Iris Shoor: How to make smarter data-driven marketing analytic decisions for your SaaS #140

This episode is sponsored by the Financial Due Diligence Framework course. If you're doing any type of financial analysis and participate in M&A, strategy, or turnaround projects, you absolutely need to check out this course. By completing this comprehensive video course, you'll be strongly armed to analyze the P&L of any company and to be able to provide actionable, insightful reports. This course teaches you how to properly understand the methodology of how to conduct thorough financial analysis and what is important in financial due diligence. If you're looking for a career in transaction services in one of the Big 4, in a transaction services boutique, or to be a better private equity professional or M&A associate, you'll get a solid foundation to land your next job. And as a special offer, if you use the code SaaS District, you'll get $100 off the entire course made specifically for our listeners. So if you're interested, go check out horizoncapital.com/learn-due-diligence. Hello, hello everyone. This is your host, Akeel Jabbar, and welcome back to another episode of SaaS District. In today's episode, we'll be talking about how to make smarter data-driven marketing analytic decisions for your SaaS company. Today we have our guest Iris Schuur joining us. Iris is a serial entrepreneur currently running her third startup, Orabi.io, which is an all-in-one marketing analytics tool that empowers businesses of all sizes to make smarter and data-driven decisions. Iris is passionate about simple and powerful products, data-driven marketing, and leveling up creativity in the marketing process. So welcome, Iris. Super excited to have you on the SaaS District show today.

Thanks, Akeel. Great to be here.

So I want to get into the heart of today's episode, which is all about data-driven marketing, right? That's something that I think as a SaaS founder, you have to be familiar with. You have to be using this in your process, in your system, in your marketing funnel. In your words, how would you describe data-driven marketing, and what are the elements that really make it different and maybe more useful than maybe traditional marketing, which people are used to working with?

Yeah. So first of all, I'll say that I think that all marketers, they really want to be data-driven. So I think that all of us, really want to understand the impact of each activity that we do. We write a new blog post, we change the messaging on the website, we're less or more active on social. And the big difference is that they've seen that during the last couple of years, most of the transactions happen online. So I'm not speaking only about e-commerce, for example, but also about like SaaS companies and finance and so on, that until like a few years ago, the website was more about company and now we can really learn from what users do. So I think the difference is now it's possible. And today there is a huge challenge from like different reasons to really connect all the dots and to really understand if you, for example, like you write more content and you can understand if people read it or more, but you need to understand if it's converting, And how does it convert and how does it work with different channels? So I feel like one of the main challenges of all companies today is to really understand and attribute each channel, each marketing effort, and to understand where to allocate the budget.

So at the end of the day, I mean, you're looking at all this data, helps you, I guess, sort and understand your data better. And then from there you're able to fully understand what's really driving my business, what's really driving my growth, and then, okay, where should I be doubling down my efforts, my energy, my investment, and project my marketing budget for maybe the following year, right?

Exactly. So just to know what should be your next steps and where to invest your next dollar.

And in terms of people are using a lot of tools like marketing automation in terms of helping them streamline their process, make things simpler, easier, cheaper, and faster. How would you differentiate that in the entire process and where does it become useful when it comes to making those data-driven decisions?

So there's actually a lot of synergy between these tools because you're using marketing automation to get to more audiences, send more emails, target people better, and usually the measuring over there is pretty one-dimensional. And you need to understand how it's working with other channels and other types of attribution and so on. So the way I see it, and most companies do it, is that they have marketing automation and they need very good marketing analytics to complete it.

So it seems like more complementary, right, than kind of competing. You need both together.

Yeah, definitely.

And what about SaaS founders who maybe don't spend a lot of time on marketing, right? They rely on whether it's word of mouth, organic growth, or just really kind of more product-led growth, such as companies we've talked to in the past like Balsamiq. They barely invest any marketing towards their solution. It's just been kind of focused on the product, but they've had success. But many companies out there obviously will need a good marketing strategy. So for SaaS founders listening in, why would you say businesses, especially SaaS founders, really need deeper analytics in order to scale?

Okay, so I think like let's differentiate like 2 different processes that you want to understand. The first one is about getting customers to your website. So that's one thing, and there is paid acquisition, it's more like Facebook and Google Ads and so on. But let's say for example that you're investing a lot in building your community, being active on social, writing content and so on. And that's something that you also need to really understand well and to really understand what's converting. So sometimes you can see like lots of traction coming from certain community and lots of buzz around your product, but you learn that you hardly get like good conversions coming from there. So maybe you should invest less. The other part is more about the website experience. And that's something dramatic that they say that most companies don't invest enough in. So in many cases you invest a lot either with paid acquisition or with other marketing resources to get your brand out there, to get people to speak about it, then they come to the website and you might lose like 90, 95% of the people because they don't really understand what you're doing or the signup process was too long and so on. So the first thing is about understanding the channels and the second thing is about understanding the flow within the website, within the product to understand where you're losing customers and how to improve it.

So if I'm like most SaaS founders, I'm probably using a free tool such as Google Analytics, and I'm using what my attribution is based off there, or Facebook Ads Manager, and I can see the breakdown of where my source of leads are coming from or sales. What's the advantage of, say, paying for or buying a more advanced analytics tool, and where does it stand out?

So there are different types of advanced analytics tools. So there are some tools that are going to be more around like deeper insights and so on. The process we took with Oribe is pretty different. So when I started Oribe, I spoke with lots of companies, I analyzed all the main barriers, I really tried to understand how come everybody wants to be data-driven and it's still such a hard task to understand the very basic questions. And we decided to focus on a different angle, and that's the data collection. So what happens today in most cases is that you know how many people arrive from each channel, and you might know how many people signed up or purchased your product, and that's about it. Because usually in order to send this data to Google Analytics and all the other marketing automation and other tools, you need lots of developers, resources, and you need to map everything, and it takes lots of time, and most companies don't do it.

Right.

So what we do differently to Riby is to automate the data collection process and to send it to Riby and to all other tools. So you can also send it to the marketing automation tools. So instead of viewing just like 2 or 3 main events, you can really understand the entire flow. And then it's much easier to collect more data and to get more insights and to really understand what people are doing on your website.

Okay. So from my understanding, it's more of understanding the data, gathering data, and then being able to report it and break it out and make— so how's it different than some tools like Segment, or I think there's a couple of others like that where they're very focused on data. And if we're talking about tools, what would be some minimum tools that you recommend or suggest that maybe help marketers have a better understanding of the landscape and help them make better decisions around the entire attribution funnel?

Yeah, definitely. So I think in a way, the way we see Oribe is some kind of a version of like Segment, but more for people that are not technical or more of something that like the marketing team can operate themselves. Segment is an amazing tool and I think that it really helps companies, but still very technical. You need to use code.

Yes.

Orbi, it's completely codeless. The marketing team can use it themselves. They can create different events. They can send them over to to other tools or use it within Oribe. So you also have all the analysis and the dashboards and so on within Oribe. You don't need to actually send it to a different place. Remind me your second question again.

Yeah. So what are some maybe other tools that you would suggest for people to look at to kind of have a better picture of the entire landscape and making better decisions for the entire funnel? So there's one that's gathering data, one is then maybe understanding it, and then maybe there's some other stuff you recommend to look at the entire funnel. As a marketer?

Yeah. So I think probably like, so one aspect is definitely marketing analytics. So you can probably reach everything with Google Analytics. I think that it is a very sophisticated tool, but you need to know what you're doing and you need to invest a lot. And so the main reasons that we built an alternative to Google Analytics is because most companies don't know how to use it well enough. Or don't have enough resources. So on the analytics side, it's either Google Analytics or Ruby or other great tools. And I would also recommend to have some tool for session recording, such as FullStory or Hotjar and so on. I think it offers a different perspective. So one perspective is more about aggregated data, Understanding your funnel and so on. And another perspective is to really like see, like peek behind the shoulder of your users and to really understand where they're trying to click. It's always hard to watch. I always feel like every time I watch this like video recording, it feels like I'm watching a car accident and seeing your users trying to do something that you think is so obvious and they still fail. But you can learn a lot from it. So I see it's like different aspects of marketing analytics and customer experience.

Yeah, I love tools that, you know, where like there's heat maps and you're understanding user behavior. I think every company used to, you know, use that. I like VWO. Hotjar is another good one. And I completely agree with you, like Google Analytics is good, but there's just so much data there and it's not easy to make the best out of it and understand it. And like you said, to set it up properly. you need more complex developers and all that involved, right? So it's not for everyday user to go in and set it up properly and make decisions off of it, right? It's not that simple.

Yeah, definitely. So in many cases we meet people that tell us like, okay, so I know everything about Google Analytics and I develop everything myself and I know how to code and they know how to custom everything. Why do I need a Ribbit? And we said, okay, you don't need a Ribbit. In most cases we meet people that tell us that I use Google Analytics. I don't really know how to do with it. I can't really get actionable insights. I don't have access to my website. I don't know how to code. And then we know that we can help them. So I think for the majority of people, Google Analytics is some kind of a monster they're not sure how to deal with.

Yeah, that's right. And I liked AuraBee actually. I know you guys gave us complimentary access, so I appreciate that from you guys. It's super simple, right? Copy and paste the code onto your site into your header tag or your footer. And I think it's pretty simple from there. But let's say I have a team, whether it's a small team, a smart marketing team, or a big marketing team, who do you typically see as being the person to assign this to? And then how often should you say they should be spending on analytics from setting up to reporting and analyzing the data? What do you typically see there with people who are using your tool?

Yeah, so I guess the answer that most people probably expect is that you should have an analyst within the team and they should be in charge of all of it. And I agree, I do think that like one of the first hires should be an analyst and it will be a great hire that will return the cost and you'll be able to understand the budget better, but they will answer is that each marketer should understand their space and their effort. So I really think that like if you're in charge of email marketing or content marketing or paid acquisition, you should be in charge of analyzing it as well. I think that the days of having marketers, it's like the creative people that are not in charge of the results and they're just into finding the great the red header or this like creative ads are definitely over. We're not there anymore. And they say that once they measure everything, they can also get to questions that the analysts can't answer. So it's only about like understanding different buckets of content and to understand which types of subjects on the email really convert better, not just about like the open rate and so on. So I really think that you should be in charge of the creation of the content or each type of marketing effort, distribution, and measuring.

So the whole kind of funnel and understanding the entire thing. And where do you typically see that marketers are maybe failing at, A, properly measuring when they're coming and an entire marketing funnel, and you see that they should be paying more attention to or tracking better or being tracked better in their whole funnel?

Yeah. So I'll point at 2 main mistakes that I'm seeing and I can call them mistakes, but I think that I can mainly call them like optimization opportunities because these are places that you can easily leverage, you can easily change your results. So the first one is I see many companies that don't measure the entire funnel. So for example, and they're active on social and they're measuring how many likes they had or how many people joined their Instagram account or they're writing content and they're measuring how many people read my new post. And this is not the question that they should ask. The question that they should ask is what is their main goal? And in most cases, it's people that will subscribe and acquire the product and how everything relates to it. You can have this amazing blog post And you can have like tens of thousands of readers to this post, but it will hardly convert. And you can have another post that hardly no one reads, but most of them convert. So like one thing that I think that is very important to change the state of mind around is not about the initial part of like the funnel of how many people engage with my marketing materials. It's about the end. results and about the conversion. And there are huge gaps. There are some things that look very promising and the other way around.

Mm-hmm.

And then the second part is about optimizing the funnel. So I mentioned that you should measure the entire funnel. In many cases, you'll find out that you have this like great blog post and targeting the right audience, But you're failing at showing them the right conversion. People fail at understanding your form and so on. So I think there's lots of work of analyzing the funnels, mobile, desktop users coming from different channels to really understand how come, because in most cases you're bringing more or less the right people and still only like half percent or even less are going to convert. So to really understand where you lose most of them.

And so if I'm okay, I know I'm not tracking my data properly and I'm looking for options out there, right? So I'm looking at Google Analytics setup, I'm looking at Oribi, I'm looking at Segment, I'm looking at all these other tools out there, but I want more data, I want cleaner data, I want better data, and I need just kind of more visibility features, maybe even white labeling if I'm an agency. What would you recommend or maybe some approach for helping marketers and founders assess the different solutions out there and what is going to work for me, especially specifically for a SaaS founder?

Yeah. So just one clarification. Segment is a tool for sending data to other tools. It's not an analytics tool. So it's a great tool if you want to enrich every other tool. And I would say that it really depends on your dev resources. So if you know that you have lots of dev resources, you have time for it, you have lots of channels, maybe you should go for the high-end solutions like Adobe Marketing Cloud or Datorama. And in most cases, I would go with Oribe or or Google Analytics. You can also get to interesting results within HubSpot and so on if you customize it enough. But I do think it's very important to really, like, for each marketing effort in each marketing channel, to ask yourself, how do I measure it and what are the right metrics for this channel?

Got it. And kind of last question, kind of talking about this is about, you know, we talked about conversion rate optimization and understanding, you know, what's working, what doesn't work. And we talk about tools like Hotjar, VWO, understanding user behavior to kind of make different tests. In your blog, I saw, which is pretty good, you talk about another type of testing model, which is called AZ testing, right? And most people talk about, you say, talk about AZ testing and forgetting about AB, which is what most people are doing, right? Doing AB testing, you know, pick one variable, test against it, and then keep moving on forward. How do you kind of— can you explain that and how that applies for marketers?

Yeah, definitely. So I think that one of the challenges of small but also medium and sometimes even large startups is that most of the things that we learn are disciplines coming from large companies. So typical A/B testing is let's change this button from red to orange. And see the results, or let's change the caption on this button from like, try it now to create your free account and see how it works. But in most cases, you need tons and tons of traffic in order to see a difference because let's say for example that you have a signup button and you have, let's say that you have even like a few hundred visitors to your website every day. That's amazing. And you have like 40 people clicking on this button and 44 people clicking on this button, and usually it's not enough. And you also want to measure the entire funnel because sometimes you A/B test something and you have, okay, try for free, and everybody clicks on it, but then you find out that they don't end up paying. And the concept of A/B testing is instead of making like small tweaks, that are easier to make but very, very hard to measure because usually you don't have enough data, is to go with extremes. So if A/B test is pretty close, so let's say instead of trying like 2 buttons and one is red and one is orange, is to try like one version with a huge button with free and you're changing the messaging, everything is around free and about the pricing. And another website that doesn't speak about the pricing at all and just highlights the product. And then you're able to see more difference and you have enough numbers to measure and then you can start optimizing it. Okay, so you see that the version that is with the free works much better. So maybe you're going to start another test. So it's more about like starting with something very, very, something that is radically different And then start closing the gaps until you get to something that is more around A/B testing.

Interesting. I mean, what I've typically seen when doing VWO tests, it's more very iterative, right? You make one small change, you change your headline, you change one button, you change that call to action, you change one thing, and then you slowly iterate. But you're saying you go completely different, like change the call to action completely, change the pricing completely, change your copy completely, change the entire design, and then slowly kind of bridge the gap and iteratively come back to converge to a single point of what's working, right?

Yeah, I think you need hundreds or thousands of conversions in order to measure each test, and usually you don't want to run too many tests in parallel. And if you run very different tests, it's easier to see the gaps between the results.

Yeah, that makes sense.

Cool.

This has been good, Iris. I want to shift gears, moving towards more of the personal side, your background, how you got to where you are today in your story. Can you share your past background, your past ventures, including being a 2-time previous founder up until deciding to found AuraBee.io?

Yeah, definitely. So I don't have a typical story of an entrepreneur. I actually have pretty little technical background before I started this world. So I learned a bit and I've known this world a bit, but then I decided that I wanted pursue my childhood dream and to study architecture and that I don't want to do something creative. And when I was just about to graduate architecture school, I decided that this world is too, too slow for me. And I wasn't sure what to do with my life. And I had a chance to co-found a startup company. And so my first company was actually around the world I came from and about architecture engineering, and we developed this like, um, it's really unique technology of taking 2D and 3D modeling to the web and the mobile, um, on the early days of mobile apps. And, and it went very well. We were acquired by Autodesk, and, and the product became very popular. And my second company was very different. And I decided to leave the world of architecture and engineering mainly because it's really hard to build large companies over there. And so my second company was for developers and DevOps around the world of production and monitoring and debugging. And I've been there for the first 4 years. The company is still running, still doing well. And then a few years ago, I decided to start Weebly. And I was always very passionate about marketing. So it was very clear to me that I want to do something around this space. And I saw like a very interesting opportunity around all the world of data collection and analyzing data. I say that still today, a few years later, It's still a huge challenge for most companies, and there is much to do over there.

So just one point you mentioned. So you said you decided to leave focusing on a market which you're competent in, you understood, which is in the architect field. You had success in it, but you decided to switch gears and move to something completely different. Is that because you said you can't build it into a big company? Is that because of the size of the market, the total addressable market, or what was the reason you you kind of made that switch?

Yeah, so it's mainly the size of, uh, it's the size of the market and the audience. Even though you can say like it's everything around building real buildings, there is like tons of money over there, but there, there's hardly any money with, uh, um, with the software for, uh, for it. So, um, so that was the main reason. And there's also like only one large player, which is Autodesk. So it's really hard to build large companies. I think it's possible, but it's more challenging.

Yeah, I guess when you're trying to build something for a smaller ocean or pool or amount of people out there, you've got to have a lot of money behind it and put a lot of budget around product and developing something to compete with the big guys. So, yeah, makes sense. So I guess that's a lesson for people out there. If you're going to tackle a market, go after something that's big enough that you have a chance, right?

You know, I think marketing is a very big thing. Yeah, I have to say that I always tell entrepreneurs that just start and they ask for my advice that I think it's better to go after a good market than after a market that might be more interesting because from my experience, I think that my passion is when I build a company and even if we're doing something pretty boring, becomes super exciting because of the challenge of building a company and the team and getting into market. So I can see how you're doing like production monitoring or an application for music, and you can still be as passionate for both of them. So it might be easier to pick a better market.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. I think it's a pretty big factor and adds to your overall luck and your trajectory just by picking the right market. that you're on. And speaking of Orbi, where are you guys in terms of size today? And have you guys raised any outside capital? Are you guys completely bootstrapped?

No, definitely. We raised— so we raised $27 million to date, and the main investor is Sequoia Capital. And we're 55 people today. And a few thousand customers.

So you raised $27 million. Is that over? How many rounds was that? What round are you guys at?

3 rounds. So right now, the last round was the B round.

B round. Awesome. So you've been part of a founding team, CEO, and kind of founder for several companies now. Must be obviously quite demanding for your time. How do you measure your own leadership success, you know, within your own team today?

That's a good question. So, I have to say that something that, like, really shifted for me is that I used to do, like, one thing that I'm a big believer that a founder should know everything. They shouldn't be, like, the best at everything. But I think, like, it was very important for me to be able to understand, well, the technology and the sales flow and so on. But I found myself over the years giving more independence to my team. And so it's really important for me to understand everything on the one hand, but to know that everything can run without me, at least for like a while.

Yeah.

So I think the way I work today is mostly to focus on where I'm needed the most. And so to actually like spot, like right now we have an issue with marketing budgets, with the churn, with hiring, so on, and to be pretty much laser-focused on this part and to have all the other parts rolling on without my involvement.

So where would you say you spend most of your time these days? Where's your attention going and getting most of your effort?

So right now we're building Weebly more toward partnerships and larger deals. So like one aspect that we spoke about is integrate— is analytics, but another important part is how to export the data that we collect to Weebly to other tools, to marketing automation tools, to BI tools, and so on. And that's a new strategy, and that's something that we need to figure out how we're building the marketing around. And who are we partnering with first? So most of my time right now is around this strategy.

Got it. Looking back now, so you've had 2 successful companies back, one that you've exited, now onto your third. Obviously a lot of wisdom, a lot of advice, a lot of good experience. What's one piece of advice you wish you had known and maybe would tell your 25-year-old self today?

Um, I think it's probably like the main thing is, uh, is focus. And I usually have like tons of energy, and I remember that like when I, when I was younger, every week I had like dozens of different ideas, and most of them were interesting and good. Um, but they say that it's, it's not healthy for a company. I see that, uh, Even if the entrepreneur can juggle lots of balls at the same time, most people either can't or it's not right for them. So I think it's really important to understand what you're doing, not to open too many fronts at once. Something that I try to remind myself all the time, every time that I have a great idea that I need to pass, is that most or all successful companies did like one thing really well before they grew. So, well, like search for Google, basic social network for Facebook, and so on. They didn't succeed because they had like amazing reports or yet another feature or so on. So it's more about doing one thing right. And one thing that we're really trying to do at Reebit is to keep improving and polishing the existing features rather than running to develop more features. And it's a huge challenge because we have tons of requests that you said, oh, this is cool and so many people can use it and it's going to take us only 2 weeks to develop. But then you're stuck with dozens of features that you need to maintain and you need to explain people about. So I think it's about, like, the main advice is about focus and try to narrow things down.

That's very good advice, right? A lot of people say it's easier, they get so focused on features, right? It's like adding more and more and more, and they think that's going to add more value to your customer just because they're asking for it. But generally it's like the one or two things they do really well is what's going to keep them. And then you can slowly— it's very hard. You have to have that discipline to be able to say no before, because it's exciting, right, to add more, to be Fresh and exciting. If everybody wants to go for an exciting story.

It's so tempting and there are so many different reasons to like, people say like, okay, but I need to collaborate with someone else on it. I need to export it to X. And so there's always a reason, but I think that like the main reason that companies grow is because they're doing something amazingly well, not about having like lots of mediocre features.

And speaking about attribution and marketing channels, could you share a little what's worked best for you guys to date in terms of marketing and really driven the growth for you guys?

Yeah. So while my roots in marketing were more around content marketing, with Reebib, we changed the strategy more toward paid acquisition. Mainly Facebook and YouTube. It's hard and I think like today's costs are really increasing from one year to the other.

Yeah.

But this is more or less the only channel that you can really control. So with other channels, it's very hard to say, okay, so I just raised like another round and I want to double the number of leads I have in like 2 months. It's usually impossible if you have more of like a content strategy, social strategy, and so on. So I do think it's very important to develop brand awareness and communities are very important. But I had to pick one, if we spoke before about focus, so I had to pick one thing that we're going to do really well. And I decided to focus on acquisition mainly because it's the easiest channel to scale.

Makes sense. So YouTube ads, you're actually seeing pretty good success on? Compared to Facebook or Google Ads. Interesting.

Yeah, and YouTube and Facebook. I would also mention that it's interesting that it works very well for B2B, even to get to large B2B organizations. So, and I think it's like one interesting trend that is very obvious, but still not enough companies adopt, is to use B2C traditional channels for B2B because people are out there and they're watching YouTube, they're active on social, and you can reach every like SVP on every large company with this method as well.

Yeah, that's a good point. But what would you say are some of the maybe biggest challenges you guys are currently facing in order to continue to grow? Meaning like what's keeping you up at night these days and, you know, Stressing you out?

Yeah. So I think one challenge is what I just mentioned about focus. So there are so many different opportunities. As I mentioned, there's so much to do around the world of analytics. And so to really understand how to pick them, and it's really hard to measure it. So unlike marketing that usually you can try something out and then 2 weeks later understand how it's how it's going with product decisions. It takes like 6 months, 12 months to see the impact. So that's one thing. I think that another issue is all of the iOS 14 changes, the world of cookies and attribution. It actually also helps us because we're able to collect more data And more data within each session. But there are lots of questions about like where the world is heading. Do people are still going to measure exactly the right, the accurate numbers, or it's going to be more around trends? And another issue is around the acquisition. So I think like every year we see the acquisition costs rising, but we also seeing like more competition on every other marketing channel. So to try to overcome these challenges and to think about the next creative angle and the next creative idea to overcome the challenges over there.

Of course. Yeah. And I guess that's why you guys are, I know obviously working with us, sponsored ads is another channel, right? I think that's also overlooked that people don't look at, but it's very targeted, highly engaged. I like that. That channel as well. You know, so you've had, you know, one exit, you know, founder, you know, or being involved, you know, 3 startups now, raised $27 million. What does success mean to you today? How do you measure your own success, whether that's, you know, personally, business, financially, life? You know, there's no right answer. How do you measure it today?

Yeah, so I always find it intriguing that many entrepreneurs think that like the amount of money they raised is Is the way to measure your success. So it's also interesting because this is how the press is like. So company number— company X just raised $150 million. And then, and I was thinking like how it would look on other worlds of like, let's say real estate, like this company managed to take a loan of like $200 million too. So, and I don't see how much money I raised as As a key to success, I think that's something that was always very close to my heart. And that's also the reason that I love marketing is how people are impacted with what we do. So I measure my success about how people are using my product. And it's also hard because there's always people that don't understand the products. They're also So always like other alternatives, but I think that the places that I'm most excited about is seeing people that really manage to get value from what we do. They manage to cut marketing costs. And so it's really about value. I think that today companies speak a lot about how much money they raise, about the SaaS metrics and so on. I think it's harder to— you can evaluate it, you can measure it, it's harder, but it's about the value you give to customers. And if we're speaking about people, it's also about the employees. So something that's very important for me is the retention rate of employees, building a good company, and building a place people love coming to. I love working at.

Nice, nice. I love it. So this has been a really good interview, Iris. I love you. I appreciate you sharing everything you've shared with our audience today. If founders or marketers listening in, they want to get in touch with you, learn more about you, or maybe trying out orbee.io for their own SaaS product, what's the best way to get in touch?

So probably Facebook or LinkedIn. It's Iris Shoor, S-H-O-O-R. Or use the review or read my blog.

Okay, awesome. We'll add all those links in our show notes for people to check out and say hi to Ira. So thank you so much again for being on SAS District show today. I appreciate it.

Okay, thank you.

Cheers. Thank you all for listening in to this episode and joining SAS District today. Don't forget to leave a review and subscribe for future episodes where we interview top leaders in the SaaS industry. If you're a SaaS company looking to grow and unlock the true value of your business, get in touch with us at horizoncapital.com, and myself or one of our consultants will provide a free assessment to help you get there and hit your goals. If you have any feedback or suggestions for this podcast, please DM us on Instagram or LinkedIn @HorizonCapital and help us improve our content for you all. Thanks again. And hope to see you on the next one.

Thank you.