How to Delegate

Welcome to HBR on leadership case studies and conversations with the world's top business and management experts, hand selected to help you unlock the best in those around you. Delegating is a skill that's often overlooked, and yet it's an essential part of leadership. Without it, how can you rise above the tactical grind and focus on strategic thinking? But delegating well is harder than it may seem. Today we bring you a conversation about how to get delegating right for everyone involved, with the help of leadership coach Deborah Grayson Riegel and Jasmine Lafleur, an aerospace engineer who's struggling with the awkward aspects of delegation. In this episode, you'll learn how to decide which tasks to delegate and how to handle the specific challenges that come with delegating to peers in your organization, not just direct reports. This episode originally aired on Women at work in April 2022 as part of a special series called the Essentials. Here it is.

You're listening to Women at Work from Harvard Business Review. Amy I'm Amy Gallo. To learn how to delegate in a way that delivers the results you were hoping for, we're bringing in a rocket scientist. No, not because delegating effectively is rocket science. Even Jasmine Lafleur, an aerospace engineer at Raytheon Technologies, finds assigning colleagues tasks to be tricky. So tricky that she doesn't always ask for the help she needs in both her day job and in running a nonprofit that teaches girls about engineering and business. But now she's ready to confront the difficult and awkward parts in order to delegate more and better.

I think delegation will definitely help me be more prepared and be able to focus on the things that I am best at and can have more deep work on.

These are the sorts of outcomes that make entrusting others with work hard worth doing for anyone, you and me included. Deborah Grayson Riegel coaches leaders on shifting their mindset and behaviors in order to delegate clearly, conscientiously and productively. She's here to talk us through practices that will not only ensure the work gets done, but also will leave you and the person you delegated to feeling good about the experience. Jasmine Deb, thanks so much for joining me on the show today.

Happy to be here.

Thanks for having me. Amy. I'm happy to be here as well. And nice to meet you, Deb.

You too.

So, Jasmine, I want to ask you, would you say delegation is something you do a lot of already, or is it something you're looking to do a lot more of?

I would say both. I would say for my nonprofit, delegation is Definitely important. Right now I have a co founder and part time staff. So going from one person doing all the work to it's about seven of us who are involved, hands on in a matter of three months has been a lot of delegation, I think about the apprentice program I've started where some college students who are studying engineering are now helping teach students about engineering entrepreneurship. So my co founder and I, we've been doing this framework that has been going, going very well and I really enjoy doing it. But in the same breath, as a founder, co founder, executive director, I think my time is well suited, you know, kind of working on the business instead of in the business, so to speak. So teaching college students to teach this curriculum has been very rewarding to see where they have those fresh eyes and they're providing feedback and showing me things that I didn't even think about when I, you know, started developing this framework. And I would say my role at rtx, I delegate to a lot of my peers. So that one is a little bit more sparse, but I intend to delegate more as I move up in my career.

Yeah. And just to clarify for our listeners, RTX is Raytheon Technologies. You can use that acronym now that we clarified it, but just want to make sure everyone knows what we're talking about.

Thank you. Yes. Raytheon Technologies business unit, Collins Aerospace.

Yeah. And Deb, what do you hear in what Jasmine's saying about the sort of importance of delegation as well as the challenges that many of us face?

So I'm hearing Jasmine hit the nail on the head as she delegates, she gets to lighten her workload, she gets to cross things off her to do list. She's going to challenge herself, improve and increase her value to the organization. And there's benefits to the team as well. And one of the things, Jasmine, that I heard you say that I want to at some point make sure we talk a little bit more about is delegating to your peers. Right. We often think about delegating as something we do to direct reports. And I'm hearing that you're in a situation where you're delegating to colleagues, which certainly has some benefits. Right. It makes them feel more trusted or more respected. They have the opportunity to learn more skills, collaborate more. You maybe might even get a day off every once in a while if you have people who know how to do what you know how to do. So it sounds like Jasmine is really focused on the benefits, not just to herself, but to the team and the organization. And I really like the idea of delegating to peers.

Yeah. The idea that delegation isn't just good for you, I think is critically important. And I actually want to bring in some research that's been done about delegation in women, specifically, that women tend to delegate less.

They.

They also tend to feel more anxiety and guilt about doing so, and that's partly because they see it as a dominant thing to do. The researchers who did these studies, actually, the advice they suggest is to do exactly what you were just saying, Deb, which is to focus on the benefits of delegating, not just for yourself, but for others, how it helps them learn, how it helps them grow. And I think that's something we lose sight of. I mean, listening to both of you talk so far, I'm already thinking about the things on my to do list. I'm like, who can do that? Who can do that? That and how it benefits me? But I think the other way of viewing delegation of like, well, who actually could learn from this task? Who could develop their skills as a result of doing this task? It's just a very different take and would allow for that delegation to peers in a way that wouldn't feel necessarily uncomfortable or inappropriate.

And I'm also thinking about the research that shows that when women get feedback from all genders, when women get feedback, it tends to be about her teamwork and collaboration and less about her leadership. And so I want to be mindful that if we are encouraging anyone to delegate more, that we don't just think about it as a teamwork and collaboration skill. We think about it as a leadership skill as well.

Jasmine, I see you nodding. Does that resonate with you?

It does resonate with me. I like feedback, so I feel like I don't get enough of it. And when I do get it, it does feel like sometimes it's based around that collaboration or maybe just being organized, but not necessarily the leadership aspects that I'm showcasing.

And, Deb, can you articulate exactly how delegation is a leadership skill?

Well, in order for you to be a leader, you need to be thinking more strategically and less tactically, you need to enable other people to grow, develop, and take things on, rather than you having your hands in every single thing. So in order for you to become more visionary and strategic and coach and guide other people to do the work so that you can be working on other things. You can't still be doing everything yourself.

Mm. So we know delegation is a critical leadership skill. We know it benefits not just you, but other people. Let's get into how you actually do It. So, Deb, what steps do you recommend we take to decide whether or not to delegate a task, a decision, a responsibility?

There are some common misconceptions I think people have about what to delegate. And I think people think that they should delegate things that are really boring, things that are really small, so that you can follow up really quickly. And I want people to think more broadly about what they can and should be delegating. So as you think about your own workload, you want to think about things that might feel routine for you, but may not feel routine for somebody that you're trying to develop. You might want to think about something that has been fun for you, and it's time to share the fun with somebody else who might think it's fun. You might want to think about tasks that other people can clearly do better than you can, tasks that eat up your time, tasks that will develop other people so that you can move on to other things and so that they can move on to other things are really good things to think about in terms of delegating. And of course, there are some things that you just shouldn't delegate. And one example would be if somebody delegated something specifically to you because they want you to do it. Don't give that to somebody else.

Don't pass the hot potato.

Don't pass the hot potato. And the last thing that I would say when I coach leaders on delegation and teach workshops on it, the number one thing that people go, oh, that's something that I'm doing that now I realize I shouldn't doing, is that people delegate poorly defined tasks to other people where they're not clear the expectation, they're not clear the goal, they're not clear what success would look like, and they pass that on. And as you can imagine, it's like a giant game of telephone. It just leads to a mess.

Yeah, I want to get more into that in a moment. But there was something that came to mind also that I realized would be worthy of delegating, which is something you've done for a long time and maybe someone with fresh eyes could do a little differently.

Yeah, absolutely. And I'll just share that. Part of delegating is expanding your comfort level and definition of what can do it means. So if your definition of can do it means they can do it exactly the way I can do it and have always done it, that's a pretty small pool of people that I could delegate to. I mean, sometimes it's, you know, n equals zero. But if I'm willing to Expand my comfort level and understanding of what can means. I have a lot more options and it brings a lot more diversity of perspective, as you said.

Yeah.

So Jasmine, as you're listening to Deb, what tasks are coming to mind? Like what are you thinking about wanting to delegate?

Yeah. So in my day job, I'm starting a new project where I'm going to be helping create some virtual interactive demos for our products. So I'm coming up with a, almost like a one pager of what our technology does, the benefits of it, who it serves, and being able to delegate that to our younger engineers, early careers to do that for all of our projects. So I'm basically starting off with one of our key product. So it might be a very specific piece that I am creating a story around, but being able to delegate that to someone to continue that work is something I'm looking forward to doing.

Yeah, Deb, is that something you recommend that you either do a piece of the work or do an example of the work before you delegate it? Like what sort of prep do you need to do before a task is actually ready to pass off?

Yes, you do want to think about how are they going to learn what it is that I'm looking for. So some steps might include being really clear about what it is you are expecting in terms of the outcome. You might even provide an example of what a successful outcome can look like. This is also the place to distinguish whether it is a certain outcome or a range of acceptable outcomes that you're looking for. You want to get really clear whether it has to look exactly like this or once we've agreed on what success looks like. There's a range of possibilities you certainly want. In addition to providing examples of what it would look like when done well, you want to clarify how the task you're delegating fits into the big picture. And I think that's a thing that a lot of people miss is putting it in the context of why this matters so that even. Jasmine, I heard you say that I'm delegating a part of something that's totally fine. And we also want to communicate how that part fits into the whole so that people can get that big picture. You want to talk about how you're going to evaluate progress, process and outcomes. So those are the sort of things that can really help set somebody up for success.

You made me think of setting parameters. So in engineering, you know, you set up, you want your length to look like this, width, so on and so forth. You made me think of how to Set up parameters to set someone up for success. Do you think managers should be creating that, you know, almost like a checklist, parameters, so to speak, before they pass on a project to someone they're delegating to?

What strikes me is that if you do that, you reduce the risk of what we call micromanaging. Right. So nobody wants to be a micromanager, that is for sure.

And yet no one wants to be micromanaged.

Thank you for offering a fair and balanced perspective. Nobody wants to be the micromanager and nobody wants to. To be micromanaged. And yet I think we misunderstand what we mean by micromanaging. Right. So if there is somebody who has never done something before, has limited knowledge and limited experience, you showing them what success looks like and walking them through the process is managing that's not micromanaging. To do anything other than that would be under leading them. Right. So, Jasmine, it's your first day on a particular task and I go, great, well, my door's open. Let me know if you have any questions. That's the opposite of micromanaging. That's under leading. So I think what you're describing, Jasmine, in terms of a checklist is absolutely something that can set people up for success so that they don't micromanage and aren't micromanaged.

Yeah. Well, I like the way you put the engineer take on it, Jasmine, that it's these parameters. Right. It's the what, who, when, why, and where. Right. Thinking that through very clearly, though, I have to say, I think most people want to delegate because they have way too much to do themselves. And yet what we're describing is a very time intensive prep to sort of pass this task.

Right.

Part of me wishes delegation was as easy as walking past someone's desk hopping on a zoom. Can you do this task? Great, thanks. And then just get off? That's sort of the time crunch most of us are under.

Yeah. Because I would say I spend a lot of time crafting that parameter message of whatever I'm delegating to. And sometimes I feel like I'm delaying them from doing the work because I'm putting a lot of effort into. Okay, let me make sure I told them everything.

Yeah. How do you know you're spending too much time preparing to delegate versus the right amount of time?

Deb, what do you think most people's instinct would be to say this is taking too much time? Because if they believe that it's taking too much time, they won't do it and they won't have to do it. So I think we actually want to challenge our confirmation bias that this is taking more time and it will just be easier and faster for me to do it myself, it's going to be more likely that it is taking the right amount of time, which is longer than it feels comfortable. I would say that if every single thing you are delegating takes a significant amount of time, then you are probably not doing it right. So I often think about tasks for which I have a very hard opinion. This is exactly what it needs to look like and how it needs to be done. Tasks for which I have a soft opinion. I've got some ideas of what I think success would look like and I'm really open to yours. And then tasks around which I have no opinion, I don't know how to do this. I don't want to do it. You do take it on. And if for all three of those tasks, I'm spending hours and hours and there's something wrong in my process, I like that.

You made me think about. I did the Jenny Blake assignment on how to decide what tasks to delegate and she has this really great framework where it's six T's. So the six T's are tiny. If it's something super small, you don't think about it. Tedious, you know, something that you don't necessarily want to do, but it has to get done. Time consuming, you know, obviously time consuming. Teachable, teachable. You can pass it on. And there might be some gate checks you want to do terrible at, meaning you're not the expert. This is not what you do. And in time sensitive, it's critical, it's hot. You got to get it done. So you made me think about the teachable tasks that I'm giving to the apprentices or, you know, just where it's more of me doing a gate check of what they've created versus me having a hard line of this is what it must look like.

Yeah, I'm thinking about this. There was a task I have done at HBR for years and years, which is to write our management tip of the day. And I just assumed no one else wanted to do this because no one ever raised their hand. And then as soon as we sort of put it out to a few other people, there were lots of people who were like, that would be super helpful to learn how to condense long form articles into short pieces of advice. It was like, oh, right. As soon as I thought of it as, like, not this tedious thing, because it became tedious. To me, since I had done it for so long, but something that actually would allow someone to exercise a really specific skill, it became teachable rather than tedious.

Amy, I want to highlight something you said, if I may, which is the idea of waiting for people to put up their hands, right. Which strikes me as culturally nuanced.

Right.

So I am a third generation New Yorker. If I want something, I'm going to tell you to your face. There will be no mistaking that I want it right or I want to do it. And as somebody who has worked all over the world, volunteering for assignments looks very different in different cultures. And I think if we are going to become better delegators, especially in a global marketplace and global business place, we may need to expand our understanding of what volunteering for a task might look like.

Yeah, well, and I want to go back to what you were saying earlier about delegating to peers, because this is my role at hbr. I don't manage anyone. I don't have anyone who's a natural person to delegate to. It would always be delegating to peers. And I think that's why I was waiting for the volunteer. I assumed everyone knew I that I was sort of burnt out on doing this, but no one had any. I had never even articulated that. So can you talk a little bit about the delegating to peers versus direct reports?

So I want to reinforce the point that many people don't think they can or should delegate to peers, right. Unless there's an emergency and then it's all hands on. And there are many individual contributors and organizations who need to get some things off their plate and don't have somebody to formally and officially hand it to. So I think recognizing that delegation is a request, not a command, especially with peers, right? So the definition of a request is something to which somebody can say yes, no, or make a counteroffer, Right. I can't take this thing off your plate. I. But I'd be happy to do that thing and to really be explicit that this is a request around something to look for opportunities that you think people might be interested in, might want to learn, might help them get exposure to something or someone that you have had exposure to that they may not. So like selling anything else, you may want to sell the benefits of it to them and then to carry through the delegation to a peer. Amy, I come back to the Harvard Business Review article that you wrote about compassion and accountability, right? Not being in conflict, you had a much more eloquent way of putting that. But that when you are delegating to a peer, you definitely want to demonstrate compassion for what may be on their workload. And once they've said yes, you got to hold them accountable for results in the same way you might to a direct report.

Right. Jasmine, you've had experience doing this. What works best for you when you're delegating to a peer?

I think it's gone well when it's something that they're the expert at. I work with a lot of technical specialists, so most of the time, when I'm delegating to that type of peer, it really only makes sense for it to be them. But in the same breath, with me not being their manager, sometimes it is about, you know, they already have a workload on their plate, and then they need to talk to their manager if this is something else they can take on. So then it's almost this, like, limbo of, oh, should I have asked? Or is this that important? And, you know, am I not the priority? Because it's me as a peer asking versus me as your manager? So I've seen instances like that, but I wouldn't say that I've had, like, a negative one.

It's just been a little more murky, the response.

Yeah. And I would say, when it comes to delegation, and I know. I know you talked about this a little bit in the beginning about, like, you know, women delegating, I try to ask in a way that is the least taxing. So I think that goes back to me. I'm preparing, you know, so much on my end, and I'm spending a lot of time, like, trying to do this work that is verging into, okay, now I need an expert. And then they probably only need to, like, vet or do 10% of what that actual project is. But I feel like I want to almost not ask anybody anything. So when I ask, it's usually like a small piece in the workplace.

Mm.

Jasmine, I'm hearing you align really nicely with the research that we talked about a little bit earlier. The idea of that when women delegate, they tend to delegate less, and when they do it, they do it with more guilt and anxiety associated with it. And that makes a lot of sense that you wouldn't want to burden someone. And I think that shifting the mindset from, number one, believing that you're issuing a command versus making a request. Right. If you're making a request, somebody can say yes, no, or make a counteroffer. And number two is if you can genuinely frame it in terms of some benefits for Them. This is something you're interested in. This is something you may want to learn as you get to the next level. This is going to give you some visibility that you haven't had before, and I'd love for you to take advantage of that. If you can do that from a genuine place, you're actually being of service. Service to somebody rather than asking for a favor.

Yeah. What do you do about the murky response of like, oh, I'll have to check with my manager? Jasmine is describing that feeling of like, oh, should I have asked now? I don't know what's going to happen. How do you manage that more clearly, Deb?

Well, there's the fact and then the story that we make up in our heads. Right. So the fact may be somebody said, I need to ask my manager. The story we make up is now they're mad at me for asking them. I've put them in a difficult place. I should have just kept it myself, separate out the fact from the story. I don't know about you, but I've never made up a happy story. Right. In the absence of information, I never made up a. Oh, my goodness. They just. They're so excited. They don't even know how to tell me. And so if this is somebody with whom you have a good relationship and a clear communication and a history of feedback, you might just point it out to them. Hey, I noticed that when I asked you if you could take this on, you said, well, now I have to ask my manager. Is that something that you're comfortable doing, asking your manager, or is it something else? I'd really like to hear that. So it's a little bit of calling them on it, but not in a combative way. In a way that demonstrates you're noticing that they had a reaction that you weren't actually clear about what it meant.

Yeah. Could you imagine doing that, Jasmine?

I can imagine it. I have done it. But I don't know if I received a positive response.

What response did you receive?

Well, I like to think of myself as a firm but fair person, or let's kind of get straight to the issue. And I don't know if it's surprising when I'm the person saying, like, hey, can you tell me more about your reaction? Or you mentioned you need to talk to your manager, but is there something else that's coming up for you? I think that's something that isn't typically done in the workplace or at least where I work, where people are ready to answer those type of questions.

Truthfully so do they not answer them or do you? Like, how?

Like, well, I'll see or, no, I'll just talk to them. Like, it's almost like I don't get that answer outside of I'll just talk to my manager.

Yeah.

This also kind of goes back to me saying, I don't think I get enough feedback for me to really understand how I'm being viewed or the perspective of my interactions with my peers and even my leaders.

Yeah.

So I don't mind almost like hand holding to get the delegation done. In terms of, should I email your manager and CCU and maybe we can talk about it there? Should I set up a meeting with him? Like, I'm almost willing to do that extra work just to make sure that you can get the task done, but I don't think that that's what I should be doing.

Why not?

I think it feels like I'm doing so much just to have you help me, and you're not really showing that you're willing to do it without me overextending myself.

Right.

It's like, I'll ask my manager. But, you know, back to what you said, Deborah, did you or are you going to?

Yeah. When someone's dragging their feet on a task, I mean, this could be a peer, like the situation with Jasmine. This could be a direct report. How do you know how hard you should push versus just take it back or not ask next time. Deb, what do you think?

I think dragging your feet is an interpretation that we may want to define a little clearer. Right. So dragging your feet could look like somebody sulking. Right. While doing it. Right. It could be tone of voice, facial expressions. Dragging your feet could also look like missing deadlines. Right. So we want to be really clear about what behavior we're observing that we're interpreting as dragging their feet. And also, and this is both the coach in me and the mom in me that says, I see people drag their feet. So we'll take it back. Right. So we want to be mindful about positively reinforcing a negative behavior. If I know that every time I sulk, you're going to be like, fine, I'll do it. Guess what? I'm going to keep doing Sulking. Right. And so this is a place where that feedback culture is really important to say, I'm noticing you've missed a couple of deadlines. I'm noticing that you said, yes, you would do it. And then you made a face after. I'm curious what's going on there. And that really does require that feedback is a regular part of your relationship and certainly a part of delegating.

Yeah. You mentioned being a mom, and I will tell you, with a teenager, this is a daily exercise because I've learned you need to get out the door right now. Doesn't work as well as what do you need from me right now to get out the door? Right. And I think the positive reframing of, I'm here to help you, but you really need to leave right now or you're going to miss the bus. And I do think we can apply that to work of. You know, I think about something I delegated that someone was late on for, like, four weeks in a row. And I had to say, okay, what can we do to help you make sure you can do it on time as opposed to taking it back, which, honestly is what I wanted to do because I was like, this will just be easier if I just do it. But trying to sort of problem solve and being open to hearing why it was taking so much time. Have you tried something like that, Jasmine? Like. Of like, what do you need from me to get this done?

Yes, exactly. That phrasing. What do you need from me? What can I help you do to make sure that we're successful with this project? A lot of times when I ask that, I don't get a response that is tangible. It's more like, oh, I'll let you know.

Well, in the cases where they say, oh, yeah, I'll let you know, I don't know. Deb, do you have a different phrasing you would use that would encourage a more accountable response?

Well, I'm going to push back at the overuse of the word we. So this is something that I hear all the time. What do we need to do to get this done? When could we expect this? Right. When will we see the next step? No, right. As soon as it's we. And we say that because it's friendly, it feels collaborative, it's more teamwork. Right. There's no I in team, but one person is accountable. And so I'm going to invite people who feel like perhaps they're a little too soft when it comes to delegating to get rid of the word we, unless the word we is absolutely what you mean. So when will you have this done? When will you let me know? Progress? When will you tell me the next step really points the spotlight on who is getting this done?

I like that. Yeah. Thank you for that because I said it, but you made me think of, like, a racy chart. R, A C, I, responsible, accountable, consultant, informed. Usually the A means that person is accountable for getting the work done. And there's usually only one person that is an A on the team. You might have a few Rs, you might have a few Cs, a few eyes, but usually it's only one person on the team that's an A, the accountable person. So I feel like what you said fits that very well in terms of what does that person need? What do they have to do? What does that accountable person need to do to get it done?

I want to continue on this language question because, like, I have worked with an executive assistant around my speaking and consulting business. Her job is to support me. My job is to delegate things to her. And I still struggle with the right language to introduce new tasks. So I need you to feel somehow like, too assertive and. Or even abrasive. But can you do this thing? Is disingenuous. Because she needs to do the thing. I'm not actually asking her can she. I'm telling her she has to. Deb, any advice about, like, the right language to introduce a task like that.

In your case, Amy, I might even ask her, when I share a task with you, what language makes it clear, feel, you know, feel okay to you, it strikes you as respectful. So I would always go to the source. What I might do is to say, here's a task that's coming up. Here's why it's important. So remember to put it in the context and to say, I will want your help on this. When is a good time for us to talk about it in more detail, Schedule something like that. But I kind of just put it on the table and then talk a little bit about timing and deliverables for having the delegation conversation.

I like the idea of asking her because I have a feeling she would say, well, just tell me what I have to do. She probably has impatience with the hemming and hawing I do in the language, but that's just a hunch. And why not just ask her? Yeah, right.

Absolutely, Deb.

So you've delegated. What questions do you ask to assess whether they're actually ready to go off and do the thing that they actually understand, the expectations, all of that.

I'm a big fan of asking them to sum up what they heard me say. Quite often when people delegate, the delegate tour is the one who sums it up. So I just want to be clear, Jasmine, you're going to do this by this date, and here's when our milestones are going to be. Well, all that means is that I, as the delegator knows it doesn't tell me anything about what Jasmine might understand. Right. So ask the other person to sum up what they're hearing. If it's appropriate, ask them to put it in an email so that you can capture their understanding of it. And when I went to coaching school, we learned three questions that you ask at the end of coaching engagement, which is, what are you going to do next by when and how will you let me know? Or when should we check in about it? And I think when you are delegating to somebody who is new to a task, you would tell them rather than answer that. So here's what I need you to do next, by when, and here's what I want to check in about it. As you are delegating things where people actually feel more educated and empowered, you would want to shift from answering those yourself to asking them.

Jasmine, what do you do when you're assigning a task?

I'm a big proponent of using, you know, project management tools like click up and Trello and just seeing cards move from to do and work complete. So when I see that my virtual assistant is complete with a task or has some questions, sometimes she'll just add some notes into our ClickUp of, okay, I've done this, but can you clarify this? Do you think that's effective when it comes to. To working with a virtual assistant in terms of like, tools like, as your place of conversation or clarification?

I think so. I mean, I think that the idea of right now I'm like, okay, I need to start a Trello board. Because I do think that because there's so many conversations where I'm like, where does that thing stand? What happened with that? Where I'm following up? And if it was visible to me in some way, it would eliminate the need for us to go back and forth. And I do get concerned that my constant questioning signals a lack of trust. And so if I could actually see it, then I wouldn't have to convey that I'm doubting that she did it, even though I'm really just curious whether she has. I don't know. What do you think, Deb?

I think if you have tools that work for both of you, have at it.

Mm, yeah, let's talk about that tracking for a moment because we're talking about the wanting to be hands off to let someone sort of have the room to do what they need to do without being micromanaging. And it will depend on the task, of course. But once you've actually entrusted someone with the task, how do you assess how involved you need to be?

I think at the beginning, when somebody is new to a task, you should be involved.

Right.

If they are just learning how to do it, it is not micromanaging them for you to be involved. It would be under leading them for you not to be involved. At a certain point, there is going to be a shift in the ownership or the responsibility of it. And in my mind, that's a conversation right up until now. I've been checking all along the way. At this point, I think you've demonstrated that you know how to do this. I'd like you to now take these steps. Steps without me and then let's plan to check in for the next part. So I think it's a continuum. I often think about it in terms of when my kids were learning to drive. At a certain point I needed to stop grabbing the wheel. I don't know that that will actually ever happen, but I wasn't going to stop grabbing the wheel for as long as they actually didn't know what to do or how to do this. Right. So having a conversation based on your observation of what their skill level is, what their knowledge is and their motivation to do it as well. So they may be really skilled, but if they hate doing it, you can be assured that they will drag their feet. In that case, they might need a little cheerleading as opposed to instruction.

So, Deborah, when it comes to taking that wheel, how do you do that in a way that doesn't make that person feel like they're not doing it right?

Couple thoughts. Number one is to say exactly that. Actually communicate your intentions. There may be parts of this project where I need to put my hands back on the wheel. Even though I said you're the driver, when that happens, I will let you know and I will explain why. And of course, if you're in a crisis, you don't have to let them know and you don't have to explain why that can come after. Right. You also want to think about timing, that there may just be things where the risk is too high and. And you just need to take it back. And you may also wanna have after action reviews about how a process went. Do you think that I gave you enough responsibility earlier on? Do you think I let you go too long without me stepping in? This is again, one of the reasons why having a culture of feedback with anybody that you're delegating to is really important.

Yeah. Is that helpful, Jasmine?

That's very helpful.

Yeah. Deb, what if you've delegated something to someone and the person just isn't doing a good enough job? Perhaps you could have delegated the work better in the first place, or you tried to reset and it didn't actually work. How can you take the task back without damaging their morale or their confidence?

There's the damage of somebody's confidence or morale that comes with doing something poorly. And there's the damage of somebody's confidence and morale that comes with you taking something back. Right. So good point. So I think that this is where is there going to be less harm done? And in many cases, less harm is done by actually taking the task back and getting it done. Right. And it's worth having a conversation. So to talk about. Look, I. I recognize that I delegated something to you. It didn't turn out the way either of us hoped, and I took it back. I imagine that that had an impact on you, and I want to hear about that. Let me start by sharing my contribution of how I actually might not have set you off on the right foot. I think that's what I did. Would you share with me a little bit about how you think you might have contributed to this not turning out the way either of us had hoped? So get rid of fault, get rid of blame, get rid of shame. And talk about contributions, because chances are you both had some.

Yeah. When you first used the word contribution, I thought you were going to say talk to them about what they did contribute, even if it wasn't completely filling the task. Right. Like, you got me the first step there. I'm going to take it back. This was an important step, but I need to own it from here on out, because we're not getting the results we need.

Yes. So that idea of giving some positive feedback, even if the feedback isn't about the outcome, but the feedback is about the process or a part of the progress that they made or even how well they handled the feedback that you needed to take it back. Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah. Deb, our last episode was about managing up. And I imagine there's times when you need to tell your boss that you've delegated something, that you need to keep them informed of why you're doing that in order to manage perceptions of you so that you don't look like you're just trying to toss off work to someone else. You know, what are some situations where you think it might be helpful to keep your boss informed of when you delegated versus when it's just Sort of the normal course of business.

I think there's the business as usual delegation, where you may want to ask your boss, how much of that do you want to be informed about? Right. Because different. Some bosses want to know about everything and some bosses are like, tell me if something blew up in your face. Other than that, I don't need to know. So number one is asking them for their expectations. If you are delegating something to somebody so that you can focus on a development area for yourself, you want to tell your boss that. Right. So an example might be, you know, in our last performance review, you told me that one of the things that I really need to work on is being more innovative. In order for me to spend more time being innovative, these are the tasks I've delegated so that I can focus that. That is a win win right there. Right. I heard your feedback. I'm taking the feedback and I'm giving things away so that I can work on that. You also want to be mindful that part of your job is to be an ally and advocate and developer for the people that you are managing. So if you are delegating things to people on your team that you hope will give them increased visibility, grow their own skill sets, work on their own career development, you may want to bring that up to your manager as well so that they can see the sort of progress that you see.

Right. Jasmine, you told us at the beginning there's some tasks you haven't delegated yet that you'd like to. What are you taking from this conversation in terms of how to actually get those things off your plate?

Yeah. So what's coming up for me are the tedious tasks. Right now I'm doing a robotics program where I'm interacting with students and parents and I have to take attendance, that type of thing. That's a task that I don't think I need to do, but it's something that doesn't have this hard line of it must look this way. So that to me, is a task I can easily delegate to my virtual assistant. She can come up with this spreadsheet herself and propose it to me, and I can give her a timeline of when I'm looking to see that work done. And using the phrasing, when can you have this done by and do you understand the goal of this task? And do you have questions for me more definitively than me coming up with the entire Excel sheet and all these different things? For her, this is the type of task that has a lot of flexibility. The goal is track the students in the program and track their parents registering them.

Right. Deb, any final thoughts on what Jasmine's saying around what she's going to do differently and how she's going to do it?

Yeah. So I'm appreciating that you are using individually accountable language. Right. What are you going to do? When can I expect to see something from you as well? And I'm also noticing that you have some closed ended questions in there like do you understand? I would also compliment that with some open ended questions. What parts of this do you understand the best? What parts of this still feel confusing for you so that you make it okay for people to not completely understand it and they have choices beyond yes and no. And I'm getting the sense that you are really ready to lean into your own impact and the respect that you deserve from the amount of work that you've put into your role to now ask people to take on things so that you can continue to develop.

Thank you both so much. Jasmine, I have to say I think you're our first rocket scientist ever to be on the podcast. Thank you for upping our game. And Deb, thank you so much for sharing your always very practical advice. This has been really, really helpful to me.

Thank you for having me.

Thank you so much for having me.

That was leadership coach Deborah Grayson Riegel and aerospace engineer Jasmine lafleur in conversation with Amy Gallo on Women at Work. We'll be back next Wednesday with another hand picked conversation about leadership from the Harvard Business Race Review. If you found this episode helpful, share it with your friends and colleagues and follow our show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. While you're there, be sure to leave us a review. We're a production of the Harvard Business Review. If you want more articles, case studies, books and videos like this, find it all@hbr.org. This episode was produced by amanda kersey, ann sani and me, hannah bates. Ian fox is our editor. Music by coma media. Special thanks to rob eckhart, tina, toby mack, erika truxler, maureen hoch, audie ignatius, karen player, ramsey kabaz, nicole smith, anne bartholomew and you our listener. See you next week.

Sam.