If You Struggle With Anxiety, This Episode Will Change Your Life

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Hey.

Oh, my God, I'm so excited you're here.

Me too. It's been a long time.

It has. And we get a lot of questions, comments, requests for you. So I am so happy that you wanted to sit down. Oak for those of you who are new to the Mel Robbins Podcast, welcome. My name is Mel Robbins. I'm a New York Times bestselling author and one of the world's most respected experts on motivation and change. And this is my son.

I am not a New York Times bestseller, but I don't know yet. I'm the son of a New York Times bestseller. There you go.

Awesome. You're amazing.

Awesome.

I wanted to talk to you because you just came into the kitchen a couple minutes ago and you were like, oh, my God, I just had the best therapy session. And I thought to myself, first of all, how cool is that? And then I had the second thought, Oak, which is, I bet Oakley is about to share something that is insightful, profound, and incredibly helpful. And I absolutely love the fact that you're willing to talk to me about what you're learning from your therapist, because it's almost like a 2 for 1. I get value from it, too. You benefited from the conversation. I benefit from it. When you share it with Me and now you listening. You get to benefit from Oakley's therapy session too. And if you're new to the podcast, it's important for me to just tell you that our family is very open with one another, especially when it comes to the stuff that we're working on, the goals that we have, the struggles that we're facing. We love working this stuff out in real time instead of just keeping it to ourselves. And I personally struggled with anxiety for almost 30 years. All three of our kids have had various challenges. So has my husband, Chris. And I just am really excited oak that you agreed to sit down with me in real time. I don't even know what you're about to share, but I'm so grateful that you wanted to share this conversation with everyone. And I also thought, what a gift. I mean, how many 17 year old guys walk into the kitchen after a therapy call and announce to their family.

Wow, I don't know. I do not know.

Do you care?

No.

Talk to me about therapy. Do you like therapy?

I would like to talk to your audience about therapy.

Okay, do it guys.

Therapy is like, it's awesome. I love my therapist. I love therapy. When I was younger, I had a horrible experience with therapy. It was with this old woman who tried to convince me how to use an elevator because that's what I was afraid of. I was afraid of elevators. She was like, you need to ride the elevator. And I was like, I don't want to. And so I hated therapy. I hated it. And then I got a new therapist last year and it like changed my life.

How?

Because therapy is almost like having a notebook, but you don't have to write and you actually get an answer back. So you don't have to like take the time and like write down your thoughts. You just say it and then they say something back to you. And it doesn't have to help, but it's just nice to hear someone say something that isn't part of your friend group or a family member. They're just someone that's there to listen and maybe that's all they need to do. And I love therapy and I would fully recommend therapy to anyone because no, it's not like some bad thing. And if you have a therapist, you're super messed up in the head and like everything in your life is going to shit. Like, no therapy rocks. You can have it when you're perfectly fine and happy. I think everyone should have a therapist because it's just the best.

I agree with you. And the thing that I realize now is had I gone and worked with a therapist, Oak, when things were going.

Okay, they probably wouldn't have gone back. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Totally. Yeah, yeah. Because I hate to burst your bubble, but you are not going to be able to solve all your problems and your friends with the similar age as you and the similar mindset will not be able to solve the same problems that you have.

Oh, my God. Well, I want. I'm so happy and appreciative that you were like, yeah, I'll sit down on the mics with your mom and tell you why this therapy session with Keith was so awesome. So thank you.

Of course.

Could you tell everybody why you wanted to share this? Like, what? Cause. Cause I think it's pretty cool that you're willing to.

Do you want the honest answer or do you want the podcast answer?

Either.

The honest answer is that I came downstairs in a good mood and I said, I love Keith. And you said, will you record this with me? And I was in a good enough mood to say Cher.

Aw. I like an honest answer. What's the podcast answer?

Your viewers need to hear this, Mel.

They're not viewers.

This is game changing stuff right here. Life changing is it? Depends on how they look at it.

Well, is it for you.

Low key? Yeah, it's like. Yeah, little, like tweak in the direction that my life is going in.

Okay. I can't wait to hear it. So what did you talk about in this session?

A lot of things. A lot of things.

Would you be willing to unpack it with me?

Yeah.

Okay. But hold on a sec, Oak, because I just want to say something in case you are brand new to the Mel Robbins podcast, I wanna just make sure that, you know, I'm not a therapist and I'm not a medical doctor, and I'm inviting you into this conversation between a mother and her son. And I wanted you to be here because I know that this is gonna be a really amazing thing that's about to happen. I don't even know really what Oakley's about to tell me, but I just knew that listening to it was gonna help a lot of people. So with that little disclaimer, let's get started. Oak. So why did you start working with Keith in the first place?

Started when? Last year. So, yeah, April last year. So almost a year. Kind of close to a year. Sophomore year, it was weird because freshman year and sophomore year, there was a moment in time in my life. It was like a March, March time. It was like becoming spring, but still kind of chilly. That's like, the memory that I have from these points in time where. It wasn't depression and it wasn't, like. I think it was anxiety.

Okay.

It was overwhelming anxiety in my freshman and sophomore year, and it went away. Like, freshman year happened in March. It was about three weeks gone. Forgot about it.

Hold on a second. I don't remember you having.

Because I never told you about it.

Why?

Because I didn't want to make it a huge thing, and I didn't want to go to therapy, and I didn't want to, like, get into that. I didn't want to get into that. I was like, I can do this. I can. I can solve this. I can get over this. Like, we're good. And we were good freshman year.

Wait, hold on a second, though. Stop the. Stop the train.

Stop the phone.

Stop the train. I want to get off.

Don't you dare do that to me, John Mayer. We'll include that later. We'll include that later.

I had no idea that you were struggling with anxiety for three weeks in freshman year of high school. You hit. Why did you hide this from me?

I struggled with anxiety my whole life. When I talk about that specific time period, it's when my anxiety was at this weird peak where I just couldn't really do anything, and I was terrified.

Of what?

No idea. Like, I couldn't tell you freshman year. And I'll. I'll get into what it was later, because I know now, but there was. This is probably going to terrify you. I don't know if you've heard this story.

I don't know.

I wrote a memoir about it in sophomore year. So there was this one day in freshman year that I remember that's, like, basically the only thing that I remember from when I was anxious like, that. I wrote this memoir called the Blue Ceiling. Because artsy and, like, there was this, like, moment where, like, I woke up, and it was like, one of those. It was one of those March days where it was, like, there was no snow, but it was, like, kind of, like, foggy.

Yeah.

And misty.

Yeah.

And where we live, like, when you look out the windows, like, you can't see anything. So it, like, you feel like you're in, like, a snow globe. And so I woke up, and it was, like, one of those days where I was in a snow globe, and I was like, you know, like, I'm just gonna, like, stay in bed and watch some tv. Like, that sounds nice. And so I was doing that, and all of a sudden, like, boom. Like, semi truck hits Me, Like, I'm lightheaded. I'm confused. I'm like, what's going on? Like, nothing feels normal. Like, I don't feel safe right now. Like, I'm really scared. I don't know what to do. Like, I need to get out of my room. Like, I need to go. I need to go. I need to go. And so I like open the door, I go downstairs and I see dad sitting in front of the fire. And he's like, hey, dude, what's up? And I was like, I didn't. I didn't tell him that I was freaking out, but I like, looked at him and I was like, I'm okay. Like, it's whatever. And then I like walked outside. I like, looked around, I like, took a deep breath. I was like, whatever.

This is.

Like, you've been anxious before. Like, you can get over this. Like, it's fine. Then I go back inside.

Yeah.

I wanted to hug dad. I wanted to, like, I don't know. I wanted to do something. I wanted to reach out. I wanted to get help. I wanted something and I couldn't do it. Like, I just couldn't. I didn't want to.

Why?

Because I didn't want to get into it. I didn't want to become a process. I didn't want to have to do stuff because I felt like I knew what I was doing. And then what happened is I went back up to my room. I kept watching tv. And I remember going back downstairs to find dad and he wasn't there. And then I look towards the kitchen and I like, like thinking about this moment is so like, weird and scary and like, I would never do this ever. And it's super out of character. But I looked in the kitchen and like, I. You're gonna be very nervous when you hear this. And I looked also maybe trigger warning for the listeners. But I looked at the kitchen and I looked at like the. The knife holder.

Uh huh.

And like, I like almost like a movie, like I could fully imagine myself like stabbing myself in the stomach with a knife. And like part of me was like, I should. And I was like, holy fucking shit. Like, this is not happening right now. Like, I am not suicidal. Like, I don't want to kill myself. Like I want to live. So like, I go back outside. I like, I'm like hyperventilating. I'm like, I'm like hyperventilating right now. I look around, I'm like, I'm like breathing in and out. I'm like, am I going to be okay. Like, it's all okay. It's okay. It's okay. It's okay. And. And, like, there was this feeling of lightheadedness, and I just couldn't think clearly. And I felt like nothing I would do in that moment would ever matter. And so why do anything? And so that's why I had that thought is like, I should just, like, stab myself. Because, like, if I don't, if I do something and it doesn't matter, like, why do it? Like, why do anything? So, like, why. Why would I keep living my life if nothing I do will ever matter? Like, why not just end it now?

Wow. I'm not quite sure what to say. I'm just processing as I'm listening to you. Oak, is there any more?

Yeah. Then that night, the reason the memoir was called the Blue Ceiling is because later that night, I had this ceiling projector. It projected this blue night sky onto my ceiling. It was super cool. Still have it. And I just remember this is gonna be such a main character moment. But it was like. And it is. I will fully admit to that. But I reached my hand up and I, like, looked at my outline of my hand, and I was just, like, crying for no reason. And the darkness of my room is like my ceiling was blue, and that was the only light. And I was just looking at my hand, outlining, crying, and just being terrified. And then it basically just went away. It was gone. I never thought about it again. Freshman year. It was gone. Didn't think about it.

Can I ask a question?

Go for it.

Are you nervous about what I might ask?

No, not really.

Well, first, I just want to say thank you for telling me.

I feel like I told you that before. Right?

Not that part. No.

I could give you the memoir and you could read it on your own time if you wanted to.

I would love to.

I would be happy to give it to you.

But I think it's really odd that you never told me that. I forgot about, because we have, like, a really good.

Oh, my God, great relationship as stated in the family podcast episode.

Will you stop?

Wonderful. I'm plugging Mom.

I know. No, but I, I, I. So number one, I'm surprised that you never shared that with me.

I know why I didn't share it with you. Why I didn't share it with you. Because Two reasons.

Okay.

The first one was I didn't want to get into it. I didn't want to get a therapist. I didn't want to go on meds. I had horrible experiences with meds. And therapists in my past. And I didn't want to go back into it because I was just like, no, no, thanks. And two was because since I've had. I've had anxiety my whole life, like, I have. I wouldn't say every day, but, like, every week, I've probably had, like a small anxious panic, if you will. Like a. Oh, my goodness. I'm, like, anxious right now. Like, I'm anxious, I'm nervous, whatever, whatever. And, like, I can handle it. I can do it. And so I felt like I could handle it. And, like, the reason I didn't tell you is because I was like, I did. I thought I handled it. Like, I was like, it's over. Like, it didn't come back.

That's interesting.

It did not come back.

Yeah. I wanna say one other thing. I wanna address the fact that you may be listening to us talking about a very serious topic and we're giggling and we're light about it.

People laugh when they're uncomfortable.

Oh.

Except I wouldn't say I'm uncomfortable. I don't know if I'm uncomfortable right now, but I'm just like. I don't know. I feel like this is easier to talk about when I can, like, throw in a joke.

Got it.

Have some fun.

That makes sense. You know, Oak, I want to specifically address what you said about that thought that you had about the knife. Because those kinds of thoughts that are really big, scary, overwhelming thoughts, they can seem uncontrollable because they can come out of nowhere and they can start to get more and more frequent and overwhelming. They are very normal. In fact, according to therapists, almost everyone has experienced a situation like the one you described. But I want to talk further about this topic because it's helpful to talk about it. So hold on to that thought because I know there's more that we're going to talk about. Because I got to pause real quick for a word from our sponsors and we're going to be right back. This time of the year is chaotic, stress is high, treats are everywhere, and you're crashing by 3pm if you want to feel sharper, more focused, and beat the cravings, it's time to get to know your glucose with lingo, a real time glucose wearable for you. Staying in a healthy glucose range isn't one size fits all. It's normal to fluctuate. What matters is learning your patterns and building habits that work for you. You see how your glucose responds to what you eat, how you move, even how you sleep. I mean, here's the thing. One in three adults are living with prediabetes and most have no idea. But tuning in early and making lifestyle changes can transform your health for today and tomorrow. Get to know your glucose today with Lingo designed for you by Abbott. This holiday season through December 31st. Use code MEL10@hellolingo.com to get 10% off a lingo plan purchase one use per customer. This offer cannot be combined with other offers, US and Puerto Rico only. The Lingo Glucose system is for users 18 years and older not on insulin. It is not intended for diagnosis of diseases, including diabetes. Individual responses may vary. You know, For a couple years, Chris, my husband, has been we need to get a rowing machine Now. I rode in college. That is one heck of a workout. And so I looked into it and we decided to get a Hydrow rowing machine. And now I remember why I miss rowing so much. I sit down, I start rowing and I'm gone. In Miami, Scotland, Lake Lucerne. The locations are stunning and the instructors. You don't have to row alone. You got real Olympians and world class athletes who feel like friends and boat mates. They're funny, motivating, great storytellers. And before you know it, you're done. After just 20 minutes on the hydro, your heart's pumping, my body's stronger. I feel amazing. So will you. Here's what I love about it. Hydro works out 86% of your muscles with one seamless motion, twice as effective as running or cycling. And for me, not as hard on the knees or the bladder. And with the largest library of rowing workouts in the world, there's always something new. Whatever your goals are, Hydro meets you where you are and pushes you further. This holiday season. Train smarter, not longer. Head over to hydro.com and use code MEL to save up to $600 off on Hydro Rower during this holiday season. That's hydro w.com code mel hydrow.com, code MEL the Mel Robbins Podcast is proudly sponsored by Amica Insurance, our exclusive insurance partner. I love Amica. As they say at Amica, empathy is our best policy. From listening to your insurance needs to following up after a claim, Amica provides coverage with care and compassion. Amica not only provides coverage as a mutual insurer, Amica is built for its customers and prioritizes you. In a previous episode of the Mel Robbins Podcast called Tiny Fixes for a tired 7 Habits that make your life better, I shared this amazing story about an Amica representative who went above and beyond to support the family of a longtime Customer. After the customer had passed away, the representative from Amica wrote the family a handwritten letter with her condolences. It was an act of kindness that illustrates the personal care and empathy Amica and its representatives provide to every single customer and their loved ones included. Go to amica.com and get a quote today. Welcome back. I'm Mel Robbins and I'm so excited that you're here because I'm Talking to our 17 year old son, Oakley and we're having a really. Wow. It's just a. I'm just blown away by this conversation because Oakley is unpacking in real time this therapy session that he had tonight.

30 minutes ago I got off the phone. I feel like you're supposed to away today. But no, we just jumped right in.

We just jumped right in. We are a deep end kind of family. Let's go. Right. Okay. Here's the other thing I wanted to say. We have two years from this. Meaning we've had two years distance from this topic, from the freshman topic. Yes. You're in a amazing place. Mentally, spiritually.

Fantastically.

Yeah. And so there is no danger.

No.

And so I'm not triggered by that. And the other thing I wanted to say is, would it surprise you to hear that having thoughts or a fleeting thought about ending your life or dying some death, like that is normal?

Yeah. Because I feel like, like suicidal thoughts are. I feel like it's been talked about to the point where it's like you're at the worst of the worst. If they're suicidal thoughts. Like this is where like is going down. Like it's bad. Like this is bad. Like this is the worst of the worst. Like this is horrible. Like.

I get it. Like you're at the end of the line. So the truth is.

So when you hear that somebody has suicide, like when you just said would you think it's normal that most people do? Like I'd say no, because it's like.

No, most people do.

I wouldn't expect everybody to be at the worst of the worst.

Even though I see what you're saying, what you're saying is this because this has been talked about so much, particularly to your age group.

Yeah.

It makes you think that when you have a thought like that.

No, no, no, no, no. It's more just that like I feel like it's talked about where it's like, it's only like the people with the worst condition are gonna have that.

Got it.

So when you say like, oh, everybody has it, I'm like really? Like I feel like it's only the worst of the worst that happens because of.

No, it's normal to have those kinds of thoughts. So I just wanted to address what might sound like a weird tone or an insensitive tone to say we're two years away from it. Oakley is in an incredible place in his life, in his mental health, his spiritual health. He's just happy. And it's normal to have those kinds of big and scary and overwhelming thoughts. Oaks. And one of the things that I want everyone to hear, and I know I've said it over and over on social media, and I've said it in numerous circumstances, but it's this. There is a very big difference between wanting to end the pain that you're feeling and wanting these scary thoughts to end and actually wanting to end your life.

Right. Yeah.

Now, I want to talk to you, listening, and just check in with you. And what I specifically want to make sure that you hear me say is that it is normal to have these big, scary and overwhelming thoughts, and when they come out of nowhere or they seem to get louder and louder, it can be terrifying. I know it was terrifying when this all started happening with Oakley. So many people suffer because they believe that the thoughts will never go away.

That's what I believed. I thought it would never end, and I didn't want to live the rest of my life with those thoughts.

Now, if you knew the thoughts were going to end, would it have made you feel better?

Yeah.

If you knew having those thoughts pop in your mind was perfectly normal, would that make you have felt better in that moment?

Kind of, yeah.

I'm glad that you said that, Oak. Because I think so many people, when they start to suffer because of these really scary thoughts, they don't tell anybody.

I didn't want to tell anyone.

I know, and I wish you would have told me. I wish you hadn't suffered alone. I wish you would have told somebody. Because the second that you start to talk about immediately relieves you of the burden of carrying this on your own. You can figure out how to lessen the pain or the sadness or these awful kind of thoughts that keep popping into your head. You can do that, and you make your life better. Mm.

How?

By talking about these things that are overwhelming you and asking for help.

Because you can't just keep them inside.

No, because what happens when you keep them inside?

It's kind of like a Coke can. Like when you shake it up, then it explodes.

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. That's why I'm proud of you for Talking about this, Oak, because it can be torture if you've got that trapped in your own head.

My God, it's horrible.

And I think most people, including the people that we've lost that we love to death by suicide, I still would say most people, if somebody had assured them, if I can take away all the pain that you're feeling and you could still have your life, would you want to be here?

Hell, yeah.

Right?

Hell, yeah.

Exactly right. And that's why I'm saying this to you as you're listening to me in Oakley. Tell someone if you're having big and scary and overwhelming thoughts.

Tell anyone. Just tell anyone.

Why would you say that?

Because just like getting it out and saying it is so crucial to making your first step into solving this problem. And it honestly doesn't matter who you tell. All you need to do is tell someone something. As long as you trust them, as long as you care, all you have to do is tell someone.

I also want to tell you, if you're having big and scary and overwhelming thoughts, you're not fucked up.

No.

Those thoughts are temporary. They will pass. And they're going to pass so much quicker when you get them out of your head and you tell someone. You know, my friend Amy, who you know, Oak, she said when you have big scary thoughts like that, she heard a therapist say, it's like being trapped in a paper bag. You can't see anything. You can't think of anything else to do. It sort of clouds your mind. But the second you find the courage to say it out loud to somebody, it's like that paper bag, it just shreds. And you'll realize and you'll see that you're not alone anymore. There are people there that can help you and will help you. And what you're experiencing is normal and you can get through this. And so I had a question, because you just said to everybody Oak, that you didn't tell me about what was happening freshman year.

No.

And what would you advise somebody who is listening to this right now who relates to what you're talking about? And maybe they haven't told anyone. The reason why I'm asking this is I know so many parents and aunts and uncles and teachers and therapists are gonna forward this episode to young adults and college students in their life and just people they're worried about. So knowing that you just explained that you were worried I would make something of it, you didn't wanna get into it. You thought you could handle it. Knowing what you know now, what would you say to that person who hasn't told somebody?

Well, if you are close in age to me, I don't know, teenager, mid-20s, mid, I don't know, college, high school, middle school, whatever. It does not matter what is going on in your head. If it is overwhelming, if it is scary, if it is stopping you from doing things that you can normally do, you should always, always, always, always, always tell someone. And you may be worried that it'll make things weird or it'll change things in your life and it most likely will. But it is going to change your life for the better. In the beginning, for me at least, I thought to myself that hey, I can keep this in like I've done it before. I've done it 10,000 times before. Like I can do it again. And yeah, you can do it in the beginning, but instead of waiting till you collapse, just get it over with right in the beginning and tell someone. That's all you have to do.

It'll make it better.

It will make it better.

Do you wish you had told me earlier when it was happening in ninth grade?

Yeah, I do too, because I doubt it would have come back and soft my hair. That's.

That's true. Maybe it wouldn't have. Okay, let's just hit pause right now, Oak and hear a word from our sponsors. And when we come back, I want you to tell everybody what happened sophomore year.

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In March, Freshman year, gone, forgotten about.

But the shit hit the fans sophomore year.

God. So terrifying flashback beginning of sophomore year. Sophomore year is awesome. I loved my sophomore year. Great friends, great experiences, great classes, super fun. It was great. It was same time March. Or was it April? Might have been April.

I think we're have to track this. This year we will have to track this.

Hey, it's coming to that time.

Let's go.

It is not yet. Anyways, April comes around and everything's good. And then in my English class, my teacher had us write a memoir. And so I wrote about my experience that I had freshman year. Okay, the blue ceiling. And so by writing that, I basically like mentally dove back into that time and I remembered how I felt freshman year. And then I remembered what it was like. And I remember the hopelessness and the anxiety. And I kind of brought myself back to a time where I was super vulnerable and I had to go back and be vulnerable in that moment. And then I can see your eyes.

Tearing up just thinking about it.

Not really. Not in this moment a little bit. Okay.

Not gonna lie.

So those thoughts are fresh in my mind. And since I was a sophomore and it was a year later, I wanted to try and like unpack it and think about what it actually meant, why I felt that way. And while I was doing that like a week rolled around. And the next week in that class, my English teacher again showed us a movie. And this movie was about climate change and it was about how in like five years, it's Irreversible, and we're fucked. And it was, like, possible solutions and all this stuff. And then it told us what would happen if these solutions didn't happen. And so I come out of the movie and I'm like, what could we do? Like, realistically, like, as a world, like, what can we do?

Okay.

So I started thinking about my town and then my state and then my country and then the world. And then I was like, what if we can't do anything? Can somebody else help us? And then I was like, is there somebody else? And I was thinking about the universe, and then I was thinking about, like, in, like, expanding, expanding, expanding, expanding. We become a pebble, we become a grain of sand. We become literally, like, nothing. Like, we become nothing in my mind. And all of a sudden, it's like a light switch in my mind where I'm like, holy. Like, nothing matters. Absolutely nothing matters to me. Nothing I do.

Do not get yourself back in that state. Okay? Well, I was just like. Like, I don't know.

So nothing matters. Nothing I do will have an effect. Nothing anybody does will change anything. So why do anything? Why? And so I thought about that, and I kept thinking about that being like, there has to be an answer. There has to be an answer. Like, a week passes and there's no answer. And then all of a sudden, I start to get these nervous anxiety attacks where I'm lightheaded and I can't think and everything is rushing out of my head and I'm scared and I'm confused. And it's all because in those moments, I keep telling myself that nothing I do is gonna matter. No one I talk to, nothing I do, nothing will ever change anything. It doesn't matter what I do. It doesn't matter what anybody does. The world's gonna end because the world not. Not the world's gonna end. But just like, in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't matter. We do not matter. Climate change wasn't my thought.

Okay?

It wasn't about the world ending. The movie about climate change sparked, like, a thing about, like, me thinking about even matter, the bigger picture. And then I realized that I was like, I don't matter. Nobody matters. The world doesn't matter.

Well, let me pick up the story now.

Well, it's not done yet.

Well, because in this instance, you let us know what was going on.

That is what was going on. There was one moment we were eating dinner together.

Yeah.

And I just had to, like, get up and go to the bathroom and, like, look in the mirror. And be like, you're okay. You're okay. You're okay. Like, it's gonna be okay. Like, you'll get through this. And I was like, I. I was like, I can't. Like, I can't get through this. Like, I can't do this. And in that bathroom, I was like, I. If this stays. If this keeps up, like, I am going to kill myself. Like, I will. Cause, like, that's how scared I was. Like, I couldn't live with this fact, and I couldn't accept the fact that I felt like nothing mattered.

Yeah. It was a terrifying thing to go through with you.

It was so.

Because you had a complete breakdown, and you started explaining that these thoughts had been cascading and cascading, and you didn't want to think this, but you didn't know how to stop it. And I'll never forget that, because I was holding you, and you were crying and you were scared, and I was crying and scared, and it had just come out of nowhere that you had gone from just thinking and thinking and thinking and not telling us to a complete breakdown.

Yeah.

And I asked you. I was like, are you in danger right now? Are you going to hurt yourself? And do you remember what you said?

I said, no. You said, no, I'm too scared to do that. Like, I don't want to.

Yeah. And you also said, no, but I can't live like this, Mom. I can't keep thinking these thoughts. And I kept going, what thoughts? And you kept saying, I don't matter. Nothing matters.

I feel like even to this day, I still can't truly explain the thoughts that I was having because it was just like, I can't wrap my head around them. And so I was dying to explain it to you. And every time I told you something, you'd be like, oh, so is it this? And I was like, that's not it. That's not it. I couldn't figure out what to say.

You did a really good job of explaining it. You know, when I would have very acute moments of anxiety when I was younger, I would have this thing happen that was equally scary oak where I didn't have the thoughts. Nothing matters. Nothing matters. I would all of a sudden feel this weird thing happen in my body. Like, you call it like a switch that flipped. And all of a sudden, I would have this experience where everything felt fake. Almost like the Truman Show.

Right.

Or that your whole life is a set that's fake. And I would repeatedly have this feeling that if the wind blew all of these Walls in this room would just flop down.

Like a TV set.

Like a TV set. And I would find myself in the middle of the desert with no one in sight. And the only person. And is Earth even real? And is this room even real? Like, that's how it was. Terrifying. Absolutely terrifying. So I understand what that's like. And for those of you wondering what we did, I went into first responder mode. Do you remember?

You wouldn't let me sleep alone.

I know I slept.

You wouldn't let in your bed. You wouldn't let me be alone. You. Oh, my God. You took me out of school. Yep. For a week.

For mental health.

We went back to Massachusetts.

Yep. To see doctors. I wouldn't let you be alone. I wouldn't let you sleep alone. I made you eat. Dad meditated with you.

Yeah.

We got you into therapy as fast as possible. Yeah.

You got on medication.

Tried some medication. That really helped.

It's the best.

Help you climb out of that. Oh, man. Like, sometimes you need a ladder.

Yeah, you do.

Sometimes you also need a surfboard. And so they can work both ways. And they work. So that is what led you to therapy. To therapy.

What a segue. This is like. Oh, wait.

Also, I feel it's a 25 minute segue.

I want to say another thing. Can I talk about this John Mayer song?

Sure.

In terms of it. Okay. Like, jumping back before we go to therapy, the. At the time, there was this song that I still love today, but I think it also contributed to my anxiety. It's. There's this, like, underground artist. His name's John Mayer. I don't know if any of you know who he is, but he's super. I think he's a pretty good artist. And there's one of his songs, it's called Stop this Train. And basically, like, train symbolizes time and how, like, time keeps moving. And like, John. I don't know if I should call him John. We're not friends. But, like, John Mayer wants the train or time to stop. And it's like. It's just like him being like, stop, stop time. Like, let me stay where I am. Like, I want to get off. Like, I just want to be with what I am right now. And then it ends with him, like, talking to his dad. And his dad's like, don't stop, like time. Like, you just want to hold on and just, like, keep going for as long as you can and just, like, appreciate it and be in it. Stop this train. I wanna get off and go home again. I can't take the speed. It's moving in. I know I can't, but I. Oh, my goodness.

It's making you emotional.

Oh, my God. It always does.

Why? Why does that make you emotional?

Cause, like, time is just like, oh, my God. It's. That's too much. Like, that's too scary. Not scary, but, like, that's just so much to think about. Like, how, like, time is just keep going. To keep going.

Yeah. You know, I always have that feeling when I'm in a museum and, you know, I'll be looking at a painting, and I lean forward, and it's like something has been painted in the 1800s.

Geez.

Have you had that experience?

I'm way too bored in a museum to ever pay attention to dates. I would love to be, like, a museum guy, but I can't.

Why?

Because it's just, like, fun and, like, mysterious, and it makes you, like, more interesting. I've actually gotten into museums more than I used to be. But, I don't know, my memories of museums were always just like, this is the most boring thing ever. Like, staring at a wall for 15 minutes.

Meanwhile, your mother is having a small existential crisis as she's looking at paintings. Because as I lean forward and I'm like, this was painted in the 1800s. That means there is a person standing in front of this canvas 200 and whatever years ago. I can't even do the math on this. And they're not here anymore. And it makes me feel so small in the timeline of humanity. And it's the same kind of thing that you're talking about.

Yeah. And so that song just sparked something in me where I was like, time is going to keep going, and it won't, like, slow down. It won't slow down. And, like, that's scary. And, like, that added to everything. And. Yeah, that's the whole John Mayer story, anyways. John Mayer, if you're listening, please contact me immediately because I love you.

I remember that day, that John Mayer song, Stop the Train. It hit you really emotionally because you were in this amazing place in your life. It was your sophomore year. You were happy, and you were so happy, you wanted time to slow down because you were loving your life so much, and you didn't want high school to be passing by so quickly.

Did I call you?

And I was, like, sobbing again? You love to cry. You're a good crier because you were so grateful for your life. And that song played, and you were calling me from the high school parking lot, crying about how much you Love your life. And who knew that just a three.

Weeks later it would, like, boom, it.

Would completely collapse and you would be in probably the worst mental breakdown I've ever seen you. Yeah, really scary as a parent. And I'm proud of you, though. I'm proud of you for asking for help, for telling us the truth, for. For seeing a therapist, for taking medication, for turning toward it to figure it out.

Yeah.

I'm really proud of you.

Thank you. So, Tommy, Keith, we segue Present day Keith. Present day. My therapist, the goat Keith, he's awesome. He's in California, so we zoom. And he's just this super chill, spiritual guy, used to be a surfer. He's just the coolest dude ever. And I love him because he's, like, such a smiley guy and he's just, like, fun. And he's taught me all this stuff. Our beginning lessons were a lot on purpose. And I came to the conclusion, with his help, that life does not matter, but us as individuals can make it matter by using purpose and finding our purpose. And so what I discovered with him is that, like, these thoughts about life not mattering are going to be here, but that doesn't mean they're going to stay. Because over time, when I live my life, I'm going to discover the reason why I want to be here.

Yeah. And why you matter.

And it doesn't have to change anything, and it doesn't have to do anything, but I'm just, like, looking for my purpose and, like, my reason to be. Like, well, that's why I'm here, and that's why I want to live, and that's why, like, stuff like that.

So I just want to see if you can go a little deeper in explaining something, because when you first started working with your therapist, Keith, you were in the middle of these catastrophic, kind of overwhelming, scary thoughts. And it's interesting that where you guys started was with the topic of purpose. And I understand that this was happening in parallel with a medical doctor giving you a antidepressant to kind of act like a ladder to help you stabilize.

Still on them.

Still on them, baby.

Still great. Still taking them, guys. They're great.

Okay. But what was it about the topic of purpose that really helped you see your way through these scary and overwhelming thoughts? Because the other thing that I've read about the research of this is that this is very common. Whether you're triggered by thinking about things like climate change, or if you're thinking about racism or systematic discrimination, or you are experiencing extreme poverty, or you lose Somebody that you love, it can lead you to deeply contemplate the meaning of life. And people that are more empathetic or introverted tend to do this more. But it can happen to anybody. And so I found it really interesting that it was a conversation about purpose that helped you start to gain more control about the way that you were thinking. So can you explain how that helped you?

Yeah. I feel like what our conversation about purpose did for me was that even though at this point in time I felt like life had no meaning, the conversation about purpose kind of strengthened a thought in my mind about how that at one point in my life, I'll do something or I'll meet someone or I'll go somewhere that will just, like, give me this feeling of belonging and a reason to live and a reason to be here. And that will be, like, my reason to be on this earth. And, like, one day I'll be like, hey, this thing that I've discovered about myself that I really like is, like, my reason to be here, and this is why I'm on this earth.

Can I go a little deeper?

Yeah.

Because at the time that this was happening, how would you describe your relationship with your family?

Uh, good.

Yeah.

I mean, I feel like my relationship has always been good, so.

Yeah. And did you have friends?

Plenty. I even had a girlfriend.

And did you enjoy school?

Loved it. Still do.

So the only thing about your life that wasn't working were these thoughts?

Yeah, these thoughts. It's not even that it fully clouded my judgment. I still loved my friends and you guys and everybody in my life, but I just didn't see why that mattered.

Because you have all this stuff handled, and now your mind is starting to take you to these dark places. Got it. And I think that's important because it just goes to show you, no matter what's happening on the outside in somebody's life, they seem like they're enjoying school, they have a great girlfriend, they've got good friends, they have a family that they're connected to, that their thoughts might actually still be a very scary place.

Yeah.

And I wanted to point that out because you just can't assume that you know what somebody's reality really is. I mean, I didn't even know.

Nobody did.

Not in ninth grade.

No. Well, yeah.

I mean, I knew very well in sophomore year.

Yeah.

But I also find it very interesting because when you believe that you are here for a reason and that your life is leading you somewhere, that there is something unique for you to discover that's on the road Ahead might be tomorrow, might be a year from now, might be 10 years from now, might be longer from now. But kind of approaching life like, it's almost like a gift that you unwrap to discover what's inside. That thought was like a seed that he planted that has taken root.

Yeah.

Because I hear you talking a lot pretty frequently about purpose.

It's like my personality now, all of my friends and like, everybody I talk to. At some point, we always come into this conversation where I'm like, you know, I'm actually like, I don't see a reason to living, and I'm actually looking for purpose. And they're like, what?

You're a really intellectual guy. Because I would label this an existential crisis, which is basically questioning existence. Yeah, that's what happened to you. And that happens to a lot of people. It's a very normal thing. And so are big and scary thoughts. Thank you for telling me that.

Thank you for listening.

Anything else on that topic that you want to share?

No, I don't know. Anything else you want to know?

Are you okay right now?

Yeah.

Is that an honest answer?

Yes, it is.

When's the last time you had a big and scary thought?

To be honest, the thoughts are still there. Yeah, they're there, like, every day, but they're more like in the back of my head kind of thing, where it's like, oh, yeah, this is true. And I'm just like, well, yeah, it is true, but, you know, who cares?

I mean, that's an amazing attitude, Oak. So do you have a sense of what your purpose is?

Absolutely not. But that doesn't. Like, that's not daunting to me. Like, I'm 17. Like, I'm not expecting to have it all figured out. Like, I know that it's gonna take a while. Like 10, 15, 20, 25. It could take as long as it needs to. And I'm okay with that because I just know that at some point in my life, I will find something where I'm like, this is it. Like, this is why I'm here, and this is what I want to do.

I think I have something for you to chew on if you want to hear it.

I don't. Because it's like, for me, like, this is my. Like, you can tell me your purpose, and you can tell me what you think mine is, but I need to find mine. Like, it has to come from me, and I have to believe that, and that's only going to be genuine if it's from me. So I guess basically if any of you are worried about me out there, appreciate it.

But should they be?

No. And then this then segues into tonight. He just told me something that I really. That really resonated with me.

Ooh. I want to hear it. So this was the thing that made you walk into the kitchen.

I mean, I always walk into the kitchen after Keith and I'm like, I love Keith because Keith is awesome.

So this was a little life changing thing.

Yeah.

Let me hear it.

So he was basically like, when you were born, when your. Your mom and your dad. I'm gonna quote my biology teacher, when your mom and your dad did the special hug.

That is what your high school.

Yeah, my high school. It's so funny. My high. In. In class, in like whatever we're talking about, like DNA and like natural selection and stuff like that. Whenever my high school teacher, like, talks about how, like there's offspring created, he's like, when the mom and the d. Special hug, it's like, it's like, okay, so when you and dad did the special hug last night. Whatever. My. When. When you and dad did the special hug and conceived me, my universe was created.

Yes.

The universe that I live in was technique, like, created for me.

Yeah.

And he basically told me where it was. Like, this is gonna sound super self centered at first, but I have had the belief for my whole life where it's like, I am the most important person to me.

Yes, you should be.

Which should be true for everybody.

Yes.

It's not true for everybody because humans were like evolved from a form where we had to be social and put others in front of us to basically survive. So it feels normal and it feels right to do it now. But in reality, the most important person to yourself is you. And he was basically just like, when you do anything, you should ask yourself, do you want to live in your universe where this happens? So it's like paint a hypothetical situation. Let's say you are about to go behind your friend's back.

Yeah.

And do something wrong that would hurt them. Do you want to be in a universe where you've done that? Do you want to remember that? And he was like, you can keep asking yourself this question because if you think about it, your life is your own. And you pick and choose what happens in your life. And so before anything happens, you should ask yourself, do I want this to remain in my life?

Yeah. Because it stays there. You're right.

It will always say that.

And I have this vision, almost like an illustration of somebody and they're in like A dark room. And there's, like, this particle thing all around them. And that's the universe. And so interesting.

It's just how this is your life. What I took away from it is that even if life.

Yeah.

And our existence on Earth does not matter.

Yep.

Even if that's true, you are still experiencing a life. You still feel the emotions from that life. You still experience things. You still live it. And so just because life does not matter, you are still living a life. And you should be living a life in a universe. In a universe that is your own, that you enjoy.

Yes.

Because that's all you can do.

Yeah.

That's all you need to do.

We're so busy chasing shit outside our.

Own universe, all that matters is what is right in front of you.

How did that flip a switch for you?

Because I felt like I was on the hunt for the big answer, the big purpose, the big question. It was gonna, like, come to me, and I was gonna be like, whoa. Enlightened. Like floating meditation. Buddha over here. But it was more just like, purpose will come to me. But in the meantime, I'm going to be present to what I feel and what I do. And so why not feel and do what I want to?

I love that. Thank you for sharing that. I got a lot out of that visual of the universe, and that that's the universe that gets created. And that at least when you become an adult, you really do get to choose what's a part of it and what's not.

Yeah. And you can choose what's left and what isn't. And anything you do will remain. So you should always be asking yourself, in my universe, do I want there to be a part of me that has done this?

Yeah.

Your extraordinary, ordinary life.

Your extraordinary, ordinary life. Say something more about that. It's from the movie About Time, our family's favorite movie.

It's the best movie ever. So there's actually two quotes that I really like. We're all traveling through time together every day of our lives. All we can do is do our best to relish this remarkable ride. The second one is, I just try to live every day as if I've deliberately come back to this one day to enjoy it as if it was the full final day of my extraordinary, ordinary life.

That's beautiful.

Hmm.

Well, I love you.

Love myself. And I love you, too.

You're the best, dude.

Thank you, Mom.

Best. All right. Well, in case nobody else tells you today, I wanted to tell you that I love you.

So do I.

And I believe in you.

I do as well. And make this universe your own.

Make your universe your own. You get to choose what is staying in that universe. Universe. And what you're not taking in there. And I love what you said. Might as well just enjoy it. All right, everybody, we love you.

Love you, too.

Talk in a few days. Bye. Oh, one more thing. It's the legal language. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. It is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional stitcher.