with our kids, should the kids bring screens to school or not? We are starting to have a much more sophisticated discussion on what should actually go on, why we use them. And also, hopefully, this can free up a lot of time to become more social. Which leads me to the big taboo of our time, which I call the feedback crisis. And that's a bit of a paradox. We're talking about digitalization. We measure everything. We rate everything. I think Bridgewater, they rate each other every time they have a talk. And they even have an algorithm suggesting what teams you should put together so you don't pick the usual group of people. All that is well and fine. For a long time, we have actually stopped speaking to each other. If you walk down any big city, everybody have their stuff in their ears. They are somewhere else. We don't call each other anymore. We send each other text messages. We have a little bit of Q and A at the end, and very soon we'll have these chatbots, and they will be very good at predicting what we want to do next, and they will enhance our patterns. Just like if you listen to Spotify, you get more of the same music. They will all the time put us into the same bubble. But as Gad was talking about, and Kate as well, what do we lead? Well, we all talked about this. It's about posing the nice questions. The stuff we don't know, we don't know, we can't live without. And that's not something you can do on your own. You can get irritated, you can get scared, but you need an interpersonal relationship in order to address the real taboos, which very often is about training a new competence, with which very often is about doing something you're really, really bad at. I want to say that before this conference, I wasn't very good at Zoom. So Gad has actually been spending one hour with me, and it felt awful. I felt so stupid. And we have to get used to feeling really, really, really stupid all the time. And the only one who likes change is a wet baby. So it is going to be a big challenge. But promise me, say, interesting, exciting, put your hands out so your mind will believe in it, and then I promise you everything will be okay. Thank you.

Wow. That was amazing. Thank you. I could talk to you guys forever. So let me put you back in the gallery view here so we can see everyone. Yeah. Becoming comfortable with being uncomfortable. Right? That's been said many Times before and I am not a stranger to that. I've been very uncomfortable actually doing stuff online because I. I don't feel the energy of people here. I used to be a musician. I need to see who's out there grooving and anyway, so we have lots and lots of questions. This is really great to have you here. We're going to try to get through all of this. We don't really have a hard stop, but we're basically looking at roughly half an hour or so for the questions. The conversation will continue afterwards with email and so on. Stick around, please, to the end, all of the 5,000 people out there because we're going to have a poll, right, several polls about important issues. So please do stick around to the end. Let's go into the questions. Soha, master of ceremony, where do we start?

So I think Lisa touched a bit.

Upon this question, but I would like.

To get the feedback from the other speakers.

So as we concede increasing power to governments for our safety, how do we.

Ensure we get it back? Yeah, yeah, I take a quick step and then. And maybe Anton. Yeah. You already started breathing, so go ahead, Anton, please.

I glow green when I breathe. I think it's a very interesting question and very topical because I've just discovered in our country, which is going on total lockdown in the next few hours, that the mobile phone operators have agreed with the government to give access to all our mobile movement data. And the purpose of that, of course, is to track who are we seeing, who's known to be a Covid carrier, et cetera. So on the one hand, absolutely beneficial to society, on the other, really, really, really scary. Also interesting that earlier today Apple released a new upgrade to the operating system on their mobile devices. And it's a major shift towards giving control of cookies and all of these things that follow you around to the end to the actual user. I think in the future that society will claim its privacy back from governments. I mean, certainly in Western democr democratic constructs where we can exercise a voice and we can start a movement, I think society will become much more involved in determining who controls the end data. So, yeah.

I'm also very sorry, I'm sorry to break in. It's the microphone just switching on and off here. But I'm also very concerned about this. You know, this Corona thing may end up being the biggest excuse for surveillance that we've ever seen. And this is happening in every country except for maybe here in Switzerland or maybe in Denmark, I suppose, right?

No, no, it's Happening in Denmark, too. We're using the phones to track different areas. I think we haven't seen enough yet. Very soon we will have mind reading. So if you think about something yet, I will have it in my own computer.

I never think about much, so I'm safe there. I don't think very much. But, but, but, you know, this is. I think it's a huge concern. Maybe Katie can also comment on this.

But, yeah, I've got.

I think it's really big.

A slightly different view on this, because when you look at my. My kids, millennial Gen Zs, they already share a massive amount of data with Google and Facebook and Amazon because they have been brought up to learn that if you share something, you get something back. And I think the question we should be asking is, why are we all so concerned about sharing data with a democratically elected government when we actually share data with a corporation over which we have zero control? So I think.

Okay, Dean, you're bringing the key question in here, right? Who do we trust? Right. Do we trust the government?

Exactly.

Can we keep on trusting our government? Right, right. I mean, look what happened in Turkey, right, Where it's like, yeah, big deal.

But it's also a control issue because, you know, we've. And I think that the COVID stuff plays into this because, okay, we're at an early stage globally with this pandemic. But what we appear to have seen is that some of these more authoritarian approaches have actually been successful at, certainly at stopping the first wave of the virus. And I think that's a very important thing, you know, that we've all seen globally. And it's very important that we don't conflate that, you know, with just handing over control, you know, to an autocratic, you know, government or whatever. But I do think we have to look at the generations that are coming up. As I say, these digital native generations have been trained to actually give data in exchange for something. And if we can develop societal platforms that allow us to use this data where it's transparent, and this is where the radical transparency comes in, then I think that could be a hugely beneficial thing going forward. Not at all taking away from the fact that we need to be, you know, always mindful. But I do think there are opportunities.

It's interesting when you look at what China is doing with its social scoring, and if you don't have a social score above a certain level, you can't buy a train ticket, etc. I mean, philosophically, I think the notion of gamifying Citizenship could have massive benefits. So if you help an old lady cross the road safely, you get 50 points. If you pay your tax on time, you get a thousand points and every 10,000 you get a 3% reduction in tax. The problem, of course, with the Chinese system is it's not transparent and no one knows the rules of the game.

Exactly. And I think.

And of course there's no right to appeal.

Yeah, you've got to. And that's why I'm saying in a democratic society, you know, really, if you look at us sharing data with Facebook, now that is akin, you know, in my mind to actually sharing it with an autocratic government because it's completely non transparent what that's being used for. And that's what changes. If you look at somewhere like, I mean, I have people saying, I do a lot of work in Asia and I love traveling there. And there are people who, you know, don't like Duterte, for example, and his policies, you know, when he came in, in the Philippines and I had a couple of Filipino friends say to me, yeah, but you know, you don't live somewhere which is, you know, absolutely torn apart by violence. So it's very easy, you know, as a, you know, well educated, you know, western democratic, products of, you know, that kind of society to say that's a terrible thing. But actually for people in countries on the ground where these things are, are really personal, immediate to them, they may have a slightly different view. And I think we've got to be really attuned to that.

I say, yeah, but you know.

The thing that I, that we have, we have stopped traveling as you know, for a long time now, and we probably will stop traveling. But I think also what Kate is saying, we are actually having a fantastic chance to become global citizens in that every time I turn on the news I hear, how do they do in South Korea, how do they do in China, how do they do in Cape Town? I travel around the world every evening and I think when we come out of this Corona crisis, we have all been to the same war and we have all been standing on the same side. And I think there will be a civil movement who is very interested in using the best experiences to get something better out of people. Not more, but actually something better out of both the people and the planet. And it's a very powerful group that has started communicating with each other.

Well, let's wrap up this topic. Here go the next question. I just want to add one thing. I think the key question really is the trust question, right Do I trust the government? Do I trust people that act on our behalf? And can I trust them going forward? Noel Yuval Harari just published a piece on the FT about what's happening in Israel. You know, going to a surveillance country because of this. Right. And probably not going back. This is the key question, right? So let's table this conversation. It's very good, but obviously a passionate topic. Soha, take the next question, please.

So I'm combining some questions together. So there's a question about the skills that leaders of the new world need and how can we train ourselves to ask more urgent questions. And then specifically for Katie, a lot of votes for the question about causative. If you can deep dive into causative leadership. Do you want me to pick that up first.

Please?

When I talk about causative leadership, it comes from, it comes from the root of the word leader, actually, which is, a lot of these things come from Latin. That doesn't actually, I think it's sort of Germanic. But it's a very old form of verb which is called a causative verb. And it actually means to lead, means to cause someone to follow you. So I think that's a really critical thing that's got lost in all the, you know, management leadership handbooks. I mentioned eq and these two things are very closely linked. I think it was Eisenhower who said, you know, the art of leadership is getting something, someone to do something, you know, that they don't realize you want them to do. It is leadership beyond control. Because the critical reason for the failures of so much digital transformation programs is because they fail to actually look at the most important thing, which is culture. And culture really is very closely related to leadership. So I think you need far more autonomous workplaces and that takes a very different kind of leadership style to enable those, because it means that instead of hierarchy, you have to be ready to be part of agile organizations, self organizing teams, actually organizing to solve problems. And that really is giving people the autonomy to go and do that. So when I say causative leadership, that's what I'm talking about. I'm talking about creating an environment with people. And that is a cultural thing that causes them to actually almost, you know, lead themselves. And I think, you know, it's, it's not completely unrelated to traditional attitudes to leadership, but I think when you actually delve down into the word itself and you find it is, you know, it is a causative thing in itself, I think that encapsulates it quite well. So that's really what I mean by that.

There's an amazing story by the late Professor Sumantra Ghoshal, who talks about the context that leaders create within their organizations. And he said organizations have a smell. They either smell like he came from Calcutta, so he used that as the example. And he said, imagine Calcutta in summer at 36 degrees Celsius and 110% humidity. No matter how much you want to go and run, you just cannot. It makes you lazy. Whereas if you go for a walk in the forest of Fontainebleau on a Sunday morning, you're exhausted from a tough week and all you want to do is go for a gentle stroll. He says the contact in the forest means you can't stroll. You have to run, skip, hop and jump. And organizations either smell like Calcutta or Fontainebleau, I guess. And it's the context that leaders create through the leadership role models they set, their actual behaviors, their empathy, their clarity of purpose, and getting people to rally around that. And all of these create the kind of organizations where people just want to stand up in the morning and do more than is expected because they love what they're doing and what they're trying to do actually has a relevant meaning in life which they can align with.

Absolutely, totally, totally agree with that. Yeah.

Yes, on my point. Yeah.

Very much. From headhunting to team hunting, I think one of the big flaws is that we do not get enough feedback, especially as managers. I know now they're getting really clever apps to help them, and purpose can only take you so far. But the world is getting extremely complex. And there it's so important to also being able to relate and employ other people than yourself. And that takes a very specific emotional muscle to handle. And I think that can be dealt with by employing, for instance, leaders in groups of two. Otherwise, we are very likely to see the same thing as usual.

Yeah. I was going to say, I think we're seeing a shift from this idea of iq knowing stuff, having knowledge, knowing logic and all these things to eq. That's been discussed for a long time. And that's also going to change in our universities in the future. Machines will have iq. They can look up stuff very quickly. But to have eq, it's quite difficult for a machine to have foresight, intuition, emotions, understanding, storytelling. Yeah. So I think this is where our intelligence is vastly superior and will last for quite some time, maybe 50 years or so, until machines can possibly fake that. Right. But we have to shift our skills over to this area. We have to teach our kids how to Be humans, to be a mensch.

You know, Gerd, I would say that we're seeing a decoupling, actually. We're seeing a decoupling of intelligence from consciousness. And I think we talk a lot about smart organizations, actually. Intelligence we can do now, we can do that. You don't have to be human to be intelligent, but actually to be conscious and to be conscientious. That still requires humanity. And that's why I think, you know, smart organizations. No. Conscious organizations, yes.

I think one thing that is going to make us more conscious, Kate, is that we will have a blockchain. And this coronavirus is actually helping us to have local teams sitting all over the place and then you can have your intelligence delivered. So the whole need for hierarchy and leaders, as we used to know, is also in a sense going to evaporate.

Yeah, it's funny. I think one of the questions in here is about digital transformation. We're going to get to that in a second. I really think I, you know, calling this whole area now the great transformation, I think this other transformation is that we will not no longer believe that just using technology is going to make everything different. Right? It doesn't. It's a tool. You can have a hammer and I can go on the street and kill somebody with a hammer or I can build a house, right? It's not the fault of the hammer. And this is what AI does, for example, right? I can kill people with AI, I can build a house with AI. These are just tools. But we have to transform, to look into this in a whole different way than we have in the last 10 years, which is, you know, how to create, make more money, create more profit, have more growth. Right. This is over this idea of this obsession with growth. You know, that's where it's a dead end street. Right? Yeah. Good.

I want you to just answer the second part of that question, which was about how do we ask better questions. And it's really interesting when you look at some of the work that Elon Musk has done across must be seven different industries now. And he's achieved, whether you like him or not, and whether you agree with what he does. Smoke on television or not is not the point. He distills a set of very complex issues down to their very, very simple fundamental principles. And at that point he gets the aha breakthrough that then changes the game forever. So when he shoots rockets up at, you know, 10% of the NASA cost of a rocket, it's because he's really deeply understood what is that One thing that drives the entire business model around, sending rockets into space. And he's done that across multiple industries. He strips away the noise that we call business, but it's actually just busyness. And he gets down to the simple principles that drive the customer need, the customer experience, and then he solves for that. Strip away the complexity, strip away the nonsense. At the end of the day, business is about someone with a need, someone with an ability to supply that need. They meet, they agree a price. That is the moment of business. It's that simple. We've built this massive set of processes and standard operating procedures that just make it way too complex. And we think that's what leadership is about, is managing all that nonsense. Well, it's not.

And of course, this may be one of the things that puts America back into the spotlight, right? What I call the new renaissance. It's this idea of saying, well, you know, this is what the culture is in America, right? Is to strip the stuff, get down the bus and reinvent. Very hard for us to do in Europe, because we're always thinking about all kinds of other things. And I think this is the challenge, this is the hope I see for America. I lived there 17 years. This utter reinvention. Because now is the time to do so. This pioneering spirit. Let's have hope. Go to the next question, please. Soha.

Okay, there are lots of questions about digital transformation. And okay, there's one specific for you, how digital transformation programs are not working. I think Katie answered that.

What do you consider being the root.

Cause for this lack of successful transformation?

But this was for good. Would you like to give a comment on that? Well, just real quick, I think, you know, I think Peter Drucker said once, maybe somebody was riffing off Peter Drucker, a culture eats technology for breakfast. I think he actually said culture eats strategy for breakfast. Right. But I would say culture. Culture eats technology for breakfast. This is the number one reason why companies aren't transforming, because the culture doesn't support it. They get a fancy software, they get a fancy futurist or whoever to come and speak about this. But there's no culture of transformation. People aren't helping each other, transforming. They're not allowed to ask questions. I can't tell you how many projects I've done with clients where we go in and we talk about transforming into the future, understanding the future. But it turns out that the very basic level of communication and how you actually work together to create new things is already forbidden in the company. It's like, reminds me Seven years ago, I did a session for a big media company that says, how do we use social media to sell our content? Turns out I went there and I talked to people. Turns out social media was forbidden. It was locked out on their entire system. Nobody could actually get to it. And this is the kind of question that I get this a lot. Like, you know, people think of transformation as being technology, but it's not, right? It's in our minds. It's a future ready mindset, as I call it. Good.

I think another reason is that often digital transformation is about paving the cow path. In other words, let's take an existing set of procedures and digitize them or automate them. And again, we don't stop and reflect and ask the question, what are we actually trying to achieve? What actually needs to be done and what's the end destination? And then we start from that point.

Yeah, the question I said earlier, what do we want to be? Right? What do we want our future to be? What is our preferred future? Because I think, you know, it's really funny to see. I think in 20 years we can probably be anything, right? We can extend our life forever. We can go to other planets, right? This is all, what do we want? Do we want to be human? Do we want to be superhuman? Do we want to be God? I mean, I think it's all going to be possible, right? We can change our bodies, we can do all these things. The question is, what do we want? And I think we have to get on the same page. And now, in this great transformation, the Corona crisis, this is the key question, right? What do we want when we reboot and how we're going to get there? And how is government going to help us get there if they do help us? And this is the existential question that we have to ask now. What do we actually want from this?

The real problem is, of course, we've always said the future should be a matter of choice and not chance. But the problem is to make the big post COVID 19 choices is you need strong leadership. And where in the world is a huge leader emerging to guide the world across maybe the biggest question of the century, maybe forever even, and that's what gives me sleepless nights, is that where are those global either political or business leaders that are brave and strong and robust and able to have this huge conversation with conviction, passion and empathy?

You know, I'd like to pick that up because I think that's an incredibly important point. We're talking about the need for ecosystems and collaboration and yet we still have this need for a leader. And I think what's fascinating is that ideologically, so many of the leaders that we have are really bound up in things that they can't really break out of. You know, if you talk about a policy, if it has shades of socialism or it has, you know, shades of something else, people can't adopt it. And what I see is an emerging role for conveners, really. And I was quite interested at Davos this year to see the British Prince of Wales, Prince Charles, who for decades has been a huge environmental campaigner, you know, and is actually a completely neutral guy, if you can be neutral as the British royal family. But you know what I mean, he doesn't come from a political party, etc. And he's standing there talking about things like circular economy and all these things. I'm thinking this is really interesting because we've said for years, what kind of role do people like, royal families, what kind of role do they have? But what they do have is incredible influence, and they can play convening roles. And I think actually it's going to be interesting to see where conveners appear. And I also think business has a bigger part to play than we think, because it always used to be that if you want to change the world, you went into politics. Actually, people who want to change the world now are going into business and technology businesses and the kind of ethical standards we are holding businesses to, we're not holding politicians to anymore. So think if we look at ecosystems, collaboration, conveners, maybe we don't need big political leaders. Maybe we just need a consensus globally with some of those conveners that can start moving us to the right place and bring politicians in.

I think we are seeing this big change in politics as well. When we grew up, you know, it was waiting for Bruce Willi or Arnold Schwarzenegger. We sat there passively watching our TV screen, waiting for the hero to turn up and save the day. And that's just not what it looks like anymore. We had a generation of gamers who used to collaborate, who are used to contribute. As you said, Kate, we have influencers. So I think the power is going to emerge in many places. I just looked at the Q and A and I understand that a lot of you are also sitting in some really unconvenient and unfortunate places around the world. And I understand you will be worried for a civil war. And I think it's important also to look at the taboos right now. Everybody's on a high. We want to solve this, we have the humanity, and I'm really proud to say that the world seemed to at large to move in the same direction. But I think looking a few weeks in, we could definitely see some big clashes emerging, especially once the economic hits the fan. Then hopefully we have other values than just money, and hopefully we'll have the caring part. Even though we have now been in a long period of time where we haven't been able to talk to each other, we haven't been able to hug each other, and body language says a lot. So when you walk down the street and you have two meters of different distance, people don't talk to each other anymore either. So we are in a very special situation. So I think it's. I love the fact that GERD is actually making some future scenarios because I think this is really where scenarios come into place.

Yeah. You know, I think the. Yeah. Right now it tends to look a little bit dark sometimes. Like, you know, if you're looking at the US for example, right now, which. Which is very likely to be the absolute global epicenter of this crisis for several reasons, then I think this is a time for us to talk, to collaborate, to work together to prevent the worst cases, to help each other to figure out what the next step is, to assist your neighbors, to. To make sure that we build a new way of communicating. Right. This is the transformation that, that I think we all have in common. And this is not going to be easy. I think all of us, you know, I myself, I face a year without revenue. Right. Basically. And that's. Yeah, yeah. So we are. Please send me somebody. I'm just kidding. Join the club.

Why should you?

So now we really have to think about this, you know, which way it's going. And I think if we do we have a raised hand or something like that, we can probably get somebody from the audience to come in. Let's take one question. In the meantime, if you want to actually speak, use your audio, use your video. Oh, we have a hand. But you better be. You better be speaking well and not calling us from the bus somewhere. So let's get this person that has raised the hand who has raised the hand. So how can you get that person into the end? Somebody just raised their hand. Yeah, well, don't be shy. Let's take the next question while you get ready to raise your hand. There's a tool on Zoom. I think it's in the upper right corner where you can raise the hand. Okay. And that. Okay, here we got somebody raising the hand. But they go very, very quickly. Can you see the raised hand?

I cannot see them, but I can ask one question.

Oh, yeah. Okay, now I got it. Here, I got it. Ricardo. Ricardo. Now he's gone. They go very quickly to raise hands. Ricardo, raise your hand again, please. This is the software trying for us to be. Ricardo. Here we go. Ricardo, allowed to talk. You're in. Ricardo, are you there? Yeah. Ricardo, are you there? You're live. I will unmute you. Are you there? Okay, Ricardo, you can go live and then you can talk. In the meantime, we'll take a question, but I think there's a falcon permitted.

Okay, now it's go. Okay.

Yes, you're there. Okay, great.

Well, my wish is that pandemic will help us to become humans, more humans.

Like we are talking about.

Well, my question is the virus shows us that is vital to make a.

Stronger connection between technology and humanity.

That's one of your main subjects.

Okay. Mainly, GERD speaks a lot about it, but it seems that no governments or companies or people are prepared and focused on this need.

Mainly because this challenge asks a word.

Dialogue without borders or unilateral interests.

Well, you, GERD and Harari, for example, are optimistic about the future. And I ask you if there is a pet to join all these protagonists in the same meeting to face this big problem.

That's the question. That's a very good question, Ricardo. I think, from my point of view, is that we are now being forced into a reset. And that reset is something that we actually looked at for quite some time, but couldn't figure out how to do it because we had so many things to lose, right? And now all of a sudden, we're saying, okay, the economy is going to hell, so we may as well think about sustainable capitalism. We may as well. Like, you know, when things really hit the shit hits the fan, then we're thinking about, okay, can we drop this and think about something new? And this is kind of the moment right now where we're saying, okay, maybe this is something we can figure out, how to implement climate change measures now. Because now we have already this kind of reset in place, right? So it's basically, I think we're getting closer than ever to this kind of concept. Then without this reset, we would have obviously talked about, you know, how will we get ready and can we risk it and so on. But now the cards on the table, right, they're being remixed. So, yeah, this is why I have hope for this. You know, call me an optimist, I probably am, but thanks, Ricardo. Let's let's move on to a question. Okay, thank you. Thank you. Go ahead. Thank you for calling in.

Okay, so there have been many questions.

About the future of the travel industry.

Post Corona, and I will combine that hospitality and I know that's a topic of your concern, Gerd, so.

You guys take it first.

So I remember doing a strategy for an international airline, gosh, it must have been 12 years ago. And asked the question, you know, what business are you actually in? How are we about passengers and flying and airports? And I said, actually not. The only business you're in is taking me to meet with some colleagues to discuss a business issue. And I said, if that's your business, why aren't you building the kind of zoom businesses back 10 years, 10 or 12 years ago? And they thought I'd lost my marbles. They just didn't understand it. So, you know, will travel as the way we know it return? I think it's not going to return anywhere near the same level of volume or scale as before. I think there will be new businesses that connect business people, that connect families, maybe in virtual ways that are today. I'm in zoom. This is version one. Imagine version 13.3, five years from now, with 5G connectivity, real time data flows, zero latency, and all of those wonderful things, I think is going to be an absolute explosion of new ways of giving people experience of a place or a meeting that doesn't require us to, you know, launch 300 people in the lead pencil in the sky for 13 hours.

Okay, I think, I think travel is definitely coming back, I think, because if you, if you call somebody your happiness curve, go like this. And I'm quite sure watching this, you don't get the same emotional reactions as watching any of us on stage or amongst a real live audience. Likewise, if you hug your child, you know, their happiness goes all the way to the ceiling. If you write a text message full of funny videos, it's a flatliner. So travel in the future is about five dimensional. It's about the food is getting more important to us. What is actually inside will be much more conscientious. We're not just going for a weekend. We go deeper into the travel experience. We might use two months preparing to go understanding the culture, understanding what layers we want to reveal. We want to not just go for inspiration, we want to go for transformation. We wanted to do something to ourselves so that could be learning a new skill and really getting under the skin of people. And I think that curiosity has really been arising during this corona and of course, the travel industry has to be a part of the solution, not a part of the problem. That means they have to be beneficial to the local economy. They have to think in circular terms and they have to tap into the movement that we are all becoming digital nomads. I think we're having this huge leisure competition going on now where we combine business and leisure for the whole world. We can work from everywhere. So you better get set on making sure that you have some good values where you are, you have some good work ethics, people are well, that you have nice culinary experiences, and that people are working well together. A final thing for the travel industry I think is really important. So if I go to London, I don't want Kate to show me around because she lives there, she has her blinders on. I want to be shown around London by a Danish person, because a Danish person can translate all the crazy things they do in London that we don't do in Denmark. So I think people should use the foreigners much more as guides and as translators for other cultures. Thanks.

Well, I guess. I guess I'll just go screw myself then. You know, when you come to London next, you're on your own, frankly.

Listen, I actually.

I think I'd just like to be a bit more prosaic about this and say when we talk about travel, very often we're really talking about air travel because air travel was a thing that really, really revolutionized things. And I think actually, you know, Covid's going to be a total watershed here because, you know, around the world they're going to have to be very big decisions made by governments about the extent to which they're going to bail out these airlines. And of course, it's not just about passengers. Bear in mind the only BA flight running to Madrid once a day is a big triple seven. And that's not carrying people. They do that because of cargo. And this is where it gets really important because globalization 4.0 is becoming more regional, less global, and that's going to impact their cargo as much as it's going to impact other kind of supply chains, whether it's shipping or tracking or whatever. So I think what you've got here is a couple of really big structural changes. Are we going to see a drop in air cargo? Potentially, we are certainly. I think for passengers, travel is likely to get a lot more expensive because there's no way that all of these airlines are going to make it through. And, you know, the usual result of that is that prices go up. So are people still going to want to travel. Yes, But I think when we talk about travel, we've really got to look at the airline industry and it's going to be down to the appetite of governments globally in terms of the extent to which these airlines are saved, actually. And that's really the important part now. And of course, the knock on effects of carriers not running into certain regional airports, etc. Could have a devastating effect on a lot of smaller tourism businesses. So again, it's an ecosystem thing here. But the implications of these governments that are already overstretched actually deciding who to bail out will define how we travel in the future.

Katie, let's take it one step further to landlords of buildings, right? Six months from now, CEOs and FDs are going to realize that their companies are pretty able to deliver most of what they were doing before with everyone working under their own sort of operating costs at home, in their own home offices. Imagine if organizations stop renewing leases across the buildings around the world, how that transforms an industry. If you look at the experiment of IBM in Japan where they told people to work only four days a week and have a three day weekend every single week, productivity went up 40%. So I think there's whole new ways of delivering the value propositions, the customer experiences that we will discover as technology also underpins some of that growth. I don't disagree with leisure travel for learning and exploration and fulfillment, but I think the business consequences of travel and real estate and running large companies in structures of the old world are going to change fundamentally for sure.

Yeah. I mean, let's be frank about this. You know, the last 10 years we are of course the worst example of this, right? I did, I went on 300 flights last year in 2019, I have stopped counting and I keep talking about why we should do things remotely. It didn't work, right? I mean, basically I think this is not, this wasn't sustainable and it will not be sustainable. And we're going to keep meeting face to face because we're human. And this is just like you can date an app or an avatar on the Internet or you can have a real date or you can use Tinder or whatever, but it's not the same thing. And so I think this is really important to realize. We're going to keep going. We probably will take a lot less airplanes like in Europe. We're going to take the train because the train is not boosted by all this, the whole debate. And it's quite clear airlines are in deep, deep, deep trouble because they were in trouble before. Just didn't realize, you know, how much we had pushed this kind of crazy flying, you know, going to Beijing for a day or people from Manchester going to Malaga for an evening because it was $2 on Ryanair, you know, to go. So. So I basically, what's happening here is really quite clear. We're going to travel a lot less with the airplane. And this is only now part of it, because of course now they will go defunct. But in the future we're going to see carbon tax, mandatory carbon tax for every flight you take. The average value of a ticket when you fly is $300. If we pay 10% of that as mandatory carbon tax, we could do a lot of stuff with that money. And that's coming. So, I mean, I'll be the worst one to suffer from this. And then we're looking at stuff like cruise ships. They're toast, they're not coming back.

What about epidemics? Epidemics could also be a driving force for stopping us to travel because we basically, we are afraid of getting. Finally, we have cleaned up our country, so we don't want people to travel across borders. But we do have driverless cars, we do have Elon Musk working on hyperloops. We do have a lot of people who want to create smart cities that are working on circular basis and with sustainable energy. So I think it's in human nature to be in the flow, in the movement. I don't think it's in the human nature to stifle at home.

No, I totally. I think there's lots of new technology that's going to make this possible. The interesting thing is now, now that we're doing this, you know, we're saying, okay, that wasn't so bad. It wasn't like being with Anton in the same room having a beer or something. But, you know, we got to do something different. And it's also very good and we're going to adapt and say, you know what? Why do I have to go now? Once we can fly again, you know, in 50 years. I'm just kidding. Let's say next year, once we can fly again, we're going to say, you know what, that was quite good. Let's just do that, right? I mean, we're going to change paradigm and this will be very difficult, especially for airlines and airports. I look at airports and I say, okay, what if I can go to the Zurich airport, I can go into a holographic room, I pay $100 to Swiss Air and I'm going to show up In Cape Town in real time. I still can't drink beer and smoke a cigar. Okay, that's kind of a problem. But I'm still going to be there and that's coming. I tell you, in a few years, every airport will hold a graphic transportation room where.

Laziness has always been the main driving force. And it's just easy. So that's why we're not phoning each other anymore either. We just send text messages. So we need to do a conscious travel. We need to be conscious about meeting each other in the right way. So that is bringing right results. So of course that will limit. But maybe we will also meet each other for other circumstances than we have done in the past.

On that note that you do, what we've been doing with some of our friends for the last few days is schedule a Zoom drink session with your friends. I mean, it's kind of crazy.

Have you noticed that drink is featuring quite heavily cushions?

Well, that's what, that's how we come.

Up with our scenarios.

We have another raised hand. Let's take Marcella. Marcella Bos. Boss. Oh, there you are. Okay. Wow, this is working really well so far at the control. So please, Marcella, fire away.

Yeah.

Good evening and good morning for some of us. Marcella from the Netherlands, speaking. Thank you panelists, for your valued. A sort of inspiration for me all the time. And I want to ask you this question to all four of you, and I expect maybe four different question of answers. That is what you see when we are moving as a world towards this maybe new sustainable world where we in consciousness live in a high level of cooperating with each other. What do you see personally as the biggest risk to get there? Yeah, yeah, great answer. I think the principle of capitalism is the biggest risk. We've gotten so used to saying the purpose of what we do is to get ahead, to grow profit, to get richer. And this has been the paradigm all over the world pretty much. And now we're saying, you know what the biggest paradigm is to be more human, to, to exist, to enjoy our lives, to collaborate, to see other humans. And that's really becoming a big deal. Now we have to go to what Al Gore called sustainable capitalism because it wasn't sustainable until now. And now we're realizing that it has crashed. And now we're thinking, okay, how do we get to sustainable capitalism? And there the biggest hurdle for us is to jump on the same page and say, let's have a different stock market. Let's have a stock market that values companies by people, Planet Purpose and prosperity. And that's how you get judged, that's how your bonus is paid. Have you created purpose? Have you created prosperity? Have you created Planet Benefit? Have you done the quadruple bottom line? That's how you get paid as a CEO. In the future, when we switch to that and we go away from the stock market being generating more profits for Aramco, then I think we can get to a future. So rethinking what the stock market is, the stock market is and how we can rewrite capitalism, that to me is the biggest challenge.

For me it's a lack of vision. We always double scared of what we're going to lose compared to what we're going to get. And a lot of the stuff that we are talking about we can't really see right now. We've been so used for all solutions to come from technology. Well, actually here I think we need artists. Artists wrote stories about the welfare state before the welfare state existed in the Scandinavian countries. They inspired politicians that we could have some kind of minimum income, that we could take care of each other, that it would be a good investment for you to have neighbors who are not starving, who are feeling secure, that you could have women in the workplace without it being a problem to anybody. And I think the artist had a huge role there. And for some reason these days artists are some crazy guys sitting in the corner and they're not looked at. But we actually need some artists out there who are painting out a future. Otherwise we are scared of what we don't know and we will jump back. Thanks.

Great point. Yes. Let me add one thing on the politics, Gerd.

I think for me one of the biggest risks is that we stick with this word sustainability. And somewhat cynically perhaps, I think we should ban the word and we should rethink a brand new word. Because in my mind, I mean folks, for those of us that are married, the concept of a sustainable marriage to me is frightening. It means that you kind of bumble along on average, you kind of survive to fight another day. That's not what the future of humankind should be about. Organizations embrace this word sustainability. They buy schoolbooks and support feeding schemes, but they pump toxic waste into the rivers the next week. I think the new word is something like a word which I use as flourishing. How do we build a flourishing future where we can look forward to things being better in multi dimensions? And I love Gerd's way of thinking about the replacement of the stock market. But how do we think about everyone? Coexisting on planet Earth in a way in which planet Earth improves and gets better, humans are more fulfilled, more human, more real, etc. Businesses deliver real value in a way that everyone in the entire ecosystem flourishes. To me, we trapped by these old world words of business that we must chuck out the window and now's our chance.

Yeah, I was going to say.

Sorry.

Yeah, please, please, sorry, go ahead.

It's just Marcella. Hi, good evening from London and it's a really great question and I think what I picked up on there was the biggest danger here and the biggest danger is that we are all so exhausted at the end of this that we lapse back into what's familiar. You know, like you do when you're on a diet, you know, it just gets too hard and you just go back to what's familiar. You know, I don't know, maybe I'm.

The only one who does a lot.

Of dieting as possible, but I tell you that that's what happens when you diet. But what I think is, should be an important positive takeaway here is that there has been, there are trillions of dollars looking for a home in terms of investment, and there has been for a long time. And actually if we can find some real heroes and heroines amongst these people who are going to invest those things, then things like, really, to me, the key thing we need to do is decouple consumerism from capitalism, because capitalism can work. Capitalism has a lot of positives, but the consumerism element of it is leading us into all sorts of nightmares. It's where it's effectively the advertising industry, it's the suggestion economy, as I call it. And I think if we can decouple those two things, we can bring circularity in. Then actually all we need are those heroes and heroines who are willing to take a punt and say, right, yeah, I am going to invest in this. We're going to stop putting money where vision is, because vision really does need that money behind it. And the danger is that that doesn't happen.

Let me comment on this issue of investors. You know, there's a question here about investors. I think it's really important to see now, if you're an investor today, you're going to have to look for the next thing. The old thing is running down, like the end of oil is a certainty now, right? Get out of oil as quickly as you can because this crisis is going to make it even worse. And it's now the next thing that we have to think about health care that's definitely a factor. Anything to do with social taking care of people is booming. Technology that allows. What we're doing now clearly is also the future. I mean, we're looking about basically sustainable investing, impact investing. That's the normal now after this crisis. And let me also say on one point, and then we're going to go to some polls, okay? There is hope. We have some really amazing people, mostly young people and women who are now in charge, like Jacinda Ardern in New Zealand, Santa Maria Sana Marin is her name in Finland. Right. We have Christiana Figueras, who used to run the climate change panel, who's not a politician yet but may get there eventually. We have amazing people who are coming forth and I predict the next five years we're going to see young people, we're going to see women, we're going to see minorities, we're going to see people a lot more Gretas, a lot more Harares, a lot more people who are going to catalyze this. And this is happening now. And everybody's coming out and now taking charge of describing their future. So let's do some quick polls because I don't want to forget them. It's already quite late here. And thanks, Marcella, again for chiming in. Okay, we're going to go to the next poll. Where is the next poll? Let's see if I can find it. Okay. So we would like to know what topics would interest you for the next couple sessions. You know, this is something we, you know, you can have multiple choices here, by the way, on this one. So we would like to know if we go forward with these and pretty soon on a global level with other people from the company. In the meantime, while the poll is running, why don't you guys quickly say where people can find out more about you in terms of websites.

I think it's quite funny that you want to have people knowing more about online conferences. Scared. I actually think you could do a big great job out of that. You were such a great teacher.

Thank you. Thank you, thank you. I'll take, I'll take the hint on this one. Okay, good. So where can people find out something about you?

Yes. Oh, atthefuturenavigator.com if you are English speaker and DK if you are Danish and. Yes. And of course at the Futures Agency with you guys.

Yeah. Thank you, anton.

So I'm futureworld.org or Futures Agency as well.

Great.

Yeah. And you can find me on Twitter, DYadamson and also@ulteriorfutures.com which is just quite new, actually. I've just got involved with that. So, yeah. Exciting times here. And of course, at the wonderful Futures Agency.

Great. We got 54% of people saying they want to hear about the future of work. That's a very good topic. In fact, I just made a movie on this. Now, I can say this right? You can watch it online. I manipulated the poll that would come out of this, right? So it's the future. HowTheFutureWorks TV. We just put this online about six weeks ago. HowTheFutureWorks TV. Then you can watch five minutes of this. But this is definitely a thing. So I'm going to see if we can actually, I think we can share the poll. Share the results here. Let me share the results. There they are. You can see it all for yourself. What your cohorts have said.

Now you are jumping. I'm telling you to give you some feedback here. Lean back a little bit. Relax.

I guess I'm moving the table here.

I don't know what's going on, but I'm getting all dizzy.

Yeah. Now this is the table. It's not.

It's because he's getting way too close. Lies a lotto.

I'm just saying.

Yeah. There's no earthquake or anything. Okay. I want to do one more important thing. I found somebody else do on the next poll. Okay, we're gonna unmute everybody in a second. Okay. And you get to have what we call a special crowd burst. Okay. And the crowd burst is you can say yes or no. We're going to do two of those. Okay. And we're going to measure how many yeses or no no's by the amount of action there. Here's the question. Is the future better than we think? If you feel yes, you get to say scream yes into your microphones in just one second. If I can find the right button here. Let me see if I can find the button here on the attendees. I think there is a function that allows this, or at least they used to be, Right? Oh, yeah. Now it doesn't. Sorry about that. You're going to have to use the chat somewhere. The button went away. You know, this is the. This is the pleasure of zoom. Forget I ever said that was nice trying, but you can use the chat, too. Yeah. Yes. Okay. Ah, there we go. Yes. Yes, yes. That's good. Okay, that's. You guys are right there. You're beating me to it here. Let me see.

I haven't seen a single no yet. That's fantastic.

Yeah.

We only ask for Your.

Yes.

Yeah, this is a way of like. It's like a focus group. Right. Do you like my product? Yes. Yes, yes. So let's ask the worst of the question. You think the future is worse than we think? Okay, give us a chat answer here. No on this. Of course. No, actually, no, it's not.

Worse than we think means yes.

No, no, no. This is a stupid question. Right. So if you don't think the future is better than we think, you use the. No, Sorry about that. I mean, this is clearly a trial here for stuff. Right? So anyway, so yes, it will be better. We're going to download all those chats and then we'll sit on them. Okay. I'm going to have one more poll. Okay. And then I think we're going to wrap up. Okay, now you get to be brutally honest here. What are your thoughts about this event? And this is not anonymous, except for Google, which knows everything about you all the time. So this is anonymous. Yeah. Tell us if you're impressed, if you're not impressed, if the sound of video was good and what else we can be doing for this. And in the meantime, you can find out more about my work@futuristgarrett.com and of course on my YouTube channel where you're live streaming if you're there. And in my book, tech versus Human dot com. Oh, this is interesting. So it tells me. Okay, there's an optional question here. It doesn't say, you know, gert, get off the screen or something. That doesn't say, okay, this is quite good sounding video was good. People are happy about that. You felt welcome. Well, you guys are very nice to us. You know, we.

Yeah, thank you. We are working for free too.

Yes, that's true. Yeah. Of course, that's not the ultimate intent. Right. Okay, let me see if I can share this. I think everybody has voted. Yeah. Have you all voted? Loved it, Liked it. Okay. Wow, you guys are really generous here. So let me end the poll and share results. Okay. Now. Wow, this is very good. Yeah. So, yeah, I really love the Zoom system. I have to say. I tried like 10 and this was definitely a good solution apart from me shaking the table. I think that maybe Zoom can, can fix that as well. Final poll and then we're going to do a wrap up. Okay. For the speakers, I want 30 seconds of why you think the future is good or not. 30 seconds of your summary why you think we're going into a future that you feel hopeful about. Why should we have hope? And just wrap that up In a session. Okay, now we're getting to the tough question, and this is a question we have debated for a long time. Would you pay? Because, surprise, surprise, now, after you've participated, we're going to charge you money. No, just kidding. But we want to know if. What you think about paying. And we've been contemplating this for a long time. You know, there's 50 people now, members of the Futures Agency, and we don't usually go directly to the consumers. Right. We work with agencies and companies. And so we're wondering how this could work in the future. And I've had this week maybe a dozen calls from agencies who are saying we want to go online and do this with you guys as speakers. And of course, we're happy not to travel so we can be much more flexible and stuff. So this is a tough question. I know. So, but, you know, don't, don't feel, don't feel pressured here. I think this is also multiple choice. Yeah, but it's pretty sure. So we hope, we do hope. The way to get some good news from this, by the way, future events, we're going to do at least one a week. And yes, if you're. Australia, New Zealand, I know it's very late for you guys down there. We're going to do one in different time zones. We have also been listening to result from the last session that there were only white guys, older white guys on the, on the panel. Right.

That's why we're here. Thank you.

No, no, that's not why you're here. This is why. Because we're tapping into the resource that we have and this has been very difficult, difficult in the past few years is to make a good balance on that. We're really working on that. So I can assure you that we're making the effort there. If you want to find out more about the future events, it's the conference digital. It's also a new site that we've launched where you can see the schedule and also download the videos and, and this kind of stuff. So let's see, we have a poll here. Not everybody has voted. I'll give you. Yeah, come on, keep on the voting. Yeah. Okay. So so far we have people who said, okay, it depends on who the speakers are. Well, thank you. That is obviously good reason to get paid. The company should pay. I tend to agree with that as well. It's very interesting view. I think I'll let you keep voting on this. Okay. Because obviously will take a little while. So we'll just keep voting on this.

There'S an interesting suggestion that people should be able to pay after the event whatever they think it was worth. I think that's quite a cool idea.

Yes. You can bring the suitcase full of dollar bills then remotely, so to speak, through PayPal or something. So I think most of you have voted. So I'm going to end the poll and share. Looks like people are done voting. No, you're still watching. Okay. Yeah, maybe I'll just keep this open for a little bit. Okay. 142. No, let's end it. I'm going to share this. Okay.

Because I was just thinking maybe we could make a new format so that you can have almost one on ones because you can have post some questions and then you can almost gather the answers from different people around the world and then you have your little collage made exactly for you. So instead of making it a general future, you can have your own curated future. That could be quite exciting too.

Yeah. I think there's lots of really amazing new business models. We're experimenting, we're trying this. You know, I think this is great also for us at the features agency. I don't think we've ever collaborated as much as well as we do now because we just haven't had the time. We just didn't have the time.

Exactly.

You know, that goes for myself too. And it's also, I think that's when we do speaking gigs, we're very much focused on that sort of we're the people on stage and that's it. Right. And that's changing completely now. And I think that takes a while to get used to it. Also because of the interaction just doesn't feel in the same way. But I think we're going to get there. Next week we have a session about how to do an online conference. That's with Anthony Lassenai. It's an online conference about online conferencing. So let's check it out. It's also on the page, the conference Digital. Good. I'm going to stop the sharing here and I think we should go the wrap up. Yeah. Because time is fleeting. So please. Who wants to go first? So I'll go first.

I'll say I'm extremely positive because nature teaches us. As my former partner and friend Wolfgang Grouke also says, extinction is a vital part of life because it creates create space in which innovation and invention can take place. And I think that humans are resilient. I think we generally motivated by love and caring for the most part. And I think we will navigate and innovate our way out of the white space that will be created by the extinction both businesses and sadly, personal lives that this Coro 19 period is going to bring to us.

Thank you. Next one?

Yeah, I'll jump in. Yes. I think the thing that makes me most hopeful about the future is that what's happening now is a really, really human thing. And actually what we're seeing everywhere is people actually rebooting and going back to basics, which is, you know, do I need this stuff? What do I really, really need to buy, you know, who do I really need to see what's absolutely essential in my life? And I think it's making the future more accessible actually, because it's bringing it down to a human level. And an awful lot of what we've done in the last 50 years really has all been about technology. And I think, as I said, that does disempower people. And I hope what this terrible episode has done is made people realize that they are very much responsible for their own future. And I'm hoping that that is going to be a seed that's planted that will actually enable them to engage with other things beyond just am I going to get coronavirus in the next two weeks? And actually more about how has this changed my society and what would I like to see change? And I think, as I say, if we can get some conveners to start showing people the networks that they need to be influential, then I think that could be hugely positive. So that's why I'm positive.

I would like to end on a real futuristic note with two scenarios. One is where people are binging, watching other people living their lives. We have a hard time finding out how to create values, fearing that the robots are coming, the virus is coming to take them, and then there's another group who are engaging actively in society. And I think the fantastic part in this is that technology is right now democratizing that so we can have the traditional up and lower classes being in a sense eliminated. And it will be far more up to the individual how much they want to engage actively and how good they are at supporting each other locally. So don't lean back and wait for a bright or black future. Create it yourself.

Great. And I want to even top this and say, like I like to say, the future is better than we think. And that's even more true now. I think first we have all the tools of technology and science just coming in on us. We have the tools to create the future we want. And now there's going to be even more money going into that future into healthcare and sciences. And so that is a very good horizon even before the crisis. Second, I believe that people basically are not bad. I believe that people are good. I believe that we have the power to do the right thing. We do the right thing. If the result is good for us, if we can feel it coming back, I believe that we can do this together. And I see that everywhere around here, people singing from windows and we do the right thing. We are not bad. And third, I think government and democracy around the world is completely changing because of this event. I see people coming forward like Jacinda and others who will make such a vast difference. Everybody's going to try to copy them. And I think populists and people that have done nothing, they're going to fall by the wayside, as I said in my article, because they've proven to be utterly useless. And then we're going to have new people. So I have great hope on this. I think this is a time of huge change, as I said, the great transformation. And anybody else care to comment? Otherwise, I think we should probably wrap it up here. So thanks very much for being part of this. It's been a real pleasure. Despite all of all the minor setbacks on technology and stuff. Thanks to the panelists, thanks to all of the visitors and attendees and the hand raisers and the chatters. We're going to publish everything in about five minutes. You're going to get an email. Actually about 45 minutes. Yeah, you're going to get an email with a summary of this event. In the meantime, I'm going to put this live on futurewithgert.com just look at the blog, then you see all the slides and, and the audio and the video and the whole thing. Okay, do stay connected the conference digital and sign up for the next one. Spread the word and yeah, don't give up. Well then, thank you. Thank you. Ciao everybody. Bye bye everybody. Thank you.