Billy Carlson: How To Get Started and Best Practices With Wireframing # 158

The following message is brought to you by Balsamiq. Balsamiq have decided to support the SaaSister community by donating their sponsored airtime to some of our listeners. This episode is sponsored by Impeccable, a UX and product design agency that can increase enterprise value through 3 ways. 1, better usability and adoptability of a SaaS product. Better perceived value through better design, which increases valuation and acquisition value. And 3, increased design leverage and output through better design systems. If you'd like to transform ideas into pixel-perfect user interface designs and user experiences, visit impeccable.com today. Hello, hello everyone.

This is your host, Akeel Jabbar, and welcome back to another episode Welcome to another episode of SaaS District.

In today's episode, we are back on our special episodes as part of a miniseries for the month where we interview different team members of a SaaS company to learn their expertise as part of the overall business strategy. And on today's miniseries of Inside Balsamiq, we're going to talk about how to get started and the best practices of using wireframing. Today we have our guest Billy Carlson joining us. Billy is a design educator at Balsamiq where he helps new and non-designers learn best practices of interface and digital product design.

He's been a designer for over 15 years and has worked on many types of projects. Previously, he held large UX teams, uh, he had led large UX teams at various corporations' internal design groups. So welcome, Billy. Super excited to have you on SaaS District Show today.

Awesome. Thank you so much for having me. I'm glad to be here.

No worries. So I want to get to absolute basics, right? Somebody, you know, simplicity as possible. I'm just getting started. I'm just thinking about using wireframing. What are the basics of wireframing? And how do I get started?

Yeah, sure. So I think I always try to break it up to 2 things. Like, a wireframe is simply just a sketch of an interface. You can actually see some right behind me. There we go. So I always start with sketching. But the process of wireframing, something that you should— we think, I think you should implement in your design process, is sort of modeled after lean UX or the human-centered design process where You're really exploring with sketching, you're thinking visually, you're trying to come up with lots of ideas to your problem, and then you're sharing those ideas so that others can participate, offer feedback on, contribute to. That's a great way— a great thing about wireframes is that they're something anyone can do, and that's why we think that they're actually best for a designer to share with non-designers. So to get started, I mean, you really just need like a whiteboard or a Sharpie and scraps of paper and start sketching ideas. One thing that I do a lot when I was in these bigger teams and trying to help, I guess, anyone, if it's a group of people trying to build a product, is, you know, people talk about Google Design Sprints. You can break that down even more simply and do like sketching sessions. And something I would always do That's a lot of fun is play Crazy Eights. It's actually a big design thinking, human-centered design thing, but you basically just break up a piece of paper to 8 squares. You give everyone 45 seconds to sketch an idea, and then what you do is you throw in really interesting prompts, stuff that could be weird, or like, what would it look like if it, you know, was a kiosk at the mall, or what would it look like this? And you just try to change your perception of what the ideas could be, and then you start coming up with new ideas.

Okay. So let me just, you know, uh, think of it, think of it from an entrepreneur or SaaS founder's perspective, right? Um, I want to get started. I have this, you know, I can start, you know, sketching it out. Um, but even before that, I like to, to kind of validate or think about the idea of how I want to visualize what I want. Should I be maybe looking at just examples of some competitors or some, you know, just some best practices and, you know, follow their guidelines or, you know, what should I pay attention to, um, to think about, you know, overall marketing and business goals?

Yeah, that's so interesting. That's something that I teach a lot of people who want to be an interface designer is to really break down how something looks. So I have this exercise I make them do called Copy to Learn, where you're copying an interface with Balsamiq. You could do the exact same thing if you're trying to build, you know, a SaaS product and just really understand the mechanics of your competitors and really use them. Like, you can't just like look at their marketing page and be like, all right, these are the features they're trying to do. Get the free trial and try to use the product. See what bothers you about it. A lot of times, if you're a SaaS founder or an entrepreneur, you've found something that's bothered you. So you're like, I've been using these things, they don't meet my standards, I want to make something better. So you already have a base point, but try to really dig in to understand what's bothering you and what you can do to make it better. I think that's usually you want to have that differentiator and you can really lean towards that in your design process after.

Got it, got it. No, that makes sense. And then, you know, talking about prototyping, is that the same thing as kind of what we're talking about? Is that different as part of the product or feature design?

It's— I feel like it's just the next level of coming up with ideas. So if your first level is sketching tons of concepts, those are usually like a few screens. So, you know, you're building the next Zoom, you have like the things that bother you, About Zoom, which could be like the features of changing it. So you maybe sketch out 3 different toolbars. The next step after that is making it interactive so that you can have people test it. Prototypes are a great way to get more in-depth feedback from your target audience.

Mm-hmm.

They take a little longer to make, so I would— usually what we try to do, or I try to recommend, is you come up with different ideas. So let's just go with this toolbar idea. You sketch like 4 different toolbars and you start showing people and saying like, this is how it should work, what do you think? And let them react to it. Once you start getting an idea of what you want, what you think that final solution or 2 solutions could be, then you start making these more interactive prototypes and then you get even better feedback. So that's where you're honing in on that final idea and you're really iterating on it. And the good thing about wireframes to prototypes is that they're really really inexpensive to make. I mean, it's just, you really don't need much money for anything but sketching, or, you know, you can use free software, you can use Balsamiq. There's really easy ways to make clickable prototypes that take 6 hours to do a whole app, you know what I mean?

Right.

And then you don't have to spend any money on design, you don't have to spend any money on development, and you get— you learn a lot, and then you take all that learning and then you start investing in the right idea.

Got it. So I guess this is, I guess the biggest advantage here is speed, right? That's what we're looking at. If I'm a SaaS business, I want to do rapid prototyping and say, okay, I have these design ideas, um, rather than, you know, sending it to a designer and then, you know, hoping to send it to developer and hoping it works is like, let's just get this out there a couple of hours, get some feedback, get, get it out to market. And then, um, you know, then we can go from there, right?

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I think, What's great about them too is that you can feel like you can throw the idea away. Like, you have a core idea of what your, your, you know, SaaS business is going to be, but you don't exactly know how it's going to work yet until you start building it. So you can try tons of ideas for pretty much free, learn from that, and then actually start building something that you've thought through more clearly.

And then there's this concept which you, you, you bring up, and I think you're more known for it, which is called the content-first design. Can you speak a little bit more about that and what that is?

Yeah, sure. I'm a big proponent of this from having been a designer for so long and just diving into, you know, back then it was Photoshop files or Sketch files, and then coming back and having to make lots of changes because I forgot something, or after the team reviewed it, they had another section they wanted to add. So content-first design is really focusing on what you want to say before you decide on how you want to say it. So that would mean like you could do a lot of work just in Google Docs or Microsoft Word and come up with, okay, on this page I want to talk about this, and you can even have a little image next to it. But really think of everything you want to say before you decide how you want to present that visually. So the interesting thing is I've been really focused on this, I guess, outwardly with webinars and stuff, but It's an interesting way because you— we all have run into the situation where we're working on a project, it gets pretty far along, and then someone says like, oh, we need to add something, or we missed something, or we weren't really talking with the marketing team or whoever's writing the content that's going to go on our product.

Right.

And then they have changes, and that changes affect the design. The design's halfway built so that it costs a lot of money. So if you do it this way, you're involving a lot of people before you even start sketching an idea or visualizing it in any way.

Okay, so if I'm a SaaS company, I'm looking to use this approach, can you give an example? Just walk us through, um, how, how this would work.

Yeah, sure. So there's a few different ways. So if you're a SaaS company and maybe your product is something like Zoom, you don't really have a lot of, um, content to write for the actual product like we're staring at now. There's some You know, UX copy, that's important but not necessary. But the things that you can really talk through would be the marketing site that you need to sell the product. The onboarding experience is really important. So if you have a new product, you can work with a writer talking about how you want them to be introduced and what's important for them to know. All of those things help a new person using it become more engaged and understand how to use the product better. So you're actually Focusing on— it's interesting, you're focusing on the UX of the product before you're even visualizing it, because you're thinking about it, you're talking about it, and you're writing about it.

And do you have any, you know, tips on how we can get or encourage people on the team to actually participate in the design process? Because I feel like that's just like, hey, designer, figure it out, and then, you know, I'll look at it after. If I like it, I may ask you to make some changes after, but at those initial stages, I think it's a little harder, right?

Yeah, that's actually one of the biggest challenges that I think a lot of designers run into. And a big part of design, I feel like, especially as you get to be like a more senior designer, is the education part of like what we actually do as a designer. Excuse me, hiccup. But I didn't— I wasn't expecting that, I guess, when I became more of like a design manager or director. But you need to explain what the actual role of a designer is so that then you can invite them to participate because there's the visual aspect, which we are known for, but then there's the user aspect, which I think people tend to overlook. I would say outside of design, I feel like product people get this a little bit, but—

Mm-hmm.

The design is not focused on the customer and acquisition and all that. It's focused on How the user feels when they're using it, how simple it is to use, what could get in their way from accomplishing what you want them to do. It's really, really focused on empathy, on making things easy. And I think what's interesting is, and you need to explain this as a design leader, is that designers have a different lens into products because they understand how they're constructed. So we understand what makes a good form or why you need a primary action button, only one primary button on the page, because it confuses the user if you change these things. So we know a lot of these principles of design, like visual design, but we also understand what, how they work with a user, how they work in a user's mind.

Right.

And that's stuff that you need to kind of educate non-designers and non-design leaders at your company. It's kind of difficult though.

Yeah, yeah, I can see that. I mean, you know what you know, and it's hard to transfer that knowledge to somebody who's not in that world. So you talked about a little bit on principles. Are there some maybe top principles you can share of how to build effective wireframing and to think about?

Yeah, so actually we came up with this thing on the design education team at Balsamiq called the 10 Principles of Effective User interface wireframes or just wireframes. So the purpose of what we wrote and what we think is important is understanding, one, how to make effective wireframes, just like the actual wireframe itself, how to make those really well done. And then the second thing we wrote, and I will read them off when I find them, but is to share that understanding. So it's more about educating other people.

Mm-hmm.

Did you bring— it's a combination of educating the outside teams on what you're doing, also remembering to invite them into the process. So we basically turn these principles of wireframes into like a checklist. That's kind of how I think of them as, so that you know that you're designing something well and that you're designing— the process is also a good process. So I will read them and kind of talk about them. quickly. But the very first principle we came up with is demonstrate an understanding of the problem. So that's something that is rooted in design thinking, is like why you're doing all these steps before you start building, is you really need to understand what the problem is. And that's where framing comes into mind and making sure that you really deeply understand what the problem you're trying to solve is first before doing anything else. So that is one of those that you would share outwardly with the team. Like, are we sure that this is the problem? We've demonstrated that the user is doing this. And then the second principle to build on that is then to focus on the user's needs. So you understand the problem. Now, what could we do to fix it? What's within our capabilities can we do to make it easier for them? And then our third principle is to thoroughly explore solutions. So that just goes back to not settling on what first pops in your head. But attacking it from another way, and I think playing Crazy Eights, or again, it's using framing of coming up with a different perspective of the problem or the solution. You come up with interesting results, and I think that's sometimes where you build the best experience.

Sorry, can you elaborate? What's, uh, for people who don't know, what's Crazy Eights? You mentioned that a couple times.

Yeah, so it's something that I try to do a lot, um, when I'm with a group of non-designers to sketch concepts. So A lot of times people go into a meeting or they know that there's a problem and they already have a solution in mind. So what you try to do is say, all right, sketch out, get all your ideas that you think are gonna work, which is fine, get them all out of your head. That's actually what I was doing behind me.

Mm-hmm.

And then what you try to do is start throwing in what we call prompts. So, okay, what if this only could work on a tablet? All right, so how would you design this if it only could work on a tablet touchscreen? All right, what can you do? And then I would start throwing— I always throw weird ones at it. So what if you could— you couldn't use your hands at all and you had to interact with the product? How would you interact with it? What would it look like? And it's basically those are prompts to change how you would approach the same problem. And then what you're doing is building up new solutions that you could possibly incorporate into it.

Got it. Okay, thanks for that. Continue. Yeah.

Yeah, no, it's something that I find it works for non-designers because everyone at first is always shy and they say, oh, I can't sketch anything, I can't draw anything, I can't draw a stick figure. As someone who's creative, you hear that all the time. You're like, totally can, you're lying, I know you can. And these are ways to make people warm up to the idea of visually representing their ideas and then also exploring, expanding what they think is possible.

Got it. Yeah, that makes sense.

Okay, so more principles.

Yeah.

Something that we think is really important about your own wireframes as a designer is to not show more detail than necessary. So don't dig in too deep into a concept if you don't know it's the right solution yet. One of the things we talk about is the fidelity of your sketches, of your Your visualization of the idea should match your understanding of it. So if you're just exploring ideas, you don't want more than these squiggly lines. But if you know what it's going to be, it can have actual text in it. It can have, you know, like the further along you go in the design process, the more detailed it can be. So you just need to know where you're at. You don't want it to be too detailed too early on because then you're going to box yourself into a solution. That might not work. One thing we call is functional, not fanciful. So you don't want to prototype too early. You don't want to have these wild, fun interactions if it's actually not solving the user's problem. So you want to make sure you've gotten the core of the problem solved before you start adding these interesting flares. It's something that we talk a lot— I try to teach a lot of younger designers is You really need to understand the core of how products are built before you start layering on the cool, interesting, fun stuff, because the core is what's going to help the user get what they want done. It's going to be the focus of whatever task they need to do. And then the fun stuff is that elevation of the product to be more delightful. I don't like that word as much, but it's what basically elevates a decent, a solid project to something that's really good. And I think Companies like Apple and Google do that really well. Like, they make the experience very, very strong, the core of it, but then they add these little, little layers of interactions that make it even better.

Right. So at this point, you're not, you know, getting deep into like, you know, the color and the fonts and all this stuff. It's just, you know, very, very high level, right?

Yeah. And like, people will add animations and like, oh, look how it slides down and bounces. Like, we're not there yet. Let's make sure we're saying what we need to say first.

Exactly.

We have a few more. So just to build on that, you should follow UI design patterns. Again, it's something that I feel like designers instinctively know after designing many interfaces, but there are a lot, a lot of common patterns that are shared across lots of different products. And you use those because we're all used to those patterns as users, maybe not even knowing it subconsciously. Lots of sites look very similar for good reason, because we're used to using those and we can use them quickly. So make sure that you follow those, even in a wireframe, it's important. You can follow those with sketches up to a more high-fidelity wireframe. A few more. So invite discussions. So you don't want to design in a vacuum. That's something I've talked a lot about is the good thing about wireframes is in any sort of visual, low-fidelity visual representation is that you can share it with anyone. And then you can get ideas back from them. So they're meant to be unintimidating, like representation of a concept that people can critique with you. Critiquing ideas is a big part of pushing a product forward and not just like saying yes to everything, you know? And I think if you get too far and there's a very— it's too fanciful and it's too high polished, you might be inclined to hold back comments of like, but does it actually do what we need it to do? You know?

Right, exactly. You forget the real problem with it, right? Yeah.

Yeah.

And then we said a few more are your wireframes are easy to understand, so they're clean and you can look at them and you understand what you're looking at instinctively. And then the final one is just again, validate the solution with, with users and team members so you can test them, use them to test with real users.

Nice. Is this on the, on the website? Is this something we can, we can check and share as well?

Yep. And we have a cool poster from our designer Lei here. Of course, download.

Awesome. Okay, that's, that's, that was fantastic. I think that's super helpful. I think we'll definitely add that in the show notes if people want to check that out and, you know, look to follow these principles when they're designing their own product. Any, any final questions? Any kind of, you know, best practices when it comes to leading design teams and making sure, you know, we talked about aligning expectations, But also balancing productivity, right? Because that's an important part. You said, you know, this should be done in 6 hours, we shouldn't be spending so much time on it. Um, but then, you know, people might take, you know, a lot longer because they get into the details and, you know, get excited about the, you know, you know, slow to launch kind of thinking.

Yeah.

Perfectionism.

It's interesting because, uh, I feel like I have a lot of thoughts on this. Okay, so leading design teams to me is Especially if you're in this, the SaaS, the entrepreneur, the startup world where you're trying to get the product out, you have to really understand, you have to do what a designer should do, and is have empathy for all your other teams. So you're head of the design team, you have a specific role to play, and you need to also understand the perspectives of the product, the business, the stakeholders, to make sure that everyone is on the same page. And I feel like design is usually at the center point because we're the one visualizing whatever the product's going to be. We also should be understanding what the user is needing the most. So it's just trying to make sure that you're always aligned. But also, like I talked about earlier, you need to be an educator of what design brings to the table. Because I think a lot of times, and I've experienced this firsthand, they think it's just the visualness, like the visual polish, but it's it's a lot more than that.

Right.

So you need to be the one facilitating all of the alignment, in my opinion. Like, let's get everyone aligned to understand what we're going to be doing here. As a design leader with designers, I always just love this because I'm a very creative person, and I think when you're managing creative people, you understand the stress of having to create from nothing. So you need to kind of be— I don't want to say protective, but I think a good design manager understands the pains of trying to come up with lots of new concepts. So you need to figure out ways that your designers work best. For me, it wasn't always just sitting in the cubicle farm designing. I had to like go sketch in my notebook downstairs outside. So you need to be able to express that even to like, you'll have, I would have a boss like, why is your design team not here? I'm like, because they're coming up with ideas and they can't just— do that at their desk. So yeah, I think managing creative people is always interesting, but at the same time, I think entrepreneurs are creative people just in a different way. So they don't usually play by the same business rules of like a big corporation or like, I want butts in seats and you have to do your job 9 to 5 because—

Exactly.

You have to follow your inspiration, you know.

And maybe just adding to that point, do you have any, uh, You know, for yourself, do you have a way or like a routine or some way when you're looking for inspiration, you're looking to get into creative zones or get into flow? Do you have a, like, a place you like to go or some kind of routine you need to get into? Like, ah, it just triggers ideas and gets the mind going?

Yeah, I actually like to either go on walks or sit outside, like be outside and not have screens or even sometimes music, just like listening to whatever's happening. And then I will actually use my phone and take like audio notes with the Notes app and just like kind of stream of consciousness. And that'll help me think of, you know, visual design project ideas or like how I would actually do it. And it's interesting, a lot of times you're just connecting the dots between a couple of different concepts that you know of. So like in design, they call it smart recombination, where you're taking 2 different Totally different concepts and making them into one. A lot of that comes from not just trying to force it out of you, but letting it naturally pop into your head, I guess. So you're trying to find ways to let that happen to you.

And are you pen and paper, or sketcher and paper, or do you have iPad with pen? What works better?

I do the pen and paper. Yeah, I'm like a marker and piece of paper, like analog guy. And what I do actually, it's funny because I haven't talked about Balsamiq a lot, but I actually really like that as a design manager because I would be in all the big meetings talking about the project and I can capture ideas even there. So like anywhere I can capture ideas quickly, I found— I find the best.

So makes sense. Awesome. This has been super, super helpful. Wanna shift gears? Let's go towards the fun part of the show, Billy, which is the personal and rapid-fire questions. So every guest had some questions around the dog that they have or their pet. And I think you have a question. What's the best dog breed as a companion in the wireframing process? Does your dog help you out with that?

Oh no, she doesn't. She's a very quiet dog. She's really chill. It was funny when I was thinking of this question, I was thinking, what is the best dog breed to compare to wireframing? I guess not as a companion, but I was thinking of the dachshund.

Sure.

You know, like, what dog do you compare to wireframing?

Yeah.

And the reason why I was thinking that is because they're like, they're kind of funny looking. They're not what you expect when you think of a dog, and wireframing is not really what you expect when you think of like a visual design, and then they're like a worker, but they also are great companions. So I know that because my friends have them.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I agree. I've got 2 and they're definitely, definitely helpful. If you were to adopt a pet, what would it be and how would you name it?

So my kids are begging for another dog. I already have one.

Okay.

And so my dog before this, my first dog I bought as an adult was a golden retriever, and we named it after the Stanley Cup, which is the NHL's like top— you win the Stanley Cup. So now I just moved away from my hometown and I live out in the LA area. So I want a golden retriever named Wrigley because I miss Wrigley Field so much and the Chicago Cubs.

Makes you feel like home. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I don't miss the weather, but I, uh, Miss baseball on TV, I guess.

Yeah, yeah, I guess the LA team's just not as good.

Yeah, I'm just from there, you know, you grew up there, you grew up with it.

So for sure, yeah, in your roots. Um, what, what's your favorite hobby outside of work that you find, um, you know, gets you into flow state?

Oh, this is a good one. Um, outside of work. Well, I really like— I have a few. So I got into boxing lately, which is really fun, and it definitely clears your mind. You know, you're just focused on learning the combinations, or it's just a really great exercise because you're— I feel like you're learning and you're exercising. And then once you start sparring with people, it's the most difficult thing in the world. It's very, very difficult.

Yeah, the practice area is reality, right?

Yeah, exactly. So once you get hit in the face, like Mike Tyson said, you have plans until someone punches you in the face. It's very true. I was gonna throw a combo, but now my face hurts. Um, the other one is I came from an art background, so I was drawing and painting like since I was a little kid, and then I went into graphic design before I got into like UX design. So for me, it is art. I love— I used to do this all the time, but pen and ink drawing. And I can be drawing a picture for like 3 hours and like my hands all cramped up. I'm like, what happened? I didn't even realize it.

So, wow. You just get into it and 3 hours is gone without you even noticing. That's awesome.

So those are, those are my favorites. Yeah.

Nice. Um, 2 last questions here. Last one is, uh, you know, what's your favorite thing about working at Balsamiq?

Oh man, I would definitely say the people. Everyone is really nice and genuinely just good, sweet people, and they're really supportive, and it makes it really fun to work with. And to build on that, I think we're— I'm on the education team, and we just have such a great team, and we all help each other. You know when you have a good team when you're doing the best work because your teammates are helping you along and giving you encouragement or offering suggestions and— All that. So I just think, and also there's a great perk of being able to go to Italy every now and then.

That's awesome. Yeah, I get to see, see, uh, Peldi himself. Yeah, cool. Um, last question. Okay, if I'm, uh, any career advice or tips for many professionals looking to develop their career, you know, and get into this, this area of work, right? Is there any software skills, hard skills, soft skills in today's world? I guess it'd be different than, you know, you first started.

Yeah, I think this is really important because there's a lot of people who started off in one career and are transitioning to UX/UI or product design. And I'm really interested in helping those people because that was me. Like, I was a graphic designer and those people who did products saw that as completely the opposite of what they did. So I had to like teach myself a lot and kind of force my way into the UX field, I guess. So I would say practice designing. Like, you have to— the number one thing you could do is just find projects and work on them.

Okay.

That's what I did. It was like, I'm gonna redesign this. I designed— I remember I had no idea what I was doing because I was a graphic designer, so think marketing type stuff. And I designed like 3 iPad apps that were not very good, but it was like I would show someone who worked in UX and they would offer me advice and say like, take a look at this, take a look at that. So Something I talked about in the beginning is this idea of copy to learn, and I teach anyone who wants to be an interface designer or a product designer to, to open up software that you've never used and just start trying to figure it out and start copying existing software, because that's the best way to really understand how the tool works, how to make it work for yourself. We all use these design tools differently, so find your way of working. And then also really understand how designs are built. Once you start copying, you're like, oh, I didn't notice that there's like 3 shades of gray on this page to sort of show the hierarchy of content. You know, the lighter the gray, I don't notice it as much. That's intentional. So sort of build that, you know, knowledge slowly, I think, through that process.

Nice. And so, you know, have those skills, um, you know, pitch it out, get some projects, maybe some freelance, and then You think that's just kind of step your way up until you feel more confident to take on bigger roles, is that what you'd say?

Yeah, I think you always have to stretch yourself too and challenge yourself. It's not going to come easy and people aren't just going to throw you jobs typically. You can get really lucky, but a lot of times you have to work hard and ask for projects. So if you're working at a company and you're a product manager and you want to be a UX designer, you should tell the director of UX or whoever, I'm really interested in this. What are some things I can do? You know, look for guidance, you know, from where you're at too.

Yeah, that's awesome. Awesome advice. Cool.

Thank you.

Thank you so much, Billy. Anything else you want to add before we end this?

No, I just really appreciate the time. I think this is a great series and I really look forward to it. So thanks for involving us, I guess.

Awesome. Thank you. Thank you so much, Billy. Much appreciated.

Thank you.

Cheers.

Thank you all for watching this episode and joining SaaS District today. Don't forget to like, subscribe, and hit the bell for future episodes where we interview top leaders in the SaaS industry. If you're a SaaS company looking to grow and unlock the true value of your business, get in touch with us at Horizon Capital and myself or one of our consultants will provide a free assessment to help you get there and hit your goals. If you have any feedback or suggestions, If you have any questions or suggestions for this podcast, please comment down below and help us improve our content for you all. Thanks again and see you on the next one.

Bye.