Reinforcement Schedules Explained: Why Unpredictable Rewards Create Addicted Learners

Hello, dog peeps. Jack here. Just a quick one before we get into this episode. You may or may not be aware that when I'm not talking dog stuff with Max, I in fact interview people who are incarcerated in prisons across the United States on a show called One Minute Remaining: Stories from the Inmates. And that show has been nominated for an award in America. And I would love your support if you've got 60 seconds to click the link in the show notes of this episode and just vote for my show. That would be amazing if you could. Thank you very much indeed. Oh, and don't forget to verify your email address. Otherwise, the vote does not count. Thank you.

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Uh, okay. It's the dog people. Podcast with your host Jack Lawrence. Secretly, I decided to start this podcast for some free dog training advice. You know Malinois seem to be like the dog at the moment. Like I think people see them on Instagram doing these incredible things. Yeah. Go oh my god that's awesome. And then I get one like oh my god what the fuck I done. And Max O'Neill.

You would not believe how many people I meet and I go what made you want to get say an Aussie Shepherd? They go I don't know. I go Had you met one before? They go, no. If you wanna ask me how often I walk my own dog a week, it's only twice a week.

It's the Dog People Podcast, the podcast hopefully giving you a no-nonsense approach to dog training so you never have to shout, it's okay, he's friendly. My name is Jack Lawrence, not a dog trainer, just a dog training enthusiast. But of course, as always, joined by the professional from Down Under Dog Trainer, it is Max O'Neill. And Max, today we're talking about reinforcement and how often you should pay that reinforcement. Is that true? Yeah. So we wanna talk about our schedules of reinforcement.

Reinforcement today. So we've talked about what reinforcement is, different currencies, and all that sort of stuff. So by now, if you've been listening to the podcast for a while, you should be understanding, uh, how to really motivate your dog. But today we're going to dive a little bit deeper, is we want to talk about, uh, in smarter ways you can use this currency, smarter ways you can use your reinforcement by timing it and offering it at different times to elicit the most amount of dopamine, the most amount of reward pathway response in our dog's brain. And therefore, uh, in the hope of creating addiction to the behaviours we want rather than the ones we don't want. So we're going to talk about schedules of reinforcement, break down what they are, the shortfalls and the advantages of each, and where you can use them to your advantage. And also probably where you've unintentionally been using this to your advantage and maybe how you've got your dog addicted to a behaviour that you really don't like. This is going to sound really technical, but I promise we're going to break it down and it's pretty easy to wrap your head around. So stick with us.

And if I can, then everyone can. So I'll be the, I'll be the gauge for that.

So when we talk about schedules of reinforcement, typically we look at 3 main types of this. You've got a continuous schedule of reinforcement, a fixed schedule of reinforcement, and an intermittent schedule of reinforcement. Okay, now the example I always give to clients is let's just say we're doing 10 reps of a behaviour. Let's just say, for example's sake, we're doing 10 reps of sit. A continuous schedule of reinforcement is paying your dog for every single one of those reps. Sit. Yes. Food. Sit. Yes. Food. Like that. Now that in theory is the— well, that not in theory, that in practice is the most amount of food. And in theory, you'd think it's the most amount of reward response, but not necessarily. When we look at our other types of reinforcement, a fixed schedule of reinforcement is paying your dog on the same sort of interval. Let's just say paying them every second rep. Sit. Yes. Food. Sit. Release. Sit. Yes. Food. Sit. Release. Paying them every second rep or every third rep. Either way, it's on a fixed interval. I'm going to pay my dog every 2 to 3 behaviours, and that's cool as well. Lastly, we've got an intermittent schedule of reinforcement. This is where it's totally random. If we're paying our dog for, you know, if we're asking our dog for 10 behaviours, 10 sits, an intermittent schedule of reinforcement is where we mix up where the payment is. And this is the one I like to use and get clients onto. As soon as possible. Because even though here, in theory, our dog is getting the least amount of food potentially, and that's— and you could pay them for, you know, 9 out of 10 reps, or you could pay them for 1 out of 10 reps, or— and you can mix it up day to day— is even though in practice our dog's getting the least amount of rewards here, it's actually the most dopamine-inducing. And let's start to break that down. So let's go back to our fixed reward schedule for a moment, getting paid for every single rep. I always like to compare that to a salary. Okay. Let's just say your salary hits your bank account Monday, every single morning at 8:00 AM. What you are, you're on a fixed schedule of reinforcement from your employer, your place of work. They pay you the same amount every week. It's in your account. You know it's coming. It's there and predictable. It's the most amount. It's probably your main source of income. But when that hits your bank account at 8:00 AM, you're like, oh my God. Ah, it's like, oh cool. All right. I expected that. I knew that was coming. Awesome. I'm happy to have it. It's not necessarily exciting. It's very predictable. Let's now say that it— that hits your account Monday morning. And let's just say for argument's sake, it's a $1,000 a week salary. Now let's say Friday night you go down to the RSL, the footy club, the surf club, whatever. And you go, you know what, I'm going to go stick $50 in the pokies. Let's just say you win $200. You were not expecting it at all. You put $50 in. The last few times you've done the pokies, you haven't won. You're not expecting it. And then out the blue, $200. That's an intermittent schedule of reinforcement.

And it's more exciting than that $1,000. Exactly. Even though it's not as much.

Exactly. It's like 20% of what you were, but you're like, you run out the room like, oh my God, guess what? I won $200. Oh, no way. What? And that's more exciting. But it's like, hang on, you didn't celebrate when you got 5 times that at the start of the week on the Monday morning. He didn't run into the room going, my salary came in. Your wife would be like, yeah, it comes in every week. What you on about? Okay. So that's the continuous versus intermittent schedule of reinforcement.

Okay. And we also do not condone the use of poker machines. I just, legally we have to put that one in there.

There'll be a little gambling.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Are you betting with more than your money? Carry on.

So in a nutshell, that's a continuous versus intermittent schedule of reinforcement. Obviously fixed sort of sits in between there where you pay your dog for every set You know, number of reps or so on and so forth. So we can start to use that to our advantage in dog training. When I'm doing a session with Nelson, I want him thinking every repetition of a behavior I do is getting me one step closer. Again, just when we play the pokies, you might put money in, spin, ding ding, oh, didn't get it. Oh my God, but you know what? The machine's getting closer. It's getting closer to spitting out. You chat to anyone playing the pokies Or anyone who does it regularly, they will tell you, now every spin you're one spin closer. You're spinning closer to the jackpot. You put fifty bucks in; you didn't get anything. Oh, it's right. That's right. My luck will change. It's going to come around. And that's how we want our dogs to feel. We want our dogs to see us as a pokey machine, the thing that dispenses what they want, and they are just playing with behavior. Sit. Oh, that didn't get it down. That didn't get it. Sit didn't get it. Stand. Oh, that got it. Ah. And then you know that time it was five reps that got a behavior. The next rep it's. One rep and they got the behavior. Oh my God, the next one it's 10, the next one it's 3. It's getting them to do different things. This is the way to drive addiction in our dog's behavior because it is the most dopamine-inducing, it is the most exciting, even though they're not receiving anywhere near the amount of rewards.

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This is interesting, actually, you're saying, because before we started recording, I think when you mentioned what we're talking about, I did say to you, I said, I think I probably need to reduce the amount because I think I'm paying on each thing. But then you talk about that, actually, I do change it up. So with Kira, when we're training, I might get her just to go into a down. She gets the reward of the ball. Next time I'll do, okay, middle, go right, heel, down. Now you can have the ball. So that's how I'm doing it. That's how I mix it up that way. So that's okay. That still builds that drive, even though she's getting a payout every time. But each time I'm just changing up when that comes.

Yeah. You're just changing up what you pay her with, but it's still on a fixed schedule. So sometimes call her back and give her nothing. Sometimes call her back and jackpot it. Just like when I arrived, I called Nelson into a here. It's like, oh my God, what am I going to get today? It's nothing. Oh, tomorrow when I call him, oh my God, what am I going to get? Ball. The next day, food. Next day, nothing. It's just mixing it up. But yeah, just start to put nothing in there. You wouldn't think that creates more excitement, but it does. If you ever play again, amusing, you're going to— guys are going to think I'm the biggest gambler. I literally never play.

He is an addict.

I've got a problem.

He's constantly asking for money.

I remember one of my friends go downloaded a pokies app on their phone. I said, can you put real money inside? He goes, no, no, no, you just like spin, spin, spin and you win every time. He goes, I've got like $3 million in my account of fake dollars. And I watched him play for 5 minutes. I'm like, you're winning every spin. He's like, I know. I'm like, how are you excited by that? For me, I couldn't understand that at all because I'm like, there is— it's just totally predictable every single time. Yeah. He's like, oh my God, cool, whatever. Anyway, for him, he's like the outlier.

It's like on Temu when they get that spinning. Have you done Temu? This thing spins up and you hit it and you're like, every time you win, you just don't know what you're going to win. You're just like, oh, this is exciting.

It loses all appeal. You're like, okay, this is not fun anymore. So you can actually decrease— sponsor us. Yeah. So you can actually massively decrease the amount of reinforcement you're giving to your dog. But we've got to chat about a few ways you can do this smart. If your dog's been on a continuous one, schedule of reinforcement and suddenly you start to whittle that down is you don't want to do this too quickly. Your dog will very quickly lose hope. Let's say one morning your salary doesn't come into your account. You're straight on the phone going, hey, what's going on? Okay. If that hasn't been communicated. So same with our reinforcement is we want to slowly start maybe skipping one rep and then going back to it and then skipping a few reps and then going back to it and then skipping. Just, we don't want to like just Don't go too quickly because your dog will lose hope that there's reinforcement coming.

Is there a way of telling if you are, if you're going too quickly? Is there a way of going, oh, I'm going faster?

You'll start to see your dog lose interest and go, okay, there's nothing on the table.

Okay. So they just won't do what you're asking them to do.

Yeah. You want to see them on the edge of giving up where they're like, I don't know if this is coming. You can start to see their hope waning and then it comes back. And that's how we start to stretch the gap. Okay. So same if I'm doing like just before, I just came from a private session where Nelson helped me for an hour. Now, sometimes I might have 1 or 2 treats in my pocket. Now, initially when he was a puppy, I used to pay him really, really often. Now I go, hey, I've got the food and you're going to get it. But at what point in the session is it going to come in the 1st minute or the 60th minute? And I intentionally will reward him at a completely random interval every session. So he's always going, there's something coming, something coming. But it took us ages to get him being obedient for up to an hour in the hope of chasing a reward. It takes a lot of time to slowly stretch that out. Yeah. If you do it too quickly, Your dog loses hope. But that's definitely where everyone wants to aim. You don't want to have to be rewarding your dog constantly. And like I said, that's the biggest complaint we get from owners. How do I wean off the food? Well, you do it like this, and believe it or not, your dog will actually prefer it. Your dog is, your dog is going to think it's more fun. You both actually want the same thing, to not have to use food all the time or whatever else, but you just got to know how to do it. Like we said at the start, we want to talk about the, I guess, the potential drawbacks to this or the disadvantages or And, you know, because a lot of you are actually probably already doing this, but where you least want. And Jack, I'm going to put you in there.

That's fine.

I'm going to do a little drive-by on you right now.

I'm here for it. Take it, take your shots.

So we've talked about—

Buy a 2-pack.

Yeah, we've talked about negative reinforcement before. So again, if you're a listener of the show, you'll know what negative reinforcement is. For those that are new to us, we'll give you the 10-second version. Negative reinforcement is where you remove something from your dog as a way of reinforcing them. The only thing you can remove from your dog to reinforce them is something they don't like or something that's uncomfortable. So that's negative reinforcement. It's still reinforcement. When Jack and I started recording and catching up again, we noticed that Kira's place training was pretty shitty.

It's terrible. It's still bad, mate. It's still bad.

So better when Kira would break, Jack would take her back to the thing and remove the pressure the moment she's on the bed, hence negative reinforcement. And it became a spicy game for her, what we call Shout out to Pat Stewart for coining that term, I believe, is a spicy game is where our dog goes, hang on, like, this is fun. I can intentionally get myself in a bit of danger, put myself in boiling water, but I can pull out whenever I want.

It's so funny. Yeah. Because so what she would do is she would start creeping off the place, and as soon as I walked back to her, she jumped back onto her, onto her bed going, oh, it's all right, I'm back on my bed. And then you walk away and then she'd creep off again. And I go back, she's like, oh, I'm back on my bed. And it's like people say to me, Dogs don't know. I'm like, she knows what I want.

She's avoiding all punishment and she was just reinforcing herself. That feeling of removing any sort of pressure from you going, Dad was angry at me, now he's not. Because as soon as I got back on this bed, it becomes a game of how far can I push this? How brave can I be? And it's the same shit you do at school is like if the teacher's drawing on the blackboard, who can hold their middle finger up at them for the longest and then take it down? Oh, she didn't see me. Oh, like, because you can pull out anytime. That's negative reinforcement. That's a, that's a spicy game. And what I noticed with you is You were very intermittent in that. Sometimes you would put the pressure on her, sometimes you wouldn't. And that was the game. She's like, is Dad going to react today or is he not? So it was an intermittent schedule. She was addicted to that. You could see she would just compulsively try. You'd put her back on and 4 seconds later you'd be like, Kira, what are you doing? Yeah, I can't help it. I'm just addicted to this behavior. So intermittent schedules of reinforcement or Intermittent schedules of punishment are a very dangerous thing if you're using it in the wrong area for bad behaviour. Because again, if you don't punish your dog every time, they like their odds, they become a gambler. So again, this is dangerous in the unwanted behaviour area. But once we understand the topic and flip it on its head, and I get clients using this for wanted behaviour, like, hey, if your dog's prone to getting addicted to stuff like they all are, awesome. That makes them easier to train. Just make them get addicted. Use all the things that you shouldn't be doing in this area. But all the things you're already doing and just start to do them here. And all of a sudden you get dogs addicted to being on their bed. Oh my God, when am I going to get paid? You get addicted to dogs who want to stop barking. Oh my God, when am I going to get paid? And you just, you just flip it on its head. So intermittent schedules of reinforcement, uh, you can use in your favor. Intermittent schedules of punishment, don't do that. You want to continuously do that every single time. So it's as boring and predictable as possible and therefore not fun.

All right. As always, any questions, make sure you jump on the Facebook group, uh, just search the Dog People Podcast or on Instagram and hit us up with your questions. The Dog People Podcast is a Mashed Pumpkin production hosted by Jack Lawrence and Max O'Neill. Edited, produced, and audio production by Jack Lawrence.

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