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Welcome to the hbr ideacast from harvard business review. I'm alison beard. So let's start the show with a little communal laughter. I hope this clip from one of Hannibal Buress stand up shows does the trick.

It's weird working in an office cause I don't know how many times I'm supposed to say hello to people throughout the day. Cause I keep seeing the same people. I'm like, I saw you 45min. Should I say hello or should I just grumble under my breath? I don't know what to do. I just made my rule. If I say hello to you three times on Monday, I say nothing to you on Tuesday, you're helloed out for the week.

Okay, so yes, we're in the middle of a pandemic. Economic stagnation and in the US and some other places, social unrest. It does not feel like a moment for comedy. But sometimes humor is just what you need to get through the day, especially the work day. Our guests argue that teams and organizations would be much better off if they made more room for levity and laughter. They want people to get more comfortable sharing funny stories and even telling jokes. They say good humor can be learned and spread through the workplace, generating lots of positive effects. Jennifer Acker is a behavioral scientist and professor at Stanford University. And Naomi Bagdonis is an executive coach. They're also co authors of Humor. Seriously, why Humor is a Secret Weapon in Business and Life. Jennifer, Naomi, welcome to the show.

Thank you so much for having us.

It's so good to be here.

Okay, so you know that I have to start by asking one of you to tell me a joke.

Oh my gosh. This is Naomi. This is a physical joke. So I want you to lift your finger in the air, your. Your pointer finger and I want you to hold it up. And it's not a joke by the way. This is a really important mental exercise. So hold your finger in the air and as you hold it there, try and move it around in a circle. So you know you're almost tracing a circle on the ceiling that is over you and you want to do that faster and faster. You basically want to go as far as fast as you can with that hand.

Okay, I'm doing it.

Okay, now knock, knock.

Who's there?

Woo, woo.

Who?

That will get us ready and as excited as we need to be for this podcast.

Okay, now, I am not going to try to tell a joke because I'm not good at them. I do, you know, try to amuse people with stories, a little self deprecation. But as someone who doesn't consider myself particularly funny, it seems hard to bring humor into the workplace. Do we all need to be trying to do it?

Well, we actually surveyed thousands of people about what holds them back from using humor at work. And paramount was the belief that they are not funny. So, similar to you, many people believe that they are not funny. But there are a few things backwards about this belief. First is the assumption that humor is about being funny. So what's far more important than cracking jokes, you know, whoopee cushions, rubber chickens. It's about this mindset of cultivating joy, so shifting your mindset and looking for reasons to smile. And the second is this belief that a sense of humor is something you either have or you don't, and therefore, you're either funny or you're not. But everyone has a sense of humor, which is part of how you see your life, whether or not it's expressed. And so in reality, your sense of humor is like a muscle. Even if it feels weak right now, the more you flex it, the easier and more natural it becomes to make yourself and others laugh.

You also, in the book, delve into different styles or types of humor. So talk a little bit more about the different categories that you find among people.

That's right. So we've run studies that show people tend to fall into these four broad humor styles, into one of the four. So those four are the standup, the sweetheart, the sniper, and the magnetic. So first, the stand up. These folks are bold. They're natural entertainers. They're not afraid to cross a line or ruffle feathers to get a good laugh. And what's interesting about them is they often build intimacy through teasing. So we'll often hear these people say, if I'm making fun of you, it's actually a sign that I like you. Now, opposite the standup is the sweetheart. They are more subtle and what we call affiliative, which means that they use humor that uplifts people. So sweethearts are earnest, they're honest, and they also tend to be understated. So if you're around a sweetheart, you have to really listen closely for the humor. Third is the sniper. Snipers are, as you might expect from the name, edgy, sarcastic, nuanced, brilliant at the, you know, the one liner. They pick their moments really carefully. And unlike the standup, or the sweetheart. These people often joke to make a point rather than to lift people up or tear them down. They don't tend to seek the spotlight, but they also won't hesitate to cross a line for a laugh. And last is the magnet. So magnets are, as we call, affiliative and expressive. So these people are outgoing, this big personality who gets everyone laughing in a really positive way. And these people avoid controversial humor. So again, they're using humor that's bringing people together and they are really radiating charisma as they do.

It sounds like some of those would work much better in a workplace setting than others though.

Absolutely. There's risks associated with humor and certainly with certain styles. So for example, standups and snipers, they are at the greatest risk of offending or alienating. And sweethearts and snipers, they're often at the greatest risk of taking away their own power through self deprecation. And that means something, especially if you're looking, looking at gender differences through the lens of humor. For example, many male leaders who we study or talk to, they typically self categorize as standups and snipers at work, whereas some of our female leaders tend to self categorize as sweethearts and magnets, which means men in general are more at risk for offending, whereas a female leader is more at risk for over self deprecating and undermining their own power.

Hmm. So there are risks. But in your research you've also shown that there are really big benefits to being funny or using levity in the workplace. So talk about some of those findings.

Humor has enormous benefits for mental well being, for physical health, and even for your so your bottom line. So we think of humor as this thing that's sort of fun frivolous in what we do on the weekends. And by the way, the data supports this, that we're laughing far more on weekends than we are at work. And yet humor is incredibly powerful at work. So it is this sort of under invested, under leveraged asset. So a couple of things to consider when people use humor at work. And this doesn't even have to be good humor, it's just not inappropriate humor. The bar is very low. They are 23% more respected by their colleagues, and they're also seen as more competent and more confident. This is particularly powerful for leaders because we know that employees who rate their leaders as having a sense of humor, again, any sense of humor, report being 15% more satisfied and more engaged in their jobs. And they also rate those leaders as 23% more motivating. And more admired.

You know, even if you don't, you know, want to be motivating or admired or have engaged employees who have high performing teams, there is still a role for humor in your cold, cold heart. I'm not saying, Allison, that you have a cold heart, but it does translate into more negotiating power. So there are studies that have shown that adding a simple, mildly funny line to the end of a sales pitch like my final offer is X and I'll throw in my pet frog, that that increases customers willingness to pay by 18%. And remember, that was not even a funny line. That was a mildly innocuously funny line. Right.

And it's true for individuals and it's also true for teams. So there was a study of over 50 teams where researchers videotaped hour long team meetings and then they analyzed the supervisors ratings of team performance to get to that question. Is laughter actually translating to better performance for the team? And what they found was that the teams that had humor, the teams that laughed together during these one hour team meetings, demonstrated better communication and problem solving. And they performed better as a team, both during the meeting itself and also over time.

And you keep saying it doesn't have to be good humor, it doesn't have to be funny, it just has to be any sense of humor. But how does that work? Because everyone does have a different sense of humor and think different things are funny. So how do you figure out what's going to work and be effective and what's not?

Yes, the bar in business is so low. There's a large scale Gallup study that shows that when people are asked the very simple question, did you smile or laugh yesterday? The answer is yes at 16, 18 and 20. And it plummets. There's a gigantic humor cliff at around age 21, 22, 23. When people enter the workforce, people, you know, think they're serious and take themselves seriously and so basically stop bringing that sense of humanity and levity into work. But, and as a result, the bar is incredibly low. You are correct. It doesn't even have to be sophisticated. So one of the things we do both in our class as well as in our book, is we bring in sort of secrets or tips and techniques from comedians like Sarah Cooper and Seth Meyers and Julia Lewis Dreyfus, along with leaders who use humor in really strategic, thoughtful ways. And one of the tips that we talk about is simply observing. So humor isn't about inventing this perfect one liner from thin air. It's about noticing what's true in your life. So we have our students at the end of the day, just write down five observations from the day. Simple things like how excited your dog is at dinner time, or how you take a walk around the block every afternoon to break up the day. Or how you actually took a work call today in your underwear. As we all know.

Pajama pants maybe?

Underwear, yeah.

But then try using the rule of three by creating a simple list where the last item is a bit unexpected. Like I miss so many things about office life, going for spontaneous coffee chats, getting supportive eye contact from colleagues, and wearing pants. So it's simple and it's again, not hilarious, but it does the trick. It helps diffuse tension and helps. It basically closes the distance between two people.

I talked in the intro about this being a pretty stressful time. At the same time, it's been this weird shift for many of us in that we are showing sort of more of our personal lives and more of our authentic selves to our co workers because so many organizations are working virtually. So has our current moment sort of helped or hurt humor as an organizational imperative?

Both. The reality is that the more technology mediated our communication becomes, the harder it is to bring our humanity and sense of humor to work. But it also becomes more important. We see data that suggests that mental health is on the decline and a very, you know, significant way. And there's. You think of laughter, joint laughter, which basically has this, you know, significant neurological impact on us as being almost like a magic pill which is free. You know, when you show that teams actually just like laugh together before a meeting or even as we did before this exchange, they're more likely to self disclose, they're more likely to trust their teammates, more likely to be more creative and higher performing. So the question becomes, in this new remote work lifestyle that we're living in, how do you bring that humanity and sense of humor to work? One of our favorite stories is actually by a CEO Conor Deminyamin, who also teaches with us at Stanford. He's a serial entrepreneur and he recently joined a large nonprofit called Merit America as their co CEO. And his first all hand zoom call with his organization was scheduled amidst this incredibly challenging time for the world and a particularly divisive time in the US And Connor wanted to acknowledge the hardship of the moment while signaling care and reassurance. So during this call he was sharing his screen and when it was time for someone else to speak, he pretended to leave his screen share on accidentally as everyone held their breath watching him, he went into Google and typed in things. Inspirational CEOs say in hard times, and everyone lost it. It was this beautiful moment of levity and signaling vulnerability in this totally unexpected and funny way. But here's the thing. It was intentional and it wasn't hard and it was free. And it had this very real upside for Connor. Understanding how we can bring this sense of humanity and a sense of humor, even in the context in which we're all living right now, is incredibly important.

Yeah, a lot of us might think it's hard to come up with something as funny or creative as that example or to even tell a joke in a meeting. Are there some easier, less risky ways that sort of those of us working in middle management or on the front lines can use to be funny at work?

Yes. Allison, I'm going to play back a tip that you taught everyone today, and that is find something you genuinely find funny and share that with your team. So you kicked us off with that excerpt of a comedy that you found to be funny. And this is something that we're seeing executives do as well. They'll kick off meetings with a short clip or they'll include something in an email that's work appropriate and that's benign. But really that signals that they have a sense of humor, that they're open to humor and that it's welcome here. Another thing that we see people do, and particularly people who are in leadership roles and don't quite know how to use humor, deliver a one liner by themselves, is those people are already having fun with some of their colleagues behind closed doors, the coworkers that they work most closely with. They probably have some banter, they're probably having some light heartedness together. It can feel most natural to just bring some of that light heartedness to the forefront. So Dick Costello, the former CEO of Twitter, was great at doing this, where every all hands, he would invite one of his other leaders from Twitter to join him on stage and they would co present together. And part of that was the natural banter that would come out. So April Underwood was one person who he did this with. And April has a sharp and biting and wonderful sense of humor. So she would essentially stand on stage with Dick and she would just tear him down, like make fun of him and, you know, and they'd be laughing together on stage. And so it was a way for Dick to showcase a, you know, his own sense of humor and his ability to take a joke and B, this sense of humility that comes with, you know, with one of his co workers, you know, sort of poking fun at.

Him in One way, it seems like leaders have license to try humor a little bit more, be more casual about it, but at the same time, they also have to be really careful.

Right.

So how do the executives that you've observed or work with manage that balance?

Yeah, so one of the. There's a couple of ways to think about this. One, Some of the ways to bring about humor are basically risk free. So for example, if you think about a callback, a callback is where you create a laugh line or someone else in a meeting might actually cause others to laugh. So, for example, in one meeting, you can imagine someone saying, like, I'm a recovering cfo. Everyone laughs at this. It was a moderately funny joke. And then you kind of note it down. And then later in the meeting, when it's important to either diffuse tension or be able to kind of bond the group, you do a simple callback, which is anchoring on that first laugh line.

So.

So for example, you might say, I'm an aspiring recovering cfo. And so all you're doing is you're taking someone else's joke and you're basically reframing and repeating it. And you're doing two things when you do this. One, since everyone in the team laughed at the first time, you're basically making that original person who made everyone laugh feel good, feel valued, feel listened to, which creates a really inclusive sort of environment or culture. And then the second thing is, you know, they all laughed the first time, they're gonna laugh the second time. A second thing that we, we talk to our leaders and students about is simply having a, essentially a signature story bank, which is, you know, you have a set of stories or one liners that makes everyone laugh. And so you just write down those stories or those jokes that get that laugh. And then you have a little list. Ronald Reagan actually used to do this and kept a little list of his signature jokes or stories with him at all times.

When you're a leader, how do you know if people are laughing because it's funny or laughing because you're their boss?

That is a really important question, in part because laughter is tied to status. When we rise in rank in an organization, we tend to lose our calibration of what's funny because people are laughing. Not necessarily because we're funny, but because we're higher in status. And so one thing we talk about is leaders keeping a set of trusted testers. So if you are going to use humor publicly, you have to have people who are going to tell it to you straight and be really Honest about whether your humor is working or whether it's not working. And more broadly, we talk about these risks of humor. You know, they're the obvious risks, being overtly offensive or saying something that is off base. But there are these two ways of thinking about risk that people tend to miss. The first is risk by rank. So as you were saying, rising in ranks in an organization and not knowing why people are laughing. Another aspect of risk by rank, by the way, is as we rise in status in an organization, what we can joke about shifts. Because there's this concept in human in comedy that says never punch down. So you never want to make the target of your humor someone of lower status than you. And so of course, if you're the cfo, everyone in the organization is technically lower status. So you really have to look for other, other places for humor in addition to risks by rank. We talk about risks by style. So what people don't necessarily think about is their humor. Style is one key to understanding how they can mitigate risks at work. So as Jennifer shared earlier, sweethearts and magnets will tend to over self deprecate. So their risk profile looks very different than standups and snipers who are making jokes that could offend or alienate. So really getting under the hood and understanding what are your unique preferences and tendencies when it comes to humor can be a really good tactic for mitigating risk as well.

And what if you don't work in an organization or on a team that embraces this idea? You know, they're not light hearted. Maybe they're doing very serious business. You know, banking hospital comes to mind where you might work with colleagues that just feel like there's no room for this. How do you make a change?

Yeah, quit your job. No, I'm joking. Sometimes that is the answer though, right? Totally. John Gottman, who is an expert in relationship, in the science of relationships and creating meaningful long term partnerships, talks about bids. And so bids are the smallest unit of emotional offers that we make to people, right? They can be a small smile on Zoom. It can be a post it note that you leave on the fridge with a little heart on it. They're these little bids that we make to people to connect and really to play. And so one thing you can do is start making these little bids to your colleagues. Maybe it's a light hearted sign off on an email, yours with love and Lysol. Or maybe it's a light hearted video that you drop into an email exchange or into a zoom. But what we find broadly is that People want more joy at work. We know that we're not laughing at work like we're laughing outside of work. And by the way, one thing we haven't talked about is that humor changes our physiology. That when we laugh, our cortisol goes down so we feel less stressed, we release endorphins, dopamine, oxytocin. So it physically feels good to have humor with our colleagues at work. When we make these small bids of our colleagues, what we find is that more often than not, they'll accept those bids and they'll return them. So we talk about, if you don't have humor in your organization, start really small, start really incremental, and you'll start to find that people reply in kind.

So when can we start making pandemic and coup jokes?

Oh my God, immediately and never. So, I mean, humor is so context dependent. So in our course, we share a framework from Ann Libera, the director of Comedy Studies at the Second City. And that framework is truth, pain, and distance. That every bit of humor has some combination of these three things. And understanding those levers for yourself and for your audience will help you understand things like, is this too soon to joke about? Is this joke too stale? Has it been too long? Am I too far from this experience to truly understand the pain of it? And therefore, should I not be joking about it? What is the truth that I'm illuminating here? And is that the thing that I am really aiming to joke about? And so, so it's really quite nuanced. But understanding what is the truth that you're illuminating? What is the pain for whom and how great? And what is the distance from that pain? And this distance can be either temporal, how long has it been? Or it can be how close is your personal experience to it?

Well, thank you so much for being on the show. I hope that we can all bring more humor to the workplace, whether it's in public, person or virtually. Thanks so much for being on the show.

Thank you, Allison.

Thank you for having us.

That's Jennifer Aer and Naomi Bonus, co authors of Humor Seriously, why Humor is a Secret Weapon in Business and Life. This episode was produced by Mary Dew. We get technical help from Rob Eckart. Adam Buchholz is our audio product manager. Thanks for listening to the hbr ideacast. I'm alison beard.