Carly J Cais: What Is SaaS Conversion Content And How to Create It #199

Hello, hello everyone. This is your host, Akhil Jabbar, and welcome back to another episode of SaaS District. In today's episode, we'll be talking about what is SaaS conversion content and how to best create it. Today we have our guest Carly Case joining us. Carly is the founder and CEO of RepSpark, They're a content agency that creates full-funnel marketing content strategy, generates demand, optimizes conversions, and helps elevate sales teams' potential. She started marketing over 20 years ago, first in B2C, then moved to B2B, where she's now on a mission to grow businesses with creative conversion content, which we'll talk about, that levels up internal teams and drives demand. She's an expert in streamlining B2B tech companies to ignite rapid growth, specializing in companies from startup to scale-up phase, or anywhere below $25 million in revenue. She was also writing a book called Startup to Scale-Up: 100K Growth Secrets from SaaS Leaders, which will be published actually this quarter, so Q1 of 2023. So welcome, Carly. Super excited to have you on the show today.

Thanks, Akeel. I really appreciate the opportunity.

So we're going to talk about content today. Everybody loves content. I mean, that's a huge thing that marketers need, sales Teams need to drive more leads, qualified leads. That's the big thing here. So if I'm a SaaS company, talk to me. How can I determine what is my content needs? What do I need to improve? What do I need to work on? Where do I get started here?

Yeah, a lot of companies have that question, and I want to first clarify what I mean by content, because sometimes when you hear the word content, you think marketing content. But I would love to break that misconception down in people's minds. Content is really anything visual and with words. So if we're talking about sales copywriting for outbound emails, That's content, marketing content, sales collateral, enablement content, customer onboarding content, user guides. All of this falls into the content sphere, and all of that is driven by effective words, imageries, and layout that helps convince and convert your customers into deeper, deeper relationships in the account and your users into deeper customers, and then your leads into customers in the first place.

So if I'm a SaaS company, so we have an issue here, right? There's a lot of content that we could be playing on, right? This is content we're creating on visual content, on podcasts. Should I start a content? This is the start of 2023. I've got a bunch of ideas. Where should I— how do I figure out what's best for me? What have you seen work best?

Yeah, that's a great question. So it always depends where you are today and where you need to go. So for different, different SaaS companies that have different products, if you're selling to enterprise versus mid-market versus a PLG play, your content needs are going to be quite different because of the needs of your audience. You always need to match the kind of content, words, images that you're putting out there with the audience that you're trying to sell to. If you have a PLG motion, which I think we, we're gonna talk a little bit about later, what's really essential is creating content that is very much self-serve, anticipating your eventual users' needs, and making sure that there is a very robust feedback loop between your new users and your product team and the team that is creating content, whether it falls into marketing or product marketing, whoever is doing it, we need to make sure that there is, there is a constant iterative improvement and we're bringing in current user concerns. In order to upgrade the account and ensure that they are paid sticky users that remain for the long, long, long term.

Yeah, that makes sense. And then we talked about, you know, at the beginning of this episode, kind of introducing the concept of conversion content, right? Can you explain a little bit, you know, what that means and maybe provide some examples so people can look at, you know, following and maybe start implementing themselves?

Oh yeah, of course. So conversion content we define as content that just moves the viewer into the next phase in their journey. So let's say it's a lead. It moves them to the next step, which might be signing up for your newsletter. It might be signing up for a demo. It might be even reading another blog post. It could be a very soft ask, or it could be a, we need to get them to sign up for a demo right now and really MQL them. So whatever that next phase in their journey, conversion content is basically converts them into that next step.

Makes sense. And so we've seen this, right, with some of the SaaS companies we work with. Sometimes we create a ton of content, we start ranking for them, we start generating traffic, and we see traffic go up, but we don't see down the funnel that that's translating to actual, say, free users, trials, demos, et cetera. So, but it's certain pages where they're probably just not as relevant, right? Maybe, but it's part of the kind of overall cluster of content we're trying to create. But What are some things that companies can do to, first of all, make sure they're measuring and monitoring their success properly when they're creating their content, making sure they're picking the right content, and then what should they be doing and looking at?

Yeah, 100%. So basically when you're looking at the front end, so lead acquisition, when we're talking about the type of content that you mentioned generates a lot of traffic, that is going to be top of funnel, more informational content where it's definitional. Let's say you have a marketing automation platform, sort of what is marketing automation? What is marketing automation? What ROI can I expect to see from implementing a platform? Things that are much higher level. When you start to get down the funnel, so that's top of funnel content. When you get down the funnel to mid-funnel, bottom of funnel, the MOFU and BOFU content, it's going to be very user case based, very specific long tail keyword searches. So that's usually where we start to look at what long tail keyword searches people are actually typing in. And finding out what are the buyer's concerns when we're talking about the buyer ICP. So let's say it's a VP of marketing who might wanna be looking at a new marketing automation platform. Well, they're not going to look for content that is, what is a, what is a marketing automation platform and what companies use it? That is way too top of funnel, way too definitional. We need to get very specific down to the use case, as in what marketing automation platform is better than HubSpot when it comes to multichannel measurement. Something like that is going to be much more specific to the VP of marketing's concerns. And so usually where we start when we work with a company to elevate their content is we create the ICP, the persona battle cards, so that we understand what the persona's pain points and how they actually are expressing them by doing a scrape of often negative reviews on G2 or other review sites where we can see what are people's issues with, with competitor products that we can then leverage into blog posts and content that talk about that pain point and how this specific marketing automation platform solves it.

Yeah, I like that idea. So looking at the competitors, look at G2, look at what are people placing as issues and then, you know, using that as your content. That, that makes sense. But I mean, I'm, I'm trying to think, so use that example, very specific case, right? For, you know, when you're comparing multitouch co-using with HubSpot users, which sounds very direct for a VP of marketing, it could make sense. But what if there's no, there's no search volume? Then are you still creating that content and, you know, trying to promote in other, other areas, or are you just focused on it on the SEO at this point?

Yeah, that's a great point. So in some markets, we don't have enough information that we can glean from negative reviews or even just reviews. Or what competitors are doing out there, there just isn't enough information to dial in to what does that ICP really care about. So at that point, we need to do customer interviews. We need to get the feedback direct from the customer. And any company that isn't doing this on a regular basis, I would strongly recommend that you start. You have regular feedback loops with your customers so that you are improving the product and also capturing the language that they're using When it comes to understanding the most valuable features and functions of the product, how do they express it? What pain points did they say it solves? How does it make their life better? Then utilize those specific words, those keywords and phrases into landing pages, ad campaigns, blog posts, social media, everywhere that you can in order to capture more of that ICP.

Makes sense. And so you suggest, would you go to existing customers? Would you go to, you know, ICP, so would you go on LinkedIn or maybe and find VPs of marketing who are people you wanna work with, or would you do both?

Yeah, it's usually a mix of both. Existing customers are easier because of that existing relationship. When we are going cold, that does prevent— that does produce some challenges certainly in procuring cold CDIs, customer development interviews we call them. But that is a good way to understand the market, and often the cold interviews are going to uncover new pain points and new issues that perhaps you didn't even realize were out there that can be brought into your product development roadmap if you do want to start targeting that ICP more.

Yeah, love it. That makes, makes sense. I guess doing podcasts as well as a way to get around that. I know some people use that as a way of, you know, interviewing customers, but it's a way of, you know, getting them on the show, building relationship, and then you learn how you can, you know, improve your product.

For sure. It's that know, like, and trust factor, right? And, and seeing somebody, seeing their face, talking to them over an online meeting where their guard is down and they're really talking about their, their industry is a great way to help spread their authority, but also develop your authority with them and create that relationship. So it is a wonderful vehicle for creating customers out of your podcast guests.

Yeah, absolutely. How should a company approach incorporating— we talked about the PLG motion— into their go-to-market strategy? That's an important part we see, right?

Yeah, this is something that we see a lot lately where companies that have been focused mid-market to enterprise are now starting to add in a PLG motion to capture, capture the smaller end of the market. And really, it's if you think about the evolution of the buyer over the last 5 years, really people have become very, very, very educated on the options that they have today. The internet has grown to what it is today, where a lot of people have already done about 60% of the research that they need to do before they ever talk to a salesperson. And so we wanna make sure that there is enough information on a company website for to be able to not only allow them to self-serve all of this research, but also make sure that we're controlling the message that we're putting out there. So they're not getting, they're not doing research from other company websites, competitor websites, or places where we want to make sure that the message isn't garbled, that it's clear, it's concise, and it's consistent with what our brand is. And that is really the goal in building out the website to make sure that we are anticipating all of some, what somebody's needs are. answering those questions ahead of time so they can self-serve that information and then say they can sign up whenever they're ready. Right now, they don't have to wait to talk to a salesperson, and it essentially is reducing friction in the process. So, the goal of PLG is always to reduce friction, which I'm a huge fan of. You need to make it easy for people to buy from you.

Yeah.

And the sort of established 2-step motion that a lot of mid-market enterprise companies have gone to market with, with a sales team, involves like prequalification call, and then you have to set up a demo, and then you have, you know, then it's converted to an opportunity in your CRM, and then you have to walk it through the CRM stages. And you, as a buyer, buyers don't necessarily want to buy that way. And so PLG is essentially matching that experience to how buyers wanna buy, which is basically give me the information now so that I can sign up now and try it out right now.

Makes sense. I mean, how much, content is enough, I guess, at this point? Because you can go endless kind of funnels and, you know, loops of stages of where people— the buyer's journey looks like, right? But, you know, if I'm getting started go-to-market, I want to start getting people in through the funnel. What are kind of your basics, fundamentals that you like to start with, or maybe, you know, build upon from there? What's your kind of process?

For sure. It does depend on the vertical. Who's your ICP? How much do they need to make a decision? We find that when we are dealing with companies where there is a buying unit and we do have— we're dealing with VPs, we're dealing with IT, we're dealing with finance, then there needs to be much more information because of this buying unit that you have to deal with. So that is more of that 2-step process where we now are trying to add in PLG but still make sure that the buying unit's needs are addressed. When we have an individual user that can sign up on their own. Typically we say about 5 to 10 blog posts is a good start for a company blog that speaks to the needs of that ICP and the pain points they experience, as well as customer case studies. We say about a minimum of 3 is what we're looking for. So that's just to give you some numbers in terms of what content needs to be out there. We also wanna make sure that there is a presence on social, at least one social platform. Usually LinkedIn, but it can be Facebook. We want to see at least, I want to say at least, it depends how old the company is, but we want to see at least 1 to 3 posts a week that are just updates to make sure that the company looks legitimate and has something to say out there, is putting thought leadership out there, as well as sharing customer results. We want to see a lot of that in the mix. And we want to make sure that the company has a platform, not just a website and a social media platform, but one other platform. So whether it's G2 or GetApp or Software Advice, at least one other platform out there, even if there are no reviews. We work with companies to do incentivized review campaigns through G2 or Software Advice to get reviews. But the point is having at least a presence in these 3 different places.

Great. So those are the basics these days. So if you want to start, you know, your go-to-market strategy, you've got to have those fundamentals. I mean, basics when people are looking at you, it's no longer just your website. People are looking around and then they make a kind of a decision, right?

Yeah, for sure. When you're selling B2B and selling to companies, if you're selling to entrepreneurs, individuals, people who are musicians, people who have a robust business, but they are a business of one. Then break those rules. Those are not hard and fast. When you're selling to individuals, less can often work. Launch on AppSumo or Product Hunt or something, and you can often get away with much less. But if you're selling to B2B, around those numbers is what we advise.

Yeah, that's a good metric. Cool. What are your top 3 maybe effective techniques that you love to use for growing a B2B SaaS business? Share your top 3.

Yeah. All right. So one of our top 3 is going to always be outbound.

Okay.

It's why we don't call ourselves a marketing content company, because people think of marketing as so much of it is inbound. We really, really stress outbound. You have to be able to initiate conversations with potential buyers. And so one of our strategies is to create outbound campaigns. Where we are reaching out to lists of potential buyers and actually pitching them. And I would recommend one of the first technologies that a SaaS company gets, gets if they're going to sign up for anything, sign up for something like Lavender, try Lavender or smartwriter.ai, something that can help you write better sales emails so that you can effectively pitch in cold emails. We see the greatest ROI come from tools like that for even if you're still sending one-to-one, even if you don't have sales automation in place, just writing better sales emails is a much— is honestly the most effective way to start creating conversations, getting user feedback in the market, getting CDIs, and getting your first customers.

Sorry, so what you said, Lavender was one, what was the other one? Smart SmartWriter.ai. SmartWriter.ai.

Very similar.

And are you, are you suggesting email or LinkedIn or combination typically?

Depends where your audience is.

Makes sense.

Yeah.

Okay, so that's outbound. Is there any others that you love to use that you recommend?

So one thing that can make everyone's life easier is automation. And when a SaaS company is starting out, you want to start with a very lean tech stack. I wouldn't recommend signing up for Salesforce immediately. I know we all want to, or Or even HubSpot immediately. These are large systems, they take a while to configure, and they also are a pretty high cost. So carefully weigh cost versus value. And in the beginning, you can often get away with like an Airtable of, with a list. And actually you can layer an automation off of Airtable. Like you can use Zapier, which is getting more expensive, but you could try bardeen.ai. That's the lately one that we really like to basically layer in automation so that you can utilize it as a Kind of a low-tech CRM, at least for the time being, before you really take the plunge and go into a very robust CRM.

That's a good idea. I like that. Everybody kind of jumps into the big stuff. They think that's going to make their company a lot more valuable. But I do like, you know, Airtable is great. It's the first time I heard about bardeen.ai, but we'll put that in the show notes for people to check out.

Yeah, definitely check that out. We like that a lot. It's a lot cheaper than Zapier. And honestly, a lot of companies end up spending a lot of money because they're like, okay, we wanna sell to mid-market, so we need those tools immediately. I always recommend holding off until you have enough runway to really justify it because you're always looking at how much, how much cash you have in the bank. You, you know, you're gonna be spending on some really good outreach people who are going to be doing that appointment setting for you or layer in at Layering in that PLJ motion. So you need product development, you need to be spending where it makes the most sense. So do what you can to get tools that will automate or take some of the lift off of you so that you are not dealing with a CRM reconfiguration like straight out of the gate.

Yeah, yeah, I love it.

Good.

So any other techniques or is that good?

So those, those are 2. One other thing that we recommend is again automation for tasks that you do routinely. So with social media, there's often tasks that you have to constantly— when you put out a blog post, you need to make a LinkedIn post about it or something like that. And you always need to grab the header image and then layer on some words onto it, right? It's like this, this sort of rote task. So we recommend automating them wherever possible. And a great tool is Banner Bear. Banner Bear, actually, you can program, take this image, add these words, and just do it every time I publish a blog post on this blog. So it's a, it's even a little bit like the next level beyond Zapier. So it will actually create the image and post it for you on social so that you don't have to do it every single time. And you can actually free up a lot of your time by leveraging Banner Bear to create content that you actually are already putting out there on a platform.

Love it. I've never heard of this either. Bannerbear.com. So you can both images and videos. Cool. Yeah, we'll add those to the show notes for people to check out. So any technology that, you know, last kind of question here in terms of tech that we're talking about, is there any that you prioritize implementing for SaaS companies?

Yeah. So basically making sure that if you're using Airtable or Excel sheet or Google Sheet or something as your CRM, making sure that you've mapped that customer journey. So that's not actually tech, but it's implementing it into your tech, making sure that the customer journey stages through the lead process, through the opportunity process, if you go to market via those 2 steps, or even if you do a PLG motion and you have PQLs and, and all that, making sure that you've mapped every single touchpoint that a person would go through to become a customer and then beyond. Once they become a customer, what happens? What does the onboarding process look like? What does expansion look like on their account? Make sure that every single stage is mapped and that is reflected in whether you're using Airtable or whether you're using HubSpot. So Getting the framework for that right in the beginning is really key because going back and changing the stages and steps in your CRM is a huge process and it is going to mess up historical reporting forever. So try to get your large buckets of that, of each step that someone might go through during that process. Don't get too granular, just go larger when you're mapping out that customer journey.

Makes sense. And do you guys help with the implementation or planning and strategy of that as well?

Yeah, we do. We help with the sales process design.

Nice. Cool. This has been really helpful, Carly. I appreciate you sharing all these tips and advice here. We also want to mention before we get into the rapid-fire questions that Carly's been generous and kind enough to provide a gift to everybody listening in. So if you listen to this point, she's given a gift to all of our listeners. She has a PDF which is called Become a Content Machine: The Conversion Content System, which we talked about today in more detail. You can go to revspark.com/saas-district. So we'll put that link into the show notes. But if you want to speak quickly about that and then we get into the rapid-fire questions.

Yeah, definitely. It's something that we developed after about 6 years of building content strategy and executing content for SaaS companies. It lays out step by step how to create a month's worth of content from just a single one piece of content, some tools and tips and tricks on how to do this, and especially how to execute on it when you are a very small lean team. So that actually is extremely helpful when companies implement it. We often see that they reduce their content creation time by about 80%. So really take a look at that, see if you can follow the instructions and give us feedback. How'd it go for you? We'd love to hear.

Yeah, no, thank you. People are looking to save time, create content, repurpose. RevSpark or evvspark.com/saas. Districts. We'll put that in the show notes for you guys to download. Cool, Carly. So ready to get into the rapid-fire questions?

Yeah, let's go for it.

All right. What's one activity you enjoy outside of work that gets you into flow state?

Mushrooming. And I don't mean— I do mean taking trips, but I mean taking trips to the forest and getting completely lost in them. Finding edible mushrooms. It's something I got into during the pandemic, and it's something that it just— it's like a treasure hunt, and I love free food.

Yeah.

So I have created so many gourmet meals, enjoyed so many new recipes, and found so many mushrooms. And at this point, my partner and I, we can recognize over 22 edible mushrooms and 20 non-edible ones. And it's just— it's seriously the most fun thing ever. It's like an Easter egg hunt, but better.

That's awesome. Where do you guys find these mushrooms? Where are you guys going for—

Yeah, so we live in Oregon, and so Oregon is— we actually have a state mushroom, the chanterelle. We're like the only state with a state mushroom. I know it's crazy, but it's like normally you can't actually try these gourmet mushrooms unless you go to basically restaurants and have a chef prepare them for you. And so we go to just mountains here. The Cascades are amazing. And recently we got over 20 9 pounds of golden Pacific golden chanterelles and white chanterelles. And it's just when you have that many, it's like at this point I could probably open a store for them. I won't do it, but everybody got mushrooms for Christmas.

That's awesome. I'd love to have some mushrooms for as a gift too.

Well, I'll send them to you next time, but next time we go. So right now it's yellowfoot chanterelles and hedgehogs is the season.

Okay, interesting. Carly, what's one piece of advice you wish you had known? And if you can go back, you would tell your, say, 25-year-old self?

I would tell my 25-year-old self that the journey is never linear, to enjoy the meandering paths and switchbacks and false starts in life, because each one will teach you something.

Everything's a lesson. Yeah. What are some of the biggest challenges you're currently facing in order to continue to grow your firm, RevSpark? Meaning what What keeps you up at night these days?

Yeah, so really finding exceptional talent is, has always been a challenge because we want to provide exceptional results to our clients. So that requires people who think outside the box, who are willing to try different ways of solving problems, who are able to use data to solve their problems, and who are able to grow and thrive in an agency model. We have a global workforce. People can work their own hours. We have someone who lives in the Cayman Islands and they work on the weekends. But it just, we're very flexible when it comes to work hours, but we want to find exceptional people who have a lot of pride in what they do, want to produce great work, and are able to really self-direct. So that has always been a challenge and we're always looking for more people.

Love it. Is there any certain role you guys are looking for right now? If anybody's looking for a new role or project?

Yeah, graphic design and copywriting. We are always looking for those 2.

All right, awesome. We'll put that— we'll put the link to your show notes of your website where people can apply as well. Cool. Next question, who are the— or what are some of the best, maybe top 3 resources? This can be, you know, people, books, mentors, or people you follow in the space who've been most instrumental to your success over these last few years.

Yeah, I'll give you 3. So 3 books that have really changed my life. One is Never Eat Alone by Keith Ferrazzi. It is, I am an introvert, and so networking with people and making sure that people and new relationships are part of your daily routine, I've always found a challenge. And so he lays it out, he has an incredible strategy for doing it. I've followed it for years. I would highly recommend that book to creating better relationships and really making sure that the people in your life you honor and treat importantly.

Never Eat Alone. Okay, that's the first one.

What's the next one? Yeah, another one is The Mom Test by Rob Fitzpatrick. And I love this one because it really talks about having great conversations with your customers and with potential users and asking the right questions. And I see a lot of companies asking the wrong questions because the questions are often biased and they lead to biased results. They lead to answers where someone feels a need to say, oh yeah, I like that, Yeah, sure, I would buy it, but then they actually don't. So this book actually guides you into how to, like, what questions to ask and how to understand the answers so that you can actually build it into the product that you're building and make sure that you are getting actual real feedback that is going to help move the needle forward.

Cool. What's the next one?

Yeah, so the last one is Tiny Beautiful Things by Cheryl Strayed. And if you haven't read it, so this is not a business If you haven't read it, it's amazing. It's absolutely amazing. It's very, very touching and emotional, and it really helps you appreciate the small things in life. It's difficult to describe all of the different things that this book covers, but it is— it really helps you appreciate everything that you have, everything that you might have, and everything that is out there.

Tiny, beautiful things. Yeah, I think that sounds beautiful. Love it. We'll add that to the show notes as well. People check out. Cool. Carly, it seems, you know, obviously you've had great success in your firm so far. You know, you're doing well in terms of where you're positioning yourself. What does success mean to you today, whether that's personally, business, financial life? I guess there's no right answer.

Yeah, I love helping companies grow. That is key. Companies that are doing some good in the world, that are helping Helping other people do things better, more efficiently, faster. I love to see companies succeed. I love to be part of that story. And personally, spending time with people and projects that matter. That's really key. Yeah.

So simple, but so effective.

Yeah. Yeah.

Kali, we're— thank you for everything. I mean, where can founders, marketers, anybody listening in, where can our listeners get in touch with you, learn more about you, your company? Um, or anything else you want to share before we end this interview?

Yeah, for sure. You can find me at revspark.com. That's R-E-double-Z spark.com. And you can also find me on LinkedIn. I have an unusual name. There's only one of me in the world. I am easy to find. I would love to connect with you on LinkedIn.

Okay, awesome. We'll add that revspark.com, guys. Check it out. Thank you so much, Karli. Appreciate you jumping on today.

Thanks so much, Akeel. It's been great.

Cheers. Thank you all for watching this episode and joining SaaS District today. Don't forget to like, subscribe, and hit the bell for future episodes where we interview top leaders in the SaaS industry. If you're a SaaS company looking to grow and unlock the true value of your business, get in touch with us at Horizon Capital and myself or one of our consultants will provide a free assessment to help you get there and hit If you have any feedback or suggestions for this podcast, please comment down below and help us improve our content for you all. Thanks again, and see you on the next one.