Bhaskar Sarma: Why Understanding Your Customer Persona is Important in Copywriting | SaaS District

Hello, hello everyone. This is your host, Akhil Jabbar, and welcome back to another episode of SaaS District. On today's episode, we will be talking about why understanding your different customer personas is so important and in copywriting. Today we have our guest Bhaskar Sarma with us. Bhaskar is a full-stack growth marketer. He helps companies and leaders to get more qualified traffic to their website, increase conversions on the website, and convert more trial users to paid customers by also keeping them loyal, upsell, cross-sell them, and setting up a customized analytics stack which tracks users right through the entire customer cycle. Bhaskar has experience in many marketing channels, including conversion copywriting, SEO, website competitor audits, email marketing, building case studies, writing white papers, video and webinar scripts, onboarding design, revenue optimization, marketing automation, and sales funnel optimization. So the whole stack. Bhaskar was a features writer at Digit, which is India's largest tech company or tech magazine. And more recently, he was a SaaS marketer and full-stack growth hacker at Pixels and Clicks, where he wrote SEO web copy, white papers, and case studies, and also consulted clients on content marketing strategy. His niche and expertise is in the B2B space. So I think it'll be a great show for you guys today. So welcome, Bhaskar. Really glad you were able to join us and thank you for taking the time to be here today.

Thank you, Akeel, for this very comprehensive Introduction. I'm very happy to be here. This is this is something that I'm looking forward to so much, and I I love to talk about customer insights because I believe that that is one of the killer apps. I mean, if you think of think of it, it's one of the killer you know insights, one of the killer strategies that you can have in your marketing toolkit. Don't totally understand your target market, the more deeper you go into understanding your customer, you know, your marketing returns, return on investment on your marketing increases substantially. It basically means that you are printing money by, you know, putting out content, putting out copy, putting out, framing your product in a way that actually meets market demands. So I'm very interested, I'm very excited to talk about different approaches in how companies, especially B2B SaaS startups, can use customer insights to sharpen their framing, sharpen their brand, sharpen their positioning, make their brand unique in front of their user base, and basically make hay while the sun shines.

Yeah, sure. We all want to print money. I think that's where— so if you can help us do that by the end of this recording, I think you'll be the highlight of our podcast. Before we get into the actual the actual, you know, the user persona. I wanna get more into like specifically about the copywriting. What does copywriting mean to you and why is it important for startup founders specifically, you know, in the SaaS, B2B space to learn how to properly copyright?

You know, I liked a very old school definition, this definition of copywriting, which says that copywriting is salesmanship in print. Now this has a context with those old school newsletters, where they basically send out a printed, you know, what they call junk form, junk mail. We don't have a lot of these things now, but it was direct copywriting where they would send out a long-form letter to, you know, millions of people all over the country. They would open the letter, they'd read it, and then they would be persuaded to buy anything from investment advice newsletters, you know, physical products, to trying on a particular product or whatever. So direct market, direct copywriting is actually something that I am very interested by because in those earlier days these guys had to go through so many hurdles. You had to, you had to send out a physical product, physical copy. The— after, after you persuade the copy— after you persuade the person enough, they have to, you know, tear out a, tear out a kind of an envelope reply form. They have to go to the post office, they have to deposit it, and then they have to wait for the product to come in. So, and the people who made millions of dollars off this knew about human psychology, knew about how to create, you know, a certain kind of desire that is enough to overcome all these obstacles. And compared to them, our— we have so easy. I mean, it's just a matter of reading some copy and then clicking on a few buttons and then you get your orders in and people can start enjoying your product, especially when it comes to SaaS product. It's instant. So this is the reason why understanding the art of copywriting, you know, selling your vision, selling the vision that you have of your product, selling the, selling the goals that you want to, uh, show, show to your consumer is so important because without copywriting what have you? You don't have anything, right? You don't have any kind of persuasive— you cannot really show off your product in a way that a physical product can be sold. Like, you know, you cannot show off your product like Peloton shows their exercise bikes, or, you know, a t-shirt company shows off the t-shirts, or sunglasses company shows their sunglasses. You have to create an idea, you have to create an idealized outcome for the customer, for the consumer, for the user. And so this is where copywriting really shines, because with a few words you can change mindsets, you can shift the frame of the user from, okay, this is something that I might want to— shit, I need to have this right now, otherwise I'll be in deep shit. So this is something that I am really— I really think all startup founders should think about, because especially when you are new Copywriting is all that is standing between, you know, getting a very talented team, getting in front of investors who put in your, you know, angel investing or seed investing or even type Stage A investing. And for that matter, more importantly, it's about how you get more teammates for you because in the initial stages when the product is not very mature, It's— there's an ideal. The ideal is what attracts people to the team. And if you can't articulate that properly, even if your idea is very good, even if you're creating a world-changing product, even if the product codebase is awesome, but your ideas don't get far. And so you'd be hamstrung. So that is why I think it is very important for startup founders to learn the basics of copywriting.

Yeah, that makes sense. Now, before we get into like the actual writing, You know, one thing I find, you know, myself, this happens to me and I'm sure it happens to a lot of people, is they get into something called writer's block.

Yeah.

Does that happen to you? And if so, do you have an effective system or routine that you use personally to get past block— that block when working on a new project, whether it's an article, blog, ebook? Because I know it takes me a lot of mental— I need music, I need to be in the right space, I need quiet noise. I don't know, like, but even then sometimes it fails, so I don't have a proper system. system? Is there something that you find that works well for you?

Yeah, I mean, I'm no super— I'm no Superman. I have writer's block sometimes. And sometimes it's so bad that I would type a line. And, you know, 5 hours later, that line is the only line that is out on the screen. So yes, I have tremendous writer's block. And one of the ways that I kind of try to snap out of it is basically reading about what users are talking about a product. So let me give you an example. Let's assume that you have a— you want to write a copy, you want to write a blog post for a CRM product, right? So I— if you are facing writer's block, you don't know how exactly you want to— you can differentiate your product from, you know, thousands of other CRM products out there, the best thing that I really The best thing that has worked for me is going to, you know, places where people talk about the issues. Maybe it is a hashtag on Twitter, maybe it's a subreddit, maybe it is Amazon reviews of a book on CRM, or maybe it's, you know, going to one of these sites like Capterra or G2 Crowd where people leave their reviews. And I basically look through all of these reviews and, you know, sometimes copy paste them in a Google Doc or Even for that matter, I copy-paste them in a Google Sheet and then try to see what patterns emerge. What are the common things that people talk about? What are the common issues that they are facing regarding that particular product? And when you take yourself out of the equation, when you start thinking from the point of view of the ultimate end users, you find that you get a lot of clarity. You know, all of this thing is actually in our head. So this writer's block is something that it's like you have something, you are reaching up to something, it's just at the tip of your tongue, but you can't really talk about it. You can't really articulate it. That's all writer's block is, right?

Right, exactly.

So when you are reading about other people's issues, other people's problems with the product that you are trying to write for, and you see, okay, these are the kinds of things that I want to focus on. These are the kinds of things that you know, will resonate much better. And then immediately your brain starts to take you on that journey. It starts to tell you, okay, these are the kind of— this is the angle that I want to take in my headline. This is the angle that I want to take in my post. These are the kind of points that I want to cover in the ebook or blog post or whatever. And so the more user research you do, the better it is for your writer's block. So I actually have a system, a note-taking system on Evernote. I do that. I, whenever I go on these, you know, review sites or Twitter or whatever, if I see something nice, then I just clip it on my Evernote and then I'll tag it on a particular tag. And then when I face writer's block, I just, you know, kind of read through that Evernote, this Evernote notes that are tagged, and then, you know, I get inspiration, so it just flows on.

Got it. So instead of staring at a blank sheet, you know, a Google Doc, now you're actually consuming a lot of information, you're getting your mind flowing reading, and then I think it gives you some— you're saying is it gives you some inspiration versus just like waiting and trying to get the words up, because as you read, then maybe something will click and it'll get the movement. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

And also another thing is that, you know, a lot of people are kind of— have 2 different opinions on this. But, you know, you could use copywriting formulas to help because there are plenty of copywriting formulas out there. I'll actually link— I'll actually share with you a link to CopyHackers blog post where they have outlined about 110 or 100 crazy number of copywriting formulas that you can either use for your landing page copy, your email subject line, your blog post copy, your, your, you know, your Facebook ad copy, whatever. And even within that copywriting headline, copywriting formulas, you have structures. How do you want to structure a particular piece of copy? Do you go to a problem, problem, problem, is it solved? Or is that a before, during, after? So there are hundreds of copywriting formulas out there, and some Sometimes they also help you to, you know, structure your thinking so that, okay, this is something that I want to put out first and then this is what I'll do. So the idea is that the copy flows properly. So these are the ways in which you can beat writer's block. But yeah, writer's block is there. It's an ever-consuming, ever-present companion.

Okay. So even professional writers have that problem as well. Okay. I will link to that into our show notes as well. And then, you know, speaking about, you know, building personas, so I know the traditional way of it, from, you know, my understanding, is it takes a lot of time and it may work when you have a big brand, but it's hard for, you know, maybe bootstrapped or early-stage startups. You know, and before this interview, I learned about something new. It's called the JTBD framework, which you talked about. I think you said it was introduced by Clayton Christensen.

Yes.

So your recommendation is for people to move away from using, you know, that slow-moving persona development development process, instead adopting this JTBD, which stands for Jobs to Be Done framework, to get copy that converts. So I'm very curious why you suggest that to, you know, early-stage founders, and why is that important versus just actually defining your persona?

Right. So persona development has been one of the core marketing, core marketing advices that anyone gives you. Hey, you want to create a website? Create personas, right? And it's good advice because you kind of understand the demographics, you kind of try to understand, get into the— get in the skin of your user. And it is very good for bigger brands that have experience, that have, you know, maybe 10, 12, 15 people on the marketing team and have plenty of customers that they can interview and talk, because user persona development works well only when you actually interview actual customers, and you have to interview a cross-spectrum of customers. You cannot just interview one persona, one type of customer, one archetype, and then, you know, extend your— extend the insights. So customer persona development takes customers. First of all, you need to have customers, and it needs resources, it needs work. And also, as your product matures, as you grow and reach bigger, different markets, you will start to attract different types of users. For instance, you might have a very early adopter tech-savvy crowd in the beginning, but later on, as your product starts to mature, as your marketing starts to pick up steam, you would attract people who are not that tech-savvy, but who would be using— who are not very power users for that matter, but they would still be using it on a regular basis. And then that way, your customer customer base diversifies. So then all of these new customers get added and then you keep on updating them. And so it's a bit of an involved process. So it takes a lot of time and it takes a lot of resources. That is not possible for many early-stage and even for mid-stage customers, mid-stage startups. So Jobs to Be Done framework is not exactly— It's not something that you should, you know, replace, replace personas, but it's a way, it's another way of approaching the, approaching the user understanding insights. So jobs to be done is quite a huge topic and it will take me hours and hours to talk about it. And I'm also only starting to learn more about it, but in very short, on a very succinct and short description is that The theory says that your product is being hired by customers to do a particular job, right? So understanding what job or what outcomes your product is being hired— no, used, used or hired to do a job— gives you a lot of insights into how you should approach your copy, how you should approach your positioning, how you should write your headlines. For instance, Let me give you an example. There are— I do website reviews using the Jobs to Be Done framework, and there are 4 questions that I find to be very useful and illuminating. And I'll share these questions with you, but I'd just like to walk through it.

Sure.

So the first question is, does the copy highlight the actual jobs to be done during the product and not the one that you think it is? The thing is that for a lot of founders, they think that their product is being used for a particular use. They think that in their head, their product is being used for a particular use. Particular, particular user, a customer. But customers actually are using that product for an entirely different outcome. And that cognitive dissonance is going to, you know, sink your website if you persist with that messaging, because your product might work very well for a particular set of outcomes that you have never thought about. Like, for instance, it's— this is not software related, But, you know, if you are selling a particular food item, if you're selling potato chips, your competition is not just other chips companies. They are, you know, other fast food companies, other things that you can munch on. So the thing is that you don't really know what your product is being used for unless you actually kind of delve deep into the context in what the product is being used. So your copy has to include the actual outcomes that your product is being used for and not what you think it's using. It's not what you think it is for, right? So you have to, you have to listen to the market and find out, okay, this is why my product is actually being used. So that way you can actually change the headline, change the positioning, say that, okay, this thing actually does this instead of what you thought about. So that is kind of like a soft By what? But it is nevertheless a positioning shift. So that is a very important part. Another thing is that, is the copy reducing the anxieties users face while making the change? Because remember, you are not really inventing something absolutely new. Odds are that if you are a SaaS product founder, there are other complementary products already being used by your customer. change, you know, you know that, I know that, and if you're a founder, you also know that one of the biggest barriers to change is inertia and anxiety. And, you know, how will I— should I go, should I move to a different product? You know, this product is not working for me, but, you know, I know this interface. Do I have to learn something new all over again? You know, all of these anxieties are what prevents the change to your product, what prevents product adoption. So The Jobs to Be Done framework also asks that, okay, are you— is your copy actually accounting for these anxieties? Is your copy, you know, talking through different issues that customers might face while they are going into a particular, uh, adapting, changing into a new product? So if you don't have that, it does not work. It does not work even if you have an amazing product, right? And if it— even if it's very perfect for your user, it does not work that way. Secondly is— thirdly, sorry— the JB, the Jobs to Be Done framework, also has to identify the now of your product, now of your user. Because right now it has to empathize with your user's present predication, predicament. It also has to talk about what particular issues the users are facing and maybe what are the good things that the users have right now. The idea is that you have to first empathize, you have to first, you know, connect with the user at the level which they are at right now before you tell them about the change. So that is the third point that this framework actually talks about, that you have to have— you have to acknowledge the present circumstances before you talk about the, you know, promised future heaven, you know, the best-case scenario. And lastly, You have to talk about the friction points that the present users are facing, because friction points are super important. That shows the user that, okay, these are the kind of things that I am facing, and they know that this is what's happening with me right now. This is why I'm not being able to do this particular job, and this is how they're going to be taking up these friction points from, you know, my, uh, workflow if I use this product. So the jobs to be done framework also has to have also talks about this particular thing. So these are the 4 points that I kind of use to audit copy or review copy and say, okay, this is something that you want to talk about. This is something that you want to highlight. This is something that you want to talk more about. So these are the points that actually makes for good copy, whether it's on your landing page, whether it's on your email funnel, whether it's on your Facebook ads, whether it's on your You know, slide deck. So all of these things has to be included in your copy.

Yeah, it makes sense. I think, you know, what comes to mind, you're talking about the chips. So you're not going to say, hey, this bag of chips is going to replace my morning smoothie because, you know, it's not really a positive outcome there. But you can visualize somebody saying, hey, enjoy this with your Netflix tonight, right? Or something like that. I think that makes more powerful.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

So you have to relate to it. Yeah. Are there any tools or strategies you recommend to write copy that actually conveys that value of the product and communicates it effectively to their target user, other than that kind of framework you already shared?

I actually have a whole lot of tools and frameworks, and there is not enough time to go over that. One of the most powerful tools that I have found this product awareness, market awareness, right? Stages awareness of the market. So this is a concept that has been introduced by this old-school copywriter called Eugene Schwartz. He, he, he, he was one of these old-school direct marketers from the '60s and '70s, right? He wrote these, you know, very famous ads. So one of his primary thesis is that market has 5 stages. Any market has 5 stages of awareness. It goes from, you know, very product-aware market where they know your product and they know what they do, all the way to a market where they don't know that they have a problem. They don't know whether the product actually exists to solve the problem. So there is this not aware, there is completely aware, completely aware, Then there is product aware, there is solution aware, there is problem aware, and there is unaware. So this is a 5-stage breakdown of any market's awareness by sophistication. So to write good copy, you have to understand your market's sophistication, at what level of sophistication they are at. Do they know that this problem even exists that you are trying to solve? Do they know that the product exists, but they are not convinced about the efficacy of the product? So then you have to kind of you know highlight the product's credibility points. Sometimes you have to start explaining that okay, this is a problem that you might be facing in the future. So then you have to actually explain the problem first, and then you go ahead and okay, these are the different ways in which your your problem can be solved. And we are saying that this our product can solve, but not necessarily. This product can solve your problem. So our product is one of the solutions, right? So it's a huge spectrum, and I'll again link that framework at the end of the show notes that you can share. But one of the biggest points that I like about this framework is that it simultaneously attracts and repels users. Because one of the points about marketing, while attracting the right user, is also turning off people who are not the right users, right prospects.

Correct.

Because you want to be marketing to people who actually are in the frame of being sold, who actually want to be sold, right? So you are limited in resources. You don't want to fill up your email list with people who might be, who has no idea even if this product actually works for them. So I find that writing copy on the landing page, writing copy on the email, It has to repel people as much as it should attract people. Actually, it should repel more people than it should attract people because after all, at the end of the day, you are marketing to a very small— your product is meant for a very small subset of the larger total available market. If you have a CRM, is it not better to kind of focus on a very niche group that has a very defining set of characteristics? Or is it then, then, you know, to target a massive group that has a very, you know, very tiny overlap between what they want, what they expect, and what your product provides? So I believe always that, you know, if you go more niche and if you rebel more people, then it is actually more helpful. So these are the kind of points that I keep in mind when writing copy, that you have to be aware of your market. You have to know that you have to know at what stage your market Sophistication is there. And also it has to repel people more than it attracts people.

And then how does that change when you're doing that for landing pages specifically? If you're trying to build a high-converting landing page, do you have like a framework or some kind of effective copywriting strategies that you recommend to follow that you've seen to work effectively?

I actually saw this great conversation on Twitter. I don't remember who it was. Exactly, but people are saying that you know when you are writing copy for your website, you should actually think about yourself as a salesperson, as a consultant or as an advisor who is talking to the client about different you know investing options. For instance, so when you are when you are doing financial investing, for instance, you will have you know seven, eight, ten, fifteen, thirty different products. And they are all equally good. And the client might— and out of those, maybe 3 or 4 different products are useful for a client. Now, uh, it's the same with SaaS products, right? So if you have a CRM product, you might have— you might have, uh, you might think that it might apply to a whole lot of people, from SMBs to individuals to enterprises, to small and medium enterprises. Maybe Maybe maybe your product is actually good for a company that has under under you know between ten to two hundred employees, right? So if a product company comes, if a if a if if if someone comes from a company who has five thousand two thousand employees, so that might not scale for your product. My your product will not deliver the appropriate appropriate. Appropriate expectations that they have, appropriate outcomes that they have. So for those kind of things, your landing page copy should also have a thing about, okay, if you buy this product or take this product, only if you fulfill this particular criteria. Again, it comes back to identifying your tribe, identifying your very particular subset of customers. Have a section on your product on a landing page that says If you, if you are, if you are not, if you are not these, if you are not into these particular categories, then our product is not right for you. And say that straight up front. This does 2 things. Not only does it make your landing page, your prospect list more targeted, your prospect list might be smaller, right? Because you are already kind of qualifying themselves. People are already self-qualifying. Okay, this thing is not good for me. I'm not going Also, it increases credibility for the people who are actually turning off because, okay, they're saying that, look, these guys are not trying to market to us, these guys are not trying to, you know, go to us. So for instance, this actually works very good with, say, say, a product that works between 500 to 5,000 people brands, right? 5,000 people companies. So If you are a small business, small, very small company, like say you have 100 people, so you can even say them that you can say that this is the product that is not suitable for you. And I have, I have actually someone at Drift. I'll talk to you about Drift who actually told me on a call when I was talking to them about the product that he said straight up, hey, look, I have seen your website user statistics and I don't think our product is right for you because I don't think your traffic statistics match the minimum requirements for our product. So they straight up said that, okay, this is not for you. And I'm very impressed because now I know that, okay, if I'm working with a client that actually matches their benchmark, or if I am at a level that matches their benchmark, I'm not going to be talking about any other product. I'm going to be going straight to Drift. And right now I'm talking to I'm talking about Drift on this podcast and they're getting free marketing. So even if I'm not using their product, they're still getting free marketing because they have actually qualified and they have restricted their user base. They have straight up told me honestly that this is not for you. So whether you do it on a sales call, whether you do it on your landing page, whether you do it on your email copy, this is something that you should do and think about.

Makes sense. And just adding to that, other than Drift, are there any You know, let's say top 5 other startups that you find that have this, you know, really well, you know, web copy or landing page that you think are, you know, others should look at and look for admiration to?

Yeah. You know, it's interesting and it's funny that the kind of most of the websites or most of the brands that I like are brands that are making the big shifts. You know, they are they are not talking about they are not talking in terms of problem problem solution or they are not talking in terms of feature benefits. So so I'll wrap this up very quickly and I'll send you this details later on. But I like the companies. I like the copy of companies who actually kind of try to define a category, right? They try to kind of you know talk about a big idea instead of talking about mere problem solution or features and benefits because features and benefits problem solution they keep on changing. But Latching onto a big idea. For instance, Drift actually again had this thing about conversational marketing, which means that people are— their whole thesis is people are stopping interacting, filling up forms. Filling up forms is an old and dated lead generation tactic. Instead, people are now messaging. So people are not writing emails as much as they're texting each other. So Drift actually positioned their whole product around conversational messaging that will help you get leads through texting. So that is a major shift. Similarly, Zapier. You, I don't know if you know Zapier, but Zapier is a tool that connects websites, connects different, different products, and then basically automates a lot of your tasks, right? For instance, I have an email that's landing on my inbox and then I create a Zap and then something gets added to that Google Sheet. So Zapier also has this thing about, you know, I love, I love, I like Zapier's website called Because they talk about, they think about the larger idea. They don't talk about the specific problem. They think about the larger idea of automating your work and removing busy work from your life, from your day. Similarly, HubSpot. I like HubSpot because they were the ones that talked about you know inbound marketing. They were talk they were talking about shifts. So right now there is actually a great no I'd not say I I don't want to use the word opportunity. I'd rather— I want to use the word shift because there is a massive shift in how business has been done because of obvious reasons, right? So if you are a brand that is actually in that kind of— if your product is kind of in that space, there is a big way to get ahead of a huge shift in how work is being done. And, you know, talk about the bigger ideas, especially on the landing pages, especially on the pitch deck. You know, talk about the bigger ideas. Bigger changes. Because if you anchor your brand with changes that take place in society, like movement from desktops to mobile devices, that is a change and shift that is not going to end anytime soon. And that is going to stay. If you anchor your brand to these massive idea shifts, it's going to keep your brand more relevant and your positioning will be— it's not going to feel dated. Your brand's identity, your brand's messaging is not going to Get dated or not going to. It's not going to need frequent updates, and it will become consistent. It will become powerful because you are associating your brand with a powerful change that is you know that that is a change that is inside with human behavior with how how the market is changes in irreversible way. So I always like these brands. Now I talk about Zift, Zapier, HubSpot, and then there is another brand called Zora. Z O-U-R-A, and they talk about subscription economy, and that's also a huge idea. So subscription economy. So these are the kinds of websites that I really like.

Cool. Thanks for sharing that. And last point I want to chat about is about hiring. So I feel that's an important point here because, you know, as a startup founder, you kind of made into that dilemma of like, should I be writing my own content for my landing page, writing it for my blog, and then my ads and my emails? And all of the above, or should I look at hiring, you know, external writers or freelancers? And if so, you know, how do you, when do you decide which one to, you know, focus on and then where and how to hire high-quality writers? Where would you look for that?

You know, I actually want to, I want to talk about the concept of the script doctor. So script doctor is a Hollywood industry term for a writer who actually does not write from the— write a screenplay from the ground up, but actually is called in at the later stages when a screenplay is taking shape so that they can polish the screenplay, they can tighten up plot lines, plot points. They'll see, they'll look at the script, they look at the story, they say, okay, there is a plot hole here, we have to get rid of that, we have to tighten it up, we have to round out the characters more better. So a script doctor actually comes in at a later stage in the screenwriting process. And then, you know, holds up the whole script. So I think of copywriters for copywriters in this way. If you're a startup founder, I think you have to learn how to write copy. Your copy necessarily might not be website ready or email ready or even pitch deck ready for that matter, but you have to be able to articulate your, you know, your core idea, your product's core idea. You have to be able to articulate your values. And so whether you do it in a Google Doc or whether you do it in bullet points or however, you have to be able to write the core concepts that, that is behind the creation of the product. Now once that is done, once you are okay on these are the kind of things that I absolutely— these are the core of my brand, these are the things that my product will do, these are the changes that the user will experience, These are the problems that I seek to solve. So once you are clear on these points, bring in a copywriter, right? Or bring in someone who actually knows the principles of persuasion, persuasive copy, because that way the copywriter actually will not only understand what your product is from the point of view of a founder, which is kind of a difficult thing to do because it takes particular insight to understand the core the core impulses behind creating a particular product. And unless you are using the product or you are actually the user of the particular product, it's hard for, hard for you to understand it. And so a copywriter, once you bring a copywriter, you give them the, give them that bullet point, give them that, you know, basically Cliff Notes, and then they will actually turn that into headline copy, landing page copy, into into email funnels and all of those things. Uh, one more thing that I really want to, uh, talk about when you're hiring for copywriters is I want to, I want to, uh, I want to highlight how important it is for copywriters to be curious and empathetic in equal terms. Curious about the problems that your product actually solves and empathetic about where the users are at right now. And again, this is— copywriters don't necessarily have to be users of the particular product to know that. They have to use, you know, audience research techniques like that, like how I mentioned before about understanding, talking to customers, reading through review sites, and all of those things. So you have to have a mix of curiosity and empathy. Otherwise, the copywriter that you hire, it's either going to be, you know, someone that will not be able to capture the essence of the product and highlight the differentiators, or it is someone who's going to be talking about the customer side, but they are not going to be able to connect the customer problems with how the product is going to actually solve the customer issues.

Yeah, makes sense. And then if somebody is looking to, you know, improve their own copywriting skills, is there any courses you recommend or suggest? suggest to somebody or any other resources to get better at copywriting, or they just want to improve their skills to improve their conversions on their website and, you know, go out there and, you know, start making changes?

Yeah, I mean, there are— you Google something and there will be thousands and thousands, millions of resources out there. But for the biggest bang for my buck, I really like what CopyHackers do. C-O-P-Y-H-A-C-K-E-R-S. They are basically a copywriting agency that is focused on SaaS startups. So they know a lot of, you know, they speak founder speak. You know, they understand, they've written for a lot of copy SaaS products, whether startups or, you know, even for mature products. And so they have a lot of resources. They have free resources, they have free courses, and they have, you know, a very good blog. that will really get you into the groove. So that is something that I think you should go because I don't want to bombard you with thousands of resources because there are thousands of resources, frankly. So even if you get started with this, you'd be much ahead.

Okay. So Copy Hackers is a great place to start.

Yeah. Yeah. It's a great place to start.

Okay. Awesome. Well, thank you. So just, I guess, last question from my side, Bhaskar, is how can our audience get in touch with you and learn more about your copywriting or other marketing services that you have?

I am available on Twitter @BhasK. You can also email me at bhaskar@pixelsandclicks.net, which is B-H-A-S-K-A-R @pixelsandclicks.net. Or you can find me on LinkedIn. I think email and Twitter should be pretty— we should get everyone out there. And then, you know, you talk to me. I can either walk you through a particular problem that you're solving, or I can recommend you to someone who's actually going to be best suited for your particular copy needs or requirements. Okay.

I appreciate that, Bhaskar. Thank you so much for joining us today. It was great to have you on.

You're welcome. Thank you so much.

Thank you all for listening in to today's episode. Don't forget to join us for another episode where we interview top leaders and experts in the business and SaaS industry. If you enjoyed this episode, I ask that you please give us a 5-star review on iTunes. That would be really, really appreciated. Otherwise, if you have any feedback, suggestions, or improvements for this podcast, Please feel free to send it directly to me on our website at horizoncapital.com, or you can just tweet me @akeeljabbar. Thanks again, and hope to see you guys on the next episode.

Thank you.