Punishing the act not the aftermath

Hello, dog peeps. Jack here. Just a quick one before we get into this episode. You may or may not be aware that when I'm not talking dog stuff with Max, I in fact interview people who are incarcerated in prisons across the United States on a show called One Minute Remaining: Stories from the Inmates. And that show has been nominated for an award in America. And I would love your support if you've got 60 seconds to click the link in the show notes of this episode and just vote for my show. That would be amazing if you could. Thank you very much indeed. Oh, and don't forget to verify your email address. Otherwise, the vote does not count. Thank you.

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It's the Dog People Podcast with your host Jack Lawrence. Secretly, I decided to start this podcast for some free dog training advice. You know, Malinois seem to be like the dog at the moment. Like, I think people see them on Instagram doing these incredible things. Yeah. Go, oh my God, that's awesome. And then they get one like, oh my God, what the fuck? And Max O'Neill.

You would not believe how many people I meet And I go, what made you want to get, say, an Aussie Shepherd? They go, I don't know. I go, had you met one before? They go, no. If you want to ask me how often I walk my own dog a week, it's only twice a week.

It's the Dog People Podcast, the podcast hopefully giving you a no-nonsense approach to dog training so you never have to shout, it's okay, he's friendly. My name is Jack Lawrence, not a dog trainer, just a dog training enthusiast. But of course, as always, joined by Max O'Neill, the Down Under Dog Trainer. We're back, Max. We're back after a bit of a break. You had a baby. Well, you didn't. You had nothing to— well, you had a little bit to do with it, probably about 60 seconds to do with it. And then how's fatherhood going real quick?

It's good, mate. It's been an adjustment, but now we were ready, so we're really enjoying it. Nelson's loving it. It's— he's been a welcome addition, so it's fun.

Yeah, I— you were talking to my wife before we started recording and you were talking about sleep training and I simply went, just like having a puppy, mate.

It is, mate.

Now we've got him up to 7 hours overnight, so now we're training him good, but getting ready for that 4-month sleep regression.

So yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, speaking of regressions, well, maybe not regression.

Oh, it's a regression.

Okay.

All right. You told me something that happened with Nelson recently, which I think is fascinating because I think people are going to listen to this and be like, oh, it's not just me. It happens to dog trainers too. Talk us through what's happened. Yeah.

So woke up this morning and Nelson, where he sleeps outside, he had gotten up on the outdoor lounge overnight, pulled down a cushion and absolutely shredded it. If you put that thing through a mulcher, you couldn't have done more damage. He didn't half-ass it at all. So we're kind of in shock, and I guess that's the point of today's podcast, is we want to kind of get that across and go, look, like, it happens to us too, but then here's my next steps of troubleshooting it. So rather than just going, oh shit, this happened, like, what do I do? I'm going to walk you through how we're going to break this down, how we're going to tackle the issue, how we're going to ensure this doesn't happen again. So for me, the very first thing we're looking is, okay, why? Is nothing happens in a vacuum, nothing happens by accident. There would have been something that influenced that from Nelson. So the obvious one is, as Jack said at the start, is we had a baby 4 weeks ago. So naturally, you know, our attention towards Nelson has been divided. He's now got to share that with another little family member, another little person. We're making sure all his needs are being met. And that's what Jack and I were saying before. I was like, look, yesterday he had a really good day. He had all his, you know, food. He trained for his food. He did his obedience session. He went to the park. He got to do this. He got to do that. He had all these pats and time and attention and connection. And for me, uh, the way I'm looking at it is on face value, all his needs are met, but clearly there's, there's another reason. So it's always worth searching for that because we're going to talk shortly about how we actually correct the behavior out, how we make sure that doesn't happen again. But such a key part of it not happening again is understanding the why.

Yeah.

Because I might go, hey, I'm going to communicate to you very strongly in no uncertain terms that the cushion's not to be destroyed. But if I don't under— if I don't acknowledge the underlying reason why he did that in the first place, then he's going to go, okay, I'm still feeling this emotion because that hasn't been dealt with. I now can no longer displace that stress I'm feeling onto the cushion, but I'm going to find something else. And we see this so often with people where if they're experiencing a behavior problem and maybe they've seen, you know, another trainer who's like, hey, I'm going to train your dog out of shredding a cushion, but if you don't treat that underlying issue, The cushion becomes a hole in the yard. The hole in the yard becomes pulling out your pot plants. The pulling out the pot plants becomes jumping the fence and going for a wander, etc. So it's always really, really important to investigate that. And that's something I'm probably not going to come up with the answer with on this podcast now, because that's something I'm going to absolutely rack my brain with it. And at 3 o'clock this morning, I'll probably wake up and go, oh, that's what it is, that he needs more of this. Or it'll be some, you know, trial and error over the next few days. But it's always really important to find out that why. So just remember that nothing happens by accident. But what we will walk you through today is the the process of how we're actually going to tackle this and train it out so that we don't see it again.

I've been guilty very often of like in the early days with Kira when she would destroy something after we'd done a walk and play and all those bits and pieces, you know, doing some sniffing and all the rest of it, and then she would do destroy something just going why?

Why?

Like at her, like she's going to turn around to me and say well that's because da da da da da. I'm just like mate come on you've had this you've had that you've had what why would you?

It's insane. And it's, it just wrecks your brain. You just, it's constantly in the back of your head, like, why did he do that? Why did he do that?

Was it this?

Was it this?

Was it too much of that? Not enough of that?

Could something have triggered him? Like, you know, I, I don't know, like just a noise that he heard or something he couldn't get to and he was frustrated because he couldn't get to it. So he was like, ah, I gotta just destroy the cushion.

Yeah, that's it. It's, it's a stress displacement of some sort. I'm just not sure where it's coming from. My immediate thought was because he did something similar the other day and then he did that. Which is so out of character for him because we've always got all sorts of things to bite and chew and do his stuff on. But the the only common denominator we've seen so far is both of the days where he's been a bit naughty with stuff like that is, like I said, his needs were met, and if anything, I almost went overboard. Like when we went to the park, like it was one of the most intense tug sessions and work sessions.

So he's just he might be overstimulated.

Maybe overstimulated. And then yesterday we actually met up with. Trainer who's potentially coming on board with us. So we met up with her dogs, we did an interview and let the dogs have a play, and Nelson and this dog had the most intense tug session where they're growling and carrying on, and they were both super amped up. And then both times it's happened that night, so it's almost wondering whether like, okay, did I not do enough to help him unwind and decompress? And then when he was trying to settle, he was still like, man, I'm fucking amped. So that's, that's what's coming to me. But like I said, one of the few— one of the episodes coming up, I'll be like Hey, I figured that thing out. I'll let you guys know. So stay tuned. Now we've got to talk about, okay, well, here's the process, how we get it out. So the very first thing I look at is when I walked out this morning, I didn't catch Nelson chewing the pillow. I saw a result of an action. And that part's— and that distinction is really important. I didn't catch the behaviour. I didn't catch the action. I saw the result of the action. So when I walked out there, Nelson, from being a puppy and, you know, Picking apart, you know, this or that when he was a puppy, like every puppy does, knows that when I see fluff and crap and shit everywhere, I go, oh my God, Nelson, like that. So as soon as I walked out this morning, his little guilty face on. And that's when people go, oh, he knows. He knows half the picture. He knows that I really don't like messes like that. Whether I direct my upset annoyance towards him or not, he just goes, oh shit, this makes Dad really not happy. I shouldn't have done that. Okay. But he knows that the result of the action gets him in trouble. The problem is our dogs can't think 2 steps ahead when they're in the moment. And he's going, I am chewing this cushion, the action. He's not thinking this will lead to fluffing and stuffing everywhere. And that will lead to me getting in trouble. Very few dogs can think those 2 steps ahead and go, this will lead to that. And that will lead to that. Most dogs are one step ahead. And so when I saw that, as annoyed as I was, there's not a whole lot you can do about it. Because the thing is, and Nelson probably in the moment had the time of his young life chewing that cushion apart, and then at some stage when he's like, okay, I'm done, he went, oh shit, there's a mess. Dad doesn't like those sorts of messes when I destroy stuff. I'm not allowed to do that. Oh damn. But the problem is that thought wouldn't have occurred to him. So when we see stuff like this, whether you're coming home and finding a pee on the carpet A poo in the kitchen, a shredded this, or a stolen that—they're all results of an action, and there's no point punishing those. You need to punish the action. So let's talk about that.

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Ask for O'Reilly VeriScan This is obviously tough because most people I see, they'll tell me he won't do it when I'm around. And that'd be the same for Nelson. If I was to sit out there or sleep out there with him, there is zero chance that would happen. Because again, as a puppy, we'd constantly catch him trying to do that. Hey, don't touch that. No, that's not for you. Take that off you. Tell you off for that. Etc. So, that would never happen. But our dogs being social opportunists are very, very good at going, hey, I'm going to maximise my advantage. I've figured out that I can get away with this behaviour undetected if no one's around. Much like us, if we sit on the motorway, we generally sit 10 k's over the limit until we see a speed camera, we come down, and then once we know we're not being watched or surveyed— surveilled, we go back up. And that's exactly what Nelson figured out. Hey, overnight I've noticed that he doesn't come out here at all. I've got a clear window where I can get up to some stuff. So this is where it's really tough from a management scenario. Obviously tonight when he sleeps out there, all the cushions are going away in the shed and I'm not giving him a chance to do that. But for a training scenario, well, I need to catch him in the act so I can punish the action so that we don't see that again. So what my process is, is between using the cameras and me secretly watching him, That's going to be my plan. So whether it's tonight or tomorrow night, I'm going to be sleeping in the lounge room where I can watch him out the window, or I'll just be— while I'm watching TV in bed tonight, I'll just be having the security cameras up on my phone so I can watch him, because I need to wait for that to happen again. So on the nights that I can be bothered to actually go, I am prepared to get out of bed and go catch him doing this, I'll have the cushions out and I'll have a trap set. On the nights that I can't be bothered to do this, the cushions will go away until this problem's solved. But what my plan is to wait until I can witness the action, so then I can mark that moment. Nope, and then go out there and correct him however I see fit. Now for this one, I really want to try and take advantage of single event learning. I don't want to have to stay up till three in the morning, ten nights in a row, and give him ten repetitions for this to go away. For me, I want to catch him once or twice tops. Be very firm, very stern, so he knows like hey. That ain't on whatsoever and not do it again. So that doesn't mean I'm going to do anything nasty to him, but that means I'm going to put a lot of pressure on him both socially and spatially so that he knows like, damn, I really screwed up here. I am not to do this again. So that's going to be my plan to get rid of this. And that's exactly how I get clients to do it as well. Like I said, set a trap. I'll tell people, hey, pretend you're leaving, grab your keys, back out the driveway, and then sneak back up and watch your dog through the kitchen window. The moment you see those paws on the counter, the moment you see them cock their leg on the sofa, you come back in. You've got to catch the action, not the result.

Yeah.

I've tried to do that a couple of times with Kira, especially when we were talking about, you know, the threshold stuff. 'Cause I'd say to you, if I'm around, no way she'll go past. Like, I mean, I can walk out the garage, disappear, you know, and she will not move. But as soon as she thinks I'm like, I'm busy in here or, you know, wherever I am, and then that door's open, she's an opportunist. So I was trying to set traps, like leaving the gate open and then disappearing for a little while. So she didn't know where I was or what I was doing and hiding. I would literally just lay a mat out the front and just wait for her to come through that gate so I could bang, I'm on you straight away. Obviously. So for anyone who's dealing with that similar situation, you know, maybe they say, well, I go to work and I can't sit and set a trap for my dog while I'm at work and all that sort of stuff. And it doesn't happen on the weekends. I mean, what you're saying is you need to try and set up that scenario.

Yeah. So what we do a lot of in our training is scenario recreation, because your dog will know, like, when you leave the house, in this context. When, when I see mum put on these clothes, grab her keys, and hurry out the door with her coffee, I know she's gone for a long time. If I see her in her casual clothes, like strolling out the door, I know she might be coming and going in an hour. I'm not trying it. And that's what I'll get clients to do. So we had a client recently whose dog was doing some like pretty intense front fence barking. Everything and anyone that went past, it was just losing its mind at. I think they got a noise complaint. So we did some training and the initial stage of the training went well. And it was like, as long as you were there watching the dog, it was great. So we started off where like, Hey, we're going to patrol you and surveil you from the front yard so we can punish or reinforce depending on the choice you make. From there, we went inside and we're like, hey, even if we're inside not actively monitoring you, the same rules apply. The dog started to get that. We slowly started to lift the micromanagement that we're having on the dog. But then in the last session, what we said is, hey, you guys need to like get dressed and leave the property as if you normally would. So pretend we're not here. And they're like, cool. Like get dressed in work clothes, grab all the keys. Back to the car at the driveway. See you, mate. Off you go. We drove down the driveway, waited 5 minutes, and we walked back up the street and just like hid behind the neighbour's mailbox. And we're just waiting and we're like, oh, here comes someone. So then someone comes walking down the street. The dog goes, mum and dad are gone. Goes, I'm gonna do my thing. The moment it started to bark, we marked it.

Nope.

The dog's like, oh my God, what? We came back up, came into the grate, corrected the dog. We went back again. Cool. The next person that walked past, dog didn't make a peep. Yes, we came back, reinforced it. The dog's like, oh my God, even when I think they've gone, this can still happen. And now we get like, hey, just checking the security cameras, we're at work, it's 3 o'clock, we haven't got a noise alert. Well, once the dog hasn't barked. So that's the— it's a huge thing you've got to do is you've got to set these traps for your dogs. You've got to show them that, hey, the same rules can still apply even when you think I've left the property. Because again, Nelson wouldn't have chewed that cushion if I was right there, but he clearly spotted a hole where he realised. I wasn't being watched. And dogs are dogs, even trainers' dogs. They all do this sort of shit. So this is how to get out of it. If you're seeing some sort of sneaky, dodgy little behavior where they're figuring out there's a hole, you've just got to recreate that scenario and be prepared to wait it out. And you might be waiting there for an hour, 2 hours, 3 hours, but try and get them, catch them in the act once or twice. Make it count so you don't need to do it a heap of times, and it solves it pretty quickly.

Yeah, I need to do that with Kira and Because she, when people go past the house, it's fine. It's when people with dogs go past the house.

Yeah.

She just starts going off on one. Yeah. And but if I'm out there again, she won't do it.

Yeah, exactly.

So, so I need to, yeah, I need to do that. I need to get it because I have been outside the house and, and, and marked it. Like I've been at the house and heard her going off.

Yeah.

And done my no.

Yeah.

But what I haven't been doing is following through by then going into the house.

Yeah.

Because then, because that's where I'm going on. Like, isn't it too, is it too late by then? But I suppose that marking—

As long as you mark it. Even if it takes you 10, 20, 30 seconds to get in the house, it's like you've marked the moment.

Right.

Same if you drive through a speed or red light camera, you get that flash and it takes 2 or 3 weeks for that fine to hit in the mail. That flash is a marker in itself.

Right.

You know the exact moment. I know where this fine's from.

Okay, great. That's good to know.

But yeah, follow through, come in, correct it, and then leave again. And yeah, generally once your dog realises that you've gone, yeah, you'll be sweet.

Right on cue.

There she is.

Let's go get her.

All right. Any questions? As always, join the Facebook group, The Dog People Podcast. And, uh, we'll get to your questions very soon.

Also reach out if you're a seamstress and want to repair a cushion.

The Dog People Podcast is a Mashed Pumpkin production hosted by Jack Lawrence and Max O'Neill, edited, produced, and audio production by Jack Lawrence.

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