Help! my dog is resource gaurding - Q&A

Hello, dog peeps. Jack here. Just a quick one before we get into this episode. You may or may not be aware that when I'm not talking dog stuff with Max, I in fact interview people who are incarcerated in prisons across the United States on a show called One Minute Remaining: Stories from the Inmates. And that show has been nominated for an award in America. And I would love your support if you've got 60 seconds to click the link in the show notes of this episode and just vote for my show. That would be amazing if you could. Thank you very much indeed. Oh, and don't forget to verify your email address. Otherwise, the vote does not count.

Thank you.

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It's the Dog People Podcast with your host Jack Lawrence. You know, Malinois seem to be like the dog at the moment. Like, I think people see them on Instagram doing these incredible things. Yeah. Go, oh my God, that's awesome. And then I get one like, oh my God, what the fuck? I don't. And Max O'Neill.

You would not believe how many people I meet and I go, what made you want to get, say, an Aussie Shepherd? They go, I don't know. I go, had you met one before? They go, no.

It's the Dog People Podcast, a podcast hopefully giving you a no-nonsense approach to dog training so you never have to shout, it's okay, it's friendly. My name is Jack Lawrence. Max O'Neill, the Down Under Dog Trainer. Max listener Q&A time. If you've got any questions for us, you can chuck it in the Dog People Podcast Facebook group or message us on Instagram like Nicholas did. He said, hey guys, love the podcast. Thank you, mate. Already learning so much about my boy and how to meet his needs better and already seeing more calmness. Good for you.

Awesome.

I have a question, if that's okay. Of course it is. Our boy Odie is a mixed breed, but majority Cane Corso. Oh, Dogue de Bordeaux?

Dogue de Bordeaux. So, French Mastiff.

Oh, okay. And he did have a brother, but he developed guarding aggression around mealtimes to the point we had to give his brother back to his foster, which killed us. We've been told by other trainers that food aggression is something that basically can't be trained out of dogs once it's set in. But Odie is a smart boy, and it only ever happened at mealtimes with treats, etc. And with other dogs outside, he shows no aggression at all, even with treats around. Okay.

Interesting.

So it's only happening with the mate. Now, I did message him back briefly. You can scold me if I was wrong in what I was telling him, but I essentially said that there is a reason, and I think we'll probably talk about this at some point, why they suggest that you shouldn't keep littermates. Am I right in saying there's a bit of a thing around littermates making me— Yeah, definitely.

Littermate syndrome is like a colloquial term. It's not like an official thing, but it's definitely a widely recognized thing by trainers and vets alike.

Because he said there'd be no other— this dog showed no other aggression towards any other dogs, including when there's been treats involved. I did say to him, it doesn't sound like you've got a dog that is overly aggressive then, if it was just this one particular dog. I did also say to him, look, mealtimes in general, I wouldn't feed 2 dogs together no matter whether they're food aggressive or not. You're just asking for trouble.

Yeah.

Risk reward is just not there. Yeah. So it sounds like it was initially a pretty niche thing. Like it was only around the littermate. Um, and that's, that's pretty normal. Like, uh, issues don't always generalise, which is a good thing. Um, sometimes they can be in a pretty niche pocket of the dog's life. And it's not unheard of to see that that dog's extra competitive with its littermate. I mean, from the get-go, those guys have been competing over nipples, competing over a communal bowl when they're 8 weeks, and have probably always had a rivalry. And who knows how that started? Maybe that dog learned from a very young age, hey, when, you know, I'm dog A, when dog B comes for my food, if I stand my ground and show some hostility, I'll get to maintain this resource. But I need to do this with other dogs. Like, that's really, really normal. In terms of the other trainers saying it can't be trained out, like, I disagree with that. It can be, but it is, it is tough. And there's certainly cases where it can't be. You just leave it. But a blanket statement saying it can't be, I think, is incorrect. I think you can sometimes change the way dog— the dog thinks and feels about the situation. But to a degree, some dogs are just hardwired that way. And I do think deep down all of our dogs are somewhat a resource guiding animal because they'd be out in the wild competing for these resources. We wouldn't just be having them on tap like they do. But for example, right, like if someone stole my car, I'd be pissed off about it no matter how much exposure therapy you do. Be like, oh, but Max, that probably person probably really needed that car, or they'll treat it well. Like, nah, like if someone steals my car, that would be shit. I'd always feel that way. And I'm sure dogs are the same. It's like no matter how many situations you put them in, they're always going to feel that way. But you can definitely influence the way they react. They might not like the situation, but you can teach them not to fight over it for sure. But again, as Jack said before, like, what's, what's the point? I see so many people who we get there, like, what are your training goals? Oh, we just would love if our dogs shared the bowl or could even have their bowls next to each other. I'm like, why?

Why?

Like, oh, it's, it's so much admin. I'm like, really? I'm like, if feeding one dog in the laundry, closing the door and putting the other dog outside so they're eating either side of a glass door in separate rooms is that much life admin for you, like, this is the wrong pet. Dogs, like, newsflash, take a fair bit of admin. To keep them on track and keep them balanced and healthy.

Kira's never shown any aggression towards any other animals, but we've had plenty of dogs come through here, fosters and all the rest of it. And I never, no matter what, I never feed 2 dogs in the same place. 'Cause again, it just, you just never know. Like I've never seen her be aggressive, but I don't want to put her in that situation where she feels she may have to, or vice versa, another dog feels they have to for whatever reason, because I, you know, you see it all the time. Like I foster a lot of puppies or I used to foster a lot of puppies. If you're not watching one of them, yeah, you know, it'll go, it'll dart straight to the other dog's bowl, even if it's got a bowl of food itself.

Yep.

It'll just go straight for the other one's bowl. And it's like, so it's just chaos. It's just so much better from day one just to separate everything and just feed them alone. Same with bones. Like if they have to both be outside together, I would tether them.

Yeah.

And I think you even put a video up about tethering 2 dogs that were having some fights.

Yeah, exactly. Just have one there, one on that post, one on that post, make sure they can't reach each other. Just get them used to it and just be like, hey, you guys should be able to get used to this. But yeah, yeah, it's just one of the things, it's just not a worthwhile goal. I'm like, okay, let's say we get there. How does that really benefit your life? It saves you 30 seconds twice per day.

Because you can feed them at the same time, just do it in different rooms or different areas. Like, it's not—

So it sounds like you haven't got too much of an issue. It hasn't like broadly generalised your suite.

It's just— Okay, so actually, while we're on this topic, you know, because there's a lot out there about resource guarding and especially the sort of food aggressive stuff. And one of the things that I've seen on a number of occasions is this sort of idea that when you've got a puppy or a new puppy, you should sort of, when you're feeding them, you put their kibble in the bowl or whatever, you put your hand in the bowl and sort of play around with the kibble. So they kind of just get used to a hand being in there. Is that rubbish or what's that all about?

It's a tough one. Like, as you guys have probably discovered, there's no such thing as like blanket rules. Like when I didn't know what I know now growing up, my Labradors, that's what we did. We, from the get-go, made sure we put our fingers in their mouth and we massively desensitized him to that sort of stuff, to the problem, and just didn't have a problem with it. This was just completely natural to be poked and prodded and rubbed. But it's a case-by-case basis. If we'd done that to Nelson, who's got a totally different response to being pissed off than a, you know, being a Rottweiler than a Labrador, we'd see a different thing, and, and vice versa. So it's one of the things, like, for some dogs— and I meet plenty of dogs who are amazing, I've like been at sessions and I'm going Hey, just let you know your toddler's about to reach into your dog's bowl while they're eating. They go, oh, it's fine. He doesn't mind at all. Like, wow. Like, what did you guys do? Oh, from the get-go, we've just always had his hands in his face and he doesn't mind. For other dogs, it creates a ticking time bomb. They go, if you do that one more time, I'm going to like—

well, this is the problem.

And like I said, it can work. It can be disastrous.

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Uh, all right, another question. Uh, this one's come from Facebook. So this is on the similar lines, but if a dog resource guards a treat or a toy by growling, what should you do?

Cool.

So again, we always want to, like, in the moment, just leave the situation. Like, honestly, even as a professional, you just be like, all right, cool, there's background stuff that we need to get. In the moment, trying to do this, you're probably just going to cause more harm than good. Generally, we see resource guarding, we see a bit of a relationship issue where the dog just doesn't feel like they trust you. They also don't feel like— well, they feel like they can tell you what to do and dictate and control some outcomes. So we definitely need to address that. But as Jack said, again, you need to build up a relationship where you can show them Hey, like, I'm not here with ill intention. So, with a toy, for example, if your dog just will not like hand that over, start with something lower value. For example, I don't know, one of my mates was like, hey, can I borrow your car for a week? I'd be like, ooh, I don't know if I trust you to look after it and keep it in one piece. But if I'd maybe lent that friend, I don't know, my lawnmower and they brought it back in one piece, I lent them my pushbike, they'd lent it in one piece, I'd lent them $100 and they paid me back. I'd then go, you know what, I think you're a pretty solid dude, but jumping straight to the car would be a bit much. So same with your dogs. Like, if the toy is like really high value to them, start with something that's just shit. They go, I don't care about that thing, and play with it and build a relationship of, hey, like, me interacting with this toy will add more value. It's more fun if I play, and if I take it and win, I'll give it straight back.

We're all good.

So with a toy, that's how I'd go about it, and then gradually building up, like I said, from lawnmower to bike to money to car, whatever. Um, and then with his food, it's same. We just want to show him that me reaching my hand near your bowl is not going to subtract food, it's going to add more. Okay, so I always think of it like, imagine if I came around your house for a consult and halfway through you see me rifling through your handbag. You're like, what the fuck? You went, you look through it and there's not money missing. I've just put $50 in your purse. You'd be like, damn. And you started to see me do that again and again and again. You start to go, oh mate, here's my handbag, you want to go through it? So same, like bringing our hand to the bowl and delivering more food and making that quite obvious can show our dog. That's what we did with Nelson. And same, you can stick your whole fist down his throat and he does not mind because he's conditioned to think that's a really good thing.

Thank you for your question, Janelle. Another question here. My puppy's 10 months old. She knows the rules. Example, she's not allowed in the kitchen or she's not allowed on the bed unless invited. When she's caught, she removes herself instantly, tail between the legs. What's an effective way to stop her doing the thing, not just correct it when it happens?

Cool.

So it sounds like one of your first things to do is—

This happens with Kerry all the time.

Yeah. And so this is a difference we had to explain to Jack as well between negative reinforcement and positive punishment. And we'll talk about that soon. But it sounds like one of the first things you said is my dog knows the rules. It sounds like she doesn't. If she knew the rules and really respected those rules, she wouldn't do it. Simple as that. So that's, that's kind of our first little red flag there. So what it sounds like you're doing is when she, you catch her doing the thing is you're not actually punishing the behaviour, you're negatively reinforcing the good behaviour. So let's explain that. So what I'd recommend doing, if you have no clue what I'm talking about whatsoever, go to the episode on operant conditioning. That's going to help you understand what we're about to talk about next. So it doesn't go over your head because I want all of you to understand. So negative reinforcement is where we take away something uncomfortable from our dog as a way of going, ah, giving them that relief or that sensation of removing something negative from them. So say for example, if you're standing in the sun, it's like really glary, step into the shade. Oh, that's better. Negative reinforcement. If you're really hot, you put on the aircon, negative reinforcement. If the seatbelt warning thing beeps at you and you clip it in and the beeping stops, that's negative reinforcement. So, negative reinforcement can guide you into a good behaviour, but it's not necessarily going to stop you from doing the thing again. For example, every time I go and get in my car, it still takes me a minute to put on my seatbelt. The same way that your dog is still going in the kitchen, jumping on the bed, etc. You've simply made the good behaviour happen. And when you catch her, she'll absolutely go, oops, sorry, my bad, I'll get out. And then what you're doing is negative reinforcing. She gets onto the bed, you tell her off, and then she runs out, tail between her legs. And the moment you catch her, you put the slightest bit of pressure on her, she goes into a different behaviour, the pressure releases. That's negative reinforcement. You've not punished it. The difference with punishment, by definition, punishment is anything that weakens or reduces The likelihood of behaviour. Punishment, you can't stop. You can only start once the punishment event, or you go, hey, no, you went on the bed. Even if your dog runs out the room.

Yeah.

You still kind of—

Punishment still occurs.

Yeah.

For example, if I drive through a speed camera 10 k's over and it flashes, I go, oh no, shit. Sorry.

Sorry.

I'm going to slow right down. They don't go, oh, thank you. We'll rip up your ticket. That would be negative reinforcement because I can release the pressure at any time. The punishment is, no, you did the thing. You're going to get the penalty. So how you choose to penalise your dog, up to you, but that's your problem. You're not punishing it. So therefore that's why you're not seeing a reduction of behaviour. If you do that and your dog starts to go, this behaviour will lead to this consequence and they perceive it as punishment, then it will stop.

It's like me and Kira with the spicy game of staying on the mat. That was the one thing I struggled with all the time because she would go on the mat. She knew to go on the mat, but then she would just come off the mat. And as soon as I got up, she would go back to her mat and lie down. And then I go, okay, she's got it back on her mat and she's laying down.

Yeah.

So there was no, there was no punishment involved at all. Um, so she's like, well, I'll come off because that's fine because nothing really happens. You just get up and I go, oh shit, sorry, Dad.

And then social pressure, Kira go all fours, and then Jack could turn back off. She'd go, oh, this is fun. I can turn you on and turn you off and play with this pressure. And that's what your dog's doing. They just go, cool, even if I get myself in some shit, I've learned that if I tuck my tail between my legs, run out the room, mum just goes, oh, okay. Oh, it's all good. And it just Well, great questions.

Thank you as always. If you've got any questions yourself, make sure you jump in the Facebook group, search The Dog People Podcast, or get us on Instagram, uh, which is the same, The Dog People Podcast. We'll see you in the next one. The Dog People Podcast is a Mashed Pumpkin production hosted by Jack Lawrence and Max O'Neill, edited, produced, and audio production by Jack Lawrence.

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