HoriZen Capital's Investment Manager | Pierre-Alexandre Heurtebize on Q2 Deals Review and 2020 goals

Hello, hello everyone. Welcome back to another episode of SaaS District. On today's episode, we'll be doing a little bit something a little bit different. I want to make it a bit more personal for you guys and openly share what's been going on behind the scenes inside Horizon Capital. Both good and bad over the last few months. Post-COVID has hit everybody, obviously, and what our plan is for going into Q3. So we'll do something a little different. Well, we're going to review some of the deals that we looked at in Q2, and I have Pierre from our team. He's our investment manager. He's going to be talking about kind of what the deals he's looking at, what's been going on, and just share a bit of background. So hope you guys like the show. Pierre, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. Yeah, no worries. So it's your turn to be on the spotlight today. For those people who don't know you, you've never been on the podcast yet, can you share your background and what you did before joining our team at Horizen?

Yeah, no, definitely. So I started my career in private equity where I was already focusing on small-cap companies in a company which is called Izatis Capital. After that, I moved to PwC in transaction services where I spent 5 years between Paris and Sydney where we learned how to dig deeper into the financials of the companies, really understand, you know, where the risk lies and how to analyze numbers efficiently. And then after that, I started basically trying to launch my own consultancy Practice, and that's where I started meeting you. So I was doing financial analysis, I was doing financial models, and I had the opportunity to start working with Horizen. Loved the idea, and here I am one year later.

Yeah, so I call you the financial wizard. You have everything I need. I mean, you're the magician that makes everything happen with numbers. Why did you decide to join the team back in, I think it was August 2019 now, so almost a year?

Yeah, it was. Exactly.

What was your thinking at the time?

So basically when I started trying to make it on my own, my main purpose was to try a model where I would work remotely 100%. And to be honest, that was a hard choice for me because I've kind of always seen me work in private equity, but I thought that the private equity model would be solely in historical and usual practice, private equity firm where you need to be in Paris, New York, and London. So when I got the opportunity to start working with you, that was the best way to combine my will to work remotely and to do exactly what I want in life, working in private equity. On top of that, I looked at the project and Horizon Project. I think that's— and I thought and still think that the SaaS businesses are definitely the right market to be looking at. Because even before COVID the market was growing increasingly fast. I think COVID is just going to accelerate that. I think we had a good fit, you and me, from the start as well. And I really like the approach of being flexible on how we approach the different transactions, how we can structure it and negotiate. And I think the other side of Horizen that I really appreciated is the fact that we acquire the company, but we also have the team to grow the company. And I think that was the only piece that was missing when I was working in private equity, is sometimes I felt like we were just the finance arm for the company and we didn't really, you know, bring a lot on the table in terms of growing the company. So now I feel like we have a 360 added value to the company we invest in.

All right, you're no longer just a bank with a check to write, right? What's your main focus at the moment? What do you do? So you're the investment manager with us. What does your day-to-day look like for people who are speaking to you?

Yeah, so I'm actually doing a lot of things because I think it goes with the entrepreneurial state of mind in which we are at Horizen. So I can end up writing an article in the morning Looking at financial news and the market during my lunch, then manage the interns on doing some financial analysis and review of the opportunities we have. And then during late afternoon, I'm going to reach out on LinkedIn to potential targets, engaging in conversation, having calls, introductory calls with CEOs. So pretty much full-on day where everything is so interesting. So I guess the main challenge that we have at the moment, especially with the current team that we have, is we're getting a lot of traction at the moment. So we're reviewing quite a few deals and very interesting ones. And at the same time, we want to keep on the momentum and still want to build our deal flow. So I'm really trying to manage my time between focusing on finding new deals, reaching out to new CEOs, and getting the current deals done.

Okay, so managing kind of both sides of the equation. So if anybody is looking to sell their SaaS company or looking for some investment, you're probably the first person you need to talk to would be Pierre. He looks at all the numbers and whatnot. So I thought I'd do something.

Send me your IM, be happy to.

Awesome. So I want to do something a little different. I thought to make this kind of more fun, I think a lot of people like to see what's going on behind the scenes and kind of dissect some deals live here. So we picked 3 deals before, before the call that we've been reviewing in the last couple of months. Some we are deciding to move forward with, some we're still in conversation with, and one I think we're still— I don't think we're going to get to a deal and we'll explain why. So Sure. Maybe, you know, let's get deep into the details. What is the revenue? What is the churn? What is the age? What kind of valuation are we paying? What are the risks we're looking at? Why did we decide to move forward and why we didn't, so that other people can learn and apply the same things here? So feel free to start off with any one of them. Obviously, don't label any names, but you can say the industry at least.

Yeah, of course. So to just start with the kind of structure and investment criteria that we have, Generally speaking, we're going to look at companies that generate between $500K and $5 million in revenue annual, that have been going in business for at least 3 years. Ideally, they've been in business for at least 5 to 7 years. I think that would be more sweet spot. That have a churn rate of less than 5% per month and LTV of more than $1,500, simply because Since our whole business model is to increase revenue through investing in digital marketing, we do need this kind of operational metrics for us to make sense and to be able to drive and accelerate the revenue. So in terms of the 3 opportunities, I think we can start with the first one. They're basically offering marketing platforms specialized— sorry, focused on industrial sellers, for sellers of construction products, which is directed to architects, construction manufacturers, and that allows them to present their products in a very detailed way and help architects make their choice and select the product and buy it on the platform. We've been looking at the deal for quite a long time now because it was postponed due to COVID. And we can say that we're really happy with what they managed to deliver. So they're still pretty small in terms of revenues, they're at around $500K. Their churn rate is like 3-4% per month, so it's reasonable. And in terms of valuation, we're looking at their growth rates. They've been growing at approximately 20% year on year. Not super profitable, but still making a profit. So we kind of offer the valuation more in the 2.5, 3 times revenue range because we feel like that they've demonstrated they managed to go through COVID quite successfully.

Right.

And even though we don't think the market is that big, right? You're not going to have hundreds of billion-dollar markets. We do think that the market is growing, is big enough, and we do think that compared to their competitors, they're one of the best out there. Their platform is really well done. Just having a look at it, you can see how well-designed their platform is. And since we know a bit about the backend, we also know they are very well positioned. to get a lot of market shares. And post-COVID, we do believe that it will accelerate the growth of the market with all the architects and manufacturers going more and more online. So we've been to a point where now we're ready to close the deal with them and we're pretty excited about it.

So right about $500K in revenue and you said $2.5 million. I think our offer and what we're looking at is around that $1.3 million, right, is what we're looking at. Looking to close that. What was the LTV on that and why was the seller looking to sell that business at this point if they're growing 25% or 20% year over year? I think they had a team of about 10 people on there. So he has a decent team, he's growing salespeople, has a good product. Why was he selling?

Yeah, for sure. Very great questions. So the LTV when we first started to look at the company was around $2,500, but it has been growing simply because they also managed to upsell their current clients and they managed to increase their price as well. So LTV is growing as we speak, basically. The reason why they sold and they were looking to sell, and I think that's definitely the kind of conversation that we like to have, is The business is more than 8 or 9 years old. So the founder is a first-time founder. He has created a very great product, managed to bring it to $500K in annual revenue, which I think is a very good achievement, especially when that's your first company. And he got to a point where he wants to move on to another project. He wants to be able to cash out on his project and cash out on his years of work. and move on to something new. So I think we're the right partners in that sense because he also wants the company to still grow. He still sees that not just as something he built to be sold, but as his baby. And by partnering with us, his hope is that we're going to continue growing that company. And also we're trying to go to expand to the United States. States. So it's pretty, pretty exciting moments.

Yeah, I'm personally super excited about this. I know we've been chatting with this, this company since, yeah, post, uh, back in 2019. Uh, we were planning to close or send an LOI back, I think, in January or February. Uh, COVID hit. We wanted to see the impact of how it affected a lot of things, and then obviously travel restrictions. So we're hoping to, uh, you know, they're based in the UK. Once travel kind of opens up, we'll, we'll go down and try to close that deal. by September. So yeah, personally super excited to grow that company. What's number 2? Let's hear the second one.

Yeah, okay. So number 2, they're specialized in emailing. They basically allow you or allow the company to send personalized email for each of their customers based on their browsing history, based on the data they have in their database. And the email is going to— the content in the email is going to update every time you open the email depending on the time of the day and depending on what your activities in the past few days were, basically. So we thought that was totally aligned with our investment criteria because marketing, sales, and every tool related to productivity are part of our major verticals and also because your background is in digital marketing, so that makes a lot of sense for us to acquire this type of companies. Started looking at the revenue. They had around $2 million in revenue from memory. We thought that we could really strike a deal at around a $3 million valuation. However, it turned out that when we got to a later stage and we looked at the different information around pipeline and breakdown of customers. The first thing that we saw is that a few customers, because they're more targeting enterprise-level customers, so we know that the sales cycle is longer, which is a certain level of risk for us, especially in the current COVID situation. They had 2 customers that were representing together like 25 or 30% of their revenue, which is another issue. It appeared from our conversation that a lot of commercial relationship was dependent on one particular person at each company. So that means that we're taking a lot of risk by acquiring the company because we may lose that relationship. And what we were really worried about was the pipeline because we felt like compared to the size of the We knew the pipeline at the moment was pretty weak. So we still were interested in the technology and acquiring the company. However, we would have been comfortable acquiring that company only at a lower valuation, around $2.5 million. And also, we needed a high level of earnouts just to make sure that we were not losing those customers post-transaction. Those were not aligned with the objective and the financial objective of the owners. So at this moment, this deal is on pause. Maybe in a few years.

Yeah, yeah, I really like that company. I mean, the product itself, right, the dynamic changing and personalization of each email, a good-sized team, right? They had about 10 people or so. They were very focused on product. They even said, we don't know how to grow this. We tried to hire marketing and salespeople, And it just failed every time. So I think it was a good fit on that way. But yeah, when you know they presented, I think it was yeah almost two million. And then when we looked deeper into it, there was a couple of them that churned. Some were actually no longer active. Some were on pause. So when you go look to the actual what we can expect in sales, I think it was closer to like one point one. So we said, "Wait, well, we're not going to pay three million upfront if even this one point one, a lot of it is dependent on two or three clients if we." lost them, which is highly, not highly, but it is possible in this environment. So we tried to structure it to say, okay, well, we'll give you something. We do still want to work with you. But they were looking for, I think, close to $3.5 million, at least million for their price, right, of what they were looking to sell for. And I think we just couldn't reach.

Yeah, exactly. And we couldn't reach an agreement just looking at all the contracts that were on pause also because Part of their customers were actually travel agencies or related to travel companies. So yeah, in the current situation, we felt like we couldn't come up to their valuation.

Yeah, I like the enterprise size. I mean, all these deals were long-term contracts, $40,000 to $100,000 a year, which was good. Huge LTVs and sticky. But yeah, let's see if they ever come back and Hopefully we can have another conversation.

Yeah, cool. And they were also pretty good from a product perspective because we're basically saying that 50% of their leads were picking them and the other person was picking the leaders in the market. So to me, that's actually a good sign that they managed to compete directly with the bigger guys out there.

Exactly. Cool. What's number 3? Let's get to the last one.

Yeah, so number 3 is also an interesting opportunity, very different from what we have seen before, but I do believe that there is definitely room for us to get involved and strike a deal at the end of the road. So these guys are specialized in analysis of tweets on Twitter, basically. They're able to generate reports on how specific hashtags is trending, for instance, or giving you some insight on how your brand is perceived on Twitter. And so we believe that they've built a really good product. They've been experiencing growth for the past 2 years. However, they are at a point where, from their word themselves, they have no idea how to grow the business. I strongly believe that they are really good at product development. They have a lot of good ideas. They also have a lot of good products in the pipe, but they struggle a bit on how to focus on the right product and how to grow it to make it financially viable and profitable. And I believe that if they are open, from my discussion, if they are open to sell at the moment, it's not necessarily that they want to sell, it's just that they don't see any other solution because they see themselves going nowhere. So I do believe that we can add a lot of value on that one by partnering with them first because the company is too small at the moment for us to acquire.

What's the size of it?

It's around $400K in revenue.

Okay.

So it's under our threshold. Even their profitability I mean, they are just break-even or slightly not profitable. So the metrics don't look good enough for us to acquire them, especially because they are at that stage where for them to make sense, for a transaction to make sense, they would need at least $1 million. And we can absolutely understand that, right? They've been working on the product, they give value to the product, to the IP, to what they've built. However, us looking at the number from a financial perspective, $1 million would be way too risky. So I think the very good deal that we could make with them would be for us to get involved on a partnership level where we would help them grow the company. Because with your expertise and the expertise of our team, I do think that we would be the right fit to improve the pricing, to improve the positioning and the digital marketing. And if we can grow the company together, then it's easier for us to make a transaction and buy the company when it's at $2 million or $3 million revenue. And I think it's a really win-win situation because us, we would be buying good companies that we already know. So we considerably reduce our risk. And from the seller perspective, he would get several million out of it instead of selling it for $1 million now.

Yeah. And it's a funny thing that that founder actually reached out to me on LinkedIn. He actually found me through Nathan Latka's YouTube Live session. So if you guys haven't checked that out, I was on a Shark Tank session with Nathan. Yeah, Nathan's a good guy. So I was on there, he found me. We're in a conversation to hopefully partner together. Yeah, that's a great company. I see lots of potential with it, and I can see it's a little messy in terms of their operations and how they run the business. But product looks good, and I think we can do some good things. And I think they're based in Spain. I think they have a good in-house team there. So another European deal. So three out of three there that we talked about, interestingly, all based in Europe.

Yeah, yeah, cool. That must tell us that. Maybe the traction is in Europe instead of the United States.

I guess, yeah, we might have to change our model there. What impact in deals and conversations have you seen with the— you're having, you know, what, 7, 8, 9 conversations a week with entrepreneurs? How has COVID affected them? How has it affected their cash flow? How has that affected our deal flow in the last few months?

So I would tend to think that I have not seen a clear impact on COVID on the conversation. And I think it's because people who have been really impacted by COVID doesn't answer our call, simply. I think what we've seen is we have had more conversation of companies raising funds or trying to sell because of COVID because they're running out of cash because of it. Or we've also had some conversation of people who were in the middle of raising before COVID and their investors kind of bailed out on them. So they're trying to get funds to get going. But overall, I was expecting more conversation of people trying to sell their business because they were seeing their sales decline. I personally haven't seen that. Seen a lot of that. I think the conversation I had were mostly people who were resilient with COVID I guess the other small issue that we may have is some people who would have been perfect targets for us pre-COVID actually are not anymore because they see so much traction that their valuation expectation is way above what we'd be able to offer.

Interesting. Yeah, it's funny that I remember when COVID first hit back, I think when we were having this conversation, I think in February or March, you know, we were talking to a lot of other investors or buyers and they were just looking for all these opportunities. They were just on Sharks and looking for all these companies that were going to be suffering and just pounce on them. And I guess they're not there, right? We haven't seen them anyway. So I don't know if there was some of those opportunities happen in transactions, but I think the ones that got hit hard were just Failed miserably, right? I mean, like, you see that like in airlines or, you know, some of the big guys, right?

Yeah. And I remember the conversation we had just when COVID hit, when we were trying to see how we could twist our approach and deciding whether we would try to target companies hit by COVID or that we would try to reduce our valuation. And at the end, we basically decided to keep Keep our valuation at the same level, but maybe add more earn-out components because we thought that would be more fair to the companies. And I do think that was the right approach, looking back at it, because the conversation I had are people who managed to go through COVID. So they wouldn't— it wouldn't feel right for them to accept a lower valuation because they've proven that they could make it through the current situation. However, they generally understand that obviously the current situation is still unstable and that the earnout piece is to give us the certainty that we're paying for what the company is going to deliver within the next 6 or 12 months.

Exactly. And I think that was a— we made a good shift. We had a good conversation at that point where all of our deals were on hold. I know some of our investors were maybe a little bit, you know, on edge, which is understandable. So we said, okay, well, what can we do? Yeah. So we said, let's shift our focus a little bit. Let's try and help some entrepreneurs here grow their business. Maybe we can apply our playbook to help them grow and maybe from there move into some acquisition or other partnership level. 2 companies we did start working with, DropSend and Postalytics. They start— so we're starting for both of those, we're doing a conversion rate optimization program to help them improve their conversions and signups. And then eventually we'll move to SEO, some paid advertising. We see a lot of huge opportunity with both those companies. And that's what we're doing right now and we're working with. So we like those partnerships as well because those are— some people are just not ready to sell, but we said, let's still work together here and then we can both win in the end, right?

Yeah, I really like that approach because you also keep the conversation going. It makes a lot of sense for us when we reach out to entrepreneurs because we can help them either by acquiring them or by helping them raise funds or helping them on the digital marketing side. And that makes the conversation so much interesting for us because we're ticking a lot of boxes and a lot of the needs that they may have. Exactly, exactly.

And then Another shift we made, so not only that is, you know, once we decided to really double down on our deal flow and hit it hard during this period while, you know, deals were maybe on hold, is we decided to hire interns. So we brought on at least 2, right, full-time on our team. They joined us a couple months ago to help us review deals. We give them the insights on how to analyze the companies in exchange of learning. Can you share a little bit, you know, what the process was there and And how that experience has been in the last few months with you leading that?

Yeah, definitely. My experience with the Twin Zone has been really great. I really appreciate their help and I'm trying to touch base with them on a daily basis and also to have monthly proper official feedback from them to make sure that they appreciate the experience. And so far my understanding is They're really happy with the learning experience. Because the— so the deal in taking on interns is for them to help us out with the outreach, with all the different tasks that we don't have the time to do on our own. And in exchange, we provide them proper training, take time to sit with them virtually, obviously, and explain all the different steps of a deal and all the different negotiation structure. And we're really trying to involve them in all the conversations that we have with entrepreneurs. And I think it's really a win-win situation as well, because one of the interns who has been with us the longest is now at a point where he definitely stepped up and he's handling the outreach by himself. He's getting the really good calls booked. And then he's handling the conversation as well with the CEOs, right? Presenting the company, presenting Horizen, all different services, also asking questions about the financials, having generally very good insight based on his own experience. And I'm always here as a backup when he feels like that, you know, he reached a point where he doesn't really know how to answer. So I think that relationship has been going very well. With the other one, we've been a bit more focused on the financial analysis part of it. And since I've been there, especially with my training at PwC, I know how it feels like and how overwhelming it can be to start with a lot of financial analysis, starting from scratch. So I'm really trying to work with him on making him understand how to be as efficient as possible and the importance of presenting the financials in a nicely formatted way. Because sometimes, especially when you're a younger analyst, you kind of picture financial analysis as something cool where you're going to analyze stuff. What you don't realize is in real life, A lot of time needs to be taken just to present those financials in a nice way, which is going to increase and make the whole process way faster. And you need to think about other people who will get involved, like you, for instance. If you open a data pack for the first time, you don't want to see numbers all over the place. And if everything is clearly defined and summarized, everyone saves time. Exactly.

Yeah, makes sense. So I'm also super grateful to have both of them, Maxwell and James. So shout out to them. We are also—I know Pierre is also in the current process of hiring at the moment. We are looking to add at least one or two more interns in the coming months. So if you guys are looking for an opportunity, connect with Pierre on LinkedIn, or you can hit me up on Twitter @Akil Jabbar. So I want to talk about another point here. So we. You're usually having, we talked about 7 to 9 new conversations with founders every week. What's the number one reason we're saying no to these deals? I think we say no to maybe 95% of the opportunities that come our way, right? So we're viewing all this thing, what do people think we are and we're not?

Exactly, so the number one reason why we say no is because people see private equity, they think we do capital raise, so we do provide M&A advisory to help them raise funds, where we're going to handle the whole process from putting together the I&Ms, the financials, looking for the right investor for them and helping them in the negotiation. That's something we do. However, we don't invest ourselves in companies that are looking to raise capital. The core focus on our business model is to acquire companies, and I see a lot of companies Because we get a lot of people reaching out to us thinking that we're going to be the one investing capital into their company. And so generally speaking, the main issue we have with that because we could consider doing capital raise if the company had exactly the metrics we're looking for. But generally speaking, the companies that reach out to us, they're more More VC type. So they're looking for 10 times revenue valuation multiples, they've been growing 100% year on year, and that's definitely not our business model in terms of acquisition.

Acquisitions, VC, 2 separate things, guys. We're not a VC, we don't want 10%, we do majority buyouts. So unless you're— or at least, yeah, you have to be at a certain threshold. So we don't do pre-revenue as well, we get a lot of those who are just starting off. So yeah, just, just to be clear there, just, I want to share kind of people who try to understand what our timeline looks like. Let's look at this one deal that we are looking to close in now in September. When did we first start that conversation with them? So how long altogether did it take to close right now? Or let's remove COVID in the middle.

Yeah, so that's actually a funny question because I remember I read a blog post on private equity investors who were detailing all the emails, or who was counting all the emails he exchanged with the target before closing, and saying how many emails on average it was. And given the number of emails and conversations we had so far, I reckon that's something I'm going to do if we close this deal. So we started the conversation around— November, I believe.

Okay.

We were to a point where we were ready to make an offer just before March. Obviously, we had to postpone the deal for 4 months due to COVID. And so we restarted the conversation last month and now we're at the point where we just issued an LOI. So taking the assumption that there is no COVID, I reckon in 4 or 5 months, we would get to a point of LOI and then we are counting 2 more months to close the deal.

So 6 months?

Yeah, 6 months and things could have been faster. Generally, the rapidity or the timeline of a deal is also highly dependent on the responsiveness of the CEO. In this case, I reckon it has been Fairly responsive. However, since we had also some metrics that we wanted to confirm and look if the trends in revenue were being confirmed, I reckon that deals took a little bit longer than what they could have been if we were sure 100% from the start and 100% comfortable with everything.

Exactly. And I think they also had a bunch of investors on their cap table that they had to run decisions with. Decisions with. So it wasn't just a one-person decision-making. So I mean, yeah, 6 months, I think that's pretty realistic, right? If we can get things as quickly as possible. There's a lot of back and forth getting to a deal. And then, you know, we typically like to close within 60 days. So I guess, you know, let's call it 4 months when we start conversations. We'd like to close the deal short as possible. So yeah, at least looking to do at least 2 or 3 deals a year. So just wrapping this up, I guess, you Review, so that was kind of Q2. Moving into Q3, hoping to close at least one of these deals for September. Possibly at least one more would be a good win. Hopefully, if travel opens up, things go back to normal. Whatever that is, possibly looking to hire internships in the next month or two. A couple, at least two, I think is what we're looking for.

So basically, for the interns at the moment, we're looking for one intern who's kind of the same profile of the 2 we already have, would be focused on deals origination and working more on the PE side, focusing on either reaching out to potential acquisition targets, reaching out to new network, helping us build our network and participating in calls. And we're also looking for a more experienced intern, like ideally someone with 2 or 3 years of investment banking experience, just finishing up his MBA, to work on the M&A advisory side of Horizen.

Got it. And I think I'd like to open up one other spot if there's any SaaS owners who are looking for a partnership for growth marketing. I think in Q3 we'd be open to working with one other company if you guys need help in your growth and you have sustainable growth or revenue size, we're open to that. What else do you see in Q3? I'd like to focus a lot more on marketing. So you'll see a lot more podcasting, you know, try to make it a little better. We have a few more team members coming on to help us expand our marketing to build our inbound engine. What else do you see as some good targets to hit? And we can look back and—

Yeah, so what I would like to do. I think we've been really good at getting together SOP and process to reach out to potential targets. I think we've been a bit behind on really building the network from— of professionals to get referrals. So we'd be reaching out to lawyers, reaching out to VCs, and really building that network of people who can think about us and reach out if they have deals that correspond to our investment criteria. I'd like to focus on that while keeping the same momentum on what we've already managed to achieve so far.

Awesome. So guys, if you know somebody in your network who's looking to sell their business, send them our way. We do provide a referral fee as well. So happy to compensate you guys for that time and effort. Cool. This was fun, Pierre. I think hopefully you guys enjoyed this. Yeah, yeah. I think it was good. We want to try something different this time. If you guys did like this, obviously share your feedback and we'll try to do this again every quarter at least and give you guys an update of what's going on, share with you guys what's— and if you have any questions you guys would like for us to answer on here, and we're an open book in general, whatever is not— we don't have hidden behind an NDA, we'll share with you guys, right?

Perfect. Yeah, no, that was fun. Let's try to make it a quarterly thing.

Sure. Okay, awesome. Thank you so much, Pierre, guys, and thanks again for everything. Cheers. Bye. Cheers. Thank you all for listening in to today's episode. Don't forget to join us for another episode where we interview top leaders and experts in the business and SaaS industry. If you enjoyed this episode, I ask that you please give us a 5-star review on iTunes. That would be really, really appreciated. Otherwise, if you have any feedback, suggestions, or improvements for this podcast, please feel free to send it directly to me on our website at horizoncapital.com, or you can just tweet me @akeeljabbar. Thanks again, and hope to see you guys on the next episode.