Desensitisation vs Counter-Conditioning: The Dog Trainer’s Guide to Changing Behaviour

Hello, dog peeps. Jack here. Just a quick one before we get into this episode. You may or may not be aware that when I'm not talking dog stuff with Max, I in fact interview people who are incarcerated in prisons across the United States on a show called One Minute Remaining Stories from the Inmates. And that show has been nominated for an award in America. And I would love your support if you've got 60 seconds to click the link in the show notes of this episode and just vote for my show. That would be amazing if you could. Thank you very much indeed. Oh, and don't forget to verify your email address. Otherwise, the vote does not count. Thank you.

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It's the Dog People Podcast with your host Jack Lawrence. Secretly, I decided to start this podcast for some free dog training advice. And Max O'Neill.

You would not believe how many people I meet. And I go, what made you want to get, say, an Aussie Shepherd? They go, I don't know. I go, had you met one before? They go, no.

It's the Dog People Podcast, the podcast hopefully giving you a no-nonsense approach to dog training so you never have to shout, it's okay, it's friendly. My name is Jack Lawrence and joined by, of course, Max O'Neill, the Down Under Dog Trainer. Max, hit us with it.

So a question I've been getting from a few clients lately, but it's also something I constantly see a lot of other trainers on Instagram and Facebook getting wrong is desensitization and counterconditioning. We've probably all heard of desensitization. A lot of us would have heard of counterconditioning. I'm going to give you an explanation as to what, you know, as to what each is and the distinct difference. So whether you're a pet owner or whether you're a dog trainer listening to this, it's really important you understand what to use, when to use it, and why you need to use each one. Because again, it's something I see a lot of confusion about. Like I said, at every level of training, even people who I go, oh, like you're a pretty solid trainer, but you really don't have your head wrapped around this. And if there's confusion from the professionals, there's almost certainly confusion at, you know, us at the, you know, pet ownership level. So let's break it down, desensitisation and counterconditioning. Let's start with desensitisation. Desensitisation is a process where we take something that our dog is inherently sensitive to and we desensitise them through gradual exposure until that sensitivity issue is no longer present.

So like loud noises, whatever it might be, storms.

So one of the key things there things that are inherently antagonizing to a dog. They don't have to have this learned association. Conditioning doesn't have to take place. Your dog, from the minute they hear that, see that, experience that—

Hate it.

Does not like it.

Yeah.

Like, for example, I'll have some people tell me, oh, my 9-week-old puppy needs counterconditioning to the, uh, nail grinder. They absolutely hate it. I'm like, okay, you've had that dog for a week. The likelihood that classical conditioning has taken place is very, very low. Tell me about it. Oh, the moment we flicked it on and it started going, they hated it. Cool. That's not a conditioned response at all. That's a sensitivity issue. How did it feel when he then touched it? Oh, I hated it. Screamed.

Yep.

Can't imagine it feels nice to have your foot vibrated when you've never had that before. So that's the distinct difference is when I see something like that is I go, okay, this is a desensitization issue. Over time, things can definitely evolve. Like that can become a very conditioned thing. That dog can start to go, well, I know that that thing that you bring out the cupboard and just the sight of it now, I'm developing a conditioned response to. I know that that leads to that uncomfortable sound, that uncomfortable feeling. And then we can start to see both. But it's really important to understand these differences because quite often you can go end up, pardon the pun, barking up the wrong tree by going down one route of counterconditioning or desensitisation when you might need to pop down the other. So that's desensitization. It's things that are inherently antagonizing to a dog onto one of their 5 senses. This could be transitioning to a new diet. Some dogs need desensitization to switching them. I have— I'll see dogs, and although nutrition isn't really in my ballpark and I try and stay in my lane, it's something that I'm pretty well versed on at this point. So it's something I will offer assistance in. And I see some dogs who the vet said, yep, cool, we've tested that the dog's allergic to chicken, so we need to move them off their chicken kibble to a beef kibble. The problem is we serve them up; they've never had it. They won't touch the bowl. So we talk about well, let's desensitize them. That's not we need to sit there and hold a kibble and give them a treat and show them hey, like this kibble's not gonna hurt you. Yeah, yeah, this kibble won't harm you. But I go like just start it off. Go make the bowl ninety percent chicken, ten percent beef. The next day eighty twenty seventy five.

Boom boom boom boom boom.

Yeah, yeah.

That's desensitization to say like a taste. Like I said, for sense for like touch sense sort of stuff, whether it's nail clippers. Hair clippers, even just touching a dog in a certain way. Some dogs naturally come out the womb sensitive to their head or their ears. And again, it doesn't mean they've always been abused. It just might mean they need to be desensitized. And like I said, you can also desensitize them to things that are inherently triggering to them. So a big part of our ProPups program we do is movement desensitization, is teaching our dogs, hey, some things can be chased, some things can't. So we'll get up in class and we've got our staff riding around on scooters and skateboards. Uh, we'll get out big scary things like wheelie bins and teach them to, you know, just not be sensitive to movement.

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It can also be noises. So we do like thunderstorm and firework desensitisation. But that's it, is pups don't come out, you know, pups come out the womb being quite often afraid or sensitive to these things. They haven't formed a conditioned response yet, but it can go there. And that's where we get into Counterconditioning. So counterconditioning is where our dog has formed a conditioned response to a particular type of stimulus. Hey, that thing leads to this. And quite often that might be a neutral, initially a neutral stimulus like a clicker. The first time Kira heard a clicker, she probably couldn't give a fuck about it. She's like, oh, Dad's playing with a pen.

Yeah.

But over time we form a conditioned association. So going back to our classically, or a classical conditioning episode or a Pavlovian conditioning episode. Is your dog hears a clicker, goes, what the fuck's that? I don't really care about it. It's not, um, I'm not sensitive to it. It doesn't inherently mean anything. It's very neutral. Yeah, whatever. But over time, between click, food, click, food, click, food, we perform what we, you know, gain a conditioned response to that thing. Over time, you'll click and Kira will come running going, I'm hungry. Like, where's the food? You clicked. And that's what marker training is, using our yes or whatever So what counterconditioning is, is undoing that association. Hey, you have formed a conditioned response to this thing. We want to undo it. And we do this a lot at work. Dogs have formed conditioned responses to the doorbell. The first time I had this just yesterday, the first time the dog hears a doorbell, they don't go, oh my God, I hate the sound of an F major scale on wind chimes on the doorbell. This is horrible. They just go, oh, there's a noise. And over time they go, hang on. every time I hear that noise, a man comes to the door. Noise, man at the door. Noise, man at the door. Conditioning takes place.

Yeah.

So they're not inherently threatened by the sound of the doorbell, or maybe not even a man at the door, but over time that conditioning takes place where they go, oh my God, the doorbell means a man's here, I'm excited, and they freak out. So counter-conditioning looks like, how can we undo that association? We don't need to desensitize them to the doorbell because they're not sensitive to it. They're not like, Ah, make it stop. It's horrible. They just think that one thing leads to the next. So for example, we have to do counterconditioning all the time with like fearful sort of things like doorbells. It can be things that our dogs were initially sensitive to, like nail clippers. The nail clippers started off as something the dog was sensitive to. It's like, hey, I hate when you do that to my finger and it feels weird and it sounds weird. And then over time, us merely pulling that thing out of the cupboard, the dog's not sensitive to the sight of the nail clippers. They go, oh, I'm conditioned to that. That leads to this uncomfortable feeling. So now I respond to that thing like that. That's conditioning. So counterconditioning is just simply undoing it. It can be for positive, like, you know, good things or bad things. For example, you might have a dog who's incredibly reactive to other dogs, and they've now got a very strong conditioned response. They see a dog, they immediately jump to thinking there's danger present, and we have to countercondition that, show them, hey, Just because there's a dog, it doesn't mean there's going to be danger. The dog's not sensitive to the image of a dog. Over time, they've performed, formed a thing. Hey, that dog means I'm going to be hurt soon, whatever. Or it can be something that the dog perceives as like a really fun thing. I have a lot of dogs who'll just shriek and scream in the car, and I'll speak to the owner and we're like, well, Debbie, the only time your dog goes in the back of the car is when you're taking it to the park. So of course we've got a conditioned response. The dog's not sensitive to the car. It goes, this equals that. And we need to start to unchain or separate that. So that's the difference between counterconditioning and desensitisation.

Is there a difference in approach to the way you would handle each of those things, or is it similar? It's just the 2 different terms.

It's not a little bit of a differing approach. If we've got a dog who's sensitive to something, then gradual exposure, showing them the thing in a very controlled dosage. So if I have a dog who's like, really doesn't like the feeling of nail clippers or something, you know, like a nail grinder, let's say. We might start off with just like 1-second touches on the nail without it even being on.

Touch.

Yes.

Food.

Touch. Yes. Food. Until the dog's like, oh, this is easy. Longer touch. Then we might start to rub it on the thing without even turning it on and getting used to that scratchy, grindy food. And we're slowly desensitizing to it. Then we might desensitize them to the sound. We might turn it on for a second.

Food.

Turn it on for a second. Food. And desensitizing, desensitizing. So It's all about that gradual exposure. And sometimes you can desensitize, or a lot of time you can desensitize entirely, where before long that thing means nothing to the dog. I was at a house the other day where this dog was completely freaked out, say, to pieces of paper, because like the way they shot out the printer and then when they picked it up out the printer and all the flapping, this golden retriever would just run, hated it. But we desensitized and we broke it down. We went, all right, it's the sound of the paper. The side of the paper, the movement, and did all that, and he was fine. And then other times it's— you can desensitize them to a point, but it might always be a lot for them. Versus counter-conditioning is showing them, yeah, showing them that picture and showing them, hey, like, I'm going to show you this picture and show you that the thing doesn't happen. So counter-conditioning might be— again, let's use the example of pulling the nail clippers out the cupboard. Oh my God, Dad's got the nail clippers! That means something bad's going to happen. Or my God, Dad's got the lead in his hand. That means we're going for a walk. Is I'll get owners, I'll go, all right, if your dog has become so conditioned to that picture, I want you every time you go into the kitchen to make yourself a coffee or a tea or food or water, pull the nail clippers out and just hold them in your hand while you drink your water, put them back. Do it 10 times a day. That picture will soon mean nothing to your dog. Counterconditioning. We undo the association. Or if we've got a dog who just goes, oh my God, like the leash is out, that means I'm going for a walk. I'll tell owners, if you, you know, every waking minute that you're home at the moment, carry that thing around. Carry it while you make your coffee, carry it while you eat your dinner, carry it to the bathroom, carry it back to bed, sit there with it while you watch TV. It will soon mean nothing to your dog. This means it'll be tough at the beginning because the dog will think 24/7, we're going for a walk.

Kira is one of those dogs that picks up these things real, like, like that. So for instance, like of a night sitting, you know, watching, I'll watch my iPad with my EarPods. I would put the EarPods away and the click sound of the EarPod lid closing. Kira knew that that meant it was sort of bedtime. But before bed, I'd go outside. And she wants to go outside to chase the geckos that she saw once. And now it's just like— so she, as soon as that click went, she's flying to the door and she's sitting by the door and she's ready to go outside. Like, just intense.

Yeah.

So then I had to, for a couple of days, just sit there and just through the night, just while I'm sitting there, click, click. And she'd get up and run to the door and I wouldn't move, obviously, and go nowhere.

Perfect.

Click. She'd get up and run to the door and go nowhere. Yeah. But it took so long before I could close it, click, and she'd sort of just look at me.

Counterconditioning can take reps to truly undo it. Can take a lot of reps.

But the problem, it doesn't take much for her to pick it up.

And that's, and that part's really interesting, right? So conditioning, it's so widely debated, you know, in terms of classical conditioning, how many reps it can take. You know, sometimes it can take 20 to 30, sometimes it can take literally 200 to 300. 400, whatever. It really depends on like the profoundness of the association. Like if you click, give your dog one food, they'll be like, okay, yeah, cool. All right. Yeah, sweet. Click, one food. Yeah. Okay. Doing it like that can take a long time. Whereas if you're clicking, you're like, jackpot, click, and you throw the food, your dog's going to become pretty conditioned to that very, very quickly. Um, same, like it's, you know, the ultimate apex of that, which we'll end up doing an episode on, is what we call single event learning. So same things with like electric fences. Your dog's not going to run into an electric fence 300 times. They're going to run into it once and be like, oh, okay, I am very aware of what that is. And I hate hearing the little hum of electric fences. Like conditioning can take place very quickly. So it's kind of a— it all happens subconsciously and our body just decides how important things are. If something's super important, boom.

Yeah. And that's why Kira probably picked up that so quickly because she knew that that meant she could go outside and chase the geckos, which for her is like, oh, it's amazing.

So she's clicking.

She's like, that means I get to go chase the geckos.

Let's go. Exactly.

And then once there was a possum outside once. So then, and then, mate, that was it. Anytime, like, as soon as nightfall comes, she's out.

She's like, right, let's go.

There's a possum here. I know it is because it was here once before. It's got to be here again.

And that's where we start to look at counterconditioning. Sometimes there can be multiple parts. We want to show, hey, I'm going to show you that the AirPods don't mean we're going outside, but also I'm going to show you that outside doesn't always result in chase. So you might countercondition the outside by showing her we go out, We're on lead, we correct you out of any predatory behavior. It's just a toilet trip. We go inside and that way we kind of counter-condition it from both sides. Um, versus, yeah, Kira's not sensitive to the AirPods.

She's—

she became heavily conditioned to it.

She's just neurotic, my animal. Yeah, she's just like— she's just— she loves that. It's like she— someone looked after her for us once. Yeah. And I forgot to mention, like, at nighttime she gets like— she just— she's in hunt mode.

Yeah.

And the lady messaged me, she goes, wow, she really likes nighttime. I'm like, yeah, she's She's just in hunt mode. She wants to find something to kill, essentially.

Yeah, she's into it. Hey, single-handedly keeping down the Australian gecko population.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Shouldn't say that, you'll have a phone call.

No, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Peter will be on to us next.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

WWF will be at your door.

Yeah. All right. Any questions on that topic? As always, jump on the Facebook group, The Dog People Podcast, ask your questions and we'll get them answered for you. The Dog People Podcast is a Mashed Pumpkin production hosted by Jack Lawrence and Max O'Neill. Edited, produced, and audio production by Jack Lawrence.

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