Jeff Beer, Sr. Staff Editor at Fast Company

From the campus of the University of Pennsylvania, Wharton School, this is Marketing Matters on Business Radio. Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, and of course, marketing students of all ages, welcome to the program. Yep, yep, yep. First, the name Professor Americus Reed. Second, the games. Of course, marketing, as in segmentation, targeting, positioning and messaging to your customers, listeners. You are to be saluted on a daily basis. Baby, please. SiriusXM, channel 132 radio, powered by the Wharton School. I'm your host, Professor Americus Reid.

Yep.

And they call me many, many things. The hip hop Prof. AKA the czar of the mar, the militant poet, the muscular microphone hustler, also known of as course as the Whitney M. Young Jr. Professor of Marketing here at the Wharton School. And I'm excited to bring you the program today. Barbara, my co host, cannot join us, but we've got a live segment that is absolutely packed with unbelievable entertainment. If you'd like to join and ask a question, please feel free to call in at that's 1-844-942-7866. Our phone lines are open for the first segment of the program and here's what we've got. We've got first up, marketing news. We're always excited about the cool things that are going on, the state of the art things that are happening in the world of marketing. And we've got the guru. With us today, we've got Jeff Beer, a senior staff writer at Fast Company, covering all of these issues. It's going to be an amazing discussion about marketing and brands, all kinds of he's on the beat, ladies and germs. He's out there covering these things, doing the deep journalistic work. So we're gonna have a conversation with him first. And then secondly, we've got the Spotlight segment where you'll hear a great conversation that my co host, Barbara Kahn had with Jeff Scott, who's the vice president for hockey development and industry growth at the NHL, about their Black History Month initiative. So we've got an incredible program. Let's jump right into the segment right now and let me introduce my first guest. This is Jeff Beer, senior staff writer at Fast Company. Jeff, thanks for joining the program.

Maricus, thank you for having me, man.

I'm just so excited, man, because, you know, just having you on, last time we talked, it was a few years back, we were describing and talking about all kinds of cool stuff. So we're extremely excited to have you back. And in fact, you are the guru that is out there, Jeff, identifying all of the interesting things that are good things that happen, bad things that happen, hits or misses that happen throughout the marketing world. And we're excited. We want to play our little hit or miss game where we do exactly that, where we will talk about your stories, Jeff, and we will try to identify your reaction. My reaction, Dion Simpkins, Dana Cash, our producers reactions to some of the great things that are going on and try to see if they are hits or misses. We love to call this program or this part of the segment hit or miss Hits. Just a bit outside. All right, Jeff, so jump in and tell us exactly what you've got and describe what you've been study or writing about. And let's talk about whether or not it's a hit or a miss.

Okay. A colleague of mine, I didn't write about this, but I, but I have been, I'm very interested in it. This, this came out this week. They McDonald's announced that on February 26th they were going to flip the M in McDonald's to McDonald's which for any fans of anime or manga will recognize as kind of a play on the brand that's been happening in that pop culture media for decades, really and across TV shows, graphic novels, video games, in titles like Sonic X Cowboy, Bebop, Otaku Elf and anyway, so they're doing kind of, I want to say the usual thing where they have got some limited edition packaging, a whole new sauce, a spicy sauce.

Oh dear.

And they're releasing a series of McDonald's anime shorts and manga. But, but what really makes this for me interesting and, and actually impressive is it's not McDonald's kind of, you know, co opting a piece of pop culture. They're actually recognizing their place in it. They, they're not McDonald's but they recognize that, you know, they have a place in culture and this entertainment has sort of been playing with them for years. So they're kind of wearing that as a badge of honor. And also they're collaborating with Japanese manga artist Aki Bright and animation house studio Pirro, which is probably best known for its series Naruto. So they're not just kind of creating, oh, we're going to do McDonald's anime. They're, they're, they're teaming with the best, they're teaming with like the folks that are deeply into this to really truly create something that is going to stoke anime and manga fans but also get McDonald's fans excited as well. Which, which is, is exactly, I think the balance they're going for.

That's interesting, Jeff, because In some senses, we talk about this all the time on the program, Jeff. Authenticity. You mentioned something that I want to jump back to as well. Within that, the context of that specific example, which is cultural relevance. And the idea that the cultural relevance, you can't fake it. You can't, you can't, you know, socially engineer it in a fake way. It has to be. It's exactly what you said, Jeff. It has to be there. And then you notice it and you say, wait a second, we're kind of part of this conversation. Let's lean in on this. Right? And so in some senses, that. That's point number one. Here's the second point that's interesting about this, Jeff, and that's the question of. You mentioned McDonald's fans and fans of this, this anime, in this world of gaming and so on. Is there significant overlap? How does this look in terms of, you know, are we going to attract new folks in how do our existing, you know, McDonald's customers feel about this and so on. How does this work?

That's a great question. I mean, you know, I guess my only answer would be, and this is very unscientific. I mean, you know, on every McDonald's sign where it says billions served, I got to think there's some Venn diagram between anime and manga fans and McDonald's. But, but just, but importantly on that point, I think what it does, it's kind of an extension of what they started going way back to when they started their famous orders thing with Travis Scott, BTS and other artists where again, we could ask the same question. What's the crossover between, say, Travis Scott fans and McDonald's fans? Who knows? But what it does do is it's recognizing that who is a fan of McDonald's was Travis Scott in that instance, they weren't just paying someone to come be a part of the brand. For this most recent one, you've got a media or a form of entertainment that is. Has a very, very passionate fan base. And I'm going to bet that a bunch of them either are McDonald's fans or have been to McDonald's. But to see how McDonald's recognizes this place in that entertainment through the W. Donald's and actually like doing some cool stuff with that, that recognition, I think will just further stoke fandom of the brand from, from the anime and manga fans just to show the respect and enthusiasm that this company, like McDonald's is, is showing to something that they love.

Interesting. It sounds, Jeff, Beer that you are, you would characterize this as this As a hit. Is it? Am I hearing you correctly?

I would. Yes. I think. I definitely think this is. This is a hit. I. And I don't think it'll be interesting to see because there is a product crossover. I know there's a great food influencer, but he's not just a food insert. He was a. He was a showrunner at the Simpsons and writer since Bill Oakley. And he does. He does fast food reviews and he reviews like new, you know, Taco Bell menu items and sauces and blah, blah. And he this week was. It seemed like a little skeptical. And he tried that new sauce and he did. It was fantastic. So I'm going to. I'm going to. I think they're kind of hitting it on. It might be a hit on both a product side and a pop culture.

It's important. I'm going to jump in the back in the studio with my audio engineer guru. This is Dion Simpkins. Sir, do you find this. First of all, are you a McDonald's customer or fan? We use the word fandom. And secondly, is this a hit for you, sir?

So here's the thing, right?

You're always in trouble. You're always in trouble. When the great Deon Simpkins starts with. So here's the thing.

I was giving it single, cuz, I mean, it's McDonald's. Like, yeah, what do you need to do? Yeah, you got like a k. Bajillion soul. Like, we know what McDonald's is. I was giving it a single until he brought up the Simpsons guy. Okay, I'm a Simpsons guy. If he likes it, it's all in. I'm going. I'm going with a double. Give it a solid double take. Take that extra.

You know what's interesting, Dion? When you say that, you know that McDonald's, you know, what can they do? They're everywhere, you know, you're absolutely right. And one thing that their global cmo, Morgan Flatley, told me years ago, but the work that they've done since reflects this approach, is that she was saying how for so long, and I would agree, McDonald's is everywhere. What do they need to do? But they're advertising. Even though everyone kind of had the jingle in their head or whatever, it never really grabbed you. She even referred to it as cultural wallpaper. It's just out there. It's just. We're constantly, you know. Yeah, you're walking by a McDonald's. You've seen a billboard. Who cares? Yeah. And this is the type of work that they do. That is making people these these fan bases and the Venn diagram between these fan bases and their own care.

Interesting. Love that idea. Jeff Beer, senior staff writer at Fast Company, joining us listeners, talking about all kinds of interesting things. Sounds like McDonald's is a hit. What are some of the other things that you're working on, other stories that you've seen out there that you've been covering as well?

Jeff One I wrote this week which I really liked was they're the fashion and luxury giant lvmh.

I saw this.

Yeah. They announced this week that they were launching a brand entertainment division to explore content possibilities across for its like and it's they have I think 70 or more than 70 brands, you know, Louis Vuitton, Fendi, Kenzo, Tiffany and Co. Dior, all kinds of luxury brands. And you know, we talk about content and fandom. This we live in a time where I mean I think, I'm trying to think now in the last year, I mean what have we had our last few years? Okay, most most obvious, Barbie.

Barbie.

A movie about Barbie.

Right.

We have a movie about I think, I mean Adam Driver alone has starred in Ferrari and House of Gucci in the last couple years. Right. Ben Affleck directed a Nike film called Air. Yes. Eva Longoria directed a film called Flamin Hot about Flamin hot Cheetos.

Right.

Not exactly about that but around that. So the brands themselves have become the stories that, that, that people want to hear and people want to tell. So more and more certain companies are getting in on maybe they want to be a part of that and not necessarily from a oh, we want to control the message which but though I'm sure is part of it but also from a let's make it as good as possible. Let's, let's let these directors, let's let these producers into our archives. Let's let them see some of these stories. And now the bigger companies are starting to think about these division to do that now the so Nike in 2021 had a very has a very similar story with a division called Waffle Iron Entertainment. And in that year they dropped, they did. They, they dropped a documentary called the Day Sports Stood still about how sports reacted to the COVID 19 lockdowns. And they did. They started a docu series called Promised Land that spotlighted NBA star John Morant and that got them in the next year they signed a multi year film deal with Apple, Apple TV plus I mean that's a brand signing a film deal. And so the common element between those two is a company called Super Connector Studios, which run by two guys named Jay Goodman and John Kaplan. And they're sort of like a connective tissue between Hollywood and marketing and advertising and brands.

Gotcha.

So the lvmh, I think, is super, super interesting to see what they can do with that.

I love that idea. Jeff, tell me if this is an incorrect characterization. I think you're onto something because I think the great brands understand that. They've always been about storytelling and they've always been about creating the powerful narrative that draws people in. I was thinking about that when you were describing Walford Waffle Iron Entertainment, the Nike division. I mean, all they. Their commercials, they don't talk about how they make the shoes. They talk about how does this stuff make you feel in stories, you know, so when a movie, when a piece of entertainment comes out like promised land, and hopefully there's no, you know, flashing of guns in that. Sorry, John Morant fans, I love the kid, but there is issues with you. My audio engineer is laughing back there. There is issues when you partner, you know, and you take these longer sort of formats. But it just makes sense though, Jeff, because like you're saying it's like it's an opportunity to create something where the message is there, but it's not. It's not in your face. It's meant to. You're meant to be drawn into the story. Oh, and by the way, the halo of the brand is there. Gotta jump to Deion Simpkins here. He's the guru. Listeners, you may not know this. He's also a drummer extraordinaire, and I believe he has a custom made Louis Vuitton drum set.

That's.

That's what I've heard. So you're in this space, sir? Well, I'm in this space.

That sounds like brand entertainment.

Yeah, right, exactly. What are your thoughts on this?

You know what I'm. I'm saying this is a hit from the. The Hollywood studio side, Right? Because it's so much rehashed movies now. Like, if this gives us, you know, another, you know, based on a true story or whatever, it's something new. Like we're up to like Fast and the Furious 38. Like, what are we doing here?

You know? Right.

So it's like, if this gives us new content, I'm for it.

Interesting. What I. Dion is pointing something that is also highlighting something that's also super interesting, Jeff. And that is the idea you meant.

You.

You sort of, sort of inferred this as well. And it's kind of like, what you see with commercials in the Super Bowl. So if, if there is a Hollywoodization, if you will, of brand entertainment, one could imagine you reaching a saturation point where this stuff gets so high quality, so well produced, so well, you know, well storied, all of these things, that it just becomes really hard to stand out again because the games are, you know what I mean? The level is up so much. Do you think that's a potential thing that, you know, brands should also be aware of? And if so, how do they mitigate that possible saturation or satiation in the marketplace?

Yeah, that's an interesting point. Like, you're basically saying, you know, if we, if we pull on this thread for long enough, does it become like superhero movies where now every. Or Fast the Furious, as you say, like, is every. Has it become too extended? I think, yeah, sure. I mean, if you're. If the storytelling becomes a little repetitive, if your approach becomes a little repetitive. But I mean, brands are living, breathing things as well as ip. You know, I think one of the things that makes this and a compelling situation is that so much of getting people to the movies, it's like, oh, all these nostalgic throwback reboots and whatever. It's because it's recognizable content and people kind of know what they're getting into, so they'll go see it. Brands kind of have that too. Like, that's a Gucci and you like Gucci. You're like, oh, maybe I'll go check that out. That's. That's ip, but it's also a living and breathing thing where the company is always creating its own story. So I think that can change. But also the company itself, the 247 always on brand approach, which I think all are in right now, you're sort of quick and dirty, fun, less produced stuff can be all over social or on YouTube or wherever. And then you have kind of these tentpole, maybe better produced Hollywood type situations to balance that out. That would be my own. That would be my. The optimistic view on that side.

I love that analysis, Jeff, because what you're saying is there's a smart way to do this, right? There's the way tentpole, I think was the word you use, where the super high quality stuff is kind of the pillar in the ground. And all of the additional kind of incremental storytelling and fun little things that happen on TikTok or Snapchat or Instagram reels or whatever, it supports that. So it kind of builds up. It's all working together without Sort of overwhelming the consumer. I think that's what I'm saying. I'm hearing, if I'm hearing you correctly, Jeff, totally.

And back to your original sort of point on this. I think, I think that's also a recipe for success around super bowl advertising.

Yeah, because that, that's something we noticed, Jeff. It's just like we were kind of, we kind of had all of us collectively here at the show, Marketing Matters. We had a sort of a meh reaction to most of the ads and we, and we didn't really want to beat them up because we recognized, Jeff, that it's just so hard at this point because expectations are so high. It's so difficult to stand out and do something creative. So that' always an interesting point. Jeff Beer, senior staff writer at Fast Company Listeners, is joining us, talking about really cool things he's been writing about in marketing. What are some of the other things you've been covering, Jeff?

Well, I, I, it's not out yet, but this happened, this happened, this happened. This.

You heard it here first, Listeners.

Yes. Yeah, but it's, it's around Wendy's this week. Wendy's kind of hit a weird viral, I guess you just call it a PR mess because it comes basically. Okay, so I think it was February 15th or so a while ago, over a week, on an analyst call or an earnings call, the CEO talked about how the chain is rolling out these new digital menu boards across 6,000 all its US locations. Exciting, exciting stuff. But then he talked about how it could begin testing enhanced features like dynamic pricing. Now those two words, those two words together, to me, I don't really hear it. I'm like, whatever, because I'm thinking fast food. But a week later, I think it's the New York Post had the, had the, had the main story on this. They basically had a headline that was like, wendy's is going to introduce Uber, like surge pricing. That's what they got out of dynamic pricing. Right. And so, oh God. Maybe that's what it means. Maybe that's not what it means. But what I do know when I, and, and I'm gonna, I'm calling this a brand, Ms. Uhhuh. Not that, not the idea of dynamic pricing, not the idea of digital menu boards. Whatever, whatever. My miss Is how they could possibly talk about this and not anticipate that someone might perceive it like this and absolutely say as soon as he says that, say, this does not mean we're gonna raise prices immediately. Exactly. Freak out. But everyone freaked out.

Everyone freaked out. That's an incredible example, Jeff, because it's interesting. When you brought it into that space, the notion that jumped to my mind, Jeff, was the idea of fairness. And, you know, in the model of the Uber model, where, you know, you recognize that there may be fewer drivers in a specific situation, etc. That seems okay. I mean, it makes kind of logical sense, right? Surge pricing, okay, this ride is going to be a little bit more expensive because there's not just a plethora of options or, you know, supply that's out there for me to use. But when you said that, when I was looking at the headline that you wrote about the story, I just. It blew my. I had the exact same reaction as the viral. You know, sort of like the moment. I know I was at that specific moment, Jeff, I was, like, making my protest sign, getting ready to go out to Market street, because I'm gonna. There's no way I'm gonna sit there and, like, allow, you know, my burger's six bucks, but the person sitting next to me is eating a burger for $4.80. You know what I mean?

But they gotta go to lunch two hours earlier.

I know, exactly. Ah, that's actually. That's. That's exactly part of it, though. Right? But talk about this idea, though, because. Was there further clarification? Was it. I mean, did the higher ups. Okay, what did they say? How did they. How did they mitigate this?

So they. And I got. I've got some of the text here. So late yesterday, so after the whole big, you know, firestorm was up, they. They issued a statement that said, we said these menu boards would give us more flexibility to change the display of featured items. This was misconstrued in some media reports as an intent to raise prices when demand is highest at our restaurants. We have no plans to do that and would not raise prices when our customers are visiting us most. Excuse me. So what I think is that's a great statement. That's very clear, and that's exactly what they should have said on February 15.

Let me ask you this, though, Jeff, because I've heard. I've heard this cliche thrown around that even bad publicity is good publicity. In other words, you know, people are talking about it and that even that surge, even though there may have been a little bit of time that jumped in between the. The initial announcement and that reaction and the clarification that that's actually still. Well, I'm gonna make the argument to you that's actually good for the brand because a bunch of people talked about it. And suddenly things were a little bit elevated. Things were a little bit amplified. And now Wendy's has the opportunity to come and say, no, no, you guys misunderstood us. We. We're not doing that thing at all. Here's what we're actually doing. But now you've got more ears and more eyeballs, et cetera. Is that. I mean, is that a legitimate context in this particular situation, Jeff?

I mean, it could be. What I'd say to that is, you know, every. And this might sound cliche, but, like, every time you have people's attention, you have an opportunity. You have an opportunity to waste it. You have an opportunity to make people happy. You have an opportunity to make people angry. Yeah. So I think that, like, to your point, like, okay, everyone's paying attention now. Is this going to be like, are people gonna. Now that they've come out and clarified, is that gonna make. Remind people about Wendy's and go check it out?

Maybe, maybe.

But I also think that, like, they can kind of play the sort of mea culpa and say, you know what, guys, sorry, we freaked everybody out. Here's a coupon for. If you go on our app, you register for our app, you get a free fries or something. You know, I mean, like, just something that's just like, you know, what we screwed up. Here's the thing.

Yeah.

What this reminded me of is something that has kind of been a reality for so long, but it bears repeating because it also changes and evolves is the idea that with this 24 7, always on brand media landscape that we're in and culture, everything your company does is a brand move, is a reflection of your brand. Like. Like it doesn't matter. That analyst call might as well have been a TV commercial or a TikTok.

Oh, that's interesting. Yeah.

Like, people. It doesn't matter what it is, because people are gonna listen. People can do with that. What that information, what they want in public, and you don't know if it's gonna catch on or it's just gonna sort of disappear into the ether. Like, you don't know. So you really have to have that in mind of, like, when you're on a call with analysts, you're on a call with the entire world. Like, it doesn't your fan. Like, the people who go. Who might not understand the nuance, or let's say not understand. Understand the nuance of how analyst calls go. And, you know, you're talking about how maybe you can shift to local demands with these digital menu boards. I Mean, the dynamic pricing was not the focus of that comment at all. And yet there it is. It's like you have to be as culturally aware as you are, kind of financially, operationally, whatever, and they know that. But this was just a screw up. And I think that to your point about can they take advantage of it? Yeah, maybe.

Maybe.

Interesting. Who knows?

Yeah. Dion Samkins. Sir. What's your favorite quick service restaurant brand? Do you have one?

Probably Wendy's. I am a Wendy's guy.

You're a burger guy.

That spicy chicken sandwich man.

Nice.

That hits me in the feels.

So what do you think?

Is this a.

So Jeff thinks this is a mess. I'm feeling this kind of as a miss.

So here's the thing.

Yeah.

I said that the first time.

We're in trouble.

So all publicity is usually good publicity. Unless it's about the pricing.

Yeah.

Oh.

Cause I hear dynamic pricing and I'm like, for me it's like, okay, if it's dynamic. When I, when I think dynamic, I think up and down. Like it's, it's not static, it's moving.

Right.

If you're, if you're telling me it's going up and down, I'm not happy about that.

Correct.

If you're telling me that you, you've got your regular pricing, but the dynamic dynamic is that it goes down at certain points. Yeah, that's different. I'm all in.

Yeah.

So you got to clarify that because if it's, if it's, if it's publicity about your pricing and the prices are.

Going up, that's bad, that's a big loss.

So I'm going to say it to Ms. Because they should have cleared.

Interesting.

That is absolutely interesting. I love that idea. There's so many things that are going on out there, Jeff. And so I want you to start to look across all the stories that you've seen, including these three we've talked about, Jeff, and tell us what's sort of if you had to step back and give us the 30,000 foot view of the big takeaway or takeaways or learnings across these stories. I mean, we talked a little bit about fans, fandom today. We talked a little bit about, you know, entertainment and moving away from just strict one direction messaging to something that's more drawing consumers in with stories. And we talked about this idea about bringing in tech and messaging correctly. Let's say when you're trying to kind of reinvent yourself, what do you see as sort of the big picture things across these stories that are Kind of big important takeaways for brands and, or marketers.

Oh, that's a great question. I think I've had the perfect answer. I might be in a different tax bracket, but we'll say that to me, I mean it's a reflection of, I think brands are, and this includes brands with huge wide broad audiences like a McDonald's, like an LVMH, like a Wendy's, whatever. Like you do go broad. But I think more and more brands need to figure out how they're going to go deep. And is that, is that through Hollywood style entertainment? Is that through integrating or finding interesting ways to excite kind of cult favorite pop culture things? Is that, is that through fashion? Is it, you know, there's all kinds of ways where, but I think what brands really those smart ones are doing and more need to think about is like who, what, what's that? How can you sort of build fandom, maintain it? And I think more and more a lot of it is on different levels encouraging or at least acknowledging and thinking about how people participate with your brand. So like in the idea of, in the, in the, in the instance of say Wendy's, in this case, they're going to participate by freaking out and flooding your socials like this is, this is not a one way conversation anymore. This is. And, and it's becoming a more dynamic, you know, multi level conversation. Used to be, oh it's, it's a two way conversation now between social media and brands. Got it. That's been the last, whatever, 15 years.

Gotcha.

I think. But as we talk about fragmented media consumption, there's also fragmented media kind of participation. You know, whether it's use TikTok and, and, and, and, and Twitter and Facebook differently, these are different people using them in different ways. And I feel like, and, and most brands do this but I just think that the, speaking of dynamic, the dynamic ways these are being used, brands are really can find fun and interesting ways to tap into that, but they also need to be aware of how that can come back at them to bring in the Wendy's example. But that thousand foot view to me is really about building and maintaining fandom and how they navigate the participation side is sort of where I'm seeing some of the most exciting things happen.

Very, very cool. Jeff, thank you so much for joining us today. Where can our listeners go to keep up with you and your work?

Bass company.com thank you very much. Americus. Thanks Dion for your thoughts.

We really appreciate you sir. Thank you so much. Okay listeners, that's all we have time for today. Thank you all for listening today. We'll be back next week. Till then, this has been Marketing Matters. I'm Americus Reid, Business Radio. SiriusXM, channel 132.