Teach It, Train It, Proof It, Keep It: The Full Dog Training Cycle

Hello, dog peeps. Jack here. Just a quick one before we get into this episode. You may or may not be aware that when I'm not talking dog stuff with Max, I in fact interview people who are incarcerated in prisons across the United States on a show called One Minute Remaining Stories from the Inmates. And that show has been nominated for an award in America. And I would love your support if you've got 60 seconds to click the link in the show notes of this episode and just vote for my show. That would be amazing if you could. Thank you very much indeed. Oh, and don't forget to verify your email address. Otherwise, the vote does not count. Thank you. I don't know where I was going with that. Let's go from the top. It's the Dog People Podcast with your host, Jack Lawrence. Secretly, I decided to start this podcast for some free dog training advice. You know, Malinois seem to be like the dog at the moment. Like, I think people see them on Instagram doing these incredible things. Yeah. Go, oh my God, that's awesome. And then I get one like, oh my God, what the fuck have I done? And Max O'Neill.

You would not believe how many people I meet and I go, what made you want to get, say, an Aussie Shepherd? They go, I don't know. And I go, had you met one before? They go, no. If you want to ask me how often I walk my own dog a week, it's only twice a week.

It's the Dog People Podcast, the podcast giving you a no-nonsense approach to dog training so you never have to shout, it's okay, he's friendly. My name is Jack Lawrence, not a dog trainer, just a dog training enthusiast. But of course, Max O'Neill. The Down Under Dog Trainer here to teach us everything he knows. And one of the things we're talking about today is stages of learning and training. Max, please explain.

Today we're gonna go through our 4 stages of learning and training, whether you're trying to teach your dog something simple or something complex. And once we explain this to you today, guys, it's really gonna click and make a lot of sense. And when I say that a lot of you are constantly just getting in step 1, you're really gonna understand what I mean by that. And you're also gonna know how to then get out of it and you're gonna see Some huge ceilings busted through in all areas of your training. So, our 4 stages of learning and training are our teaching or learning phase, stage 1, our training phase is stage 2, our proofing stage is stage 3, and then our maintenance stage is stage 4. Now, every different training organisation will have something pretty similar to this, but they might have different terminology. So, if you've heard something like this and go, oh, I've seen it referred to something else, everyone's got a different process. This is how we do it, and we'll run you through that today. I'm also going to compare this today, like the metaphor we're going to use Like teaching a kid a sport or learning a song on an instrument, just so you guys can help get your head wrapped around it. So, we've first got our teaching phase. Our teaching phase is we learn how to perform a skill. Okay. So, if we look at it like kids' soccer, under-6s to about under-10s is all teaching phases. Okay. We don't— there's no real enforceable actions. We're not there like grilling them at training, go, hey, that kick was shit. The ref's not pulling out the whistle all that much. We're just learning how to play the game of soccer. Okay. The object is to get the ball in this goal and stop the ball getting in your own goal. Okay. If you're learning a song on guitar, for example, when I'm learning a song on guitar, again, I'm not really being hard on myself. Or if I had a teacher, they're not being hard on me for it. They're just going, hey, let's learn how to play it. And for a dog, let's use the example of a down is we're just teaching, hey, when I move my hand this way or, you know, you will get a reward. Or when you lie down of your own accord, you will get a reward. They're just learning to form that association. And when most people go wrong, they come to me and go, oh, we've trained them to do this, this, and this. What we really see is, you know, we actually haven't trained anything. You've taught your dog a lot of stuff, but there's no training around that. And training is where we get to, you know, that's the second stage we'll talk about in a sec, where we actually start to put some expectations and enforcement around that and accountability, going, hey, this thing that you now know how to do, I'm going to show you that you must do this. But we only can move to that stage when a dog really knows the skill. Okay, so let's use down as an example. If I can say down and they know what down is and know how to lie down on command, only then can I put expectations and training around it. If I start to go, hey, you didn't do it right, they go, dude, I don't even know what I'm doing.

Yeah.

That's pretty unfair. And that's something we see a lot of rookie dog training organisations do, which sucks a lot. Or comparing it again to like kids' soccer, if you start blowing the whistle and grilling them at training and go, hey, that was terrible on the weekend, you guys are crap, and they go, I barely even know the rules. I'm just trying to have fun.

It's like having an overbearing parent that's like, what are you doing? And then you just go, you know what? I don't want to play this game anymore because you're a dick.

Yeah, exactly.

They just give up.

That's it. Yeah. And we as humans follow a pretty natural, you know, 4 stages of learning with our own skills that we acquire. So, first you've got the teaching phase, teaching your dog how to do something, teaching them how to lie down on command. And once your dog knows that down means lie down and they can demonstrate this, Then we move to our training phase. This is where the first bit of training actually happens. Before that, you've just done teaching and learning. And this is where most of us get stuck. We all get stuck in step 1. Your dog knows how to do this, but we don't know how to make it happen. And therefore, our dog has very low accountability with this and very low consistency. They'll do it in the lounge room, but if you're outside at a park and there's dogs around, it's not happening at all. Yeah. So, then we move into the training phase. The training phase is where we start to put some very black and white expectations around this. So, we had our Good Canine Citizens group in week 2 of their programme this week. Our Good Canine Citizens programme is for dogs 12 months and up. It's an 8-week course where we really nail down their obedience and training. And when we go there, again, a lot of the dogs by 12 months old, they all know how to lie down. They just choose not to do it. So, we go to our training phase. Training phase where we start to put in those black and white expectations, specifically with the down. Our expectations are, hey, when I say this, you have to do it. It has to be done within two seconds, and it has to continue to be done until I release you. So if I say down, I only want to say it once, and then you have to do it. I want you to do it in a reasonable amount of time, two seconds, and then you must stay in that down until I release you. Okay? And that when we are training something in, we need to have black and white rules and principles that we're putting in place. If we we told our clients the other night, if you can't explain a rule, it's a shit rule. But if you can clearly explain that to someone and go, my dog's rules are this, this, this. If we can explain it in a black and white way like that, our dog will understand it and learn very quickly. And we saw that. So, when you're training something in, guys, you're starting to put enforceable expectations around that thing. When I tell you to down, you need to do this, this, this. And we apply that to every behaviour. And if we go back to the human sense of this for a moment, guys, is training is where we start to get to maybe under-12s, under-13s in soccer. That's when we might, you know, you might, you're under 6, kids might go to soccer training once a week, but they're just really mucking around and having a bit of fun and they're learning how to play the game. When training starts, when we start to go, hey, we want to do this a certain way, we as a team want to play a certain way, we don't, we want to have certain goals that we try and achieve. Or if we're then, you know, we've learned a song on a guitar, we now want to start to train that and go, all right, well, I now need to play that with a certain amount of accuracy, I need to now start to do that without making mistakes, etc. So that's that training phase where we start to go, this is not just a, I'm not just asking you for a favour, I'm giving a command. That's that training phase. And that's where most people never make it to with their training. They've never actually trained all that much. They've just taught their dog a bunch of skills that a dog thinks it's optimal.

Because they say down or roll over and the dog's doing it. They're like, oh, sweet. I've taught my dog this.

Yeah. And then the dog goes, but then when we want it to happen, we go, hey, can you do it? They go, nah, I know there's a treat on offer, but right now I'd rather go play with this dog. Yeah.

There's something more interesting over there.

So, I'm not going to do it. So, again, whether it's recall, lead walking, down, etc. Is we want to actually train things in, and that's how creating some enforceable expectations are going, hey, you need to do this or I will do this. And if you do it the right way, I'll do this, et cetera. Once we've got that, it's about proofing. So, as we mentioned in earlier episodes, our dogs are heavily contextual. What that means is they pay attention to a lot of nuances in a certain context. So, if we do all that training in the lounge room, they'll go, okay, when you're in your PJs in the lounge room at this type of night, holding my food in your hand, That's what this looked like. When we start to change some of those variables, when it's at the beach, we're in a different outfit, different time of day, and we maybe don't have that food, our dog goes, this is entirely different. I'm not sure about this. Okay. That's like walking onto a basketball court and all the lines have changed and the hoops look different. You're going, huh? Like, what is this? Okay. So our proofing phase where we get— start to get the dog performing this consistently, no matter what's going on around them and any Context or environment situation we want our dog to be able to perform in, we have to train under that context. So, for example, Nelson, you know, comes to the beach with us a lot. Nelson will come to friends' and family's places when we go visit, and Nelson will come to work with me a lot. So, if I expect him to perform there, I need to train there, which we do. So, the first few times we went to the beach, it's like, hey, this is a beach. Yes, it's fun, but you need to be compliant here. Hey, this is my mum's place. I know you love it here, but you need to listen and still be respectful, or, and so on and so forth. Hey, you're at work, these are your expectations. So proofing is getting them to perform this consistently. And again, if we go back to our, you know, humanistic examples, is if you're an athlete around about the 16, 17, 18 mark, you start to then focus on, hey, you guys know how to do this now. We don't want you to rock up and have a good game and a bad game. We want you to start performing consistently, whether we're playing home, whether we're playing away, whether it's this team, that team. Night game or a morning game. Like you guys need to start to step it up and take it seriously. Or for a musician, it's like, hey, you can't just be good at playing this in your bedroom. You need to be good at playing this in front of people. And that's the same for our dog. You can't just be king of the backyard or queen of the lounge room. I need you to do this at the beach, at the park, at a friend's place, etc. So that's that proofing phase.

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Another one rule of thumb with our proofing, or, you know, something that really helps people to break it down and focus on things, is what we call our 3 Ds of dog training. Our 3 Ds are distance, duration, and distraction. So basically, you know, at what distance can you still be accountable? For example, if you were standing In a park and there was someone 100 metres away from you and they started talking, you're not going to instantly assume they're talking to you. And that's quite often something with our dogs. We might go to the beach and call them. They go, they're all the way over there. Surely they're not talking to me. That doesn't seem like, you know, we're not in a social context here. So your dogs need to practise doing things from afar, whether that's a recall or staying in a sit or a down. Then there's also duration. How long can your dog perform an action for? So that might be lead walking, place training, or staying in a sit or down. How long can my dog do this for? And then lastly, distraction. What can my dog do this around? Can my dog do this while there's seagulls at the beach? Can my dog do this while there's all sorts of food? Can my dog do this around other dogs? And I think here it's really worth actually brainstorming and writing down realistically, what do I need my dog to do with these different environments? Some people might go, I don't live anywhere near a beach. Cool. You don't need to train at a beach. Other people might go, well, I only need my dog to stay in a down for up to 5 minutes at a time. you know, just while I answer the door and something. Cool. That's all you need. I only need my dog to do this when I stay, you know, walk 10 steps away from them or whatever it is. But

I suppose just trying to work out your day-to-day life that's going to be— that you want your dog to be involved in. You know, maybe you go to a gym where they say you can bring your dog if you want, but your dog has to be under control. Your dog has to lie there and just chill while you get on with your exercise. Or, you know, twice a week you go for coffee to do some work. You You want to take your dog with you. It's a dog-friendly cafe, but your dog should be comfortable to sit and lie there and not be causing you any issues so you can work and just be there together.

Exactly. So you might use that cafe example that Jack gave and go, all right, well, if I sit at the furthest table, how many steps is it to the counter? Okay, I need to train that as my distance. If I go to the counter and order, how long is it going to take me? And then when we're at the cafe, what distractions are we likely to see? Dropped food, waitresses and waiters, et cetera, et cetera. So it's having a bit of a plan in mind because with that proofing, it's not an endless journey. You should sort of have some targets. At some stage you can go, oh, like, that's done. For example, we're not actively trying to improve Nelson's down. Like, it's done. His distance, he's happy if I'm 100 metres away from him. Duration, he can hold it for up to an hour. And distraction, there can be all sorts of dogs running around. Because I look at me and go, well, if I'm doing a 1-hour appointment, I might not need to use you at all, and I might be with a reactive dog, and we might be all the way over there. Mm-hmm. We train for those 3 variables and now it's done. And that brings us to our final stage, our Maintenance phase. So, like anything, guys, any— you know the old saying, use it or lose it. If you don't actively practise a skill and maintain it, it falls away. Again, going back to sport, if you— You know, it's been years since I played soccer or rugby. If I was to step on a field, I'd be dog shit. But with guitar, something I practise all the time, so I'm quite fluid at it. Same for our dogs. If we get to that stage, we go, nice, my dog can do a 1-hour down stay at 100 metres and ignore this and this. Cool. I'm done practising it. If we fall off, that thing will fall off. And that's the constant balance of dog training. As you know, lately, as we've prioritized Nelson's working-based training with all his protection and, you know, sport obedience over just his pet dog training, I have seen some of these things slipped and I've gone, there's certain things I haven't maintained. So we've gone back and just brushed up on them to make sure that there's a skill that he can still currently do. So once you've reached that stage and you've hit your goals, guys, it's just about Once or twice a week or every couple of weeks, just pushing your dog and testing, going, let's see if you can still do this. So this is a skill you can actively maintain. And once you've done that, that's like, that's when you can say you've got a trained dog, so to speak.

What we probably need to do after this episode and moving forward is those people who are at that stage where they've done the teaching, they've taught my dog nose down, my dog nose stay, my dog knows this and this and this, they're probably going, well, how do I take it to that next level? What is the, how do I set those expectations on my dog that, hey, you know, Down, great, you know what that is. But when I say down, it means down. It means don't move until such time as I give you the, the other command or sort of stuff. And if they move, what do I do if they move? Do it, you know, and that sort of stuff. So I suppose we probably need to then, you know, take people through the process of what's next.

Yeah, exactly. And that'll bring us to other episodes which we'll record in terms of, you know, what is punishment, what is reinforcement, actual specific techniques. Because in terms of creating accountability and like, hey, this needs to be done. There's a million different ways to do it. We can show you some ways that we here at Down Under Dog Trainer do, um, but also there's going to be 100 other ways to do it. So we'll give you some examples, but that should give you a bit of a roadmap and go, okay, like a lot of my behaviours, the reason I'm not seeing them perform the way I like is because we haven't trained and we haven't proofed them. So we can start to look at again creating some accountability and enforceable expectations with some very clearly defined rules. And then once you've got that, starting to practise that in environments where you want your dogs to perform those actions. If you can do that, honestly, you'll be light years ahead of where you are now.

It's funny because when you got here today, I think I said, I said to you, I said, I've got so much control over, over Kira out of the house.

Yeah.

But like in the house, I find it a lot harder to have control over her. And I think it's the simple reason is the fact that I go out with her every single day and we train like lunatics out of the house. We're in the park around all these distractions. And then when we come home, she knows the things like place, down, stay. But I've just not been practicing them enough because someone knocks on the door and you're in that whole process of life and you're just like, I just need to answer the door. And I'll say, get on your mat and I'll go to the door. And then she moves off her mat and I'm like, I've got to go back and put her back on her mat, but I need to answer the door.

Yeah.

So it is that thing. It's, it's about, it's consistency. It's, it's what it is, you know, because I can't get frustrated because, you know what, she's not staying on her, on her place when someone comes to the door because I'm not being consistent with her. And saying, "No, that's not what we do. You've got to stand your back." Whereas when we're out and I focused on her for that hour or hour and a half that we're out for, it's all about training. It's all about expectations. And this is what I want you to do if another dog's running around you and barking. And now proof is in the pudding because outside of the house, like the other day, I had her in a down stay. I was probably about 100 meters away from her. She is not. And there's this little brown dog just running around and she did not move a muscle. Whereas if we were at home and the door knocks and I say down, she'll go. Fuck you, pal. And she just goes to the door. So it is so true that, you know, it's such a difference between teaching a dog something and then going to that next level of the expectations and then proofing and all the rest of it. So I think it's a really great blueprint for people who might be going, oh, I've taught them this, but they're not doing this. So yeah.

And it helps us to diagnose issues as trainers. We can see, like, what I can see from there is like, you've nailed your training, you just haven't nailed your proofing. You've almost done it the opposite. You've gone so hard in the most challenging environment, but when you get back here, she goes, Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I don't have to listen to you. Yeah, see you, kid. Yeah, yeah.

So, I hope that gives you guys a bit of a method and a blueprint to follow, and you can start to look at where you're at and what you need to improve on. And again, if you're needing help with actual techniques, reach out to us. We can help with that. But we'll also be providing some episodes and some video content soon showing you specifically how you can do these things.

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we'll see you next time, everybody. The Dog People Podcast is a Mashed Pumpkin production hosted by Jack Lawrence and Max O'Neill. Edited, produced, and audio production by Jack Lawrence.

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