New Here: Getting a Raise Is a Process, Not a Conversation

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Hey everyone, it's Kurt popping into your feed on a Thursday to share a new show with you at Harvard Business Review. We are always looking for new ways. Ways to give you everything you need to lead from your first day to retirement day. And thinking about that first job. It brings all kinds of unique challenges that keep changing as the work world changes. It is so different even from my first job and it's hard to know where to turn for advice. So I want to share an episode of HBR's newest podcast, New Here. Think of it as the young professional's guide to building a meaningful career on your own terms. It's hosted by my friend and colleague Elaine Mata, and covers everything from interviewing to difficult bosses or just how to decide if corporate life is right for you. And while New Here is for young professionals, its lessons are definitely helpful for everyone. When I heard their conversation about asking for a raise, I knew you could find it valuable too. In this episode, Elainey speaks with author and personal finance expert Ann Lisgada and author, career advisor and past idea guest Goric Ng to get their recommendations. Goric and Ann Leese explain how to lay the groundwork, when to start the conversation with your manager, and how to navigate the negotiation that may follow. So give it a listen. Hope you enjoy.

Do you think you're ready for a raise? We asked you all to share your experiences asking for your first raise and Juan sent us this message.

The first time I asked for a raise, I was very scared. So it was really hard for me.

I've been working for around four years.

In this company and I started to understand how important I was for the team. You have to understand how valuable you are. That's like the biggest lesson I learned from that process.

Juan is right that knowing your value is important, but getting your first raise is also about being strategic, paying attention to what's going on at your company and with your boss and even your your boss's boss. Welcome to New Here. Honest conversations and practical advice to help you play the game called work. I'm Eleni Mata. If you're thinking it's time to ask for your first raise and you aren't sure where to start, this episode is for you. One of the biggest things to realize is that getting a raise is a lot more than just having a conversation with your boss where you ask for more money. It's a process that actually starts on day one of your new job. Today. We'll walk you through how to make the case for your first raise, from laying the groundwork to talking with your boss and the negotiation that follows. Here to help us do that are two guests who both have a ton of experience with career and money matters. Ann Lies Ghara, or Ann Lise wealth, as she's known on her podcast, is a certified public accountant who writes and educates about personal finance. She's also worked in corporate environments like Big five accounting firms, where she's learned how to make the case for her own compensation. And Gork Ng is here, too. He's a college career advisor and the author of a book that we think a lot about on this show. It's called the unspoken secrets to starting your career off right. Full disclosure, HBR published that book. But Goric started his career in investment banking and later worked in consulting, so he has a lot of personal experience to share. Okay, let's get into it. Before, like, I share my story about asking for a raise, I want to ask both of you, do y' all remember the first time that you had to ask for a raise in your first professional job in your career?

Well, actually, the first time was when I didn't get paid at all. It was a volunteer opportunity. It was for a for profit company. So they're making money and I'm helping them make money. And I felt like I was actually doing a lot more than even some of their current employees were doing. So I said, hey, I love to contribute, maybe longer term. And over the course of school and over the coming semester, I am evaluating a couple of other opportunities. Admittedly, they are paid. I'm wondering if we might be able to talk about a stipend, an honorarium, synonyms for a paycheck.

Not straight up. That's really funny.

And I think the first time it may have been a gift card, now that I think about it.

Really?

Yeah. If I hadn't asked, it would have still been zero.

Yeah. Wow. So, Ann, Lisa, I'm curious about your first raise story and then I'll share mine.

Well, sure. The first three years of my career were a little, I guess, different at most because the company where I worked, they don't give you like an amazing salary to start. But what they did do every year is they give you a really good raise. So I didn't really have to fight for the first, I want to say first three, four years to get like 15, 20% raise. So it took me to get out of that job and start another job and then have the surprise 3, 4% raise, because I was. You know, I wasn't used to that. So I. I wouldn't call it my first raise, but that's. That was the first time that I actually had to negotiate to get a raise. And, you know, it took a few months. I want to say a good three, four months. And I did get a nicer bump than 4%.

Yeah. Going into, like, my first professional job, that's when I had to negotiate and ask for a raise for the first time. And I remember, like, I had to call my mom and was like, so how do you do? Like, how do you word it? Because to me, communication is, like, the hardest thing. It's like, how do I convey this in a way that still sounds professional, but I still sound like me? I still sound authentic. And I, like, wrote everything down. I practiced, but, like, also improvise. So practicing the improvise, improvisation so I don't feel like I mess up during. During the conversation. Like, I asked my manager first, like, can we have the conversation? And she said yes. And then we scheduled a separate meeting to have the actual conversation. And I told her, this is how much I'm getting paid now, and this is how much I would like to have. And she's like, okay, well, let me get back to you. And I think it took three weeks to a little bit more than that. And then she finally was like, oh, congrats. We're giving you this amount. But it was, like, 12,000 less than what I'd asked for. My first instinct was, I would like to renegotiate that. And she's like, okay, well, I'm gonna try. And then she came back, and Chinji told me, like, I'm sorry, this is the amount that they came up with. I don't think it can go anything higher. But before we go into, what do you do when that happens? I was mentioning, like, one of my challenges is communicating and saying it in a way that sounds professional and appealing. I want to ask both of you, what are some challenges that you feel like early career professionals or somebody going into their first professional job face when asking for a first raise?

I think there's several challenges. One that's very common is wondering if you're worthy of that raise. Have you been able to deliver the type of work that would command that raise? And when you don't have anything to compare, like, if you don't have, like, a peer to talk to or, like, you did talking to your mother and getting advice from professionals, you might feel like you don't even deserve the raise yet. I think another challenge is you don't necessarily want to come across as someone who's only in it for the money. Right. So you might be hesitant to have the conversation.

But, like, I want to challenge this because aren't we all in it for the money, though? Like, we're here. We're like, we're working for the money, so why not ask for that?

Exactly.

That's how I feel, you know, but it is hard, like, finding that worthiness. And I don't know if it's like imposter syndrome or if you just struggle with advocating for yourself in general.

Yeah. For folks in their early career and honestly, for the rest of our careers and lives, it's this delicate balancing act of being at the right time and saying it with the right tone. What I often see are folks either asking too early or too late. Asking too firmly or asking too softly, what? Okay, so if we're talking about too early, I mean, I have lost count of the number of folks I've talked to who have this, oh, kids these days kind of conversation. Right? Like, oh, these millennials, these Gen Z, they're so entitled. They just showed up to work for two weeks and now they want to be CEO. That's an example. Right, of being too early, perhaps. Then there's the opposite end of the spectrum who are folks who may have that imposter syndrome, may not have an insider in the industry who can whisper in their ear and tell them how things really work, in which case they might wait and wait forever. And those are the folks who are waiting for too long. And then you've got folks who are asking maybe too firmly, who come off as if they're entitled to this promotion, or I demand this, or why isn't it that I'm getting paid this? And all of that is just a matter of tone of voice. Meanwhile, there are also folks who are a little bit too soft on the other end of the spectrum who end up kind of negotiating against themselves. I mean, I'm just even speaking for myself, right? Where I don't end up a question with a question mark, and instead I start negotiating against myself where I'm like, hey, what if we could talk about this? Oh, but we don't actually have to do this if you don't want to.

And then over explaining.

Over explaining.

Yeah, I do that so much.

Yeah.

And so it's really this delicate balance of both time and Firmness.

Yeah. So for both of you, when do you think is a good time to ask? Is it, like, after this one big project that you've done, do you wait for three big projects that you've done? Like, and all jobs are different. What should one person should be thinking about? Of, like, okay, by this point, I should ask for this raise. And the advice that I've gotten is, like, once your job starts to stem out of what your original job description is entailing, like, that's when you need to ask, do y' all agree or disagree?

I do agree with that, but sometimes it's also just a matter of, like, how long have you been with the company? Because you can join a company, and within a month or two, they already are giving you more responsibilities than what the original job description was for. And I think at that time, it might be too, too soon. I do believe that, you know, you. If you spend maybe six months, then you have a track record of performing and exceeding expectations, and you can make a stronger case. But also, I want to talk about the folks who have been at a company for longer than a year, and they're waiting until the next performance review. I think by then it's probably too late. I think you want to have the conversation at the beginning of the year when the goals are being set so that you know exactly how you're going to be reviewed and so that you can keep a record of how you're exceeding expectations, so that when the time comes later in the year, you can go to your manager and say, well, as I mentioned earlier this year, I really want to get a raise. And this is all of the things that I did to warrant me basically asking for a raise. Because the challenge with waiting until performance review time is that the budget might just not be there anymore.

Oh, dang. So it really is timing that's hard.

I think what I'm hearing from both of you is that there's timing with respect to where you are in the calendar year and the budgetary cycle, but also timing as it relates to your performance and your potential. Where I first ask myself, am I a high performer in the eyes of other people? Then the question becomes, are you also a high potential? And that speaks to the conversation you just had about, are you extending beyond your core job description, where folks are seeing enough potential in you that they're thinking, hey, you're too good to just be doing this? How about we also pull you into this other thing? How about you come join us at this important client meeting? And once you find yourself extending beyond that core job description. You're in many ways already getting a promotion, quote, unquote. You're getting a promotion in the form of additional responsibilities, which is a good endorsement that people trust you. That's the point at which it starts making sense to start asking yourself, hey, okay, I've gotten promoted from the perspective of more important responsibilities. Can now I ask for a better job title and can I ask for more money?

I wasn't thinking about promotion in that way, like where like, oh, you're getting asked to do more or like be part of more meetings. Like, I wasn't thinking about it. So I like that because now I'm like, hey, I've been promoted. I've been promoted a lot. I should be talking more.

Like, clearly I'm worth more to you now. Yeah, now it's all things.

Yeah, fair. I like that. I feel like I need to have you in my corner to be like, Eleni, this just happened. So you're worth more. I have a question from a listener, Harshini, and they said, I just started a couple of months ago. The salary listed was 1.5 times the 1 they offered me since I didn't have enough experience. My manager and my team is happy with my work and I think I'm delivering results faster than they expect as well. Do you think I can directly ask them for a raise in my salary to 1.5, the original listed salary, or how long should I wait before I talk about a raise and how much can I ask for? What do you all think?

If you're at the six month mark, you can definitely ask for a raise. You're able then to demonstrate the value that you've been able to bring to the company, to the team, and you are more likely to get a raise or at least be in line to get a raise soon. I think that it's very important though to also do some internal research and kind of understand in terms of your company, what is the policy when it comes to raises within the company. So if you already part of the company, it's unlikely that they'll give you a 50% raise. But once you have the data from the HR department and you know where the company stands in terms of how much you can get, percentage wise increase, then you know what the max is and you can tailor your ask based on that. But I definitely think that if this person has been able to exceed expectations, they've been able to deliver, they can make a case for this.

Yeah, I love the advice of doing some research because you really need to have a conversation before the conversation where.

Talk about it. Tell me about it.

Yeah, well, this is where a raise and the conversation that hopefully leads that raise isn't just something you want to wake up one day and say, okay, I'm going to set up a meeting. In an ideal world, you're coming at this having already had a couple of other conversations with folks around this person or this decision. And that means building allies and mentors at this workplace as early as your first day or even before then to understand how do things actually work around here. Because when I think about this particular case, it sounds like there's a policy, there's what's written, but there might be some ambiguity or some ability to bend those rules. And so the first thing I would try to understand is, okay, where does this experience clause come from? And do they have something very rigid, as in, you need to have two years of experience, a master's degree, and some work environments really are that rigid. But anything short of that, and maybe there's something about not experience, but contribution. It sounds like Harshini's situation is one where people were expecting that with experience comes a greater ability to contribute. But Harshini was able to contribute so much more despite the lack of experience. If that's the case, well, can we revisit this? Because the spirit of the policy is one of contribution and not experience. That's something you need to learn from a co worker who's been through this process before. You want to be armed with as much information as possible.

So that's how you lay the groundwork for getting a raise. Coming up after the break, we're going to talk about that big moment, the actual negotiation with your boss and strategies to get the outcome you want. Be right back.

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Okay, we're back. Let's pick it up where we left off. Should we go in with a set number when? Like going into the room to have this conversation, I believe you should have two.

You should have what you're going to ask and what your real number is. The reason being most likely you won't necessarily get what you want because remember, it's going to be a negotiation. So, yeah, my philosophy is have two numbers.

I love that.

Me too.

And when it comes to having those two numbers, there's probably going to be somewhat of a difference between the number that's possible within your particular context and the number that you're actually valued at with the market. And so another way of thinking about your worth, which is kind of at the crux of this whole conversation.

Yeah.

Is what else could you get? Now, the more antagonistic way of doing this, and some people, unfortunately, really are in the situation, or fortunately, depending on your perspective, is someone comes along, like a recruiter, for example, and says, hey, check out this role. We can pay you this much. And it's like, oh, my goodness, it's magnitudes more than I currently have. Those people go to their company and say, hey, I would love to really, you know, have this conversation about whether I could get a little bit more. And then the company shoots down the conversation, and then they accept this other offer that's paying them a lot more, and they come back, and then their company's like, oh, wait a second, like, actually, we could pay you more. In which case, you know, folks are then coming back and thinking, well, did it really take someone else to pull me away for you to really treat me with value? So that's the antagonistic way. The other one is to have these other benchmarks in your back pocket and say, hey, I'm evaluating these opportunities and. Or I was doing this research, or my peers at other organizations, or I'm deciding between. I have decided when I accepted this job offer, between this opportunity and this other opportunity, what would it take for us to get closer to or to match what I've been offered or however much the market is valuing me at.

Yeah. So how do you plan for that conversation? So you can sound confident and you just sound like you're ready when you're going in there. What is your advice of preparing for that conversation?

So there's a slight difference between achieving a salary match versus salary parity. So salary match is where you're matching something that's external versus. And unfortunately, this is especially the case for folks who are coming from underrepresented backgrounds and women, which is that they're just paid less than their coworkers, and that's achieving salary parity. So, hey, I'm performing at this level. My peers are getting paid this much. What would it take? And that moves us into that conversation where the general structure of the conversation that I found helpful is to say, here are the facts or here's the situation. This is what My request is, what would it take to make this work? So what you're saying is, hey, look, like, here's the world, here's the state of things. I would like to respectfully see what we can do to achieve this parody or this match. Can we please have a conversation about what this would take? So you're asking not necessarily for permission, but you're inviting a conversation, and it's much less antagonistic than like, wow, why are you not treating me well enough? Or I deserve so much more, which might rub folks off in the wrong way. And it's ultimately about whether the other person wants to help you just as much as they can help you.

I think it then becomes like the long game of how do I cultivate this relationship or this conversation so that I can meet this final goal? It is that sort of, let's plant the seed of the conversation. Let's talk about it. Let's cultivate it. You're. You're taking care of it. This is the conversation, and you're taking care of it over time.

I love that. Yeah, it does take time. And you're planting seeds and you're inviting a conversation which will probably lead, as was the case in your situation, to another conversation. To another conversation, yeah.

So what if your boss or your manager, whoever you're asking, seems hostile or disinterested in this conversation? What should you do then?

So is it that you maybe caught your manager at the wrong time, or do you think that they're just not invested in your development?

So let's say that they're not invested in the development.

I'll give you a very honest answer.

Yes.

I think that's when it's time to start thinking about maybe another position. It could be within the company or outside of the company. But I do think that if your manager is not interested in helping you grow, then beyond this raise, it's going to be a challenge for you to grow within the company.

Yeah. Red flag is so. Okay, so we. We had this conversation or multiple conversations, and you know how. How do we wrap it up nicely in a bow. Now I've seen on TikTok that like, once you give the amount, you just. Just be quiet. And I am trying to practice that because I'm also an over explainer. Like what you were saying Gork earlier was like, oh, I'll negotiate against myself and I'll just like, word vomit. And I'll be like, you know, it's okay, like, we could do this. So I've been trying in a lot of different ways. Just being like, this is my ask there. That's it. Which can feel really uncomfortable. But I think it, like, kind of shows poise and, like, confidence. Like, this is what I'm asking for. But that's my outlook. Goric, do you agree? At least, do you agree, like, how do you end the conversation?

So I do agree that, you know, once you give your number, you shouldn't try to negotiate against yourself. Like, you've already explained how you get to the number. So after that, it's time to just move on and talk about something else. So I would, you know, give my number and then see if there is any reaction from the manager. Typically, you'll get some type of reaction, and then I will try to wrap the conversation by asking when you can follow up. You know, I don't expect you to give me an answer right now. So when would be an appropriate time to follow up with you and pick this conversation back up? And I would, after the meeting, make sure to document what we discussed. You know, sending an email, keeping a nice record of the conversation and repeating the agreement that you had on when you're supposed to follow up.

Yeah. And when. So that just email would be like, thank you again for meeting me today where we talked about X, Y, Z. And just keep this as a reminder, like, we'll be meeting again at this date. Like, that's a good structure.

Yeah, I'll just add a little fluff around, you know, the fact that always you enjoy working, working with him, the company, and then just wrap it up exactly as you said. And the reason why I'm mentioning following up with something in writing is something actually happened to me, you know, years back, a few years back, so I had a conversation with my manager, and already, you know, he went back and talked to whomever he needed to talk to. So at that point, it wasn't, like, official. Right. But my manager told me at the time, all right, I already talked to the cfo. We good. We just need to get through this month, right?

Yeah.

And then two months later, my manager leaves the cfo.

Oh, my gosh.

So now I have to go to HR and say, hi, you know, we're working on this promotion. So, like, can you tell me, like, what's going to happen? And HR asked me, do you have any proof of this? Because we're not aware.

Okay. Ah, man, I would have cried. But thank you for sharing that. And like, yes, document always, all the time.

Well, it's a lesson.

Yes, yes. We're gonna lean into this last section which is the aftermath of what happens after this big conversation. And we have a listener question about this from Florian. And they said, what would you recommend if the supervisor says something like, we do not have the budget for that or we are not able to meet your expectations.

Yeah, I was neither an English major nor a lawyer, but I can't help but drill down on the specific wording that was used there. Like we like, is it. Who's we like, is it you? Is it hr? Like, is it your manager? Is it your manager?

Would you ask that? Would you challenge and be like, what do you mean? As me?

That's what would be going through my head. I wouldn't. This is not a litigation here. But that would be kind of my first like shower thought. Right? Is okay, how much of this is we can't versus I don't want to and then we can't or we don't have budget. I think I would try to understand that as well. One of the things that I think is just helpful to do in any of these situations is shower people with gratitude. Thank you so much for taking the time to look into this for me. I really appreciate your support and your advocacy. I'd love to learn more about the conversation and how I can best navigate next steps. Keep it super ambiguous. I totally made that up. So make this your own and meet with your manager and this could just be in your next one on one. I would keep it super open ended and have them kind of do the word, you know, the, the word vomit of what happened because you don't know what they're going to say. So I would just say, oh, thanks so much again. I'd love to hear more about the conversation that you had and what went into this decision. And then just shut up and let them. They might tell you everything, right? They might say, oh my goodness, I was really trying to advocate for you. And it was actually so and so. Or like we're just, we're just short on this budget line item. But like, let's talk in three months or three weeks or hey, let me revisit this conversation with this other person. Like, let them talk. Because you really never know where that conversation would go.

I have one question that's actually really interesting to me because I wasn't introduced to this idea until last year. I'm part of like a Slack channel for salary or like just money talk. And somebody had asked like, are there other things that I can negotiate for if I don't get the salary that I asked for? And I had Seen these options like, oh, you. If you work from home, see if you can negotiate like them reimbursing you for your WI fi because you need WI fi for you to continue working from home. Or ask if they can reimburse you for your easy pass. Like, I didn't know that you could negotiate for more things outside of money if you don't get the amount that you asked for. So is that a thing? And what, what can I negotiate for?

Yeah, that's definitely a thing, you know, and you can also negotiate for more pto. Also, if you can't get a salary increase, you can ask for a bonus because it doesn't come necessarily from the same bucket. And also the bonus is a one time commitment from the company, so it's worth asking. There's a lot of things that you can negotiate outside of the salary itself.

And what about you, Gork? What else would you add to that?

Yeah, well, you could ask for, for example, tuition reimbursement, budget to attend a conference, or particular professional development opportunity. I think the PTO piece is something that you can and should ask for. Like, I'm thinking of a mentee, a friend of mine, who was up against some really tight deadlines and a really stressful project and hadn't taken time off for a while and through just a casual conversation, ended up getting like double their vacation days after this major product launch.

Wow.

So yeah, if you're trick or treating and there's like no chocolate left, ask for candy. Totally.

I like that analogy. Oh, I love this. I loved this conversation.

Thank you so much for having us.

Yeah, this is a ton of fun. Thank you.

Okay, here are my three main takeaways that I got from the conversation. One, it's never too early to start thinking about how to get your first raise and figuring out that process at your organization. Getting a raise is a long game. It's going to take time. Number two, have a strategy for negotiating about things other than money and always follow up your conversation with an email. And number three, you are worthy. Asking for that raise is scary, but don't let that stop you. I also want to underscore something that Goric mentioned kind of in passing that is really important. Salary parity, wage gaps and bias are real. And we didn't even get into that as much in this episode, but we'll drop some links in our show notes to help you think more about it. By the way, if you want more advice for career and money, check out Ann Lise's podcast. It's called the Dreamers podcast and it's available wherever you're listening to this one. And did you know that Goric has a newsletter called did you know? You can subscribe on his website G O R.

I hope you enjoyed that episode of New Here, Harvard Business Review's new podcast for young professionals hosted by Elaine Mata. The first season just finished, so this is a great time to binge the episodes. They cover topics like networking authentically, interviewing for a new job, recovering from a layoff, handling a bad boss, and more. Episode five about navigating the perils of office etiquette. I especially loved it features comedian Sarah Cooper, who's also been a guest here on ideacast. Binge season one and share New Here with the young professionals in your life. Listen for free wherever you get your podcasts. Just search New here or you can tap the link in the show notes. We'll be back with a new episode of IdeaCast on Tuesday. Thanks for listening.

Most AI delivers promises Publicis Sapience just delivers enterprise ready AI that works. Not pilots, not prototypes. Modernization up to 75% faster cost cut in half billions unlocked in new revenue trusted by Fortune 100 companies because quite simply, what they build works. Publicis sapient AI that is built to deliver. Learn more@publicissapient.com.