From Triathlete to Top Dog Trainer: Jamie The Dog trainer’s Journey

Hello, dog peeps. Jack here. Just a quick one before we get into this episode. You may or may not be aware that when I'm not talking dog stuff with Max, I in fact interview people who are incarcerated in prisons across the United States on a show called One Minute Remaining: Stories from the Inmates. And that show has been nominated for an award in America. And I would love your support if you've got 60 seconds to click the link in the show notes of this episode and just vote for my show. That would be amazing if you could. Thank you very much indeed. Oh, and don't forget to verify your email address. Otherwise, the vote does not count. Thank you.

Therapy's biggest impact doesn't show up in some dramatic breakthrough. It shows up in the smallest moments. You bite your tongue instead of escalating. You put your phone down instead of firing off that text. You say what you actually mean instead of what would hurt someone else the most. Nobody applauds those moments, but they quietly change your life. That's what growing feels like, and that's exactly what Grow Therapy is here for. Grow is therapy that works, covered by insurance. Sessions average $21 with insurance, and some pay as little as $0 depending on their plan. There are no subscriptions, no long-term commitments. You just pay per session. Grow connects you with thousands of high-quality licensed therapists across the US, offering both virtual and in-person sessions nights and weekends. You can search by what matters, like insurance, specialty, identity, or availability, and you can book a therapy session in minutes and begin in as little as 2 days, not the national 48-day average. See if you could pay as little as $0 for therapy in seconds at growtherapy.com/startnow. That's growtherapy.com/startnow. growtherapy.com/startnow. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan. Honey, that flu keeping you up?

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It's the Dog People Podcast with your host Jack Lawrence. You know, Malinois seem to be like the dog at the moment. Like, I think people see them on Instagram doing these incredible things.

Yeah.

Go, oh my God, that's awesome.

And then I get one like, oh my God, what the fuck? I did it. And Max O'Neill.

You would not believe how many people I meet and I go, what made you want to get, say, an Aussie Shepherd? They go, I don't know. I go, had you met one before? They go, no.

It's the Dog People Podcast, the podcast hopefully giving you a no-nonsense approach to dog training so you never have to shout, it's okay, he's friendly. My name is Jack Lawrence, of course, as always joined by the dog training extraordinaire that is Max O'Neill, the Down Under Dog Trainer. But Not the only dog trainer on the podcast today, Max, because we're joined by a dog trainer slash, well, I mean, social media star, 135,000, if you don't mind, Jamie the Dog Trainer. Welcome, legend.

How you going, mate?

Very well. Thank you very much indeed for coming along, man. This was, I mean, Max told me the other day that you were going to join us and I was very excited because of course I do follow you on Instagram and watch what you do. You're very, very good at what you do, my friend.

Oh, thank you.

Yeah, full disclosure, I've been pretty excited to have Jamie on for a while. Like I said, I'm a big fan of the way, uh, the way you train. And I know from some of the conversations we've had the last 6 months or so, most recently when we finally decided to tee up the podcast and figure out a date and time, and you mentioned just offhandedly, oh, I got into dog training this way, I was like, oh shit, I haven't heard that, that's completely different. So very much looking forward to how you became Jamie the dog trainer.

Um, I actually started mainly with my local obedience clubs. I had just— I was originally a professional triathlete actually before I did dog training, which is super random.

Calm down. Professional triathlete?

Yeah, I was, uh, traveled the world for about 5 or 6 years and, uh, come back and went to look for a normal job and then sort of got sucked into dog training. So my first mentors were actually more in dancing with dogs and agility. So I was sort of doing a lot of tricks and dancing with dog stuff on a Thursday night. And, um, to be honest, I owe a lot of my passion to dog training to Carly Conder and Heather Diamond. They're actually still into the agility side of things. And I sort of, yeah, got a really good start there with a mentor. And my first sort of intro to dog training was all sort of fast-paced heel work and different dance moves, really. So—

Wow.

And then I was sort of volunteering at the puppy school there at the same time. And it sort of all went from there.

Do you come from a background of having dogs? Have you always had dogs? Or what sort of drew you to the whole dog thing?

Yeah, we've always had family dogs but we weren't really, you know, super serious into dog sports or anything to be honest. So it was all just pet stuff. I sort of just fell on my feet with it a little bit. I got home and I've always been someone that if I'm sort of interested in something, I don't sort of do things half-hearted. I sort of do everything 100% and I, yeah, got home and always wanted a dog of my own and I was with my current wife Bianca and—

I love how you said current wife.

Current and future wife.

For now.

After I said it, I was like, that's not really a very good way to say it. But yeah, so Bianca and we decided to get a dog. And our first dog was actually— he's Neo. He's nearly 14, the old boy. And we got him off a farm in Bordertown on the way back from visiting Bianca's parents in Adelaide and bought him for $180 on a farm in Bordertown.

Oh, the good old days. Yeah.

Look, I wouldn't recommend doing that now, but As far as, you know, you can definitely find some very reputable breeders with good pedigrees and stuff. But yeah, Neo came off a farm in the middle of nowhere.

Yeah. Max and I recently did a whole episode on how not to buy dogs. And I think close to the top of the list was, you know, just picking up a mutt from a farm.

Yeah.

You're just not quite sure what you're going to get.

That's exactly what happened. And look, not to— I'm definitely not trying to promote doing that at all, but—

It worked out. He's probably my most stable dog.

He's had zero health issues. But, um, yeah, not— definitely don't recommend doing that though.

Yes.

So, okay, so you got Neo, that he was like your first dog, and he was the one that I guess got you to the, the obedience club. And then it's pretty rare to actually find any places that do dog dancing. I've like, from only like a slight look into it, I really don't see many clubs around. Because for anyone that hasn't seen dog dancing before, it is honestly—

it's insane.

It is insanely impressive for Like, for me, I rate that as highly as I do, you know, dog sports— IGP, KNPV, PSA, things like that. Like, I think it takes exceptional talent and work. And as much as I look at, uh, some dog sports with, like, you know, whether it's bite sports or agility or whatever, and go, God, like, it takes a super talented dog to be able to do that, I really think dog dancing is just as niche. It's one of those things where I think it only really takes, like, the best of the best and certain individual dogs under that That right training style to really bring that out of him, because it is incredible. So when you got to the obedience club, Jamie, and that was going on, how quickly did you get into that?

So it was actually— I started originally doing, um, I mentioned I did puppy preschool. So they did puppy preschool there on Thursday nights, and just after that, or even maybe just before that, was the dog tricks. And when you sign up to be an instructor, because, you know, with local obedience clubs, they, you know, it's all volunteers. So if you sort of— if you have a bit of a passion for it, and this is for people listening, if you've got a passion for dog and you go to your local obedience club and tell them that you want to become an instructor, most clubs will absolutely jump at it because it's all volunteer work. So they need instructors. So if you're passionate and go tell them that you want to, you know, you want to work with dogs, they'll help you out. So I sort of got into puppy school there and Kylie Conder, her name is, she sort of, when you sort of first sign up to be an instructor, they, you shadow someone for a period of time. And Kylie was the one that I shadowed through puppy school. And I always saw the trick trick and dancing with dogs, you know, people coming in. Yeah, you saw them there. And Kylie was into it as well. So I spoke to her while I was doing sort of the puppy school instructing and then got my own dog into it. It's actually a hard class to get into these days. For a long period of time, there was a big waiting list to actually get into it on a Thursday night. Everyone has a lot of fun doing it.

How did you go from, you know, sort of getting interested in doing the puppy school stuff and that sort of, to then moving yourself towards where you're at now? As in, obviously you're a highly professional dog trainer. You've got more dogs now. I do, yeah. And you moved your business online and helping other people. So how did that all progress from there?

I took a job very randomly with Petstock. They're opening up a few different stores in Ballarat and I applied for the puppy school position there. And that would have been in 20— I don't know, we'll say 2013. And I got the job. So I was doing puppy schools and stuff there and I had a bit of experience obviously doing puppy schools already. So it sort of you know, come pretty naturally to me. So, and I did that for multiple years. I enrolled in a course called Cassie, which is Canine Behavior and Science Technology. So I did a bit of that.

Nice.

And I also, at that same time, Petstock, if you're not sure, if you don't know, started in Ballarat. They've got a head office there, and they offered me a job because I was pretty much, you know, the only puppy school trainer in Ballarat at that point doing anything with Petstock. And They offered me a job basically writing all the courses. So while I was doing all this, and I jumped at it. So I was writing courses for puppy schools and dog training and all that sort of stuff and rolling them out throughout Australia. So I then sort of started traveling around and rolling out puppy school courses and all this other stuff. And then in 2015, I sort of went out on my own. So, and sort of did my own group classes and all that sort of stuff. So I've been sort of training on my own with my own business since about 2015.

That's awesome, mate. To do something that's, that, that many people have participated in is huge. And then, like you said, in 2015, you started your business, Southern Cross K9, right?

Yes, I started Southern Cross K9. When I first started, I started on a Sunday and we used to charge $5 for a class. So it wasn't much. People paid $5 in cash and I think we had like 7 or 8 people on the first class. And the way I sort of built the business, I just sort of showed up every week. So that was sort of the big thing, you know. posted on social media and just made sure I showed up. So, and we did that every Sunday and it actually grew really big. And then we started, we hired out this sort of shed at the Ballarat Showgrounds. I can't remember how much we paid for it, but, and we ended up, ended up getting really ridiculous, a bit out of hand. We had what we called a beginner class and an advanced class at that point. And we had sort of, you know, 30 people showing up to each class.

Wow.

My wife Bianca started coming along and helping out as well. So, we both started running these sort of group classes for a bit of Fun. And then in 2018, we thought, oh, it'd be really cool to expand the business out. I started doing consults and all that sort of stuff. And we opened a facility that does dog training and daycare. And then we sort of started in 2018. It was probably the most stressful year of my life. I was sort of working, you know, 70-hour weeks. And I can't— I wouldn't even be able to tell you how many hours Bianca was doing because she was a full-time nurse at that point. So she was doing like—

80 hours.

We'd show up in the morning and be at the facility till sort of 1:30. And then she'd work as a nurse till 2 till 8. And then I'd be at daycare the rest of the day and then do classes by night until 8:30. So it was a bit of a long year, but yeah, it all paid off in the end. And we sort of had, then we got some staff on board and we've had 2 facilities actually up until the end of this year with boarding and stuff. So we've had boarding. We've got a heap of different full-time daycare staff and a couple of different trainers. And yeah, we sort of It's a really good, it's a good vibe. We sort of do a lot of training together. We sort of train together outside of work, and then we also train dogs together in work. So, and we sort of bounce ideas off each other and all that sort of stuff. And then, yeah.

Therapy's biggest impact doesn't show up in some dramatic breakthrough. It shows up in the smallest moments. You bite your tongue instead of escalating. You put your phone down instead of firing off that text. You say what you actually mean instead of what would hurt someone else the most. Nobody applauds those moments, but they quietly change your life. That's what growing feels like, and that's exactly what Grow Therapy is here for. Grow is therapy that works, covered by insurance. Sessions average $21 with insurance, and some pay as little as $0 depending on their plan. There are no subscriptions, no long-term commitments, you just pay per session. Grow connects you with thousands of high-quality licensed therapists across the US, offering both virtual and in-person sessions, nights and weekends. You can search by what matters, like insurance, specialty, identity, or availability. And you can book a therapy session in minutes and begin in as little as 2 days, not the national 48-day average. See if you could pay as little as $0 for therapy in seconds at growtherapy.com/startnow. That's growtherapy.com/startnow. growtherapy.com/startnow. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan.

You have a tiny number of free zones right here.

Oh, look.

You just got added to a meeting about coordinating another meeting to prepare for the pre-meeting ahead of the follow-up meeting, which will, of course, require a recap meeting. And then another meeting. Hit your booking point, book with Southwest, and enter airplane mode. I don't know about you, but I get pretty excited when football season rolls around. That's why I always make a stop at Total Wine& More before kickoff. Whether it's craft bourbon, cold beer, or ready-to-drink cocktails, it's easy to build a lineup that keeps everyone happy.

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Cheers.

I guess in Australia there's, or I guess, well, everywhere for that matter, there's lots of people doing that sort of format of, you know, like daycare training, boarding, etc. But I think there's something pretty unique that you bring to the table in the way you, you know, like you, you get those dogs moving. And to get technical for a bit is you mentioned before about really trying to create a self-reinforcing behavior around the movement. And as we know, you guys, if you guys have been listening to the podcast for a bit, a self-reinforcing behavior is where our dog's not doing a behavior as a vehicle to gain access to something like their ball or toy or food or whatever, is the behaviour itself is a reward. And this can be pretty obvious for certain things like herding breeds. If you go and look on a farm, your Border Collie is not going to be, you know, herding the sheep just to try and get a bowl of food at the end of the day. When we do, you know, bite sports with dogs, the Malinois, you know, for them, the bite is the reward. But trying to get, you know, create as many self-reinforcing behaviours as possible is awesome because The dog loves the work, so it makes your training system simpler in a sense. And what I really like about the way Jamie trains, and hopefully you can go into, is even getting basic things like a dog walking in a heel, lifting its paws up, craning its neck up, which takes a lot of effort, but the dog isn't doing it to gain access to the reward. That is the reward. So I'd really like to hear about how you approach that and how you create like all this dynamic and movement and self-reinforcing behavior around things, because I think that's what people are really drawn into. with your channel when they see, you know, whether it's Waltie or golden retriever or your ride and sage work?

Yeah. Yeah. So from, even from a young puppy, my main goal when I'm ever training a dog is to get them to explore movements. And that's sort of my priority. I, people laugh because Walter at the moment doesn't really have a stay, which is, some people go like, really? And yeah, he doesn't. So he does have a very basic stay, but it's not very, it's not very good. But I sort of put a lot of stock in prioritizing movement. So I want the dog to see the movement as sort of, you know, a fun thing, as you mentioned before. And so it becomes intrinsically rewarding. So I want the dog to be really confident moving. So I do a lot of box work and rear-end awareness work and all that sort of stuff. And then once they're really confident moving, I'll incorporate a lot of tricks. And the dog over time starts to see the movement, I guess, as self-reinforcing is sort of the goal. And then you can sort of start to add that into a lot of my obedience stuff. So a lot of the time, if I'm doing a down stay and I'll incorporate it You know, initially into a lot of fast-paced tricks. I might do a spin and then a down and the dog holds the down and then I spring them out of the down. Or I might do some heel work and incorporate some orbits into the turns or something like that because I can sort of keep the dog's energy level up because that orbit, you know, in a sense, it becomes sort of fun for the dog to move around. So that's sort of my philosophy in a nutshell. And I sort of add a lot of the, what I would call static behaviors later on. So Riot, for example, didn't really have much of a down or sit-stay at a year old. But he's downstays now are really solid. They're very, you know, the downstays and statics and stuff are fairly easy to teach. So I prioritize a lot of the movement-based stuff and enthusiasm and engagement first, and then I sort of add that stuff in later.

Do you find there's specific breeds more inclined to that sort of stuff than others? Because I'm thinking about my dog. So I've got a cattle cross, whatever she is. She's much like your original dog. She came from a farm. But, you know, I look at her and for her, I mean, that excitement comes from— she loves to chase. She loves it. She loves a ball on a rope, chase that ball on a rope. And for her, it's just like, okay, I'll do anything you tell me to do just to get that ball. And I'm thinking, trying to transition her to go, no, no, actually this is the fun thing, doing, you know, the heel, the middle, the, you know, the spins and that sort of stuff. I think I was like, oh, I just wonder. I just don't see her ever going, that's the fun part. I think I feel like she'll always be a dog that just goes, just give me the ball, mate.

Yeah. Yeah. I think there's definitely, you know, genetic limitations with some dogs. Like, I don't think You know, you're ever going to turn a greyhound into, you know, a dancing machine or anything like that. But I think every dog, you know, can benefit from teaching them a lot of movement-based tricks. So even if you're not, you know, your goal isn't necessarily to add that as a, you know, an intrinsic reward, I think getting them to explore movements and things is going to be good for their engagement overall. I guess it's sort of how, you know, it's going to change how it looks. You know, the end product's probably going to change how it looks. So I've got a, I just actually Had a little Whippet. His name was Basil. And, you know, Whippets aren't typically your classic Dancing with Dogs sort of sport dog type of thing, but he really loved it. But, you know, he's got an orbit and, you know, heels and pivots on the spot and all that sort of stuff. And you can see straight away that, you know, he loves moving around. And you can sort of use it as a bit of a break from a lot of the, you know, the classic obedience-y sort of stuff that's sort of required in some board and trains or training programs that we do, you know, when you need— when you have a goal in mind. So I think, um, even if, you know, the goal isn't sport, um, it can be a good thing to add in.

And I think that's really— oh no, definitely, because I think everyone wants their, their dog's behavior to look pretty. You know, if we do a down, we want to see this laborious kind of fold. We want to see our dog like pull really nicely. If we were doing a recall, we want them coming back. And especially like, you know, when we start to get into more advanced behaviors, whether it's like heels and orbits and middle positions and etc., I think everyone wants that. And I think that's a really cool approach because the way you do it, you're basically showing the dog like, hey, like, yeah, you can do it this way and drag your feet, and then it's kind of not fun for either of us. Or like, yeah, we can really put some pizzazz into this. And not only is the dog going to start finding that self-reinforcing, but I dare say that the owner's then having a heap more fun too, going like, oh, like, I thought this was just like a really boring, monotonous kind of monkey drill, but now I'm getting into it and like there's some pizzazz and flash. Like, this is kind of exciting. And I think that's a really cool part to it too.

Yeah, the other part as well for me is the developmental part. So one of the sort of big things that I'm trying to, I guess, prioritize when I'm training a dog is I don't want to see any inhibition from the dog. And what I mean by that is, you know, the classic one that people teach as a puppy is they'll teach the dog to leave food. I'm not really big on that as a puppy. I kind of want the dog to feel really confident to push. So sort of all my, you know, I guess exercises are usually around the dog Being feeling like there's no inhibitions and they, if they want to be pushy, they can be pushy and I can sort of develop that in time so I can actually build some speed into it as well. So the dog is able to free themselves up a little bit and enjoy the exercise. A lot of the time when we're trying to build movements and the dog's a little bit slow, it's because, you know, they don't have the confidence or they just don't feel like they can push or they don't feel like, well, they've got an inhibition effectively. So some dogs can be a little bit sort of lure suspicious as well. So you start to, you know, lure a dog around and you can see they kind of think you've got an agenda. I sort of want the dog just not to have that feeling and just feel like they can just move around freely. So, and that takes a little bit of time.

And we often refer to that as having like a lot of engine and no brakes, or putting the engine in first before the brakes later. And it's, it's a really interesting take because I feel like as a dog trainer, and you might have had a similar journey, is you almost go— when you first start to learn how to put control measures on a dog and how to start to stop stuff, you go, oh my God, and you get a bit trigger happy. I'm going to stop them doing Counter-serving this, this, this, this, and that. And then, but pretty quickly, dog— your dog goes, okay, there's a whole lot of shit I'm not allowed to do. I'm gonna by default assume I can't do something unless you tell me. And then that can cause problems later. And I know I definitely ended up there with my old dog. I was— when we then tried and bring stuff out of me, he's like, are you sure? Like, you know, like, are you sure you want me? Like, I can just go and lie down on the bed and be really chill and calm because that's what you encourage out of me. With Nelson, it's been totally different. Like, quite often people will go like, oh my God, he just stuck his whole head in your pouch and like mugged you. I'm like, I know, wasn't that so good? Like, or, hey, he's jumping at you a lot. I'm like, yeah, I want that to happen. I want that expression, that pushy, because that sort of attitude you can sort of bottle and it's, and it's cool. I think everyone's got to go there. I think you've— I think it's important to know how to put those brakes on. I do see a lot of people having that approach you just mentioned, and maybe they've been shown how to do it, but they're not also shown how to put on the brakes. And then later on they've got this maniac of a dog who works beautifully when they're working, but they can be a lot. But it's, yeah, it's always a really interesting take. I love, I love hearing people's perspective on that.

Tricky balance too. It is. I mean, 'cause I'm, again, I think about my own dog and I'm just like, you know, and you're right. There's certain things she does that I'm just like, well, I don't want that, but I want you to be more excited when we're doing this. And then she almost looks confused. She's like, what do you want from me, mate? You want me to go nuts or you want me to be chill? Yeah.

Yeah. Look, that's sort of, you know, even though it's sort of my philosophy, I'm not, you know, fixed on it in that, you know, I'm still a fan of training the dog in front of you. And there's some dogs, you know, there's obviously some arguments for and against training every dog as a sport dog. So I think, you know, some clients come to me and I know straight away that, you know, probably raising this dog like a sports dog probably isn't the best way to go. And you can still sort of, you know, there's some nuance in it and you can encourage, you know, some free movement while teaching, you know, some specific, you know, I guess what we call capping exercises or, you know, exercises where we're sort of creating some inhibitions.

It's interesting because actually Max and I had this discussion the other day where I said to him, I said, sometimes I worry that I'm trying to make Kira a dog that she's not. Like, I feel like, I feel like I don't have focus either. And it's not fair on her because like I've taught her very much like a gundog. I mean, she's a cattle dog, but I, you know, I'm just like, well, we don't have sheep to herd, so why don't we try the gundog stuff? So I taught her in the gundog stuff to retrieve and all that sort of stuff. And she's done really, really well at it. And I'm like, okay, well, we've done that. Why don't we see if you maybe do a little bit of protection stuff?

Yeah.

So I just feel like, like I don't have the direction and I'm like trying to push her to do all these different bits and pieces. I mean, that might be a good point. It's like, you know, maybe have an idea of what you want from your dog and stick to it. And don't be like me and jump around like a lunatic going, well, let's try this and let's try that and let's try this. Let's try that.

Yeah, exactly. I think it's funny you say that. A lot of people, when I bring out Walter, actually is always like, oh, he acts like a shepherd. And I always make a joke that he spends too much time around my other 2 shepherds. But I think it's probably just the training, I guess, over time. If you see him move, he very much moves like a shepherd as opposed to a golden retriever. Which is just quite interesting. But yeah, Walter's always grown up around Sage and Riot too much.

You know, I've shown quite a few clients Walter who go, oh, you know, I just don't think I'll ever get anything really nice movement-wise out of my golden retriever. I'm like, hang on, hold my beer. You got to see this dog on Instagram. Yeah, Walter's a really, really cool dog. You've got him going really nicely.

Yeah, look, it's not just one off either. I've got I've got another golden Winnie who you'll probably see. She's older now, so she's nine. She moves pretty similar to Walter as well, similar drives and all that sort of stuff. And they're both show line golden. So they're not, they don't come from field stock or anything like that. So it's definitely possible to get it going. You just need to, just need to develop it really.

How many dogs have you got?

I've got a few.

Yeah. I mean, you keep listing, you keep, I've got this one. I mean, I do have one of these. Oh, and I've got a couple of Shepherds as well. I'm like, my Lord, what's going on?

So I've got, I've got, I've got 7 dogs.

7?

I have. So, but 3 of them are extremely old. So So I've got 3 seniors. So a few 14-year-olds and a 13-year-old. So look, they just didn't, they just love roaming around the property on the couch. But Winnie's now 9 and I've got, yeah, I guess 3 dogs that are, I guess you'd say, that are not seniors. So that are kind of actively working. Winnie's still got, you know, all the drive in the world to keep. I reckon she'll still be able to compete for another year or so yet. But yeah, there is a few dogs roaming around my house.

So do you have a favorite breed out of all the dogs you've had over the years? Like, is there one that you enjoy working with the most?

I am a bit of a Border Collie guy. I do like Border Collies. Just, they're a bit different to your Shepherds. They're both, you know, both got a lot of drive, but I find the Border Collies will just sort of putt along all day kind of thing. The Shepherds will give you a lot more quicker, but yeah, they could be a little bit more I guess you've got to sort of watch a lot of their emotional state and all that sort of stuff a little bit more in Shepherds, I find. Border Collies are kind of—

Max has warned me about that. Yeah, because I've been thinking of tossing up the next dog and I was like, oh, maybe a Shepherd. He's like, just be careful, they can be rather emotional.

Yeah, yeah. You sort of got to structure your sessions in a way that takes that into consideration. Whereas I feel like with Border Collies, you can sort of, you bring them out and they'll give you the same thing every day. They sort of, but, you know, very different dog as well. in a few different ways. Obviously, you know, the power you get from a German Shepherd or a Mal is a lot different. So perfect.

All right. Well, Jamie the Dog Trainer is going to be coming back on another episode because we want to talk about his— because we are doing a series on the sports we can get into with our dogs. So, but for now, make sure you follow him on Instagram, Jamie the Dog Trainer, to watch the incredible stuff that he does with his dogs. 7 of them. You need your head read, sir.

Yeah, yeah. Just if you get around the house, it's chaos. I've got 2 kids too.

How old are your kids though?

One's 6 and the other one is only 6 months. So yeah.

Okay. You definitely need your head read. I've got 2 kids and 1 dog and I'm going, I don't even know if I can handle another dog, to be honest.

Yeah. Yeah. So no, I owe a lot to Bianca. She does a lot.

The current wife.

To help out as well.

You buy any more dogs, she might not be the current wife.

No, there's no more. No more at all. Yeah. So that's I think yeah, that's enough till the next one.

All right, Jamie the dog trainer. Thank you very much indeed for joining us.

Thanks so much, mate.

The Dog People Podcast is a mashed pumpkin production hosted by Jack Lawrence and Max O'Neill, edited, produced, and audio production by Jack Lawrence.

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