Man Trailing - Get your dog using its nose

Hello, dog peeps. Jack here. Just a quick one before we get into this episode. You may or may not be aware that when I'm not talking dog stuff with Max, I in fact interview people who are incarcerated in prisons across the United States on a show called One Minute Remaining: Stories from the Inmates. And that show has been nominated for an award in America. And I would love your support if you've got 60 seconds to click the link in the show notes of this episode and just vote for my show. That would be amazing if you could. Thank you very much indeed. Oh, and don't forget to verify your email address. Otherwise, the vote does not count. Thank you.

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It's the Dog People Podcast with your host Jack Lawrence. Secretly, I decided to start this podcast. For some free dog training advice. You know, Malinois seem to be like the dog at the moment. Like I think people see them on Instagram doing these incredible things.

Yeah.

Go oh my god that's awesome! And then they get one like oh my god what the fuck I done? And Max O'Neill.

You would not believe how many people I meet and I go what made you want to get say an Aussie Shepherd? They go I don't know. I go had you met one before? They go no. If you want to ask me how often I walk my own dog a week, it's only twice a week.

It's the dog people.

Welcome to the Bark Podcast, a podcast hopefully giving you a no-nonsense approach to dog training so you never have to shout, it's okay, he's friendly. My name is Jack Lawrence, not a dog trainer, just a dog training enthusiast. But of course, Max O'Neill, Down Under Dog Trainer. And Max, obviously we did a little series on dog sports because you and I are big advocates for people finding fun things to do with their dog, to not only enrich the dog's life, obviously, but also your life and, you know, the relationship with you and your dog. It's just good fun. And you don't have to get into, like, you don't have to be hardcore either. You can get into some sports that are easy to access.

Exactly.

You don't have to be this 20-year training veteran. You can have a dog and you just didn't intend to do dog sports with them, but maybe you've got a dog who's a super high drive golden retriever and you want to have a crack at some of these things. And that's why we're doing this rather than just telling you, shouldn't have got that dog. We're like, well, you've got the dog now, let's do some fun stuff. And it might start off just as an outlet for them, but pretty quickly you're going to realize like, oh, this is actually sick. And now I've got a more meaningful relationship with my dog. And today I'm really excited to bring on this guest because mantrailing is a thing that I've had a crack at before and want to get a lot better at. So we've gone to the go-to lady, which is Ingrid from Creature Connections up in, would you say Brisbane is your area?

Well, I do live in Logan.

Logan?

But it doesn't sound as good.

Say Brisbane. Northern, very northern Gold Coast. Now this is fascinating because Max said to me, we're talking about man trailing. And I'll be honest, when he said that, I went, you what? Man trailing? Can you explain for people like me, you know, in the sort of layman's terms, what is man trailing?

Yes, it's a sport for us, of course. Where it comes originally from is it's an operational activity to find a person.

Right.

So when I say operational activity, I mean law enforcement and search and rescue. Most people, or a lot of people, will have heard about tracking. So the dog follows a ground track and finds a person or an article of that person, whatever it might be, at the end. Mantrailing is similar in the regard that the dog will follow a scent trail of a specific person, but it might not be limited to just sniffing along the ground. The dog can get there however they need to. So they can ground scent, air scent, whatever suits them, whatever the conditions give them. But like, I guess in a nutshell is the dog follows the scent of a person and finds them at the end.

Because I mean, I have seen some scent work, but as you said, it's very much when I've seen someone training a dog with the scent work, it's very much that straight line. Sort of they walk in a straight line, place an item down, the dog follows that line, nose to the ground, and then indicates when they find it.

Yes. So that's your very strict. So the most strict form of tracking would be your IGP-style tracking where it's very precise and it's very important that the dog has the nose on the ground and, you know, follows the footsteps.

Very straight path and it's very linear.

Yeah. And then your tracking is a little bit A little bit more flexible, as in they can be a little bit off and they don't have to have their nose down all the time. I don't know what the rules are now. I used to do like Dogs Queensland ANKC tracking probably about 10 years ago now. And there was a certain distance the dog had to stay within the trail of, or the track of, I think.

Right. They couldn't deviate too far from it.

Something like that. And if they're further away, they'd be disqualified. In man trailing, It doesn't matter.

Right.

So the dog's more than— the dog's probably encouraged to take the shortcut across the diagonal if they can scent the person over there to get there quicker.

Yeah. So the main goal is literally just to find their target.

Just find the person. Yeah.

When I first came across mantrailing was I saw a trainer I was working with, their Malinois was trained really well in mantrailing and they explained the difference to me. And what was really cool, they pulled one of the dogs out who did the tracking and I went and walked away from the dog. And it was incredible to watch this dog because when they searched it out, sent it after me, I was able to see from where I was, this dog traced every single one of my footsteps across grass, road, concrete, mulch, everything. I was like, wow. It like, it knew every step I took. And I, like you said, I walked in a very big C and it did it. And maybe the dog took 2 minutes to catch me or a minute, something like that. Then they pulled out the other dog who was man trailing. And like you said, this dog got out the car, nose went to the ground, nose went up, and then it just went warm or cold. It found like, well, I guess what you call like my odor cone or my scent cone and just cut Straight across the sea and found me in half the time, and it wasn't as clean. Like this dog was just this is zipping zagging like do do do do do, but it's working its way across the sea until it's found me. I was like wow, it's a lot more almost I guess you'd say a bit more chaotic. It wasn't as like nose to the ground, clean precise, but it was a lot more effective in and how they worded is they said if we went to the edge of a forest and you got a and you walked straight out and left like footprints you know an odor. A tracking dog could find you. If you, in theory, you fell out of a helicopter middle of a forest, a tracking dog doesn't have an odour trail to follow, but a man trailing dog could go, I can smell something in the distance. Let me kind of narrow in, you know, using my nose to go warmer, warmer, colder, warmer, warmer, hot until it finds you. Is that pretty accurate?

Yeah, that's a pretty good, it's a pretty good way of putting it. Yeah.

Okay. So would you say most, most police dogs when it comes to that's the sort of, that's what the tracking they do as opposed to that more hardcore strict?

Probably.

Yeah.

So again, you know, what usually with anything we do, what usually happens, the strictest guidelines are usually attached to sports. In real life, what matters is how you get there quickly. Yeah. Yeah. So they will teach, they will be taught different styles often. So sometimes they'll be taught more like they're on a tracking route, but if the dog, you know, goes off and finds the person instead of following the track around the C or the corners, that's completely acceptable. They're doing their job and efficiently.

So how did you, why did you get into it? What was your sort of road into it?

So the backstory is I've been training urban search and rescue dogs for about, oh, be close to 15 years. It was a combination. I got into it because I always wanted to do it and B, I Had a dog that really needed a job to do. And I, I just loved it. And he loved it. He was, he was quite reactive. He's a catalog cross, mostly Staffie and Staff or something like that. So he's a pound special. Basically the job and working with him transformed our relationship, just made us into a team. It's quite unique. The problem, or the problem with that is that Search and rescue is a lifestyle. Not many dogs are really suited to it. And not many people in terms of, it's almost like a part-time job. It'd be like 10 hours a week easy. I literally stumbled across the first man trailing global instructors course on, I think on Facebook. So Daniel in Toowoomba organized that and I literally, I just signed up. Because I find— I thought I finally found something that is very similar and it's a way to get that experience out to the pet dog world. Because before that, I just— I'm a nosework instructor as well and I love it, but it's not quite the same. And yeah, that's how I got to it.

So that's really cool. I love that you— one of the things you said there, you said when you, when you found it, you said you and your dogs really felt like you came together as a team. And I think that's where a lot of people Probably their pain point is it feels like them and their dogs are just opposite sides of the fence.

Oh, I had that with Kira when I, when I first got her because I just didn't understand what she needed. So she's frustrated and destroying things. I'm getting frustrated because I'm like, mate, I took you out for a walk for an hour today and, you know, we've been out twice. What is wrong with you? Why are you doing this? And then once you find something, like when I started doing the stuff with the gundog stuff with her and teaching her that, it just, we were both enjoying ourselves. She was loving it. I'm loving it because I'm seeing that she's getting a kick out of it. She's not coming home and destroying everything. And just the relationship just completely changes. It's, it just makes life so much more enjoyable.

And it's so nice to have that goal where you don't find yourself just going, okay, what am I going to do? Well, you know, a lot of people say, oh, we train our dog every night. What do you do? Oh, we make him sit, shake hands, roll over before bed. I'm like, well, at some point you're not progressing with anything. You kind of run out of a goal.

Dog gets bored. You get bored. Exactly. And then you stop.

And as much as we find it completely monotonous and boring and tedious to walk around the same block, like Your dog probably finds it even worse than you do. So that's it. It's like switching to a sport like this. And like I said, guys, whichever episode you find yourself hanging on to at the end of this is just grab one and have a go. You might really surprise yourself, honestly. And that's what I really took away from what you said in Gridiron Lite. I love that you said that you ended up on the same team as your dog, because that's such a thing we push.

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So speaking of having a go, so if there's people listening to this going, well, I would love to get into that, number— probably 2 questions here. Number one, how do you get into it? And number 2, how do you know if your dog would be the right fit for it? Because we know that dogs love using their noses, but is there some dogs you think would be more suited to it than others?

So if you want to get into it, We've got a few more instructors coming up around now. Um, you do an introduction workshop and then you go to progression classes, we call them, which is just continuing classes. Uh, the nice thing is there is no— dogs aren't walked individually, so there is no requirement to be like, yeah, you have to do a 6-week course. If you wanna come twice a week, awesome. If you wanna come once a fortnight, great. In terms of what dogs are suited to? I think so far what I've seen is that I think almost every dog enjoys it, but it might not be for, it might not be for every human.

Yeah.

Right. Okay. It's more about the person than the dog.

Yeah. It's got to, I mean, it's got to suit both of you.

Yeah, of course.

Like if you absolutely don't like it, yeah, it is, it is quite outdoorsy. We get rained on, we get muddy, we get wet feet. We make sure we have our mosquito repellent. For some people that's know, that's not what they love to do and they're completely fine. In terms of the dogs that probably maybe benefit the most of it is dogs that love to use their nose, but also kind of need that physical activity. So compared to nosework, for example, it's just more physical.

Like you said, if your dog really, really, really likes sniffing. So if you've got one of those classic breeds, you know, like Labs or Spaniels whose nose are always on the ground, all your gundogs, your GSPs, et cetera. They're going to love it. But with that being said, every single dog, like, their nose is their primary sensory input. It's the biggest source of information. And every dog finds it self-reinforcing to use their nose in a constructive way. Like, we know dogs that are pugs and French bulldogs who've got the smallest, flattest noses in the dog world who bloody love doing mantrailing.

Yeah.

Or you've got, you know, shout out to Belinda, Teresa, and Wish, who are some of our clients who do mantrailing with you as well. And, you know, you look at Wish and Wish is this, you've seen Wish in class, this big black regal standard poodle who you would think looking at Wish, you go, oh, I don't want to get my paw wet. Wish charges through that forest looking for people like a mad thing. It's, it's, it might surprise you. So if you're listening to this going, I don't know about this, I don't know what my dog— trust me, give it a shot. It might really surprise you which dogs find it reinforcing.

Oh, absolutely. So I've got from the tiniest, which is Just over 2 kilo Chihuahua.

That's awesome.

Love that. And I think the biggest I've had was an Irish Wolfhound.

So, so just, I mean, obviously the dog has to have a good drive for whatever it might be like, because obviously we, we always get people say, oh, my dog doesn't have food drive or doesn't have toy drive. You've obviously, I would suggest, probably got to build that first before coming along, would you say? Like, so that they get, they want to actually engage?

Yeah.

You do need something that motivates the dog and then they want. Obviously, if the dog really can't take food or play—

You've got bigger issues you need to sort out first before to come try mantrailing.

It might not be mantrailing. But seeing that, as long as they want that, even if they're not particularly interested in people or even a bit wary, we work with that. So it might be that, you know, the dog comes up, the trail layer will put the reward out 2 metres in front of them so the dog doesn't Have to approach.

Okay.

We don't want to create any conflict.

Yeah.

Yes.

There has to be yes, a little bit of something they like. Yeah. Yeah, we definitely need that. Sure. Again, saying that, so for example, that little Chihuahua who's worked through like a lot because I think for him the world is a pretty big place.

Yeah.

You're two kilos.

The world is a pretty big place. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Everything's big.

And a lot of things look dangerous and even crossing a big empty wide open space. Like, he's a lot braver than he ever used to be, thanks to, um, thanks to the man trailing. And sometimes he doesn't feel like eating, he will still do the trail, but maybe not eat at the end.

The reward kind of has turned into the trailing is the reward.

It is, it is, yes. For him, the activity is reinforcing.

And that's what I wanted to ask is like, at what, you know, not what percentage, but Do you see that most dogs transition to the job role eventually becoming inherently self-reinforcing? Because that, that's the goal with sports, isn't it? Like when with Nelson, our Rottweiler, we do PSA and we don't go, hey, go bite that person and I'll give you some Prime 100. He goes, no, no, the bite is the prize.

Like more important than your Prime 100.

Yeah, exactly. So do you find that most dogs, even if they're not your typical tracking breed like a Spaniel, do you find that even breeds like the Chihuahua eventually go, I'm good, like I had a lot of fun doing that, I don't need the reinforcer eventually?

Yes, I think so. I think they, they still, you know, they're still happy to get it at the end. Yeah. But they, they do find the activity itself enjoyable. And it's also, I think it's one of the things that it's a bit like, you know, if you have a bite-to-prey, they obviously teach all the intricacies, but you know, they know how to bite.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

They know what to do.

Any dog knows how to follow a trail because It's very much rooted in hunting. We're not teaching our dogs something new. We're just directing it to where we can work with it, but we're not teaching a dog to trail. They already know how to do that. They born know how to do that.

Just putting that skill on cue and enhancing it really, isn't it? Yeah.

Well, it sounds fascinating. I mean, I definitely want to have a go. So if actually, if someone's listening and they want it, they know they live in around Queensland or especially northern, northern Gold Coast. How do they get in touch with you to try and get involved?

Easiest, just via the website or social media. So it's all Creature Connections. It'll get you to the pages. So if you can, if you want, it has intros to book into, or you can message me if they like, if there's nothing scheduled at the moment or it's booked out. There's also, if you go into Mantrailing Global, we'll have the, have a list of the Australian Instructors.

Oh, great.

Excellent. So if you're from interstate, most major cities or areas are going to have an instructor.

We're getting there. We've only had a few instructors courses so far. But we do have, we have an instructor in Melbourne, one in Canberra, a few in New South Wales, and then most of us are in Queensland.

We've got one in Darwin and then we've got, so myself, we've got Toowoomba, Sunshine Coast, and a If you live around like some of the main parts of Australia, prepare to drive an hour, you should be able to find someone. I know there's some pretty good online resources as well. Like any good YouTube trainers who are big on mantrailing?

Yeah. In terms of online courses, I think Mantrailing Global has just released an online course as well that is pretty nice to work through. It's pretty well done again and aimed at pet dogs and their owners. To work through. So it's a way you can get started if you can't access an instructor. Yeah. It is, I think with most things though, it is better if you can do it with an instructor.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Get it right.

But we live in Australia and sometimes it's just not possible. Yeah.

That's it.

You're gonna have to work on your own. This might be a stupid question and we did say at the start, no stupid questions. Do you need a person, another person to be able to start practicing it?

Yes. For mantrailing.

Yeah.

Mantrailing you do mainly because it is really about finding the person. So it has, the person has to be present.

One last thing that I'd like to touch on, if that's all right, is I noticed you said something before, Ingrid, that I really, really, really liked was about this Chihuahua who started off not super confident. There might be some people listening and go, oh, my dog's like, you know, they're a bit, they're a bit funny. They're a bit this, a bit timid. And honestly, you might think that excludes you from dog sports. I actually would argue the exact opposite. is you look at kids who are, you know, like gun runners or amazing soccer players, and they've always got this bit of a swagger and they're a bit like cocky and confident. And that building, giving skills and teaching you things to kids like that is like the best remedy to, you know, overcoming shyness is make them confident. And it's no different for dogs. If you've got a dog who's a bit down on themselves, a bit flat, make them think they're the best man-trailing bloody dog in the world. And again, that Chihuahua now walks around with the biggest swagger because it's like, mate, I'm— Top dog, right?

It's the best thing ever. So they find the person, they walk back and like, yeah, so proud.

Look at me. Yeah, exactly.

So don't think it excludes you guys. You've got a non-confident dog, give it a crack. It's honestly one of the best things you can do for them, huh?

Yeah, absolutely.

Fantastic. Well, if you are interested in that, we'll put all the links to everything in the show notes of this episode. Thank you so much indeed for that. That's— I'm definitely— I want to have a go at mantrailing. We tried dock diving and Kira is not a dock diver. She's like, looked at me as like, no.

So we've got a pretty long bucket list now. We've tried dock diving. We need to do barn hunt together. We need to do lure coursing together, retrieving together. Now we've got to do mantrailing.

Yeah. Yeah. I think retrieving and anything involving nose and retrieve, Kira will just go nuts for. So mantrailing is definitely something I want to try.

Just quickly touch on before we finish, because you mentioned about the shy dogs. It's brilliant. Like you said, it's really, really great for building confidence just because it's dog-led. So the dogs are calling the shots and they basically tell you where to go, for lack of better words. And it just gives them so much confidence in their own abilities if you set it up right. And it's an excellent sport for dogs that may or may not yet be suited to be in a class environment.

Yeah.

Because one dog gets worked at a time and the other dogs are usually in the car or crated. And even if you have a dog that never ever was going to see and want to see another dog ever, you can still do mantrailing.

Yeah. Perfect.

I love that. I love that.

Fantastic. All right. Well, again, all the details in the show notes of this episode. So get stuck into some mantrailing, everybody. The Dog People Podcast is a Mashed Pumpkin production hosted by Jack Lawrence and Max O'Neill. Edited, produced, and audio production by Jack Lawrence.

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