Rob Lowe Names Names: The Power of ‘Screw It’

So you decide to do a sock and dance for the opening of the Oscars.

Can't dance, really.

Okay, okay.

I mean, I didn't get Footloose for a reason.

For a reason, right. And it doesn't go well, is what you're saying?

It doesn't go well. It doesn't go well. There was an open letter to the Academy the next day signed by like Paul Newman and Gregory Peck and like This was an affront to our sensibility. How dare you? I mean, I looked out in the audience and I saw— it was the night Barry Levinson won 10 Academy Awards for Rain Man. Yeah. And I literally saw him mouth, what the fuck? Didn't go well.

To borrow a line from Heidi Klum, in Hollywood, one day you're in and the next you're out. But not for Rob Lowe. He has been a fixture since the 1980s, and has had decades worth of iconic roles, from St. Elmo's Fire, to The Outsiders, to The West Wing, to Parks and Rec. In an industry that chews 'em up and spits 'em out, how has Rob Lowe stayed relevant for so long? It's not just his good looks, and yes, he is very good looking. It's something else. The real secret to Rob's longevity is something more powerful. As he puts it, he's got a serious case of the fuck-its. He likes taking risks, knowing full well that they don't always work out. But the thrill of doing something new is exactly the thing that has helped him find opportunities where others don't. In addition to the movies and TV shows, he's also the host of the podcast Literally with Rob Lowe and is host of The Floor, which airs its fourth season on September 24th on Fox. This is A Bit of Optimism. How old were you when you got famous? Young, very young.

I— the first time? Because then it came and then went.

Oh, really?

Yeah. Because I got famous as a teen idol, right? And then it didn't work. And what was the thing that put you on the map? It was a sitcom called A New Kind of Family, and I was 15. And so, you know, you're the— you're like the—

you were on the COVID of Teen Beat.

Yeah, all that, all that stuff. Bop. Teen Beat. Something about like, maybe just because I'm just a fucking Old pervert. There's something about—

Oh, wait, I just put it together. I never— wait, I just put that together in this moment. The minute you said pervert, immediately I understood. I had never made that association.

Team Beat?

You've just—

are they kidding with that?

Bop? But you were on the COVID That's worse.

She Bop. No, no, I get it.

But you were on the COVID That's the worst part.

Oh, yeah.

You were— so I was a beat—

I was a cover boy at 15.

Yeah.

Um, and then had an early midlife crisis at 17. 16 and 17 didn't work because they hired only 18-year-olds to play younger because of the child labor, right, laws and how long you could work on a set. And I just didn't work for 2 and a half years, and I thought my career was over. And then I got The Outsiders, and that was a whole other level of fame.

That's movie. That's movie.

That started it. Yeah. Yeah, uh, because you—

there's a— I have a friend, you, you're pretty— you're relatively grounded.

Like, I mean, I'll go with relatively.

It's relatively—

yes, relatively.

Because I know there's— I have a friend who has a theory that, uh, when people achieve fame, any kind of growth that they have ceases. Oh, I, I have— when they get—

when they— true.

Yeah. And so like child actors are screwed because they stop growing and they think that they think everybody says yes to is normal.

Yes, whenever I— that's 100% true. Unless you do a ton of work on yourself, you're frozen in amber, right?

The minute you get famous.

Yes, that's true. It's absolutely true.

So when people achieve adult fame, they're a little more grounded because they know where they came from. Hopefully they did forget it.

And they've— well, and they also have experienced just by virtue of the time they've experienced more life.

But your career is kind of amazing because you have— and this is a credit to you— you have been able to remain relevant forever. I mean, you were part of the Brat Pack back in the day. Yep, mid-'80s, mid-'80s, early '80s. Yeah, you know, John Hughes and that crew. Yeah, I mean, that's my childhood. I grew up watching all of your movies. And I think I watched the documentary. I watched—

Brad Pack doc? With Andrew McCarthy.

With Andrew McCarthy. And to your credit and Demi's credit, like, you guys, like, didn't get sucked into it. And it wasn't— you've maintained careers and relevance up until now.

We didn't let that define us. It didn't define you.

What, like, was there a strategy to remain current? Like, what is it that makes one actor be able to survive for decades and another actor be a blip in time, no fault of their own, just like they're super hot for a while and then they're just not?

Sure.

It's not that they're not talented, it's not that they're not good, it's not that they're bad people, it's not that they're hard to work with, it's just that they have their moment and then they don't.

Yeah. It happens.

Actors are products, you know, to some degree.

Same with singers.

Yeah. So what is it? Was it luck? Was it something you did differently than other actors that helped you, that you're still working and people still love you and stop you on the streets and all the rest of it? I mean, not nostalgically.

No, not nostalgic. In fact, the thing that I love the most is when like a group of 14-year-olds come up.

Yeah.

Because they've seen The Outsiders and like, or they've watched Parks and Rec. Yeah, or, you know, whatever. Being relevant is—

so was it, was it something you did, or was it— are you just like thanking your lucky stars every day that it kind of worked out?

You— it's like anything else, you put yourself in a position to get lucky, right? So one of the things is that I've, I've, I've always been a risk taker, and so if something's interesting to me, I'll do it. And, and so, for example, When I did The West Wing, that was at a time when if you had come from movies and God forbid you'd been in movies, but maybe you were in a sort of mini downturn, which I was, you definitely— if you did a TV series, you were admitting defeat, right? And, and there were—

I mean, I've talked to people, you could go from TV to movies, but you would never go to movies to TV.

Never.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And then And I remember, you know, when after I did it, guys like William Peterson, big movie crew, To Live and Die in LA, he did CSI. And Kiefer said, I saw you on West Wing, was like, okay, maybe I'll do television. He did 24. So I'm not saying I blazed any trail, but when people see somebody do it, all of a sudden the stigma comes off of it. But I was, I was able to do it because I just didn't care. And I was like, I've always had a healthy case of the fuck-its. And that really helps. And then the other thing is I'm naturally curious.

So you want to do different things.

I want to do different things.

I've never done TV kind of thing.

Never done a podcast.

Right.

You know? Right. Never. But, you know, like when I wrote my first book, people were like, well, you can't write a memoir because that's another thing people do when it's over.

Right.

Or when they need money, right? And I was like, well, it's neither for me.

Yeah.

And I don't care what people think because I think I have something to say. And now I'm on my third book.

When— where— how did you develop the case of the fuck-its? Like, where did it come from? Like, was it instilled in you and your parents, or did you, like, did you survive the, the career near-death experience and realize you survived, so you'll be okay kind of thing?

If you talk to my family, particularly my brothers, they say— they'll tell you I always had it.

Yeah.

And I think—

where are you in the pecking order?

I'm the oldest.

Okay.

I mean, I think, I think I've always had, um, a lack of fear around, like, sort of ambition, audaciousness, lack of fear, how— whatever flavor you want to describe, it's that same ingredient. I think I've— I kind of was born with.

So what— so give me an example of something that— a risk you took and it didn't work out. And it was like, oh, well, give me one. Just give me one.

I got a bad one. Agreeing to do a song and dance number to open the Academy Awards. Disaster.

I wish you had talked to me before that. I could have advised you against that.

What would you have said other than it's a horrible idea?

Horrible idea. Okay, so can you sing and dance? Let's start there.

I can— I'm an actor who sings.

Okay, so you're a double threat.

I can sing as well as Russell Crowe, let's put it that way. Hmm. No disrespect to Russell Crowe at all, but not— I mean, I think— I mean, Kiefer Sutherland tours a band. I think I could go up and do a duet with him.

Okay, so you just—

I mean, I'm no Bacon Brothers.

So, so you decide to do a song and dance for the opening of the Oscars.

Can't dance, really.

Okay.

Okay, I mean, I didn't get Footloose for a reason.

For a reason, right? And it doesn't go well is what you're saying?

It doesn't go well. It doesn't go well. There was an open letter to the Academy the next day signed by like Paul Newman and Gregory Peck, and like, this was an affront to our sensibility. How dare you? I mean, I looked, I looked out in the audience and I saw Oh, it was the night Barry Levinson won 10 Academy Awards for Rain Man.

Yeah.

And I literally saw him mouth, what the fuck? Didn't go well.

Okay, so you come off stage, you're fully aware of what happened.

Yeah. Here's the other part. You gotta have— there's a reason why a lot of actors are egomaniacs and self-centered narcissists. Because you have to have a little bit of that to inoculate yourself to the indignities that happen daily in a career where you're marked to market every single day, right? So that part of me was like, fuck Barry Levinson, what does he know? Do you know what I mean? And then so you go, you go backstage, and then you sit there and you're in the green room and there's Lucille Ball telling you that you're a wonderful dancer and singer.

She's making fun of you.

No, she loved it.

Oh really?

She— no, she legit—

she's also a comedy genius.

God damn it, I always thought she liked it. Fuck, you've totally rewritten my own history, Simon. This— the, the, the, the history I tell myself is that Lucille Ball— everybody hated it except Lucille Ball. Yeah, now it's just everybody hated it, including Lucille Ball.

No, she loved it because she's a comedy genius. Goddamn it, she legitimately loved it, young man. So Lucille Ball loved it. But okay, so once you— and then, then you read the open letter that it's an affront to the Academy and all our sensibilities. So is, is that a humbling, or do you have a sense of humor about it? Like, this is what I want to understand, which is I want to understand, like, if there are these peaks and valleys, and, you know, you have a healthy narcissism or unhealthy—

that I've been diagnosed as a benevolent narcissist.

Is that a diagnosis?

Well, that's what Rashida Jones says, and I think she's actually a learned woman.

Okay, so you're a benevolent narcissist, which means that you can take these situations and— do you, do you actually— does it hurt or is it funny? Both simultaneously.

Yes.

So is that the reason that you've been able to maintain a career for so long, is because you have a— as, as, as, as healthy as your ego is, you also get that it's a, it's a, it's a joke, it's a game?

100%.

Like, you're a caricature of yourself at times?

Well, that's why when, um, like, one of my favorite things that I've ever done was the Comedy Central roast of myself.

Right.

It's brutal.

Why do people agree to that?

Well, see, that's just the thing is like, like, why would you? So I told Cheryl, I said, they've come to me.

Your wife Cheryl?

Yeah, my wife Cheryl.

They've cut—

they came to me like 4 years in a row, and I was like, I'm not doing that. And then I remember Justin Bieber did it, and he is a huge star. I was like, you know what, if Justin Bieber can do it, I can do it. And competition, right? And right here, I mean, public, right? It's everything you— right, you've said about me. And Cheryl goes, you can't— I won't let you do it. They're going to— you're going to be humiliated nationally. I said, that ship has sailed. That's what I said. I said to her, and she goes, well, are they at least going to pay you? And I go, yeah, they pay me over $1 million.

She goes, oh, you're doing it. Everybody's got a price. Everyone has a price. The price of humiliation. Turns out it's about—

it's about $1 million for about 5 hours work.

Yeah, I would put up with a lot for that.

I mean, who among us? So, but that said, yeah, I've never had more fun. Never, never. It was so fun. And they eviscerated—

they—

our good friend Maria Shriver I invited, and she sat there, and there's a look— if you can, you can watch it on Netflix to this day, or wherever the hell it is, and The look of horror on Maria Shriver's face as I'm getting dissected.

I wish I had watched this as prep.

It's so brutal. But it's—

So where did you learn that? Did that come from being punched in the face a few times and learning, like, was that natural or did you— What I'm getting at is, can the rest of us learn? You are, you know, black belt jiu-jitsu, you know, your ability to weather the punches. And the question I'm asking, the reason I'm going down this path, is can the rest of us learn to withstand humiliation? And I don't want to say, you know, failures, but sort of like failures, failures, humiliations and failures.

They wrote an open letter, Simon. Paul Newman wrote an open letter.

Okay, so how did the rest of us learn to build the muscle of humiliation, to withstand humiliation and failure? Because ultimately it's good for growth, growth, mental health, and, and, and career longevity. So I want to know where it came from.

I mean, I think it's competitiveness. Like, I'm down but I'm not out, right? You see it with athletes all the time. Literally, they're down by X amount of points, or—

but what's going through your head when you're down? Because, because the difference between a great athlete and a, and just a very talented athlete is the mental game, not the physical Well, it's like somebody in shoot—

they say what makes great shooters is they forget the last bad shot.

Yeah.

So, I mean, they literally are impervious to the fact that they've gone 0 for 18. Yeah. They get the ball. They're not going, oh, I— what if I go 0 for 19? They're not. I mean, that's, that's a real thing.

I've been talking, I've been talking about this thing recently. I heard this guy talking about he wanted to understand what makes the best tennis players the best tennis players. And what he discovers is that the top 5 are always in the top 5. And like the next 20, 25 are like circulating in the 20.

That's right.

So what he's asking is like, what distinguishes the top 5 from everybody else? It's not diet, it's not discipline, it's not training. All those things are equals. What he discovered was the top 5 tennis players love the game. They love the game. So when they have a great shot, like they'll win the point and they'll say to themselves, oh, I love this game. And if they miss the point, They go, missed it this time, but just you wait. And what that does is it reduces stress and saves energy. And so individually it doesn't do very much, but over the course of an entire game, what it does— by the end they have more energy and they have lower stress, and so they can win at the end because they're just so much more relaxed and have much more physical energy than their opponent who's stressed out and, and, and tense and all the rest of it and tight. And so I'm wondering if it's something similar to that, which is when you get on your heels, when you win, you're like, oh, I freaking love my life. I love my career. I love this crazy business. And when you get hit on your heels, you go like, oh, that sucked, but I'm coming back. Is it the same? Do you have the same joy?

That's what it feels like. That's exactly what it feels like. That's what goes through my mind, what you just described.

So that to me is learnable, but that to me is also to see it done in a career that's not athletics, because athletics, it's immediate— point, point, point, point, game done, right? I find it more interesting in what you're doing because it's less, uh, immediate, and you have to actually— because that— those down periods can last weeks, months, years, years, years. And to be able to maintain that attitude of I'm coming back and be able to look past the fact that it's been a year and you've been out of work—

there was a time in my career where I hadn't been. Do you remember these things called magazines? Do you remember those when those were out? Yeah, so there was a, there was a time when I hadn't been on the COVID of a magazine, which is, you know, as silly as it sounds, a great barometer of your cachet and your industry popularity. Yeah, and I hadn't been on a magazine cover in 10 years, maybe. And I was like, I'm back, I'll be back. And then it was, and then there was another 5 or 6 year period not, and then back again. And I always wanted to be on the COVID of Vanity Fair because that really meant something. That was when I came up, like, that was only the biggest stars, right, got on the COVID of Vanity Fair. And I never got it. Never, never, never, never got it. And not only did I not get that, I didn't get very many at all. And then I ended up getting the COVID of Vanity Fair, and it wasn't for acting, it was for my writing. It was that they excerpted my first book. And that, which I always took kind of— talk about you can have all your plans, but the universe has something else. Like, if you'd have told me you're never going to get the COVID of Vanity Fair as an actor, but you're going to get it as an author, I'd have been like, what? But that's what happened.

So, but, but it was still the attitude of, I'll be back, I'll be back, as Arnold would say. But I am fascinated by this, this, because you come from a, an industry where the egos are fascinating. Fascinating, fascinating. My point is, is you have— you, you could make a study. You, you're, you're one of the very few, uh, actors who's had a career across so many, so many decades that you— I'm very curious how the industry has changed. Oh my God, when you were an A-lister with all the magazines and paparazzi following you around then versus now, like, what, what has changed of the personalities? What does it take to stay in this business? What does it take to get into this business? Has anything changed? The people who made it then, could they make it now? The people who made it now, could they have made it then?

This is a This is not all— this is a 5-hour podcast question, and I'm happy to go into it because I'm fascinated by it. It's— it—

okay, well, for me, I'm a culture guy, and I'm so curious how the culture has changed of, of, of, of show business.

So in no particular order, because I'm not sure of the things I'm going to talk about which is more important.

Yeah.

So I'm just going to start talking today. The audience is interested in you to the extent that they like you and are invested in who you are as a person, behind off-screen, as a person, as a brand, as your thing. So compare that to when people loved Paul Newman, or Marlon Brando, or Lillian Gish, they didn't know fuck all about any of those people.

No parasocial relationships.

Nothing. By the way, if you wanted to see them outside of what you paid in a movie or a TV show, maybe, maybe you saw them at the Oscars or the Emmys. Today, if you're not, And really what it is, is it's— so audiences need, audiences need authenticity today. They value authenticity above all else.

So all else— so before they were, they were actors, they had a job. Now you have a, you have a brand you're managing.

And that makes, that makes it sound—

is that right?

Yeah, but it makes— yes, but, but that phraseology, through no fault of your own, makes it sound more icky than it is. Because when you realize what is it, what's underneath it, is people in a world where literally you don't even know what the truth is anymore. If you get a whiff of authenticity, that is huge to people because you're the same on camera than you are off camera. Don't you?

I mean, this talking to you now, like you and I sort of shooting the shit before we turn the camera, it's the same, the same cadence, it's the same personality, you don't turn it on for the cameras. I mean, this is what you see is what you get. Is that what you mean?

100%. And that has always been my— a little bit of my secret sauce. It hasn't always worked in my favor. I won't name names, but people can do the math. I came up with a bunch of guys all about the same time, same looks, same level of talent, and one became a gigantic, gigantic iconic movie star, but the way that that person did it is they were a different person in private than they were in public. And I've just— which works for a while, which I just can't— first of all, I don't want to live like that. Yeah, yeah. But, but, but like, I just couldn't— I just couldn't do it. Do you know what I mean? Do you know what I mean?

The reason I keep scraping this— why I'm fascinated by this is, is less about Hollywood but more that I see that Hollywood and sort of show business is an exaggeration for real life. Yes, everything's exaggerated.

Yes.

And I think lots of people live lives where who they are publicly and who they are privately and who they are at work and who they are at home are— we're all slightly different, of course. Yes, you have to be. But, but there are some who are very different. And, um, and I think the concept of authenticity is something that we want at work, we want from our friends, we want from our companies, and it's— and we're, we're pushing it. And so I like looking at Hollywood for the lessons because everything is so exaggerated. It makes the lessons easier to see. So when you see somebody who's so diametrically different publicly than they are privately, like, what happens here? And how does it— why does it crash? And what kind of skills does it take to live an authentic life? And so is it just flexing the muscle of learning to withstand humiliation? Is it what we were saying before, which is love of life, joie de vivre, like, I love this and don't worry, I'll be back tomorrow. Is it that kind of grit? Like, I'm trying to just learn the lessons.

It's all of that. And then the other part is owning your flaws and being aware of what your blind spots are and realizing that those can also be your superpowers.

How do you define authenticity? When you say authentic, you say that the audience these days, the people are looking for an authentic personality. What does that even mean? The term is so overused.

You know what it is? It's like, what's the classic thing is, what is porn? How do you describe it? You know it when you see it.

That's not enough.

Or like, or what is modern art? You know it when you see it.

Yeah, but that's an answer people give because they are struggling to find the words to define it. If you can see something, you can define it. If we know what it is and we know what it isn't, then we, then we should be able to— like, but like, like, is the Sistine Chapel modern art? Clearly not.

What if it's a feeling? Because it's a feel. It is a feel. It's a feel. Like when you're with somebody—

how do you know a dog's a dog? You know when you see it? No, it's—

but you're not getting it. But you're not getting a feeling off the dog. You get a feeling off the dog. What we're talking about is a, a feel.

Okay, so what's the feeling? Like, I, I— how can we tell people be authentic if we can't tell them what to do?

I can tell you exactly. Do not self-edit. There's practical shit that I have had to learn.

So what does self-editing mean?

So if I have an— like in this conversation, if I have an instinct, something funny, I'm saying it, I'm thinking it and saying it before I've even registered that it's going to happen. As opposed to I haven't even thought about it. It came from somewhere and I just blurted it out. I've lived parts of my life where in a talk show format I wouldn't say anything until I had thought of it. How's that going to play? Is that on— is it on— is that off the topic we're on? Is it too mean? Does it make me— all of those things, I don't have any of them anymore.

When did that go away?

When David Letterman fucked me. Yeah, when I— when I did an appearance on David Letterman and he fucked me. He— there's a thing called a pre-interview, right? Do you know what a pre-interview is? Where you— and I get it. I have now, being a podcast host, I don't have this because I invite really good people. I don't have to— I don't have a machine where I have to have fill time. But if you do, you're going to run up against people who have nothing to say.

Right.

And so as a protection mechanism, these talk shows have a pre-interview process. You get some actor just another ass from a hole in the ground. They've, you know, they don't know what the fuck they're doing. They've got to promote a movie. They're boring. They can only— they're funny if somebody writes for them, right? And now you got to be out. So they have a pre-interview where you kind of agree on what the stories are going to be, and if they say this, you're going to say that.

And they do a little bit canned.

Totally canned.

Yeah, totally canned. Yeah.

And we can tell 100%.

Yeah, it's like comedians doing bits instead of answering questions.

So I— and, and we did it, and Letterman's producer was like obsessed with a story that I told them that I knew was stupid. Yeah, but they were like, say that story, make sure you tell that story. Dave loves that story. I'm like, I mean, I'm thinking to myself, I'm having this instinct as this is not a good story, right? I don't even get it. I don't. The only reason I mentioned this story is because they put me through a 2.5-hour pre-interview for an interview that might be 3 minutes long, right? And by the way, the message of that is you're boring, you have nothing to say. Keep talking, eventually we're going to get to a story that's worthy of the great David Letterman, right? So I come out and I'm— and they've got me— do you remember the Warner Brothers cartoons when like Bugs Bunny would fuck Porky Pig's head up so much they could pack different suitcases on top of him and spin him around, and then he'd walk ride off of a— out of a window of a hotel and fall to his death. That was me. They're like, here, do this, take that, and remember this. If Dave says this, you say that, and remember the one story about that. And then I'm out there, I tell the story. It's a long story, and they're like, really tell the story. I tell the story. And by the way, the story was about going camping with my dad, and we had to fly on a plane, and a bush plane, and they let me fly it, and I put us in a loop, and that was it. It was There's no end, there's nothing. I finished the story to crickets, which I kind of knew were coming. Dead, long, dead air silence. And Letterman looks at me and goes, you know what, you seem like a good kid. After the show, you'll come up in my office and we're going to work on that story. Fuck me.

Wow.

And so Was it— what I learned from that, yeah, is I'm going to trust my instincts. I'm going to say what I want.

Yeah.

When I want.

Yeah.

Because it couldn't have gone worse.

Yeah.

Checking the boxes.

Right. So even if you trust your own instincts and it fails, you're still at ground zero.

And it turns out, guess what? I've got good instincts.

Yeah.

Because guess what? You can't be a good actor without good instincts. You can't, can't, cannot. It's what we work with.

So you, you, you learn from the humiliation to say, you know what, I'm, I'm going to trust my instincts and tell my own stories.

That's right.

And so how do we teach someone to trust their gut without having to get to the point where they get— so have you been able to teach your kids? Have you been able to teach your friends how to develop this muscle other than, trust me, this is what happened to me, don't make the same mistake?

I mean, it's like, for example, if I were talking to a CEO of a company, yeah, and it was about like, how can I be better talking at a retreat, or how can I be better in interviews, right? Which I would say highlight your fears your flaws. What you like— the very thing that you don't want to talk about is the very thing that you need to talk about that makes you interesting and makes you relatable. And I think that— get off script, do something unexpected, do something unexpected.

By telling it, first of all, it takes courage. A friend of mine— so the word vulnerability and being vulnerable is now overused to the point where I'm not even sure anybody knows what it means. And worse, to many people, the word vulnerable is equated with weakness.

That's right.

My friend, I love this, she doesn't use the word vulnerable. She, for all the reasons, she hates the word. She uses the word available, which I've really taken to, which is make yourself available, right? Like, make yourself available. Show people that you're available to talk about your mistakes, that you're available emotionally, that you're available, you know, to show your humility. And the courage it takes to be available, to make yourself available, because to be unavailable is nothing but walls and smokescreens.

Okay, so let's talk about something that's adjacent to that. Like, people always say, the thing I like about Rob is he doesn't take himself seriously. I hate that as much as I hate the vulnerable thing, because I do take myself— if I'm not going to take myself seriously, who the fuck is going to take me seriously?

You're not a caricature.

No, but you know what I mean? But they use it all the time. But what they're saying is I'm willing to discuss and not hide my flaws. Yeah. I hate the phrase, he doesn't take himself seriously.

Yeah.

To the contrary, bro. Take this really— I mean, I've worked on myself. I'm not running nilly-willy around the fucking world. But the notion of self being self-deprecating, let's talk about that too, because again, If you watch all, all that my heroes would go on talk shows and be so funny about themselves. Burt Reynolds.

Yeah.

Um, fucking Kennedy's press. You ever see John Kennedy's press conferences? Oh, they're amazing. They're like one-man shows. He gets up there and he's making fun— he's, he's taking the pit— like the English would say, taking the piss out of himself. Um, that to me is so much more attractive than someone is trying to show you how cool they are.

Yeah.

All the time.

Yeah. And, and I think it's relatable. I mean, because we're all bundled— it's much more relatable when people are self-deprecating, or at least willing to point out their flaws, because we're all bundles of insecurity, we're all imperfect. And when somebody presents themselves as perfect, it actually makes them very difficult to relate to.

Yes.

You know, uh, where when somebody shows us—

well, because we also know— we also know it's not true, going back to— yeah, so you know it's not authentic.

Yeah.

You immediately know, well, they're not authentic.

Okay, so going back to what it takes to be authentic. So being authentic means willing to make yourself available, willing to show who the real you is, and that means talking about mistakes, fears, anxieties. I mean, you— and I think having a healthy sense of humor about oneself is a sign of great self-confidence, not the opposite. It's— remember, we all went to school with the kid who could dish it out but couldn't take it.

Yes.

And I have great respect for the kids who can dish it out and who can take it. Same, right?

And that's right. When you see— I'm just thinking of some, like, uh, Peyton Manning.

Yeah.

Or you see these athletes, you see certain athletes who get into a broadcast booth and they're just kind of— because they're, they're scared and they're trying to be perfect, they have an image to maintain and whatever. And then you get a guy like Peyton Manning, you just like making fun of his forehead, making fun of himself, and like, as well, I wasn't exactly the most, uh, nimble guy in the pocket, but this guy over here, like That's you. You— we love that. We love that kind of stuff. And I think that the great entertainers and the great public figures always knew that. And my guess is that's something that everybody could, could learn from a little bit.

Is there, is there a line though? Because we live in a world where authenticity— and I now, now I'm putting it in air quotes— uh, uh, is performative, right? Where there's some social media influencer or just somebody else.

Oh yeah, the fake man of the people stuff.

The fake— not just fake man of the people, but like, but just the, just the like, how many takes do I take talking about I'm struggling with my dot dot dot, you know?

Yep.

And it's like, like, where—

by the way, if I were, if I were running straight inauthentic man of the people game on you, yeah, which is the thing, I would have showed up not only without the makeup and hair people, but I would have showed up making sure you are very well aware that I'm, I'm such a dude, I'm just a regular 'Guy, man, I'm a man of the people, dude. I'm— I didn't— I'm not even sure I brushed my teeth today.' I could have run that one on you.

Yeah, it's all—

it's complete bullshit. Yeah, it's just a different type of bullshit. Yeah.

Has social media kind of lost the plot? Is it just becoming our new entertainment? Is it just the new theater where it started off as people telling their real stories and now it's people telling the real stories-ish, but it's scripted, it's lit, it's angled, it's, you know, I know where to put the— is it like everybody, like, everybody knows where their angles are? Everybody knows to lift the camera a little high, everybody knows to put the light behind the photographer, like everybody knows the basics. Some people know more than the basics.

My favorite is watching people pose for selfies on the street, and like every single person now knows what only we used to know.

Right.

You know, like the Olsen twins, when they— you know, they did what they did famously. They created the prune. Do you know what prune— men don't have to do it, but gals, if you're getting your picture taken, you— people say, say cheese. I don't get that. Never. That doesn't— but if you go prune, if you say prune, you get—

you get the perfect—

you get trout pout and cheekbones. See, the fact that I know this and I'm willing to share it openly You're like the magician revealing the secrets. Well, I have red carpet looks. I've got man of the people, I've got blue steel, and I've got iconic.

You have names for them? Yeah. Can you?

Right now?

Yeah, man of the people, please.

Man of the people is when you see like Tom Cruise at the rope line, at the line, like reaching out to sign thousands of autographs. That's— he's doing Man of the People.

Okay.

And then, and then, and then Blue Steel is like red carpet. You got your angles, you're doing your angles, step and repeat. Yeah, you've got Rob over here, Rob over here. You want to show the watch that they've lent you.

Yeah.

And you know, you need to show that because otherwise you're not getting a watch lent. So the question is, how do you get your hand up here? So it has to be you're caught mid Mid-move like this. That's a good— that's, that's, that's iconic.

Yeah.

Also looking up and off is always— the presidential photographs are always hopefully looking off to the horizon, but the horizon's not down here, horizon's up there. So you're looking up to the horizon. And so yeah, those are, those are the three. The best is— I, I told Chris Pratt that. We're mutual friends with Pratt and early on when he was just becoming a movie star. He literally called me— he calls me Rolo. Rolo, I'm in the car. I'm on the way to the red carpet. What are the three? What are the three again? Man of the people, iconic, and what's the other? I got blues. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, thanks, Rolo.

But this is the point, which is you understand it's an industry, it's a game. It's a game. There's a— there's a goof. There's a rule— role to play.

Yes.

And if you play a role with a nudge and a wink, This is the secret to longevity, which is take it—

you take it seriously, really serious, but not, but not too seriously. Well, you know, it's not self-important.

It's not self-important.

And the other thing is, like, I see there's another, there's another thing that the actors do where they go, they want you to think like, you know, I didn't do up this tie because, you know, I'm, I'm above all this.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You know, this, this, this premiere that I've flown to France to do. Yeah. And this tux. Yeah. That I've either bought or rented or had fitted.

Yeah. But I'm above all.

I'm kind of above it.

Yeah.

And you can tell, you know why? Because my tie's loose. See, just so you know, it's all bullshit. It's more bullshit than doing your fucking tie up.

You, you are going back to that tennis.

Now everybody is out there Googling I'm going to get a phone call from Joaquin Phoenix immediately.

That tennis analogy is—

Premiere, bro. You know you're there. You know you're there. I know you're there. Everybody knows you're there.

You don't mind pissing people off? You don't mind pissing people off? Or do they just know that you're having fun?

They have to. Listen, if the shoe were on the other foot, I'd be like, I fucking love—

Dude, If you're making— being made fun of your relative, I'm watching Family Guy. Because we can't make fun of Lillian Gish.

She's dead. Can't make fun of dead people.

Okay, fine, bad example. Okay, so I'm trying to—

okay, well, I know I gotta surface. So I'm watching Family Guy with my boys. They're probably 10 and 11. Dad, you gotta watch Family Guy. You gotta watch Family Guy. Funniest show ever. I watch— it's not the first episode I watch, but I— it's funny. It's a really funny show. And I'm watching it, and then there's an episode where Stewie The crazy little baby goes to Hollywood and he's in a makeup chair and this flamboyant man is doing his makeup. And the scene begins with Stewie going, "Oh, please just let me do one more. Can I do one more?" And the makeup guy goes, "Of course you can do one more." And he goes, "Rob Lowe?" And he goes, "Straight?" And Stewie goes, "No!" I never would have known it to look at him. And I thought it was the greatest. It's amazing. And I called Seth MacFarlane. Yeah. I go, dude, that's the fun. And we became friends and have done a bunch of Family Guy and we've worked together a bunch. But he's gotten a lot of phone calls that were, how dare you? How dare you?

But to be made fun of means you're, you're relevant. You're in the zeitgeist because nobody makes fun of people unless they're— you're making fun of the has-been-ness of them, you know?

Yeah. I'm not taking—

which is, which is, which is mean-spirited.

I can take a fake-ass shot at Joaquin Phoenix because he's one of my favorite actors, right? He's one of my favorite actors, one of the greatest actors we've ever had, right? He can still do his tie-up, but he's a great actor.

Yeah. If you weren't in show business, what would you be doing?

I may not be in show business after this interview.

That's true. You didn't go to college. You do—

like, that could not be more clear. He clearly did not go to college.

No, no, you.

Yeah, I didn't.

Oh, oh yeah. But the, the— I don't mean it in a in a mean way. No, no, I'd be just like, I'm like serious, like you have been an actor your whole life, like what else could you do?

Nothing.

Nothing. Like if this doesn't work out—

oh bro, I can't change a light bulb.

If this doesn't work out, this is it for me.

My dad used to say when I was 12, he used to say tons of supportive shit like this. You either better grow up to be a movie star or a prince.

And royal family wasn't available?

I tried. Go on. Princess Stephanie. I dated her for like 5 years— 5 months, whatever. Felt like 5 years. I tried.

I was like, you tried, Prince?

I tried. It wasn't— I'm not cut out for it. I would have liked the diplomatic community. That would have been great, like to have the pouch that you can put shit in all over the world and park wherever you want, just like in a red light, just get out. Not built for it. What was it about? A lot of long, late dinners with people that you don't want to be with, and nobody works.

But you have long, late dinners with people you don't want to be with.

Is there anybody else I can trash in this podcast?

I mean, this is the episode we can call it, the one where Rob Lowe trashes everybody who ever, yeah.

Am I trashing?

No, you're not. We're having fun.

Okay.

And we're pointing— we're doing authenticity. We're doing authenticity. We're pointing out the obvious. We're pointing out the things that everybody already knows.

That's the thing.

I think that's what authenticity is, right?

Which is—

which is like, why are you pretending to be perfect? We all know you're not.

Yes.

Like, we—

because we're not.

Like, we all know— we all know that everybody else tied the tie for their tuxedo. We all know that you didn't. Like, it's, it's a— like, either a stylist told you that would look cool, you decided it would look cool, or it's an affectation, or maybe it's really your personality and you don't want to be at the thing and you're begrudgingly there, which is a thing. Which is a thing.

I get that, you know, that I do.

And all you want to be is an actor, but your contract says you got to go.

That's real. That's real.

You got to go do the press.

I have, I have, I have respect and empathy for that.

There's a lot of—

I really, really— I just want to be really good. I have a grudgingly I have total respect and empathy for people who are not—

they're not marketers.

Well, and they're not comfortable in that lane. And I understand that. I really, really do. But I also understand it's a part of the job. So for me, it's way like meeting people on the street. I love people. I love meeting them. I love talking to them. It's way easier for me to take a picture to say hello than to say, I'm sorry, I don't take pictures.

Yeah.

Yes, I've seen people do that to kids in a wheelchair. Yeah, I've seen it with my own eyes. And when I go, what's that about? They say, if I make an exception here, I have to make an exception for everybody. And I've just made a rule, I am not taking pictures with people. I'll say hello to them, I'll have a conversation with them. Yeah. And like, at the end of the day, take the fucking picture and move on.

Do you want to hear the best story I heard? I just heard this last night. So Paul McCartney, arguably one of the most famous people in the world, right?

Amazing.

No one's Beatles-proof, as he said, right?

It's amazing.

That's what he said. Yeah, no one's Beatles-proof. And, um, people come up to him, they muster up the courage to come up to him. And back in the day, before there were cell phones, you know, can I, can I take a picture with you? Can I take a picture of you? And he would always say the same thing: I'm terribly sorry, I'm happy to talk to you, I'm happy to chat, but I don't take pictures. If I take one, it'll be madness. It'll be a feeding frenzy. Yes.

And, um, totally understand that, right?

And he just, as a rule, Paul McCartney doesn't take pictures. September 11th happens, and he's down there, and there's some firemen, and he goes down to them and says thank you to them, and they say, can we have a picture? And he says, of course, right? And he's There's a restaurant that wanted his picture, and he wouldn't take a picture, but he gave them the picture of him with the fireman, right? He's at the restaurant and somebody comes over to him at the table and says, Mr. McCartney, it's my wife's birthday. All she would love— she's a huge fan. Please, can she have her picture with you? You know, he goes, I'm sorry, I don't take pictures. He goes, but your picture there, that's with fireman. I took that with fireman, but I'm sorry, I don't take pictures. I'm terribly sorry. I appreciate you asking, but I'm sorry, I don't take pictures. Paul McCartney gets up to walk out of the restaurant, walks over the table, and sings her happy birthday. Okay, that is better. That is better than a picture. That is a story.

That's amazing. There's something about a photo— it's irrefutable evidence that you can share with everybody of the moment. I get why people want photos.

No, no, I have photos with people. Like, I don't get starstruck with many people, but there are some that I really—

by the way, I did one with Paul. The last time I saw— the last time I saw Paul was at his last concert, and he just showed up to the VIP. I said, I said, please. And it's in my last book. It's a picture of me standing with him. He's got the look of like, get it over with. But I made it.

But it's your picture.

You know what, it's my— and here's the thing is, because you have to— are these guys—

the other thing is, but there's a level of celebrity that is It's otherworldly, up— and of which he is one of the—

yeah, the other one was Redford I did it with. Yeah, where I was like, I just— I don't give a shit, we're— I'm, I'm taking a selfie.

But I think it's fun when celebrities are starstruck by celebrities. Yes, it's like We Are the World. They're all like, I can't—

what?

Like, they're all looking around.

My favorite documentary is an amazing documentary.

Why was Dan Aykroyd there?

That's what I say. I could have been there. I was—

I want to go.

I'm sorry, it's 1985.

Yeah, you were— hello. I know. The fuck?

It really made me request, like, really go back.

And we know you can sing.

And we know I can fake sing. And there's no bigger Springsteen— I was in the cut. I was like, but then again, Madonna wasn't there either.

Were you at the Emmys?

That was the American Music Awards.

Oh, it was the American— okay. Because they were all there because—

Dan Aykroyd wasn't at the American Music Awards.

I still don't know why.

Was he supplying the drugs?

They never touched upon it in the documentary why Dan Aykroyd was there.

No.

Does Dan Aykroyd know why Dan Aykroyd?

Maybe it's a blue— he does have Blues Brothers. That's, that's a real thing.

And he can sing.

He's the Blues Brothers. He's a real, like, sold-out—

that's true. Okay, I'll give him that.

Yeah.

And it was at the time.

I feel better about myself. Okay, thank you.

Yeah, that's right. You didn't have a Blues Brothers type film and you weren't selling out arenas for your singing.

I was fake playing the saxophone in St. Elmo's Fire at that very time.

Did you at least take some training of where to put your fingers, or were you literally just making up whatever?

A little bit of both.

A little bit of both. I'm always fascinated how much effort celebrities or actors, not celebrities, actors put in for a part. Like you have to learn the violin.

Like, yeah.

And you can tell if they're getting it, they're just making it up.

And now with AI, you don't need to do any of that. That's true.

But have you done fighting scenes?

Sure. Lots of them. Like, are you good?

Like, how many skills do you have?

I have. Oh, do I?

That you'd never thought you would have.

Can I tell you?

Can you sword fight? My— Can you shoot a gun?

My abilities. Are literally a mile wide and an inch deep. Like, I've played so many doctors. Like, if you were to, God forbid, have a medical emergency right now, I could— I'm almost certain I could almost save your life.

Well, I mean, just before we turned on the cameras, there was some smoke across the street, and you literally said, I've played a fireman Don't worry, it's okay.

It's white smoke. Yeah.

I mean, you literally, you literally did the— I played a doctor on TV.

And that's the beauty of what I get to do is I learn so much. I have a lot of knowledge.

No, actually, I legit want to know. I want to know the skills you have. We know you can act. We know you can play other people.

Shoot guns, ride horses. You know, I could put the fucking— I was watching Mission: Impossible, like, oh, they're going to put the pen in his lung. To let the air in, they did it. I'm like, I've done like rescue people.

What skills do you have that are applicable in the outside world that you learn because of a film or a TV show? So riding a horse, got it. You could ride a horse not on screen. Shooting a gun, great. You could shoot. You could— could you pick up a gun, assemble it, and shoot it?

Yes. Blindfolded.

Okay, that's a skill.

I could, um, if you were to tie me up Actually, no, later. We'll talk later.

Turn off the cameras.

If you're— if you're— if you were to tie my hands behind my back and tie my feet and throw me into the deep end of your pool, I could survive.

That's because it's like the Navy SEALs.

I played a phony baloney Navy SEAL. Yeah.

And so you went through the training for a few months?

Yeah, exactly.

A little bit of BUD/S.

Yeah, totally. So I can do— I can do— I can do ring pickups. I can do a lot of—

what's a ring pickup?

Ring pick— they don't do them anymore. They're too violent even for the Navy SEALs, but they You would surface in the middle of nowhere and you would tread water and put your arm in a, in like a sea thing. And then they, a Zodiac would come ripping down and would catch you and just flip you up into the—

That sounds awful.

It was horrible. And the Navy SEALs only do it once. What you do in the movie, you're doing it 14 times.

What movie was this that you played a Navy SEAL?

A terrible movie called The Finest Hour before Chris Pratt cornered the market on, right. On military entertainment. There were only very few Navy SEAL movies, and like, I would go to BUD/S and they'd be like, I love your movie. I'm like, it's the only— it's really— there's only been two Navy SEAL movies. It was bad, called The Finest Hour. Bad. But again, the gift of that movie was that I got to learn a lot about that world and make a lot of friends in that world and have a little footprint in that world.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's really one of the best things about the crazy life, which is you get to meet some amazing, amazing people.

Yes. Yeah, for sure.

Yeah. Who's— who— so Paul McCartney is one of the highlights of your career, meeting Paul McCartney?

Cary Grant. Um, you know, all those—

Mick.

I mean, it's— you get to meet your heroes. There are very few people that I haven't had a chance—

they always say don't meet your heroes, though.

I would say don't get to know your heroes.

Okay.

Meeting is one thing.

Okay.

Like, I— like, I'm friendly-ish with Bruce Springsteen. He's my favorite He's my guy, right? And it's gotten like, I know him enough now, like, like, I don't— like, it's like you just— it's, you know what I'm saying? It's like, it's hard. It's hard to like cry when he's singing The River when you're gonna go pizza with him later, you know what I'm saying? It's like, it gets hard. I just— I—

everybody needs—

everybody needs to be a fan of somebody.

Ruins the magic. It's like, I remember the first time there was this magic trick that I loved, super simple card trick. That a friend of mine used to do, and I begged him, I begged him to teach me so I could do it for other people. He's— and he's— he quizzed me, why do you want to learn it? I said, I want to learn it because I want to give other people the feeling that you gave me. He's like, that's a good reason, I'll teach it to you. And he taught me the trick, and it completely ruined it because it's not magic, it's just a trick. And now that I knew the trick, it— I've lost— I lost the magic.

Don't lose the magic.

And don't lose the magic, right? And I think, I think this is And I think this is to your point, which is you can meet your heroes, just don't get to know your heroes, because it turns out they're people. And, and it— you said the song loses its magic because you know the person. Yeah, some people can transcend it, because awe, awe of something or someone is a magical thing. Yes, and the best. And you never want to lose awe, because that, that's jaded.

Yes, yes. I'm definitely not jaded. I mean, it's weird, I'm cynical but I'm not jaded. Yeah. Is that, is that even possible?

No, I think so. I think— and it goes right back to where we started, which is you have joy. You have unbridled joy for life. You have unbridled joy for your career, for your, for your craft. You, you, you have fun and you take it seriously. But I think what you teach us, and this is what I'm getting from you, what I'm learning from you, you just can be very serious about something and have a lot of fun with something simultaneously. Yes, you can take life very seriously because life is serious, and you can have a lot of fun with it. And you can have the struggles and you can talk about your fuck-ups, and you can talk about your own demons, and you can have fun in all of that as well. There's absurdity in all the struggle, and there is realness in all of the— in all the fun.

Like, when I, when I talk about drugs and alcohol, there's nothing more serious than that. There's nothing more serious than if you know someone who's suffering, really suffering, with drugs and alcohol. Yeah, it's as serious as anything out there, right? And when I talk, share, speak around the country, which I do a lot, there are big-time laughs, big time, in that. Because if you can find humor in that, you can find humor in anything. Yeah. And there are plenty of people who can talk very movingly, and you get a lot from it, and you're crying the whole time. That's not why I got put here. I got put here for— to inject a different thing into the conversation. And it's taken me a lot of years to learn it and to learn that, like, to the extent that anybody has a secret sauce, I think maybe that's mine.

Stephen Colbert says, you know, you can't be angry or sad when you're laughing. I mean, literally, you know, the most difficult times where we're struggling or in sad— when— if somebody can make a joke, like, humor matters. It's a salve, you know. It's a balm, you know, like. And you can't be angry and you can't be sad when you're laughing.

I remember we talked— it's so weird that my grandmother keeps coming up in our talks, but when you were on my podcast, we talked about my grandmother And I'm just remembering when she passed away, I was blessed to be at her bedside. And she— when she finally passed away, there's that moment like, oh, now what happens? And a new nurse came in and looked at me and literally over my grandmother's not even still warm body produced a pen and paper I said, "Could I get your autograph?" She's handing it over my dead grandmother's body. Whoa. And I remember going, "Yeah, I don't sign in pen." What are you gonna do, right?

You get angry, but you have to see the absurdity. But this is the point. This is one of the things that I really appreciate about you, which is you see the absurdity of life and the joy of life. Woven in. It's part of it, right? Like, like, it's all woven. It's, it's a tapestry, and, and it's all for fun. And I think this is what authenticity is. And I think the reason you don't get in trouble when you say some of the things you do is because people know it's, it's just, it's life, and you're just pointing at it.

I'm never saying anything that isn't— I mean, I'm like anybody. I'm capable of saying things that aren't true. I'm capable of lying. All the things that human beings do because we're flawed. But when I'm doing that thing, it's— I'm—

they—

everybody knows that you're just having fun when they know that I'm right. But the other thing that— about longevity and like, you know, I did television when movie people didn't do television. Like, I host a game show. That would be career death. Like, and, and I'm sure there are probably some actors. I don't think Daniel Day-Lewis is looking to do a game show. But what I— when they came to me with it, the reason I did it was I had just come off of doing a one-man show, being in front of a live audience with stakes. Like, actual— it's live to tape, there's no second tape, there's 100 regular folks that you have to interact with. You don't know what they're going to say, you know what, it's a free shot on goal all the time, there's money at stake that changes people's lives, and you're the quarterback going, do we need to be funny now? Do we need to be— to embrace the drama? Oh, do I— do I have to reset how much money we played? And it's all happening all at once, live, in this enormous set. And it is so exciting. It's so exciting. And it's not at all what I thought it would be, and yet it's more than I thought it would be. and it's, it's an era, it's a part of entertainment that I'd never been in.

But this is, this is, so you, we talked about this. So you were a movie actor where it was career death to do TV. You did TV. You're a movie and TV actor where it's considered sort of career death to now do a game show. What is the reason you take these pretty extreme pivots where The common sense of the industry is you probably shouldn't try that. Like, what is the appeal of doing something so out of, you know, sort of off the game plan of the career? Well, or maybe it is the career.

I like to think that, that I, because I could smell bullshit a mile away, I can, and I hate artifice and pretension. So if you take those things out, then all of a sudden you're not judging a game show negatively. And I know what it means to people. Like, like, people watch The Floor in a way that they don't watch anything else I've ever done. I have 8-year-olds watching with their parents.

I love that.

That does not happen. They're not all getting together to watch Euphoria, right?

Right.

They're not. And, and the parents aren't there watching The Summer I Got Pretty or whatever.

Yeah, we live in a world in which everybody goes to their separate room to watch their TV shows.

That's—

and rare are the shows that a family comes together and sits on a couch and watches together.

And, and when I get that, and I get it all the time, yeah, that means a lot to me.

Rob Lowe, you are uniting families.

I'm, I'm bringing— I'm bringing back the family, bringing back one quiz show at a time.

Time doing the Lord's work.

That's right.

Of all the characters you've played, who's your dream intern, who's your CEO, and who's getting fired?

Oh wow, dream intern, um, Chris Traeger, Parks and Recreation.

Who's your CEO?

I'm going with Sam Seaborne. He was running the White House effectively.

Who's getting fired?

Oh, 100% my character I played in Californication. Eddie Nero. 100%. He's getting fired. He's going to HR immediately.

You've worked with your son. What's one piece of advice you'd give someone about working with family?

Do it whenever you can. It's the greatest gift. The shorthand, the pride.

Is it strange playing a character with your son playing a character?

Yes, because I mean, yes, very much so. And then, and then you can't help yourself. And also just accept the fact that you lean into the fact that you're still dad. Like, his thing is he calls— he would never call me dad on the set. It was always Rob, Rob, Rob, Rob, Rob, as if I was— as if everybody didn't know. I want to go, hey, they know, right? But we would be in a scene and I would just be thinking, I don't like his hair like that. He needs a haircut. Do you mean like, help yourself? Yeah, I can't help myself. Or like, I'd be like, I think he needs to engage his core the way he's standing here. So, and then we ended up writing that into the show. Unstable, still streaming on Netflix, 2 seasons available.

Anything that you've learned, career or personal, that just help you get through the day, make life a little easier?

Mm-hmm. Live in gratitude. Manage expectations.

Yours or other people's?

Mine.

Rob, such a joy.

So fun.

You're so fun. Thanks for coming on. I appreciate it.

That was great. Thank you.

A Bit of Optimism is brought to you by The Optimism Company and is lovingly produced by our team Lindsey Garbenius and Devin Johnson. If I was able to give you any kind of insight or some inspiration or made you smile, please subscribe wherever you enjoy listening to podcasts for more. And if you're trying to get answers to a problem at work or want to advance a dream, maybe I can help. Simply go to simonsinek.com. Until then, take care of yourself, take care of each other.