Harvard Professor Says THIS Is the Secret to Success (It’s Not What You Think)

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This podcast is brought to you by Expedia. Planning a family vacation is a lot. Everybody has different schedules, different needs, and strong opinions. So wouldn't it be nice to have a copilot? Something that makes the planning part way easier? That's where Expedia comes in. Expedia lets you book flights, hotels, vacation rentals, cars, activities, all in one place. And when you bundle it together, you can save up to 30%. Plus, if plans change, because they always do, at least in my family, Expedia helps you stay in control. Expedia, the one place you go to go places. Members only, savings vary, see site for details. Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast. Oh boy, you're gonna be so excited you tuned in today. I am doubly excited. Excited for today's conversation with you. Doubly— is that even a word? Double excited? Doubly? I don't even know. Who cares? We're going to use it today. I'm doubly excited because I know I am going to get so much out of this selfishly. Look, I'm always looking out for you, but when I also get doubly the impact because I need the punch in the face of this topic— whoa, do we have a doozy. What is the topic we're going to talk about? Well, it's something that you and I do. In fact, every human being does this, and I don't think I've ever heard anybody talk about it in this manner before. That's why I'm doubly excited for the expert that we've got on today. We have the world's leading expert on the topic of avoidance. Avoidance? The hell is avoidance, Mel? I know. Have you ever even thought about it? I bet you haven't, because until I read Dr. Luana Marquez's new book, Bold Moves, I hadn't thought about how much I avoid things in life. I mean, holy guacamole. I not only have a habit of avoiding things that feel hard, avoidance is everywhere in my life, and I bet it's everywhere in your life. It is so sneaky how this creeps in, and next thing you know, you're avoiding responding to an email because the email is confronting, or you're avoiding dealing with your bills, or you're avoiding having that hard conversation, or maybe you're avoiding something really big, like that breakup or the talk or going to get that diagnosis that you're scared about. Well, what Dr. Marquez is here to tell you is that avoidance is robbing you and the people that you care about of all the magic that you're capable of experiencing in your life. And we gotta stop doing it today. And you wanna know what else you need to do today? You gotta listen all the way to the end because in the last episode, we rolled out bloopers for the first time, something I'd been thinking about but avoiding doing. You went crazy for our first ever bloopers at the end of the show. So we're gonna do it again today. So listen all the way to the end and you're gonna love Dr. Luana. She went from being poverty-stricken in Brazil to becoming a professor of psychiatry at Harvard. She is also on the clinical staff at Mass General, which is one of the number one ranked health institutions in the entire world. And today, She is bringing that world-class training to you free of charge. How cool is that? And she is not gonna avoid the hard stuff. She's changed how I think. She's highlighted an issue that I didn't even realize was so prevalent in my life. And the same thing is gonna happen for you. Dr. Luana, welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast.

Thank you, Mel. I'm so excited to be here with you today. I can't even tell you how excited I am.

Well, it's an honor to talk to you. Your work centers around one skill that everybody on the planet needs to learn how to spot and master. What is it?

So my work really is about identifying avoidance and overcoming avoidance. That is it.

Why do we need to do that?

Because avoidance is robbing us from our best life. It's keeping us prisoners of our own thinking and our own behavior, and that keeps us in our own mental jail.

I know that you are a specialist in CBT therapy. We're gonna get into that, but I want everybody to hear your background.

Mel, you know, it's interesting. People come to me and they say, "Get rid of my anxiety." But the problem is really not anxiety, it's what we do when we are anxious. And what we do is we avoid. And let me tell you this, I learned this first when I was like 15 and I moved in with my grandmother. So I lived in a little city, Goiânia do Valadares in Brazil, and I moved into a little city Zoanchi. And I just became terrified of people. Like, my brain would just scream that people were not gonna like me, that they think I'm different, that I come from a small town, that I'm not enough. And so my grandmother noticed this. She's like, why don't you bring friends over? And I'd be like, oh no, no, I just have to study. I need to really study. And I started to just avoid people, anything related to people. I didn't make friends. I started to feel lonely. I was really anxious. My brain just was failing me. My grandmother, this woman is incredible, right? She has no college training, she doesn't know, at that point CBT was nothing, cognitive behavioral therapy wasn't really in Brazil, specifically didn't exist. She one day said to me, Luana, let's go to the mall. I want us to eat Chinese food. Now, before I moved with my grandmother, there were times in our lives that we didn't have food. And so this idea of having Chinese food in a big town, my grandmother, was so exciting. I get this little tray, I still remember this, my hands like so excited, this Chinese, I could smell the Chinese food. And she says to me, Do you see that gentleman there, the elder gentleman? Let's go talk to him. And my stomach, Mel, dropped. I was like, no, I'm not talking to him. What are you talking about? Like, you know, that anxiety in your pit of your stomach just turning. And I was like, I can't do this. Like, I just can't do this. And she's like, we're going to talk to him. And so we sat and she did all the talking. And at that point, I didn't want the Chinese food anymore. Let's be clear, right?

Like, you have no appetite.

I had no appetite. And And she just kept doing this. We did it again and again. And I, I don't remember how many times, but I remember that eventually I could talk to people, and eventually people weren't scary anymore, and eventually I made friends. And I realized in graduate school, like later, 20 years later, I realized that my grandmother was doing— it's called exposure therapy. She realized I was avoiding, right? I was avoiding strangers, and she forced me, that's how I felt. She would tell you that she just helped me approach, but she taught me to go against that avoidance, to go towards the things that matter. And I'm telling you, if she didn't do that, I probably would have developed social phobia. I probably would be stuck in Brazil still. And so that's why I think avoidance is so powerful. It robs us from the lives that we want. And there's a ton of science behind it, but I learned it from my grandmother.

I have my jaw on the floor. And the reason why is I don't think anybody has really shone this spotlight on the topic of avoidance and how it's everywhere in our lives. And we'll dig into the way that we all avoid, but I'm having this moment where I'm going, holy cow, I remember when Brené Brown first gave that TED Talk about vulnerability and the whole world was like, what? Vulnerability is a superpower? The way you just explained avoidance as something that uncomfortable situations trigger and that it's not being anxious or scared or whatever that's the problem, it's really what we do with it. And avoiding is the main thing we do. You're right. You know, thank God for your grandmother. Let's give her grandmother some props, everybody, because dragging you to the mall, Dr. Luana, and not allowing you to avoid other people because she did that, it changed the trajectory of your life. You probably wouldn't be where you are today if not for your grandmother. And in reading your new book, I was blown away by how prevalent avoidance is in everybody's life. I mean, it's just so easy to opt out, to not go, to not try. It's almost like it's your default.

Yeah, that's what we do. Like, and we do it all the time. We rationalize our way into avoidance. You know, I'm, I'm not gonna ask for this raise because, you know, I just haven't worked hard enough. Or, "I'm not going on this date because, you know, I'm afraid of dating." No, no, no, no. And it's everywhere, right? It's robbing us from our lives, and no one's talking about avoidance. I'm so glad that you caught onto that, Mel, because that's right. It's what we do. And if what we do is walk away from the things that are meaningful, if what we do is avoidance, then we are robbing ourselves from our best lives.

Holy cow. You're absolutely right. There's somebody really close to us and our family who has had this massive uptick of anxiety happen. It has been so debilitating that this person has actually taken an entire week off of work. And I've been thinking, that's actually the opposite of what you should do. Because if you are scared that you're gonna have a panic attack at work, so you don't go to work, you're making the anxiety bigger than you. Avoiding that thing makes the fear bigger.

That's exactly right. This is a great example of this person because the instinct is biologically driven, right, is to go away.

So can you walk us through this work example?

So you start to worry about having a panic attack. I've worked with lots of people that have panic attacks. And so you're at work, you have this horrible panic attack, and then your brain basically now is saying, well, work can lead to panic attacks, so I'm going to stay home.

That makes sense, though. If I had a panic attack at work, I would want to stay home from work too.

But what you're doing is you're actually training your brain to be scared of work because now you're linking work with a panic attack. And let's be honest, there was no link there.

Oh, that's a good point. I see what you're saying. When I have a panic attack at work, I make this mistake where I link the panic attack with the physical location of where I had it. Rather than telling myself that the panic attack is the result of some internal emotional issue that I need to address. It has nothing to do with work. It's a deeper thing, right?

Panic attacks can come out of the blue. But then if you take a whole week out of work, then what are you doing? You can't avoid for long, right? You're going to come out with a baseline anxiety so high that now you're almost guaranteeing that you're going to have a panic attack at work because you've been so I'm so afraid of it, right? You're inducing that fight, flight, or freeze.

So what do you do? Do you just tell the person to get over it and get back to work?

The opposite of avoidance is approach. Now, just do it the way Nike tells us to do, doesn't work with anxiety. You can't tell somebody that's having panic attacks, just go work, right? But can you drive towards work for a week? Okay, I'm with you.

Yep.

Okay.

I've been in this boat too. I've actually had anxiety so bad that, It built and built and built and built up inside me when I was a second-year law student that I convinced myself that there was no way that I could get on a plane and go to Albuquerque, New Mexico, where I had landed a summer job, and be able to live and work on my own. And I— Talk about avoidance. I called that law firm. And told them that I had had a family emergency and I had to not come. This was 2 days before I was supposed to get on the plane. And so I have done this over and over and over and over again in my life. You're right. You do link up. If I just don't do it, then I'm going to be okay. But you actually make it worse.

I wish I knew you then because see, There's two pieces of avoidance that we're talking about. The first one is the perception of threat, right? You've flown many times before in your life, but now your brain convinced you that that flight was a threat, a perceived threat, not a real danger, a perception.

Right. So that's the first piece. It's the perception of the threat. And when I think about it, I viewed the plane flight as a threat because if I was getting on that plane, it meant I was going somewhere that I was afraid to go for the summer. So the avoidance did kick in the closer I got to having to get on that flight.

And so then the long-term cost of avoidance, the prices that you pay. Think about this. You did not go in a summer internship that I bet you worked really hard, Mel, to get.

Yeah.

I, I imagine that was like a big ticket and your brain just in that moment said, not gonna do it. And then we have to find a way out. So you created an emergency. And that's avoiding. You've retreated, like you avoided by retreating from something that was so meaningful.

Yeah. Yeah. It's— I have done that over and over and over again. I think that's why I feel so sad for this person in our life who is doing this right now, because I'm thinking to myself, this is going to create the opposite impact. So you said that your grandmother forcing you to go to the mall and sit with that person changed the trajectory of your life.

100%. So there's two things she did for me, actually. Let me just add the second one. So one was push me to approach instead of avoid. The second one was at 16, she gave me The Alchemist by Paulo Coelho.

Oh yeah. Uh-huh.

I'm sure you've read The Alchemist, right? And she did it because the narrative in my brain was You know, growing up poor, single mother, my mom fighting so hard to get us somewhere. And I should tell everybody listening to us, my grandmother was not really my grandmother. She was the mother of my stepfather who started to date my mom, and they came from a different socioeconomic status. She had a different view of the world. So she gave me the Alchemist because one day I was sitting with her for coffee and I said, you know, I really don't know what's going to be in my life. You know, I want to eventually pursue a medical degree or I want to do this, but My mom is never gonna be able to pay for college. And The Alchemist shifted my perspective. How? Well, there's a sentence in the book that says, whenever you want something, the whole universe conspires in having it. And my grandmother basically said to me, listen, you are responsible for the narrative in your brain. You can, you can believe what your brain is telling you, or you can change the narrative in your brain. And she, she forced me to push, like, what would you want? I said, well, eventually I wanna become an exchange student. Eventually I wanna get to the US. And she's like, You're responsible for creating that. And somehow, Mel, that those conversations— my grandmother would sit with me every day and have coffee and have those conversations. I started to believe that just maybe I could do it, that maybe I could by approaching and changing the topic.

That makes so much sense. So your grandmother gave you this incredible gift where she forced you to face something, to approach it, right? This fear of people. I'd love for you to share how that experience helped you continue to confront avoidance all the way to a professorship at Harvard? How about we do that when we come back from a short break? Stay with us. You know that feeling when your brain is fried? You have like 12 irritating tasks you don't care about, but you have to do them anyway? That's where I've been lately. The administrative stuff was eating up half my day. So I've been using Microsoft Copilot as my extra set of hands. It's like having your own personal assistant. That's why Microsoft Copilot is my favorite AI tool. Last week, I had to send this long, overly complicated email about scheduling and travel, the kind of thing that takes up way too much energy for what it is. I opened Copilot, talked to it out loud while I was walking around my kitchen, and Copilot turned it into a clean, professional draft. It was amazing. And because my brain wasn't fried, I had the energy to sit down and eat dinner with Chris without feeling mentally wiped. That's the whole point for me. Microsoft Copilot clears the clutter so I can be more present for the moments that matter. That's why I'm using it. If you want to try it for yourself, visit microsoft.com/melrobbins to download the Copilot app. Get started with Copilot today for free and see how handing off the small stuff gives you more energy for the moments that matter. That's microsoft.com/melrobbins. Melrobbins.com/melrobbins. Creating a better life doesn't happen all at once. It happens with small decisions that save you time and even money. Walmart+ helps you get more savings every day without extra hassle. Anything that's going to save me time, because you can tell I'm sick, right? And still allow me to live my life and get the things that I need done is going to be something I really want right now. And with Walmart+, you can get groceries and more delivered from your local Walmart. For free. How cool is that? I don't even have to leave the house feeling and looking like I do right now. Plus, you can enjoy free next day and 2-day shipping on items from walmart.com with no order minimum. As a member, you can also save 10 cents per gallon at over 13,000 ExxonMobil, Murphy, and Walmart gas stations every time you fill up. And your Walmart+ membership includes a Paramount+ or Peacock subscription for free, which is perfect on those days you just want to collapse on the couch in your comfy sweats and stream something. Small changes, real savings. Try Walmart+ at walmartplus.com. $35 order minimum. Restrictions apply. Choose one ad-supported service every 90 days. Peacock Premium or Paramount+ Essential. Additional registration required. Terms and conditions apply. Available at participating stations. May vary by location and subject to change. It can be easy to forget how much me time really does matter, especially when life gets stressful. Things pile up. You're so focused on everybody else and whatever it is that's on fire right now that before you know it, you haven't really paused at all. But taking even a little time for yourself can help you reset and recharge because a moment of me time can shift how you move through the rest of your day and even through your whole week. At Massage Envy, your me time is all about you. Maybe it's a relief massage to ease those everyday aches and pains. Or a relaxation massage to help you fully unwind. Or maybe your skin really deserves some attention and some love with a results-driven facial designed to focus on things like fine lines, blemishes, uneven-looking skin tone, dullness, or whatever it is that your skin needs. Whatever you need to feel and look your best, there is a service at Massage Envy that's designed to help you feel that way. Book your appointment at MassageEnvy.com today. Each location is an independently owned and operated franchise. Welcome back. I'm Mel Robbins. I'm so glad you're here because you and I are getting an eye-opening look at the habit of avoiding things in our life with Dr. Luana Marquez. And she was just about to tell us how confronting the habit of avoidance changed the trajectory of her life and led her to a professorship at Harvard and the clinical staff at Mass General Hospital.

So my grandmother, in helping me to approach instead of avoid and shift my perspective, the first thing she did is she helped me change my narrative. But the interesting thing about avoidance is it continues to show up in your life. And so when I applied for college in the US, I remember writing the essays and, you know, my English still wasn't very good. And my brain kept saying, you know what, a little girl from Brazil can't apply. Like, it's not— you're not good enough. I held on to the applications so much, Mel, because of those beliefs that my stepdad had to one point be like, We need to mail it. You're not going to get in if you don't submit your applications. And I was like, oh yeah, there's that thing called submitting. And so I submitted them and then I got accepted at SUNY Buffalo. And so I end up at SUNY Buffalo. And when I was applying to the doctoral program, so I got to under— actually before, as an undergraduate, this was, you know, I really, I never thought I was going to be a psychologist. I thought I was going to be a medical doctor in Brazil, either medical doctor or lawyer. That's how you pay the bills. Came to the US, I started to take biochemistry and pre-med courses, and then a psychology course for the fun of it. And I loved the psychology courses, loved it. But my brain kept saying, you need to be a medical doctor, you need to be a medical doctor. So I went home to Brazil. My grandmother's in all my stories, I'm sorry, but that's the reality. And I said to my grandmother, I said, you know, I was thinking about being a psychologist, but I don't know. And she's like, it's simple. You take psychology classes, you take biology classes. Which one is easier in your brain? That's what you do for a living. Why do you have to have a hard life in You can do things against your brain. And I looked at her and I said, well, I get a C in biochemistry, I get an A+ in psychology. She says, go be a psychologist. And I was like, that simple? She's like, yeah, like why do you fight? Why do people fight so much to be what they can be that comes easy to their brain?

Why do we?

Because I think we avoid, we avoid our reality. Like facing reality does not mean we like it. And I had to face reality that day. And I remember going for a walk with my dad and my stepdad and saying to him, like, I know you're helping with college and all of that. But I don't wanna be a medical doctor anymore. I was shaking, Mel, like shaking of anxiety, you know? And he looked at me and he said, you know what, you're gonna be poor if you're a psychologist. You can't be a psychologist. You really, like, and I was terrified that he's gonna pull the plug and not help with college anymore. And I looked at him, I said, you know what, I'm good at this. Like, I wanna do this. And like, I almost avoided, like, I still took biochemistry, or I think it was organic chemistry for another semester until I finally came clean again with him. I was like, I can't, like, this is not me. So then I got to graduate school and wanted to apply to Harvard, as I told you before. And people said to me, state students don't get it. And I was so terrified, cried, cried a lot. And then I applied. And I remember the day I walk in for the interview at Mass General, I was listening to Daniela Mercury, the Brazilian singer, to pump me up. And like, my entire body wanted to run the opposite way. It's like, you know, I wanted to avoid, but I showed up and I applied and got in. And I'll share one more example of sort of, you know, landing at Harvard. In about 2017, I wanted to be the president of the Anxiety and Depression Association of America. I was on the board, the youngest person in the board, an organization that tends to be majority white. I was the only Latina person in the board, the only person of color on the board. And the opportunity to run for president came up. And I just had my son. He was like 3 months old. I was home, and I went for dinner with a colleague, a senior colleague, the night before the election. And she heard that I was running. And this woman literally said to me at dinner, she says, you're too young. You shouldn't do this. You shouldn't run for this. It's amazing to me how women do this to other women, by the way. They're like— and I got home crying to my husband and said to him, David, you know what? I'm not going to apply. Like, maybe I'm too young, and maybe I'm not gonna be a good mother, and maybe I'm not gonna have enough energy to be present. And so I wrote an entire email to the board to pull my application, explaining not what this woman told me, not the truth, by the way. I was gonna do your example of the law school. I literally was going to do your example. I was going to Hawaii. And I sat there, and then my husband like held my hand, and he looked at me, says, since I've met you, you've wanted this. He's like, do you really want to stop what you want based on what this woman is telling you? Like, he called me out on my avoidance, and I deleted the email. And I was so anxious for that interview the next day for the election. But I won.

I won.

Can you believe it? I became the first Latina president of the Anxiety and Depression Association of America. And it could have been taken from me if I listened to what this woman said to me.

By yourself?

By myself. And that's it. We are the worst problem. We are the ones avoiding. I can't blame her. She can— I mean, people say all sorts of things for us, but do we have to believe it? Yeah.

Like if somebody said to you, "Why don't you just leave your son on the side of the road?" You'd be like, "Are you fucking crazy?" Yes. But we listen and indulge other people's opinions. About things that really matter to us. And then we avoid it.

And then we avoid it.

And what I keep getting, and I hope that you're getting as you're listening, is that your whole life is one giant gift waiting for you to unwrap it. And there are ways in which you sit there and stare at it and you actively avoid reaching out to shred the paper or pull on that ribbon. And it begins with the stories that you're telling yourself.

So when I tell my story, people are like, oh, it's so incredible, it's so bold. No, I was scared shitless a lot of the times. Bottom line. And I wanted to avoid— when I was at SUNY Buffalo, my mentor was really tough on me, actually. And I wanted to apply to Harvard internship at Mass General Hospital in Boston. And what she said is, state students don't get in. And I remember sitting in my office crying as I write this application letter, thinking, maybe I should just apply somewhere else. Maybe I'm not good enough.

There's the narrative in your head.

I remember that time I was like, you know what, if I don't apply, that's— I remember my grandmother, if you don't try, you don't know. And so I applied. I shared this in the spirit of like, we can't get rid of anxiety. I know everybody wants to, but we can't. What we can get rid of is avoidance. That we can get rid of.

Can we unpack avoidance? Because it's not just an anxiety response. Like, I'm thinking about the number of conversations that people avoid. The number of situations that people avoid, uh, the number of experiences that people want to do. I can think about one for myself where my daughter Sawyer and Chris have both gone skydiving, and our son turned 18 and he wants to go skydiving. And I feel this pull of wanting to do it, but I am scared shitless of doing and I can feel the avoidance in my body. It's not anxiety. It is like a wall. But I feel like this avoidance topic, can we blow it open so that anybody listening who's like, well, I don't have anxiety, but you're avoiding something.

Oh, yeah.

So talk to us about what avoidance looks like. What are surprising symptoms or ways that people avoid things?

I'm definitely going to talk about avoidance in a second, but before I wanted to commit to go skydiving with me. Come on, Mel. Me? Yeah, we can do it.

All right. You're invited to Oakley's 18th birthday skydiving party. I'm going.

Okay.

I'm going to go because I don't want to miss out on life.

So the only reason I went there is this. So I learned I had a fear of heights hiking Yosemite National Park. I had no idea. My whole life I just said I didn't like roller coasters. You know, I wasn't avoiding roller coasters. I just didn't like roller coasters.

Yeah.

Who needs to go on roller coasters anyhow? But I was hiking. I get to the end of Yosemite National Park and you have to hold to these cables, right? And I just started to cry. The whole height phobia just came in. And my professional career is getting people to approach, not avoid. And I was like, okay, I can't do this. And so I started my own hierarchy and I started by doing chairs and then stairs and then going to the roof of my house. And then I got to the top of it, which was skydiving. I was so terrified and I avoided for a while. Eventually, my friend is like, you know what to do. So she took me skydiving and I went 3 times in a row in the same day. That's the only way to overcome that fear of heights is that you have to train your brain to just do it over and over again. And now I love skydiving. It's like so fun.

Really?

I am not joking.

So could you go back to Yosemite now and be with those cables?

100%.

Because what I always used to say is I'm not afraid of heights. I have this feeling that I'm falling.

Yeah, but that's, that's just biology, Mel. That's just biology. And it's the same biology behind avoidance. So, so you asked me about avoidance. So avoidance is anything that we do or don't do.

Yeah.

Okay. In response to a perceived threat that is designed. So there's a perceived threat that's designed to bring our anxiety, discomfort, you name it, down fast. Okay. But it keeps us stuck long term.

Huh.

So let me, let me unpack this for us.

Please.

I call it the 3 Rs of avoidance. We either retreat, react, or remain. Okay. So if we retreat, what do I mean by that? It's what you're doing about skydiving. You have this thought and you're like, I'm just gonna move away. Retreating is moving away from discomfort. That's that flavor of avoidance. People retreat when they get an email that they don't like, they don't read that email. My husband does it all the time. He puts an email on the other screen. He's like, I'm just not gonna look at that. We retreat by not having conversations with people. We're in our head, we are thinking, we are ruminating, right? We're moving away from discomfort. For some of us, avoidance is reacting. That's how I avoid. Whenever something threatens me, perception of threat, an email about somebody that I don't like or conflict, I feel so anxious. So I write an email really fast. I can't believe you said this, blah, blah, blah. And I press send. And then I'm like stuck on email jail because now I just reacted without thinking. And that's avoidance. Whenever I feel threat, the way he reacts with anger.

Oh, yes. I yell at my dog when he's barking too much.

I'm like, ah! That's it. Because your dog barking is creating some discomfort in your body. That discomfort in your body, basically you have to attack the discomfort so you feel better. Right? Responding to email, anger, grabbing a drink too fast, have a bad day and just going to—

Oh, so is having a smoke, a vape, hitting a joint, pouring a drink, that is reacting?

Yes. Let me do that third one and then we can unpack a couple of examples. But the third one is remain. This is the deer in the headlight. It is staying in a situation when you know it no longer works. You're in a job you dislike, but the fear of another job just makes you so paralyzed. You stay, stay in a relationship that you don't like, right? It's frozen. So the, the remain of avoidance, you're frozen in place. You know it's not working, right? But you're not going towards this comfort or moving away. You're just literally frozen.

For anybody that feels like, well, I don't have anxiety, what you do have are moments every single day where your emotions get triggered and you're uncomfortable.

That's it.

And what I'm gathering from this conversation is that your work is really about creating a baseline of emotional peace.

That's 100% it. So what I want to create is a comfortably uncomfortable world, a world that you're just enough out of your comfort zone towards the things that matter the most, and that you're fighting the real enemy here, which is avoidance. We just turn on the TV and I'm out. We go on social media and those little moments, it's like, that's what I love your 5-second rule because that's sort of the same idea. It's like in 5 seconds you can choose to go towards a life that matters or you can choose avoidance. And it's a choice.

You're right, it is. There is a big lie that we're telling ourselves. I believe if you're really honest with yourself, you'll see that avoiding the hard stuff, avoiding the things that you fear, avoiding taking a risk, that's actually more uncomfortable because you know that you're selling yourself short. I would think that sitting alone in your apartment with no friends as a teenager was way more uncomfortable than sitting with that dude the first time with your grandmother.

100%. I love that you said it's a lie. It is a lie because the discomfort that we feel facing things is so much less than this monster that we create in our head of what they would be like. I bet when we go skydiving, you come off of that plane, you're gonna be like, you know, I landed, I was like, this is the best orgasm ever. Like, this is better than anything else. Really? It is true because it's so liberating to overcome a fear. It's Once you're out of that plane, you'll feel some fear jumping out, but then all of a sudden, your whole system quiets down and you're like, oh my God, I'm living my best life. And that's what I wish for everyone, that they find their little corners of avoidance, overcome it so they can show up. Like, are you being your best self? And if you're not, it's because you're avoiding.

Dr. Luana, it begs the question, why the hell do we do this?

Yes.

Let's have you answer that question. And I also have a great question submitted by a listener for you, and we'll answer both after a short break. And everyone stick around till the very end because we've launched bloopers at the end of every episode. And trust me when I tell you, you do not want to avoid the chance to laugh with me and all the mistakes that I make as I record these podcast episodes for you. Stay with us. If you're waking up stiff every morning, ugh, tossing and turning all night or kicking the covers off at 2:00 AM, it might have nothing to do with your sleep schedule, routines, or habits because sometimes the problem is how you're sleeping and what you're sleeping on. That's where Mattress Firm comes in. Mattress Firm knows there are common sleep problems keeping you up at night and Mattress Firm's sleep experts will match you with a more supportive mattress. Like the Tempur-Pedic Adapt. Its unique TEMPUR materials absorbs motion and delivers pressure-relieving support to each pressure point. Mattress Firm knows the importance of undisturbed quality sleep and can match you with the right Tempur-Pedic mattress for your best rest. Upgrade to a Tempur-Pedic and get next-day delivery. For the great sleep you deserve, visit Mattress Firm and upgrade to a Tempur-Pedic. Learn how to get 3% back with special financing. They make sleep easy. Restrictions apply. Next day delivery available on select mattresses and subject to location. See store for details. If you have travel coming up, spring break, a wedding abroad, or maybe an international trip for work, imagine arriving and actually understanding the language, ordering food confidently, asking for directions without panic, and connecting with locals. That's the difference learning a new language can make. Rosetta Stone has been a trusted leader in language learning for over 30 years. Their immersive, intuitive method helps you naturally absorb your new language. No memorizing random vocabulary or relying on translations. Instead, you learn by connecting words, visuals, and meaning in context, the way language is meant to be learned. I've been using Rosetta Stone to learn Spanish, and it fits so easily into my day. The lessons are short. I can do one in between meetings or while I'm winding down at night. I love using it as a way to challenge my brain in a new way and to stay off social media. Ready to start learning a new language this spring? Visit rosettastone.com/mel today to explore Rosetta Stone and choose the language that's right for you. Go to rosettastone.com/mel now and begin your language learning journey. So just this week I went into a store and I saw the most amazing cashmere V-neck sweater, and then I saw the price tag and I was like, I am not going to pay that for a sweater. And then I thought, wait a minute, I bet Quince makes something just as luxurious, just as high quality, just as stylish for a way less price. I log on to quince.com and holy cow, there is a gorgeous V-neck cashmere sweater for just over $50. See, here's the thing about Quince. They have fabrics that are premium. They have cuts that make you feel elevated. The fits are so well thought out and the pricing makes sense because Quince cuts out the middle person and then passes on the savings to you and me. So whether you're looking to buy something new to make your spring wardrobe feel springy, or you're thinking, huh, I could really use a cool cashmere sweater, refresh your spring wardrobe with Quince. Go to quince.com/mel for free shipping and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada too. Go to quince.com/mel, quince.com/mel for free shipping and 365-day returns. quince.com/mel. Welcome back. I'm Mel Robbins. I'm so glad you're here because we're getting a masterclass on the habit of avoidance from Harvard professor and bestselling author, Dr. Luana Marquez. So, Doctor, we know we avoid things that we're nervous to do, but why? Why do we avoid even the simple stuff like replying to an email from somebody we actually know?

We're biologically wired to avoid. So the brain cannot differentiate real threat from perceived threat. Our brain is wired to do what? To predict and protect. That's what our brain is doing. It's protecting us from danger and it's predicting and it's predicting based on past information. So your family member who is having some trouble with avoidance and work, The brain is using the perception of work as something really bad, like it's a lion.

Oh, so it's predicting.

It's predicting.

And then it's making a call on how to protect you based on its prediction.

That's it. And that call is avoidance, right? So instead of going on fight, flight, or freeze because there is actually a lion, that's why I coined the 3 Rs of avoidance, because it's the same biology of fight, flight, or freeze. But it's a perceived threat.

Wow, this is really sinking in. And now that I understand how prevalent this habit of avoidance is, I see it everywhere. For example, when Chris and I were in a financial freefall, I would avoid opening bills because I didn't have the money to pay them. I can also think about situations right now in my life. For example, I know I have to go through the clothes in my closet because half the stuff in there doesn't fit because of the way my body's changed with menopause. I don't do it. I haven't done it. I just close the door to the closet and I don't deal with it. I used to explode at my kids with frustration. And the reason why I would do that about stupid things is because I was avoiding the bigger conversation that was really upsetting me with the family, 'cause I just didn't wanna sit down and deal with the conversation. I can also, my God, I avoided a mammogram after I got my explant surgery because I was afraid they'd find something, which seems crazy. I'm so stupid because if you're afraid they're going to find something, then you should go get the test, right? Or what about this one? I didn't get on the Peloton bike for over 6 months because I was so out of shape. I avoided how painful that first workout was going to be and the realization of how out of shape I've gotten. This is everywhere. You know, I was also frustrated— come to mind with Chris and depression. But I avoided the conversation because, you know, I just didn't want to have to deal with it, you know. And I know that sounds lame, but I think that's relatable. This reminds me a lot of this episode that we did on procrastination and how procrastinating, when it becomes chronic, is a freeze response, and it can be tied to trauma because you're uncertain about how things are going to turn out. I mean, this is absolutely everywhere, Dr. Luana. So now that we all see it, can you talk to us about cognitive behavioral therapy? Because that's what you use in your clinical practice. What is it, and how can it help us break this habit and pattern of avoidance?

Cognitive behavioral therapy, or CBT, is a widely studied kind of therapy that's action-oriented, and it's really designed to change what we say to ourselves, how we behave, we behave and how we feel.

How does cognitive behavioral therapy work? Because you can't just change what you say and boom, suddenly your life changes. Can you break this down for us so we really get it? I mean, because for any one of you listening who sees that you're avoiding something in your life right now, what is the first step of CBT?

Such a great question, Meryl, because the first thing we need to create a pause. And in that pause, we need to do a couple of things. First, we need to understand what was the situation that triggered any kind of thoughts, emotions, and behaviors. I actually call this the thoughts, emotions, and behavior cycle.

Can we take the example of waking up and not wanting to get out of bed?

Yes, absolutely. I woke up, my brain starts to spin, and basically said, what if Mel Robbins doesn't like me? It was the first thought I had this morning. I have to just be honest with everybody listening. Oh my God. No, I mean, The anxious brain never quiets down, right? And so that thought, what if she doesn't like me, led to an emotion, which for me was a little anxiety and heart pounding. My heart pounds pretty, pretty strongly. Then my behavior was the third component, was wanting to just stay in bed. I was like, maybe I just wanna stay in bed.

Well, that's what I call Tuesday morning. I mean, it's totally relatable, right? You wake up, you're worried about something, and that triggers you to feel overwhelmed, and that triggers a behavior of avoidance, which which for me was hitting the snooze button, which I did every single morning for years. But does this thought, emotion, behavior cycle that you're describing, does it always have to begin with a thought?

Well, it depends on the entryway. For me, it was a thought, right? She's not going to like me, made me anxious, and then I wanted to behave a certain way. But they ping pong, right? If I laid in bed a little longer, I bet it would have gone this way.

Thank you for using the term ping pong. Because for me, it usually begins with an emotion or a feeling of heaviness in my body when I wake up. And then that ping-pongs the thoughts and those thoughts spiral and the thoughts then make it worse. Hence hitting the snooze button and not wanting to get out of bed. And for you listening, I want you to stop and think right now. What is it like for you if you think about those mornings where you want to just pull the covers over your head or you want to hit the snooze button? Are you more like Dr. Luana, where you recognize that it's thoughts that start this ping-ponging? Or are you more like me, where it's this feeling or emotion in your body that then triggers the spiral?

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Luana, let's go back to this story of you being in bed and invite us into bed with you this morning. And can you walk us through your thought spiral in detail?

Yeah, maybe I didn't bring the right outfit. The outfit makes a difference. She's so powerful. She's really not gonna like me. What if I say the wrong thing? And those thoughts would go really fast. The anxiety would shoot up, and then the covers would come over. And then by the time I got out of bed, my baseline anxiety would be so high that I'd be having trouble thinking. That trouble thinking would be interpreted as, oh, see, you do have a problem with anxiety. And now the avalanche. And so it's a ping pong. And it's so fast, and that's why that pause is so important.

So what do you tell your patients to do when they catch themselves in this ping pong death match with their anxious thoughts?

Whenever the anxiety happens, this is a trick that I can share with everybody that you can use and you can do it right now. How do you pause is the question, right? Take a piece of paper and literally write down your thoughts, link them to your emotions, link them to specific behavior. What do you wanna do?

Okay. Did you get that, everyone? When the thoughts start to spiral in you or someone that you love and you feel that anxiety avalanche that Dr. Luana just described coming on, number one, you need to create a pause. And here's one way you can do it. Take out a piece of paper and write the thought, write the emotion that you feel, and write the behavior that it is triggering. And in Dr. Luana's example, the thought is, Mel's not going to like me. And then that made her feel nervous, and then that feeling makes her want to pull the covers over her head. Why does this technique work, Dr. Luana?

This is why. What we know scientifically is that writing activates the prefrontal cortex. The prefrontal cortex, the part that helps us organize, execute, right? It's the center of the brain. That's the critical part of the brain. It is always competing for energy with our amygdala, the fight, flight, or freeze part of the brain. So one, when one is on, the other one tends to quiet down. So if you're in your anxious brain, get out of there by writing your thoughts, emotions, and behavior cycle. Just that little trick alone, I've seen hundreds of patients stop their anxiety cycle and that avalanche by creating that pause.

Oh my gosh, that makes so much sense. You know what? This also explains why my 5-second rule is so effective with anxiety spirals, Dr. Luana. Because when you count backwards, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, what you do is you interrupt that death match in your mind. And the 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, it creates a pause. And it's in that pause that you can then choose what you think or do next. And I wanna make sure that every one of you listening really gets what Dr. Luana is talking about. And so, Dr. Luana, I'd like to do a second example. Let's walk through the example that we talked about earlier of being afraid to go into work. Okay?

Okay.

So the situation is that maybe you're afraid you're going to have another anxiety attack, or maybe you got some big sales meeting and you're afraid that you're going to screw it up. And so you start to have this feeling where you're worried and nervous, and then you start to tell yourself, I don't think I can do this. I don't wanna go in. And you're now in this avalanche of avoidance that we've been talking about. So what do you do? In fact, why don't we do this? Let's role play this scenario. I'll be the person who's nervous about going into work and you can be my therapist, okay?

So a couple things. A lot of our anxiety is fed through what we're saying to ourselves, right? We started to have heart pounding and we've been talking about heart pounding. If I came home from a jog and my heart was pounding, I'd be like, okay, Okay. But if I'm sitting here getting ready to work and my heart pounds, your brain wants to make sense of it. So then it starts to create a narrative about the heart pound, but it's just a heart pound. That's all it is.

True.

So we pause. The first one, I would write down the specific thoughts, right?

Okay.

Okay. I'm gonna mess up the sales meeting. All right. I'm gonna, I'm gonna eff it up. That's what I'm gonna do. Okay. Once we pause, then we wanna be able to ask questions of our thoughts. Right? Let's interrogate. Let's become lawyers together.

Okay.

What is the evidence that you have right now that you're gonna mess it up?

I've messed it up before.

Okay. How many times have you messed it up now?

Twice.

Twice. How many presentations have you given to this team?

100.

100. Okay. So based on that, what's the probability that you're gonna mess it up?

2%.

2%. Okay. So maybe you are gonna mess it up. There's 2% chance. Um, if you mess it up, what is the worst that will happen?

What's your worst-case scenario? I'll be embarrassed.

Have you been embarrassed before?

Yes.

Have you been able to tolerate being embarrassed?

Yeah.

It sort of sucks. Yeah, it sucks. So the worst-case scenario is you're going to be embarrassed. There's 2% chance.

What if they fire me?

When was the last time they fired you?

They haven't fired me. I'm still employed.

Oh, really? That's amazing. So maybe they'll fire you, but sounds like the probability is small as well. Now, has anybody in this company ever been fired on the spot? Like, whoop, you messed up, you embarrassed, fired?

Uh, well, they've laid people off, but I don't think— not that I know of.

It sounds to me like your brain is basically saying, I'm going to be embarrassed, and then they're going to fire me on the spot, and I'm going to be humiliated, and I'm going to be in the corner all alone.

Yes, which makes me want to avoid it.

Of course it does. I would too. I mean, it feels awful to do that. But what is the probability really, Mel, that all those events are going to happen in that sequence?

What's the difference? Very, very small.

So what can you say to yourself based on your performance in the past that might change that narrative in your brain right now? Whew.

This is harder to do than it sounds because even though this is just you and me roleplaying, I can see that you're trying to get me to look at the situation objectively and to use my intellect But when you're super emotional or nervous, it's really hard to reason with someone when they're like that. So yeah, I can say that objectively speaking, I've been nervous before and I've shown up and I've done a presentation.

And when you say that to yourself, how does it feel?

Like I don't believe it.

Yeah, absolutely.

Because that anxiety, you know, has that grip on you.

And when we just start to change our perspective, shift our thinking.

Yeah.

We don't believe right away because there's so much history of the anxiety-driven thoughts. So, I don't need you to believe it. What I need you to do is be able to say that to yourself over and over again. And I need you to show up, man. I need you to approach.

You know what I love about this? I love that you said, I don't have to believe it.

You don't have— because it's impossible to. Your brain is anxious, and everybody thinks CBT, we are trying to just force people to have positive thoughts. That does not work. Let me say that again. Positive thoughts alone does not work. We have to reframe, we have to rewire our brain, and it takes time to rewire our brain. It can't be like overnight, but it's the first step towards a better life, right? I mean, if we talk to our best friends the way we talk to ourselves, let me be clear, we'd have no friends.

That's so true. That is so true. Is approach always the answer when it comes to things that you're avoiding?

So your family member doesn't want to go to work. Approach to me has been always the answer, because if I stop and think, my brain can be really an asshole sometimes.

Your brain isn't the only brain that can be a real asshole, Dr. Luana, right? Everybody, is your brain an asshole sometimes? I know, same. Dr. Luana, when we prepared for this episode with you, I gathered a bunch of questions from listeners, and a lot of our listeners asked very similar questions. And this one from Charmaine really covers a lot of the topics that people asked about. So let's roll this question from Charmaine. I want more peace, more love, more compassion, more passion, more connection, more joy, less struggle, less stuff, less complications, less stress, less anxiety. And I don't just want it for myself, but for every woman. This shit is real. I see it in to you in this human experience. My question is, why? Why does this feel like a struggle? Thank you, Mel, for being brave enough to do this work.

I love you. I love Charmaine's question. Charmaine, this is the deal. This question is what I call the magical one. Everyone magically wants more happiness, a better life, less stress. We all want it. So why, why do we stuck? It's because we avoid it, Charmaine. What are the things in your life right now that you're not taking control? Because the struggle is there because we are not taking action. Oh, right. We know scientifically, Mel, that if we act in line with our values, we actually have less stress, less anxiety, we have better quality of life. And so, Charmaine, I'm asking you, What are the actions you can take towards those things that matter the most that would stop this avoidance? But little approaches towards the things that matter the most can start to really change our lives. And that's how we get more happiness. That's how we feel better.

I'm curious, if somebody's struggling, is that a sign that avoidance is everywhere?

Yes. And this is why I've never met anyone in my life, professionally and personally, that avoidance is not behind their struggle, right? I've never met— like, in my moments that I myself am having the most hardest time, it's because I'm avoiding.

What are the top things that your patients come in and are struggling with, and how does that connect with avoidance?

So Mary came in because she was in a job that she hated.

Yep.

She put on 100 pounds in that job, 100 pounds, but kept doing it because her brain said, well, at least I have an income.

Yes.

And she was facing that. She just wouldn't face that reality that she hated that job. You know, a CEO of a Fortune 500 company I worked with avoided dating. His superpower in his job, and if you met him, this, you're like, this guy can get anybody that he wants. He was terrified of dating and women. Now he's 45, super successful, No relationships, no meaningful relationships. Joanna avoided asking for a raise. She's a single mother, 3 kids. That raise— she's in the same job for 10 years. People getting promotions, she's not getting those promotions. And she just was so terrified that she wasn't good enough. She hadn't done enough. She couldn't ask for a raise. She told me, you know, if I was really good, they would have given me a raise. I was like, well, that's not how it works. I don't think it works that way.

Sometimes it does.

Yes, sometimes, but, but it's in the corporate world, sometimes he doesn't.

Those are great examples. And so as their therapist and practicing CBT therapy, are you then coaching them through the approach method?

So the first thing we really do is we identify their avoidance. I just had a patient make a list of everything she's avoiding. And she's like, I don't need to make a list. I'm like, I'd I would like to see that list because see, we lie to ourselves. So the first thing I do with every patient is let's identify all the domains in your life where you're avoiding. We need to figure out what you can tolerate that is comfortably uncomfortable. So for example, if what you want to do is leave the room immediately, can you stay for an extra 1 minute? Can you stay in the room and just observe the room for 30 seconds if a minute's too much? If you walk out of the room, can you commit to walking back to the room, staying for a minute, walking out of the room again, walk back in the room. Small doses, because see, in approach, we're rewiring the brain and teaching the brain that there is no lion in the room. And I would start increasing them, a minute, 3 minutes, 5 minutes. Put a timer in your watch. And one thing we didn't talk about, Mel, that I do want to add is there are moments in life that you need to avoid, like in the case of domestic violence, like my mom dealt with. Right? Poking the bear and trying to approach, sometimes it doesn't work. You have to be safe and get to a place where you then can figure out how to approach your life.

How do you know the difference? Like you said this thing about, I just don't like heights. How do you know the difference if you're actually avoiding something that you need to approach and face in your life versus you just don't like it or it's an issue of safety?

So the first one is robbing you from your best life. So one of— there's a price tag. That's how I think about this. There is a price tag with avoidance. And it's keeping you stuck, right? And sometimes the patient of mine was a different patient, was in a job that she really disliked. So she called me and just says, hey, Luana, I just want to check if I'm avoiding or not. And we had a conversation about this job. It wasn't going well. It was clear she's going to have to change jobs. I said, but why are you staying? And she says to me, I'm staying because if I stay 6 more months, I have this big bonus. I would just tolerate for 6 months. And then once I get the bonus, I would just find another job. I said, that's strategy. That's not avoidance. That's strategy. That's fantastic.

Yes.

Right. But she was so trained to think about avoidance. She's like, am I avoiding by staying? No, that's strategy. Sometimes you have to have strategy in life.

Well, it seems like avoidance is very reflexive versus a strategy which you can calmly, with emotional peace, rationally explain to somebody.

That is exactly it. That and everybody, if you, if you are true to yourself and you pause and you really look at what's in front of you, you're gonna be able to smell avoidance pretty quickly.

Wow. How do you begin this process?

The first step is really pausing. Give yourself 5 minutes, sit down, and think about the things that you want to do. So let's think about the dream life. What are the things you wanna do? And then ask yourself why you're not doing that. What are the things that are getting in the way? And you're gonna pretty quickly identify your avoidance. I'm not doing this because I'm afraid of heights. I'm not doing this because if I ask for a raise, they're gonna find out that I'm not good enough. I'm not going on this date because I don't think I'm pretty enough. That's the first step to changing. Wow.

What about parents or loved ones that have somebody that struggles with anxiety and a lot of avoidance? I made this mistake when our kids, Kendall and Oak in particular, had pretty significant episodes of anxiety. There was a 6-month period where each one of them slept on the floor of our bedroom. They'd wander down in the middle of the night. I wouldn't want to have to get out of bed and walk them back up and deal with the pushback and deal with the emotions. And then it morphed into me just making a little bed on the ground on my side of the bed. And the funny thing is, is they were smart enough to know, even when they were sleepwalking, that they don't go to Chris's side of the bed because he would get up. They just come to mine. And I could almost, in the middle of my sleep, sense that they were there. And I would just lift up the blanket in the middle of the night. And it lasted for 6 months. I made it worse.

Yeah. And you're not alone, Mel. I've heard this from so many mothers before because, see, you're exhausted already, right? And it makes it worse for you and the kid. Because we are teaching the opposite we wanna teach the kid, right?

What would you counsel a patient to do if they were in that cycle where a child's coming down, wanting to climb into bed? What do you do?

You have that conversation that this is your bed and that's where you sleep, and you cannot have any sleep-ups. The first day that you let them sleep there, even for 10 seconds, You're basically telling them that they can push the boundaries. And so in situations like this, it has to be zero tolerance. No, you don't come here. No, you don't come here.

You're right.

And pretty quickly, the truth is, if you do that, you extinguish the behavior.

It's true because they're uncomfortable being alone in their bed. And so you're teaching them to tolerate that discomfort.

That is. And that's a skill they need to learn for the rest of their life. It's called emotion regulation psychology. And you're teaching them basic emotion regulation by teaching them that it's okay to have that discomfort and that they're safe in their bed. And over time, it goes away.

And that's what we need to teach ourselves.

That's exactly what we need to teach ourselves.

Because all this avoidance is simply us not being able to tolerate as adults our own uncomfortable emotions.

That is all there is. We get uncomfortable and we run like we're a kid. We go run into our parents' room. And, and now we're stuck in a cycle.

Yeah, but instead of running to mom and dad's room, we're running to the vodka bottle or we're avoiding the email or we're holding on to the application.

And we're just building more pain, more fear, and more discomfort.

This is so fascinating. And what I love is that you're on a mission to teach this to people so that they can truly unlock all the incredible things that are available to all of us in life.

Within each one of us, there is a hidden amazing jewel. And if we take avoidance away, we can all be shining within our own domains of life. We all have a gift, right? Every single person has that gift inside of them right now. I want a world where people are bold in their own way, that they are approaching the things that matter the most. And, and can you imagine that world? Like, it just would be so much better.

I'm so glad. You didn't become a medical doctor, but you went into psychology, and that you do what you do. You are a gift. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for being with us. You are going to come back again and again and again. And you know what, based on the number of mess-ups I've had while I'm talking to you, Dr. Luana, I think the bloopers from this episode are going to be amazing. So thank you.

Thank you, Mel. This has been so delightful. You are amazing. For everybody listening, she's just the kindest person. Like, just the kindest person. So thank you.

Thank you, Dr. Luana Marquez. We love you. And I'm so happy you were here with us today. In case no one else tells you today, I wanted to say I love you and I believe in you. So stop avoiding all the shit you need to do and 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. Go do it. All right. I'll see you in a few days. Is this thing on, Jesse? It's on. Okay. Author, doctor, Dr. Luana Mar— Oh my God. Okay, let's try that again. You probably wouldn't be where you are today. Are you shitting me? I got that dry mouth thing going. So, Dr. Luana, are you kidding me? Hold on a second. Hold on a second. One more time. Let me take a sip of water. Oh, okay. Excuse me. Here we go. Oh, and one more thing. And no, this is not a blooper. This is the legal language. You know what the lawyers write and what I need to read to you. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. I'm just your friend. I am not a licensed therapist, and this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional. Got it? Good. I'll see you in the next episode.

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