Reactivity, Redemption, and Real Lessons with Canines on Cue’s Seb Lemaire

Hello, dog peeps. Jack here. Just a quick one before we get into this episode. You may or may not be aware that when I'm not talking dog stuff with Max, I in fact interview people who are incarcerated in prisons across the United States on a show called One Minute Remaining: Stories from the Inmates. And that show has been nominated for an award in America. And I would love your support if you've got 60 seconds to click the link in the show notes of this episode and just vote for my show. That would be amazing if you could. Thank you very much indeed. Oh, and don't forget to verify your email address. Otherwise, the vote does not count. Thank you.

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It's the Dog People Podcast with your host, Jack Lawrence. Secretly, I decided to start this podcast for some free dog training advice. You know, Malinois seem to be like the dog at the moment. Like, I think people see them on Instagram doing these incredible things.

Yeah.

Go, oh my God, that's awesome. And then they get one like, oh my God, what the fuck have I done? And Max O'Neill.

You would not believe how many people I meet And I go, what made you want to get, say, an Aussie Shepherd? They go, I don't know. I go, had you met one before? They go, no. If you want to ask me how often I walk my own dog a week, it's only twice a week.

It's the Dog People Podcast, the podcast giving you a no-nonsense approach to dog training so you never have to shout, it's okay, he's friendly. My name is Jack Lawrence, not a dog trainer, just a dog training enthusiast, but as always joined by Max O'Neill, the expert from the Down Under Dog Trainer, but also someone you work closely with, Max. Seb is also joining us.

Hello.

Yeah. So we thought we'd bring Seb on today because Seb's got a pretty cool journey into the dog training industry that I think a lot of people can relate to, whether you're wanting to become a dog trainer, like you're an aspiring trainer, or even if you're just, you know, in the depths of it at the moment with your dog and really struggling working on some particular issues. I think you'll get a lot out of this and relate because I know I did when I first heard it. So Seb can tell you a bit about himself, his dog Hagrid, and how he came to be where he is now.

First of all, great name for a dog.

Hagrid. Yeah.

Yeah.

I named him before I even saw him. I was like, I'm gonna get a German Shepherd and he's going to be called Hagrid. And then, you know, like a classic story, I was just looking on Gumtree. This was before I was a dog trainer, by the way. This is— I was just a—

Which is funny because we just did an episode about buying dogs and the one thing we said was, please don't buy a dog from Gumtree. Yep.

Made that mistake. Learned that the hard way. Yeah, it was literally just like, oh, we should get a dog. You know, now feels like the right time. And then opened up Gumtree and of course we saw a German Shepherd there and we went, oh, we'll just, we'll just go and have a look, you know.

You're never just looking.

Yeah, it's $2,000, you know, we'll go. We just went there and this lady just like walked out the front door. They weren't a breeder. They were just backyard situation. Just put the dog in my hands and like, well, I was like, oh, I'm taking this home. There's no way I'm like, I didn't have a bed. I didn't have any food. I didn't have like a crate. I didn't have anything. I was like, oh, like, well, it's the last one. Like there's not going to be other German Shepherds that I can get.

Yeah, this is it. If I don't get this one, there will never be another one.

So we literally just left the house, went to the ATM, came straight back, grabbed the dog and like didn't have a leash. Just put him in the back of the car and And, you know, I was, I was really interested in training. I wanted, like, I'd been watching lots of videos on dog training and just getting kind of hyped before I even got the dog. And I was like, oh, you know, it'd be so easy. All I really want is a dog that I can just walk perfectly off leash, in heel everywhere I go.

Right. Easy. No problem. Sorted. Okay. Tick.

Yeah. So, you know, I was looking, watching lots of like Michael Ellis and stuff on YouTube, which is like, he was my first kind of inspiration to get into training.

Good inspiration too.

Yeah.

I was lucky I found him.

him. And then, you know, also fell down the Zach George—

We've all done that. It's all right. This is a safe space. We've all fallen down the Zach George hole.

And, you know, when you're looking at it, you're like, okay, Zach George, you know, he teaches everything positive only. Like, if there's a way to do it this way, I'm going to do it that way. Yeah, of course I'm going to do that. So I did a lot of that with Hagrid and, you know, his obedience was really, really good. He was getting somewhere. And then I started to get really into dog training, started to volunteer at some local dog training places and puppy schools and stuff. Um, and then like, I was like, yeah, talking about dogs and to all these people. And then my dog got to around like kind of 6, 7 months and things started to change. The training wasn't quite as easy. I started noticing he was extremely fixating on, on like, he was super fixated on other dogs when we were out walking. And, you know, I was just kind of, you know, pulling him along on his, on his little harness, like, come on, let's go, we'll be fine. Um, and, and that just kind of got worse and worse and worse and worse. And it kind of started off as a bit of frustration. Like, you know, I over-socialized him. Like, Got him to play with a whole bunch of dogs and all that stuff. Took him to dog parks. Another big mistake.

Yeah, we've all done that.

So every dog he saw, he was like, oh, I'm going to go and say hello to him. I'm going to say hello to that one. And then being held back on this harness, just building up his frustration. Every time you'd see a dog, he would just be put into that frustrated state of mind. And then from there, you know, that frustration plus, you know, like time and through repetition eventually turned into aggression. And then it was like every dog he saw, he was just immediately angry and was like, I need to, I need to go and attack this dog.

And it became completely out of hand.

where to the point where, you know, we were going for walks and I would, myself and my wife, we'd come back from a walk, like literally in nearly in tears, sometimes in tears. Like, what is happening? How?

Why?

Like, we've done everything. I've done all the training. I've gone to the puppy schools. I've done the play at the dog park. I'm doing all this positive. I've never, I've never laid a hand on my dog. I've never, you know, caused him any kind of pain whatsoever. I've never made him uncomfortable. Why? Why is he feeling like he has to do this? And yeah, it became a very, like, it was a massive journey for me. I went to a whole bunch of different dog trainers and I wasn't really getting the advice that I needed. Lucky I didn't find Max, unfortunately, at that time.

Great to know my ads were working.

So yeah, I did a lot of kind of my own self-study and my own research and stuff like that, and eventually started to kind of figure out a system that was working for him. And honestly, the big thing with Hagrid was finding a motivation. That was a big thing. I was trying to use food. He didn't care about food. And all my dog training, I guess, friends and mentors at the time were like, no, use food, use food, use food. And he just wasn't interested in food whatsoever. It just wasn't his thing. I moved to toys. That became a massive, massive thing for Hagrid. He got way more interested in that. And then introducing some consequence for when the dog did lunge. So it wasn't just bouncing off the end of the harness. And then from there, that frustration then turned into engagement towards me for the ball. And through a lot of training, a lot of work, and a lot of kind of, mistakes eventually got to the point where he was okay with other dogs walking past other dogs. And then I was like, oh, you know what? This is actually kind of fun. I'm getting into this. Maybe I'll just completely quit my job. I'll just do a complete career change and just become a dog walker. So I started doing that and then started getting interested in training all the dogs that I was walking and I was finding that they were getting better. And then I started charging people and thinking, oh, maybe I can do actual training sessions to the point where I had my little business, Canines on Cue. And now, you know, I've got to the point with Hagrid where he is now the dog that I take to my reactive cases and do work with Hagrid around, around those reactive dogs. And he's, you know, he'll hold it down while I'm walking this dog that's kind of, you know, upset or frustrated or whatever it could be about, about seeing Hagrid. And it's got to the point where he now helps me. So it's a— I'm super stoked with, with how, how he's come along. And one, one main thing that I did want to kind of talk about is that, you know, I've done so much training. We've got to— we've come so, so far with Hagrid. But, you know, there's still times where, you know, he makes mistakes. There's still moments where, you know, he doesn't perform exactly how I would like. And I really don't think there is a perfect dog. And I think that's one thing that I've had to learn is like, oh, I took him to this. I went here and he barked this once at this dog that, you know, was barking at him or whatever. And then I would go home and like beat myself up about it. And it's like, no, like, you know, The animals are still going to make mistakes. You can't completely train a dog to be 100% perfect all the time. They are going to make mistakes. And that's just one thing I kind of wanted to kind of push ahead with people listening.

Therapy's biggest impact doesn't show up in some dramatic breakthrough. It shows up in the smallest moments. You bite your tongue instead of escalating. You put your phone down instead of firing off that text. You say what you actually mean instead of what would hurt someone else the most. Nobody applauds those moments, but they quietly change your life. That's what growing feels like, and that's exactly what Grow Therapy is here for. Grow is therapy that works, covered by insurance. Sessions average $21 with insurance, and some pay as little as $0 depending on their plan. There are no subscriptions, no long-term commitments. You just pay per session. Grow connects you with thousands of high-quality licensed therapists across the US, offering both virtual and in-person sessions nights and weekends. You can search by what matters, like insurance, specialty, identity, or availability. And you can book a therapy session in minutes and begin in as little as 2 days, not the national 48-day average. See if you could pay as little as $0 for therapy in seconds at growtherapy.com/startnow. That's growtherapy.com/startnow. growtherapy.com/startnow. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan.

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I've been someone who's had a reactive dog in the past. It was, funnily enough, it was a German Shepherd cross again. And I did all the wrong things. I did all the wrong things as well. You know, I got a dog, first of all, having no understanding of the breed, having no understanding of, you know, mental stimulation, no understanding of how bad dog parks can be. I did all the— as a puppy, took him to the dog park into the big, like, not even— there was a small section and a big section. And we had another dog at the time as well. I was like, oh, he can just come in with us. That'll be fine. You know, just mix him in with the big dogs. And I look back at myself then, I'm just going, I just go, you absolute fool. But it happens. Max and I have spoken about this so many times in different episodes and scenarios. It's just like, for most of us growing up, you don't really, you know, if you've had a dog in the house, you've had a dog in the house and, you know, your parents are probably the era, the dog gets to go for a walk and that's it.

Yeah.

forget that dogs don't come pre-programmed. Dogs of different breeds require different stimulation. And, you know, you just get a dog sometimes really not thinking about what you're actually bringing into your home, which is a living, breathing—

Predator.

Yeah, exactly. That needs lots of attention and training. And I was teaching the dog sit and down and all those things, shaking a paw, you know, all of those things. And then it became reactive and I'm like, Why are you doing this? You know, we're going, I'm going, we're taking you out for a walk every day for an hour, but you're still destroying the house. You're ripping things up. You do get frustrated and then you get trainers in and you're like, oh, this is never going to fix itself. But obviously you had already had that sort of interest and inkling to want to go down the training route anyway. So you managed to, I suppose, go, okay, well, I'm going to fix this.

Yeah.

But it still obviously was, was hard.

Oh, definitely. Definitely. Even like, you know, every day you're going out, you're trying to, you're trying to improve your dog. There's going to be. You know, like if you, if you do a walk and there's no reactions whatsoever and you're not really challenging your dog, and every time you're taking your dog and you're managing the situations and everything, and you get into the point where it's like, okay, we've gone for this many walks in the same area, or we've gone to these different places and he hasn't had any, he hasn't been challenged at all. It's like, you're not really, you're still not maybe creating as much progress as you could be. You know, there's, there is going to be time. You're aiming for like 80%, right? You're aiming for like 80% success rate. There's going to be times where you're like, okay, I can see we're starting to get a little bit over threshold here. That's my mistake. I'm going to dial it back a little bit. We spoke about thresholds, I'm sure. Yeah, let's talk about that. So yeah, it was, yeah, it was just a massive learning thing for me with my dog. And he honestly turned me into a dog trainer myself and completely, like I said, completely changed my career. So he's a dog that changed my life entirely, which is pretty amazing.

Yeah, it's pretty cool to see how far he's come. I mean, you know, when you run our classes, we I've initially, when we met Hagrid, I was like, okay, but now he comes along to classes, don't worry about that. And you see him doing what you've done with him, it's going along to privates, it's incredible. And I think that there's just a couple of key takeaways from this one, guys. It's one, like, you might, if you're like down in the depths of things right now, whether it's like reactivity, separation anxiety, some other problem, is you don't necessarily have to take it as far as Seb has and have a total career and life change. But I'm saying if he can go from where you are to where he is, you can definitely at least do half of that and get yourself out the hole.

Yeah.

And number 2 is, you know, as you'd attest to, that, that journey out of that pit you're in certainly wasn't a linear one. Like, I know from discussions we've had off air, um, you know, some of the advice you were given and some of the places you ended up with, and we both had said— and we now look back and, you know, what you know, and I know, I know, we go like, why did they tell you to do that?

Yeah.

Oh yeah, there's plenty of times you stonewalled and went, you know what, they told me to do this thing, these guys are amazing, and it didn't work, so maybe I've just got this broken dog. But nah, like, there's That's what I want you to take away from this, guys. Like, if you have hit a bit of a dead end and things are stalled, sometimes a fresh approach could just dig you out of that and get you where you need to be.

So 100%. Yeah. And there's so much like conflicting advice when you're looking online. Obviously, yeah, in the same Google search you'll type something like, oh, reactivity, and one person will be telling you, oh, you just need to just go out there and just like just throttle your dog on, on a leash and just choke them out and all this stuff. And then like the next link down would be like, no, you can't use any punishment, you have to just use Treats and all this stuff and that's it. And it's like, you know, like that's so tricky for someone trying to navigate that.

I mean, the dog training world is just a minefield, you know, it's just because there are so many difference of opinions and you're like, I sort of equate it to human training, like in a gym, there are so many different ideas of what's right, what's wrong, what you should be doing here, what you should be doing there. It's a simple case of do what works for you.

Yeah.

Number one, because you're the one that's got to do it. You're the one that's got to stick to it.

Yep.

So find what works for you and just stick to it. Because, you know, we know, we know with training your body is the same as training your dog. Consistency. If you're consistent, it'll eventually come good.

And that's it. And that's, and you know, in terms of you getting where you are with Hagrid is Seb didn't stumble across this, you know, dusty old book. He blew the dust off and opened it and went, oh my God, here's the dog training secret. It's just like, like Jack said, he found something that worked for him and his dog. So he put himself on the right path and stayed consistent. And, and that's really the magic recipe for pretty much anything in it.

So if you're dealing with a situation, whether it be, you know, reactivity, whatever it might be, problem issues that we all face at some point, just know that even professional dog trainers have been through the same thing. So it's not because you're an idiot and because, you know, you're doing everything wrong. You may be doing some things wrong, but as long as you focus on trying to fix those problems by reaching out to professionals like you two, You know, it's a, it's a good start. And that's what I always say, like, ask for help. I think people are sometimes so far too proud to ask for help and to go, I don't know what I'm doing. Especially if they've got to a point where the dog's reactive, they might be embarrassed and be like, well, I've obviously done something wrong here. I don't want to. And I've had dog trainers in the past make me feel a bit embarrassed about things I've done, which is a shame, obviously. And I've said to you, like, I think you were the first.

Was that me?

No. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I turn up, he goes, what have you done to this dog, you idiot? No, no, Max is the only one that's actually not made me feel stupid about it. Our first meeting, I told him about how I, you know, I made this dog reactive and I wanted to be as honest as possible about, 'cause I've now got this dog and I don't want that situation to ever happen again, which is why I'm here with you. And I was waiting for the, oh, well, you know, 'cause I said I took him to dog park and I went for a walk. That was, you know, stupid, but it didn't make me feel stupid. So, you know, there are good trainers out there that will just help you because if you're asking for help, You're already doing better than a lot of people.

Yeah, 100%.

And if it doesn't work with one trainer, exactly. Don't give up. Try another one. So any questions? Dog People Podcast Facebook group. Jump in there. Get involved. Seb, thanks very much for your story. Very inspiring.

Thank you very much for having me. It's been lovely.

The Dog People Podcast is a mashed pumpkin production. Hosted by Jack Lawrence and Max O'Neill. Edited, produced, and audio production by Jack Lawrence.

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