Megan Rapinoe on Leading — On and Off the Field

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Welcome to the hbr ideacast from harvard business review. I'm alison beard. Here in the US and in many other countries around the world, sports have been on hiatus for a while due to the COVID 19 crisis. But in regular times, professional athletics serve as not only entertainment in our societies, but also as a way to learn about teamwork, leadership, and how to perform under pressure. Our guest today, Megan Rapinoe, cemented her place in soccer history or football history for those outside the US at the 2019 Women's World cup with some critical goals, including clutch penalty kicks. Rapino ready to fire this in, presumably with pace.

Low one and all the way in.

She led her team to a championship and won the Golden Boot. She's also been a fierce advocate for LGBTQ rights, racial justice and gender Equity. Back in 2016, she took a knee during the national anthem to protest police brutality against black Americans. And she's helped lead her team's lawsuit demanding equal pay for female players against the U.S. soccer Federation. I had a chance to speak with Megan late last year, five months after her World cup win at the Massachusetts Conference for Women. Here's our conversation.

Why don't we start by talking about performance under pressure? You had an amazing World cup penalty kicks, more goals. After that, the president tweeting you during the whole time. How did you become so clutch?

I don't know, to be honest. I think a little bit of is just like my natural inclination. I'm a pretty confident person and luckily don't deal with a lot of like, you know, anxiety or anything. But I think honestly, we put so much pressure on ourselves. We're constantly in the pressure cooker, whether it's, you know, our own self doing and training or whatever it is. And the team has been so successful for so many years. But I think also that is the expectation of perfection. So that's sort of always our goal. So it's kind of like if you've made it to the World cup on the women's national team, if you're a starter on the World cup as a women's national team player, I mean, you've gone through the gauntlet. So it's like kind of by the time you get there, you're sort of well prepared for it. And also like, I love it. I love big my like nightmares to play in front of 2500 people like especially now that I've played in these big games, I see myself as an entertainer along with an athlete, probably more of an entertainer than an athlete. I think I resonate with that a little bit more. So I feel like I just revel in those moments, having the crowd be what it is being like, in the spotlight when so often women's sports is not in the spotlight. So to be in the World cup in a moment like that, with all these crazy fans, and it's fun in those moments. And it's like, if you miss. I don't know, like, if you miss a penalty, if you miss a shot, you missed it, you can't go back. You can't do anything. You can just try to, you know, not make the same mistake twice. But I've lost a lot in my career. I've won a lot in my career. You kind of take it sort of all with the good. And I think particularly having the success that I've had in my career, I realize it's really not all about that. It's not about the winning. Oftentimes you win these games and you're like, okay, well, then. Then what? It really kind of is about the process and the journey and the people you're with and, like, getting better every day. And I feel like I just kind of take it with a grain of salt and realize that, like, I get to play soccer in front of 50, 60, 70,000 people and millions watching, like, in the world. Like, that's an incredible stage to be on. So I kind of like it when.

You have had setbacks, you know, being sidelined by injuries, big losses, missed opportunities. How do you recover?

I think it's really important to allow yourself to feel in that moment. You know, My first, like, major, Major one was 2011 World Cup. We were literally winning with, like, two minutes left in the game, and we ended up letting in a late goal, and we lost some penalty kicks, and that was just, like, devastating. But it's like, what are you gonna do about it? Like, you can't go back. So I think for me, just, like, letting yourself feel it, get your ugly cries out in the shower or whatever it is, and then just try not to make the same mistake twice. Like, just kind of enjoy the journey. There's always gonna be another game. We had the Olympics the following year that we ended up winning. It's sports, like, you're not gonna win every single game or have the best performance of your life. And if injuries is, like, that's an occupational hazard. So you can sit and Dwell and, like, be, like, frumpy, you know, for the entirety of your injury, or you can just get on with it and sort of find other things to fill your time and do your rehab. And I think that's just kind of life. Like, just because I'm an athlete or we're, like, in this public thing doesn't mean we don't, you know, struggle and do the same things that everybody else does. You're gonna have good times, you're gonna have bad times. It's more about kind of how you deal with it while you're in it and just, I guess, like, not taking it too seriously either. Like, okay, we lost the World Cup Final. Like, that's not the biggest deal in the world. Like, in our sport. Yes. But really in life, it's just like, you know, it's just one more thing.

So you have definitely emerged as the clear leader of the team. You're the captain, but you are also a. The star right now after your performance in the World cup, but also just someone who's pushing everyone forward. How did you grow into that role?

Growing is a great way to say it. It definitely was a process of getting in. You know, oftentimes in the national teams, the captains or leaders are sort of someone more in the veteran group. And part of that is just because you come on the team and you're young and you're like, oh, my God, this is insane. Like, you know, all these other players have been here for so long and try to learn from them. Obviously, I had really great mentors and the players that came before, but I think I kind of started to realize the power that I did have and then really kind of making a conscious decision, probably, like, 2016, 17, of, like, I need to take on more, not only for myself, to challenge myself, because I think that it has held me accountable in a way that. That I wasn't accountable before, just to myself and to my teammates. And also just, like, to be honest, it's a little bit of Groundhog's Day in professional sports. I'm like, okay, I'm in my 10th year. I'm training. It's kind of like the same thing. So emotionally and intellectually, it can get a little mundane. And I feel like this was a way for me to really challenge myself and expand myself in that way. And then I think I do have a particular charisma and trust within the team. I've always been a team first kind of player. I've never been the best player, and I'm not even sure that I am the best player on the team, but I certainly carry a lot of weight. And I think that as long as I can do that in a positive way, then I can have a really big impact in the team ultimately. Like, I want to win. I want to be successful, but I want everyone else to. To do it with me, and I want to do it with them. So I feel like. And oftentimes in sports, too, it's, like, so archaic and backwards and, like, just four decades behind. But it's like, when we create this environment where everybody feels seen and heard and everyone feels confident and everyone feels like they have a place within the team, and if a more senior player can be the one setting that example, then the whole structure and the environment changes within that.

So one of the most prominent leadership roles you've taken is in spearheading this push for gender equity in soccer. So tell me about why you made that decision and how you persuaded your teammates to come along with you.

Obviously, there's certain people that speak more in the media more, or names on the lawsuits, whatever. This has always been dating back generations, to be frank. This has always been a team fight. We've always made every single decision with the whole group in mind or with the entire group, which can be very difficult at times to get 30 people or 25 people on a phone call or in a room or whatever it is. But we really want to, like, get the best out of the whole thing for everyone. So I think, again, it's like, if my part to add to the whole thing is to be the talking piece of it or be the mouthpiece, then that's just, like, my job in it, because other people are, like, literally writing the structure of our CBA or the ones that are kind of, like, the architects of our strategy and philosophy and all of that. And, yeah, I get, like, more of the attention and, you know, even personally, like, more of the accolades for it, but it really is, like, an entire team process, and then sometimes it's, like, being the louder one and, like, in some ways, the more dominant one. Always trying to be conscious of, like, be dominant, but do it in the way that everybody wants. Don't just, like, do it for yourself. So kind of trying to gauge the whole group and then bring everyone along with you is a little bit of a challenge, because everyone has their own perspective. But I think we do a really good job of, especially behind closed doors, like, keeping everyone accountable and challenging everyone and making sure that then when I go speak or when Alex goes speak, we're Normally out in the media, we're speaking on behalf of the group, always.

One aspect of this that I think will really resonate with our listeners is the fact that it's not just about pay, it's also about resources. It's about marketing and training and development. And I think that's an issue that women in corporate America face too.

No, yeah, it's mostly about all of that stuff. Obviously, the pay. I think pay is how we say that we validate people in our society or whatever. So that's like kind of the hot button issue. But we've been saying for a long time you cannot have a conversation about compensation until you have a conversation about investment in the youth programs and in the medical and in this high performance and in sports marketing and in the branding of the team and in the ticket sales and in like the sponsorship. It's like everything. So it's like, yeah, you can say that the men have on average more attendance than the women, but it's like if you have 10 people working on ticket sales for the men and one person working on ticket sales for the women, then this is not a fair conversation. So in order to actually get to a meaningful and smart conversation about compensation, everything else has to be equal. Then we can get to the point to say, okay, now the market is set and everything is equal and the decades of gender discrimination have been equaled out and now we can talk about compensation. But until then, it's like, that's such an incomplete way to speak about it.

Yeah. You became well known as an activist when you decided to kneel in support of Colin Kaepernick in support of racial justice. So tell me why you made that decision and how you reacted to the backlash.

The decision honestly came very easy and very simply to me. I watch the news. I'm an avid watcher of SportsCenter and just a reader of the news. And I try to keep up on what's happening in the world. Seeing Colin speak, seeing what he was speaking about. We've, you know, just come through like an incredibly violent summer. There had been 2016, I think there had been five super high profile murders of people of color by police. The five police officers in Dallas were, were snipered down. So we just come through this really crazy summer. So it was like, it's happening obviously with mass incarceration. Like anybody who's like, says this is not happening, is just like, you know, willfully blind. So knowing all of that is happening, being, you know, have been in a position being a gay woman or gay athlete that said, like, hey, I don't need you to understand everything that I'm going through, and I don't need you to be gay to understand that. Like, I need your allyship and I need everybody to get on board with this. So for me, it was like, okay, this is something tangible that I can do. I thought as a. As a white athlete, it was also really important to show support in that way. I think so often people kind of shy away when it's not literally their skin in the game, but, like, actually if you feel like all the leaders in intersectionality, like, it is all of our skin in the game, it's all the same thing to me. So I just felt like this was something that I could help with. I honestly thought a lot more athletes would get involved. Certainly a lot more white athletes would get involved. How did I deal with the backlash? I mean, it was very. It was very difficult. Not from like a. I mean, from a personal stand, but not from like, oh, did I do the right thing? Or whatever. Like, I never wavered in that. I've never wavered in that. I feel, you know, even more solidified in my decision now than I ever have. But, wow. I mean, people were a big. Mad about it. They were just like, really, really, really upset. And obviously the conversation got twisted in so many different ways. And, you know, people saying, I'm leveraging this for myself or unpatriotic or all. I tried to just kind of weather it. I mean, obviously, personally, it was hard in ways. I didn't get dropped by any sponsors, but I didn't have any new sponsorships. I didn't play again for the national team or pull the shirt on until, you know, effectively the rule was made that you had to stand. They're denying that, but it's like, pretty obvious. But also, like, the people who I care about, the voices who I cared about, their opinions were very supportive. Obviously the people around me, very close to me, but activists and Colin and, you know, other athletes that have kneeled and social justice people and like, people who are in the trenches and just understanding, like, how important that was to have the allyship, but also just to. To say it, like, to say, yes, I see you and I hear you and I believe you. Like, I have not experienced racial injustice or racial profiling, but, like, I don't have to to say that you have or to believe you or to understand that it's actually happening. So, yeah, I mean, it's like, yeah, it was hard, but also it's much less hard than being racially profiled your whole life.

So when you talk to corporate leaders, now that you have such a platform about what they can do to promote inclusivity in their organizations, especially for their LGBTQ employees, what do you tell them? What advice do you give?

I mean, one thing I always say is that you have to set the environment prior to someone already being in the environment, like, they need it before. Like, you look at the NFL like, I don't think any NFL owner would be like, no, we don't want gays on our team. Clearly they don't. And they're not very welcoming to it, and they're not setting up the environment prior. So even that, even if it's just language or it's a training program that you go through. But then I think also in sort of the practical, like, what are your hiring practices? Like, how diverse is your staff? How diverse are the people that work in your office? Do you have any diversity training courses? Like, who do you do business with? All of these things, like, signal to people whether you're safe or not. And clearly, people don't feel safe in a lot of environments. So I think the proactivity of the people in the majority is, like, the really important thing, especially if you're talking about CEOs or the executive committee. Like, how do you speak to people? And what does the committee? What does the executive suite look like? Is it all people that look exactly the same? Because that's not gonna signal to other people that there's space for them to be there.

Yeah, I'd love to get back to team leadership. How do you motivate your fellow players? You know, this is a group of stars, people who have been the best at what they do forever and know how to play. So what do you do to get them going to bring them back when they're feeling down?

I think it really is about cultivating a personal relationship with those players. And it's not always, like, I'm not best friends with all the players on my team. I'm, you know, I'm, you know, obviously better friends with some people than others. Some of that's just age. Like, I'm over a decade older than some of these players. But in that specific sense, it's about understanding. Like, do I need to, like, be a person that's going to, like, get into someone a little bit and be like, this isn't good enough, or is that going to crush someone? Especially coming from me, Like, I have to understand if I'm a decade on these players, like, they Literally grew up watching me play and I grew up like watching these other players play and then, you know, having that experience. So what do players actually need? Because it really, it's like leadership style really isn't about having one style. It's a. It's about being shifty and giving other people what they need. Because ultimately the best thing is that everybody is confident and comfortable. So then they can just do the thing that they're good at. Obviously this team is ridiculous and everybody is amazing and they really don't need any like motivation. But if people are low on confidence or the coach isn't giving them what they need, what they need, or they're not playing whatever, then like just meet them sort of where they are and like understand what is going to get the best out of those players and give them that. Like, if, you know, I don't need to like be the player who's going to yell at everyone, like, if someone needs that, fine, but like, I don't really care what you need. I just need to know what it is so then like we can have that relationship, you know, going back and forth.

Yeah. Who are some of the best coaches or player coaches that you've worked with and what did you learn from them?

The really secure and confident and honest ones are the best. You know, it's like, it's tough with our group too. I mean, we're a group of very elite, talented, confident, like women. And if there's blood in the water, then it's, it's bad news. I think probably in the corporate structure that's in the business world, that's same way. I mean, our new coach, Blackko Anonofsky, had him for two years in Seattle. He's just a down to earth guy. Like, he's just chill and he's very secure in who he is. But he'll give it to you very straight. But it's like he'll also tell you like, wow, that was amazing. So there's that good balance. A little humor never hurts. Like we're in obviously a sort of high pressure environment and you know, especially all the stuff off the field, it can get very serious. So injecting a little humor into that. Mark Kakorian was one of the best coaches I ever had. He works at Florida State for a long time as a head coach there, he just was like honest and secure with himself. I think that's probably the most important thing, is to be secure with yourself. Because ultimately at the end of the day, like, we're just people and we just have relationships. So if you're bringing, like, other sort of BS into it, then, like, you're not going to get the best out of someone. And people understand that right away. And then it's like you're kind of talking about things, but you're really not talking about what you should be talking about. And it's like everything else just kind of gets in the way. So for me, someone who's brave and sort of willing to be honest and speak about that, but I think that comes from a place of security.

Yeah. So you seem incredibly secure in yourself. Confident, mostly.

Yeah.

That you know yourself. So this brash authenticity, which is great. I mean, brash in the best way, where does it come from?

Oh, gosh. I do think a little bit I was, you know, born in a confident sense, with a. With a flair for the dramatic and the entertaining side of me. I also think that it's like, I almost didn't grow up in regular society because I grew up around all of these other super confident, you know, very successful, powerful women, like, in my team. So when we go to, like, bounce ideas off each other or even just sort of the unsaid feedback that you got, it's always kind of like, is this too crazy? And everyone's like, no, not really. Like, this is just us. Like, should we file this lawsuit three months before we go to the World Cup? Yeah, probably. And so we kind of like, allow ourselves that space to just sort of be however you are. And, you know, obviously, I'm very lucky to be on, you know, an incredible team that wins a lot. So we get to have positive feelings about ourselves a lot, I think, in our job. And I think, too, it's just like being a public figure in whatever sort of way that is. Like, I really don't care about that. Like, I. I care about what my mom says and what my sister says and, like, what, you know, my partner sue says and what my teammates say about me. Cause I know they're gonna give it to me real. Cause they don't care if I'm famous or not. Like, no one that I really, really love cares about that. So I feel like I have this kind of, like, honest feedback loop. Too honest. Sometimes I'm like, I don't need this, mom.

Like.

Like, this morning, she was like, you look really tired. I'm like, I am tired.

That's the worst thing you can say to someone.

I am tired. Thank you.

I'm about to go on stage.

Thank you so much.

In front of thousands of people right.

But I think, too, I just, like, I don't take it too seriously. Like, I get to play soccer for a living. That's amazing. You know, I get, you know, the incredible privilege of being where I am now, being able to stand on this platform that so many other people have helped to build. And so just trying to take it all in with a grain of salt and, like, I'm no better than anyone else. Like, okay, I'm good at soccer. That doesn't really mean anything. We're all in this world together, and everyone's just trying to do the best they can. Everybody works hard. Everyone, you know, ultimately, like, is kind of trying to do the same thing. So I don't really take it too seriously or think that I'm, like, better than anyone else.

So you talk a lot about your family, your conservative parents, the conservative town you grew up in. Yep. But how did that upbringing affect your career decisions and the way you approach your life?

It's interesting. I honestly, I'm like, are you guys sure you're conservative? I'm just not like, I know you're voting that way, but I think you're ticking the wrong box. You know, I grew up in a really, like, open, loving, like, gender roles. My family were totally equal. My mom worked nights. My dad worked during the days. He's a construction worker. My mom's a waitress. So they both do everything. Yard work, like, housework, cooking, picking the kids up, driving us everywhere. They both work. Like, it's a sick. I don't know, to me that that sort of, like, shared gender role was totally normal. So in that sense, the other stuff, like, I mean, obviously I'm gay, so I didn't really, you know, we didn't talk about it a lot, but it was never spoken of negatively. And then once I kind of figured out I was gay, I was like, oh, okay. Like, okay, this is who I am. And then going back to writing, like, everyone knows me. So that was like, okay, we don't. We're a little unsure about the gay. But also, we know you. So that sort of trumps the not knowing about the gay. And it kind of, you know, normalized it for them. I mean, everything else, I don't know. I mean, I think I was just exposed to the world at a very young age. Even before I left for college, I had, you know, gone to Mexico City for soccer, and I'd gone to Bangkok and other cities in Thailand, and I'd gone to Europe and, like, traveled around the country and seen other people from around the country. So I think I just had a little bit more of expansive worldview than maybe some people did. And I went to school in Portland, so it's certainly been harder with the kneeling, for sure, and some of the racial divisions. And now, obviously, everything is divided, so that's a little bit difficult. But I also feel like I am who I am because of those people. Like, I'm in those people and they're in me. All the people that I grew up with and all my parents, friends, and people who they work with, whatever. So I feel, like, uniquely American in that way and, like, just as much a part of the American fabric in the very traditional American dream sense as everyone else. My family's, like, wild but super loving. I have a brother who's addicted to drugs and has had so many issues. Like, I've, you know, family members who are in the military. We're working class. Like, I'm who I am. It's just kind of like, this is what it means to, like, be American in our society. I guess you have, you know, the ability to be whoever you want. So for me, they're not at odds with each other at all. I think that it's all sort of part of my story, and I don't shy away from any of that. If anything, I feel like it's given me such a better perspective and a more holistic perspective of, like, what it means to be American in this country and informs the way that I speak about things a lot.

That was U.S. women's soccer team forward and World cup champion Megan Rapinoe speaking to me at the Massachusetts Conference for Women late last year. She's the subject of our July August Life's Work interview. This episode was produced by Mary Du. We get technical help from Rob Eckart. Adam Buchholz is our audio product manager. Thanks for listening to the hbr ideacast. I'm alison beard.