Melissa Kwan: How to Launch Your Startup Business with Limited Resources #207

Hello, hello everyone. This is your host, Akeel Jabbar, and welcome back to another episode of SaaS District. In today's episode, we'll be talking about how to launch your startup business with limited resources. Today we have our guest Melissa Kwan joining us. Melissa is the co-founder and CEO of eWebinar, a revolutionary SaaS company that helps people automate repetitive webinars and achieve a better work-life balance. With over 12 years of experience in startups and 3 successful companies built without VC backing, Melissa is a revenue-driven founder specializing in sales and business development, which we'll talk about today. So welcome, Melissa. Super excited to have you on the show today.

Thanks for having me, Akeel.

So let's start off with that, right? Like, let's just get to the point where, you know, founders are starting off, they have so many options to decide where to spend their marketing, how to invest their budget or whatever they do have with very limited budget that they do have, right? There's so many options from TikTok to starting a podcast to doing webinars. As a SaaS founder, how do you or how did you think about prioritizing your sales efforts You know, being a bootstrapped company?

Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, I think being a bootstrapped company, I mean, my background has always been in sales, so I've always been a revenue-driven founder. I also, when I started my career, didn't realize there was such thing as VC funding and being able to build a company on other people's money. So, you know, always really focused on profit and customer funding in order to fund the team and myself and keep the company going. But I think as a bootstrap founder, The only thing that I think about is, if I spend this dollar, what kind of return is it going to give me, right? Like, I think there's only 2 ways to get to profit, which is increase revenue and lower costs. So every dollar we spend has to be used towards either gaining a customer or retaining a customer. It's one of the 2.

Mm-hmm.

And I don't believe in working more. I think there's a lot of, you know, kind of hustle culture around needing to work more. But I do believe that we need to work more creatively. And I think as a bootstrap founder with very little resources, you need to think about as many ways to work, you know, create as creatively as possible. So how do you lower your workload? How do you scale yourself? How do you lower customer interactions? How do you put as much information out there so that when somebody comes to you, they are kind of half sold and like halfway there? So these are just like some of the things that I think about is like, where can I have the highest return of my dollar and not necessarily how can I spend the least, right? I don't think that's a good great way of thinking about a business, because I do think that sometimes you do need to spend money where you need to get that return, but it's always looking for that highest return per dollar.

Yeah, I think that's the difference in the mentality, right? Versus when you're bootstrapping versus raising VC capitals, you have to think twice and try and find that best channel that does give you the highest return. Versus I think with VCs, you can go and test 5 or 10 different strategies, and you know that maybe 7 of them or 8 of them will fail, and it's okay. And the 2 or 3 work out, right? So it just gives you more to play with, I think. Would you agree?

Yeah, I mean, I think the goal is a little different when you have a VC-backed company, right? Like, your goal is probably to raise the next round, and you need to get certain metrics. I mean, you would probably know better than me, so you can correct me if I'm wrong as well. But if your goal is for growth, um, and to show growth and to show revenue growth and to chase the next round, then you're not looking at, you know, profitability, right? So, you're spending money to, to kind of buy that growth for that next, um, you know, for, you know, for, for that next raise, um, versus as, you know, a, I guess, a bootstrap founder is, you're like, you're literally just looking at like, when am I going to break even and what is that zero cash date?

Exactly. And, you know, with so many, you know, one option that people generally look at when they're looking to invest their capital, they're probably gonna look at, you know, paid marketing as an area they wanna invest in. But before kind of allocating and, you know, spending money, we wanna look at what are some maybe free marketing channels that work and maybe we can leverage as SaaS founders and are often overlooked. Is there any that you can share that you've liked and seen that worked well?

Yeah, I mean, I think if paid marketing works, like if it's a channel that works, that would be amazing, right? But I think paid is like getting harder and harder, even for people who have money, right? Because we're just getting so distracted. And there's just so many people, so many different channels that are out there that you can dump money into. And a lot of people that are willing to spend that money aren't looking for immediate return. Unfortunately, as a bootstrap company, the amount of money that you can spend on paid is not even meaningful enough to show any sort of return. Like any—

Right.

Like, it doesn't move the needle at all. And the thing is, we've tried it. Right? Like the most that we can throw money in is like $1,000 to $2,000 a month, right? Like someone that does ad buying would just kind of like, like, like, would just kind of laugh at that amount, right? Like it's not even enough to like test the title, for example. So I would say like, I mean, luckily I've had, you know, 2 previous startups before this. So I've built up over time clients that I've worked with in the past, right? Like vendor partners that I've worked with in the past. So I would say like, When we talk about zero-dollar marketing, it's also, you know, sales, 'cause I guess I've been lucky that that's my background. But some of the ways that I've been able to get this off the ground is like literally just make a list of people, like right before the company launched, like the product was ready to bring on its first customer.

Yep.

I just made a list on Google Sheet of every single person that I know, that I've met, like went through my phone, went through my own emails, every person, every company, their email, their phone, um, if I have it. And I just went down the list to contact them to let them know what I'm doing next. So, I guess it's like part marketing, part sales, but it's, it's really founder-led sales. And that's just kind of how the way it has to go in the first place. And then when people are excited about the idea, then I invite them to, um, you know, a next call, which is usually to onboard onto the product. But because we don't have time for any beta or alpha. They know when they're onboarding the product, there is a trial end date. So, everybody that, you know, tries the product, they know they're coming on to pay. They're not testing this for me for fun.

Hmm.

So, that was kind of the way that I approached it, because I, again, like, don't have a choice, don't have a lot of capital behind me. Like, myself and my co-founder had to invest, you know, our capital and our time. So, the first person that comes on board knows that they're paying, how much they're paying, and when that trial end date is. And then, I think the best people to, refer you to new customers are the people who are already supporting you. So, hopefully, the people that are supporting you in the beginning are, you know, friends or friends of friends of yours. So, anyone who is excited about the product and willing to try it, I always ask them for referrals.

Okay.

And I don't think that this is something people do enough, but it's free, right?

Exactly.

So, yeah, 1 lead can turn into 1 to 3. Like, I don't really ask for one. I say like, hey, are there, you know, 3 companies or 3 people you have in mind that you think I can get in touch with that could use this? If they say yes, I write it down, and then I push even further and say, oh, you know, would you mind putting me in touch with them? I'll, you know, write you an affordable email or something like that.

Right.

And of course, like, you know, things that other people try that we've tried as well that are free are like Product Hunt, getting listed on as many directories as possible.

Right?

Because you're a new company and what you want is for people to think that you have existed or you're legitimate when they Google like eWebinar or whatnot. You don't want to be fresh, right? So I think we made, probably made a list of like over 100 different directories online that we just went out to, to get listed in. And they can be like software review sites or, you know, something like that. It doesn't matter what the domain rating is. It doesn't matter where they are. Like, we just want to get listed.

Right.

Right, because we want to show up. Um, and then, you know, you, you basically go down your Rolodex and you see like which one of your friends have a blog or is a journalist or knows a journalist. Um, you know, the big, the big blogs and the big, you know, big, um, media companies are just not going to write about you, right? Like they need you to have some sort of funding or, you know, some, some sort of PR company go through them. But there are a lot of smaller blogs, right? It could be you know, industry-focused, role-focused, um, people that you might have worked with in the past that are willing to write something about, you know, you launching your company. It could be a, you know, it could be a local kind of tech blog. It really, in the beginning, it just doesn't matter how small it is. Um, but these are, you know, some of the ways to kind of like get your name out there. And then once you get the ball rolling, um, there are, you know, other people that start coming to you and things like that.

So when you drafted that first list you mentioned, so these are people you know, and you reached out to them and said, hey, this is what I'm working on. What exactly are you telling them? Like, this is what I'm working on, just a next, this is my next project. And I'm looking, are you specifically asking them, say, I'm looking for trial users, or are you just throwing it out there and seeing how, what the interest looks like?

Yeah, so I have never believed in like testers. So, I never approach it from that angle. I know it's pretty common, but having spent, like, over 10 years in selling enterprise, it's just so hard to get a free user, like a beta user, to pay, right? Like, when people think that they're beta, they're approaching it with a critical eye. And then, it's really hard to get them out of that mindset of, well, I'm just testing this new thing, right?

Mm-hmm.

So, I approach it from— and, and because we did that, we probably took about 6 months longer to build the product, because I wanted my MVP not to be an MVP. I wanted my MVP to be the minimal viable product somebody would pay for. And that's a very different concept, right? Like, what is that product that people are willing to take out their credit card for? So when I approached people, it wasn't— of course it wasn't just anybody, right? Like, the problem that eWebinar's solving, like turning videos into webinars and helping people do repetitive demos and onboarding and training, like, that's a, that's a problem that I know intimately well because I lived this problem for 5 years in my previous startup. So, the people that I got in touch with, like the first, at least 150 people that I got in touch with, they are people and companies that I know have the same problem.

Hmm.

So, their role is probably a founder of a, you know, of a small, medium-sized company, or they are customer success teams, or trainers of medium and large companies. So, I know that they're doing these things. So, what I did was I just reached out to them and said, hey, this is my next project, this is what I'm doing, spent a year and a half building this, this is, you know, this is how I came of the problem. Is this something that you guys experience in your company? And, you know, they'll either say yes or no, but I think I probably got like a 90% yes, because I just, I knew, like, I just knew that problem so well.

Wow.

And then once they say yes, I would be like, hey, would you be interested to be one of our first customers? If you are, then we're giving our first batch of customers a 60-day free trial instead of 14. And then you can test it out as much as you want. And if you want to keep the subscription, we're going to start charging on this date and this is how much it's going to be.

Interesting. And from that, you know, 150, how many of those actually became, you know, trial users? And then my question to that is, adding to that is, you know, if there's folks who don't have an existing list, we're talking about no budget, you know, zero money to spend on sales and marketing. But the strategy probably still works if you don't have that list. Would you recommend maybe building one, a little colder list, but still fits that? I mean, in your case, you had that relationship, but would you think it would also work, you know, in that case, if you don't have an existing relationship and network?

Yeah. I mean, everybody starts somewhere, right? The reason, though, where did this list come from? It came from my last startup. My last startup was completely built off cold calling and cold emails. Like, you have to start somewhere. But I think it doesn't have to be people that you are actually selling to, right? The first list could be your first 10 friends, or your 10 friends that you, that you've met at another tech startup, or, you know, your old professor, like, whoever you're selling to, like, that, that audience. Like, I'm sure you know some people that are out there. And there are also, like, thriving communities, like, you know, you know, Nathan Latka's founder-led community on Slack. Or like the customer success group on Slack, like, or the product-led group on Slack. There are so many people out there, whether they're founders or executives of like different sizes of startups, that are super eager and willing to help.

Right.

So, I would encourage like anyone who doesn't think they have a community already to go out to those communities, like whether it's on Slack or Facebook or LinkedIn, and just start like, like putting some fishing lines out there and ask for help and say, hey, I'm looking for feedback. Never hang up the phone before you ask for some referrals. And eventually, like, I think you build your list that way. But, you know, of course, through these calls, you have to come up with a script that, you know, eventually helps you close. If not the next sale, then first the next referral.

Awesome. And let's talk a little bit more about— so we're kind of talking about social selling, the topic of social selling. When you— can you share some of the— what that means exactly? What is it? Why is it important when it comes to, you know, building trust, validating your product in the market, and maybe how we can do that with our own companies?

Yeah, I mean, social selling is something that kind of like hit me in the face a year after I launched the company. Like, I just didn't know it was a thing. Having spent my previous 2 startups and then my career before that in like enterprise sales, which is really sold through sales-led and cold calling and going to conferences and doing trade shows, Like, I had no idea that there was a product-led, customer-led, or like social selling world out there for the price point of product that I'm in today. So that was kind of a shock to me because the methods that I'm talking about, right, going to your list, asking for referrals, reaching out through, you know, Zoom or emails, like, you will exhaust that.

Yeah.

Especially if you're selling a product that's under a certain price point. Like, our product starts at $100. So if you are—

A month.

Yeah, a month. So if you're selling enterprise and each one of your deals is, you know, $10K to $100K, like, you can keep doing that. And, you know, people, people will pick up the call because that's how people buy. But if you're selling like a $50 product or $100 product, like, yes, you do what I just said to get this off the ground, but ultimately that's just not how people buy $100 products. So People that aren't like warm-ish leads are just not going to respond to that type of sales. So, when I exhausted my network, which is probably like 9 to 12 months after the product launch, I started looking at how other companies in my price point were selling.

Mm-hmm.

And then talking to other founders that I found through these Slack groups to ask them what they were doing. And then I realized that people were, you know, building communities on LinkedIn, on Twitter, on Facebook, like wherever their prospects or their audience, you know, lives. And that's kind of when I learned that social selling is now a thing. And it's in, you know, I write on LinkedIn 4 or 5 times a week just on my experience bootstrapping 3 startups. And I only did that about a year ago. But the— you asked about importance is—

Mm-hmm.

I think for the first time, People care more, like, at least just as much, but I think they care more about the people behind the product than the product itself, if that makes sense. It's like, I'm not buying this, like, Louis Vuitton wallet anymore. Yeah, it's like I'm buying the mission behind this. Like, where's this leather from? Who are the founders? Where is it made? And like, what is the story? Right? And we're doing that with Yeah, we're doing that with like consumer products and with restaurants and food and farm-to-table. And now I'm kind of seeing that trend with software and like just, just courses and media. It's like, who's behind it? Let me read about that person. And all that information is accessible. So why social selling is important is you as a founder, and if your company's bigger, maybe it's an executive, when people look up the product, they're not— looking up the product itself. They're looking up the mission behind the company and where the founders are coming from and what have they written online. Do I trust this person? Do I feel like I have a relationship with this person through what they have put out there? And I'm seeing this becoming a bigger trend. Um, and that's why, like, I, I feel like a lot of founders are, are doing what we're doing, like just podcasting, having conversations, um, building credibility and trust through all these multiple different channels.

Right. So it's essentially like influencer marketing now, rather than people selling their physical product and promoting what they have or what they believe in. People are now influenced and buying products or services or software, which could be a decision that lasts for years with your company based on some kind of validation from the market.

It almost feels like there's like an added accountability if you know who's on the other side. Like, I feel that way, right? Right now I'm looking for onboarding software. There's probably 20, right? A minimum of 20 when I look for onboarding software on Google. But there's only 1 or 2 that I constantly see on LinkedIn, like whether they're founders posting something or whether their, you know, head of marketing is posting something. And I've interacted with them, you know, just through texts. And I like their content. I'm on their newsletter. And I actually, for some reason, feel like I know them. And I feel like if there's something that goes wrong with the software, that I can reach out to them to fix it. So, like, and I don't know if that's true, but it's just a feeling that I have from, you know, a few interactions that I have. So I can only equate that to my customers and the prospects that are out there that are looking for something that we do.

That makes perfect sense. I mean, if I'm looking at 2 products that are very similar, like, let's call it a webinar product, if I don't I mean, the functionality is probably very similar. Pricing is plus or minus very similar. And then if all things are fairly equal and the only difference is I know the founder behind this product, yeah, I'm definitely most likely to go. That'll be probably a bigger decision to make a decision around it if everything else was equal.

Yeah.

And so you mentioned going into communities as a founder such as like Nathan Latka's group and a few others. But that's for yourself as a founder to get feedback for your product. And then the other side is understanding where your customers are hanging out, right? What are some ways to find out where to find them to get insights on their behaviors, their preference needs, ask them some questions, get insights? Where should I be looking to find those people or groups?

Yeah, so one of the most valuable exercises that I did about, I would say, 5, 6 months into product launch was reach out to like our 10 most active, you know, biggest customers and ask them for like a 1-hour interview.

Mm-hmm.

And in that, the, the purpose of that interview was to find out, you know, are we solving their problem? How are we solving it? How do they describe the problem that we're solving? Like, we're just extracting marketing language from them so that we could rewrite our website.

Mm-hmm.

Um, 'cause we wanted to refresh our website with the language that we guessed to, you know, to update, to update it with the language that our, that our customers are using. And I have like a 48-question questionnaire that I use for every single customer. But the last set of questions is actually like, where do you hang out? So, I think the best way to find out is you just find your 10 best customers, the people that care about you the most, the people that spend the most money with you, and you just ask them, hey, like, what are some, you know, podcasts that you listen to? What are some blogs that you follow? What are some forums that you're a part of? How do you learn about you know, things in your space? What are some Slack groups that you join? If you have a question, who do you ask? Right? Like these kind of questions. And then you basically just find out like where they hang out, and then you go and kind of like join all those things. But that's, you know, I think that's the easiest way because then you don't have to guess.

Would you say you see any overlap among where people hang out from those top 10 people?

Yeah, I mean, if you're serving, I think a certain industry or a certain role, like, there aren't that many things out there, especially, like, that are good, right? Like, there's a lot of Slack communities, for example, a lot of forums, but there's not a lot that are, like, active.

Yeah.

And how you define active is, like, you put a question out there, you get a response in 10 minutes. Like, there's probably just a handful of those, right? And then, so, they kind of start to overlap. But, you know, as a vendor, Like, if anyone's listening to this and they're a software company, like, as a vendor, it's very unlikely that you can go into those communities and start selling yourself, because a lot of those communities are actually like, quote unquote, vendor-free, even though everybody, everybody's like indirectly selling. But those communities is where you can get like, you know, lists of companies or, you know, problems that your customers are trying to solve, and that you could like use some of those things in your marketing, and then some of the content that you create as well.

And when it comes to— so we're talking about joining communities, finding communities for yourself, finding communities for your customers. Then the other side is also building and creating your own audience and community in order to promote your SaaS, to talk with your customers, to see that you're there and that you have some kind of engagement with them. Can you talk about what is the importance of that and how we can create your own audience or community?

Yeah, I mean, I think the importance of all that is like You wanna exist, right? I would say, like, that's really the most important thing is somebody Googles you, you wanna exist.

Yeah.

It's like a restaurant. I wanna look at this restaurant, and I'm gonna— what am I gonna do? I'm gonna go to Yelp or Google Maps, and I'm gonna click on the reviews, and I'm gonna read what people say about you.

Exactly.

And I think that's very similar nowadays to software or the founders behind it, right? Like, if I'm looking at the software, I'm looking at this person, I'm gonna type in Google and see what comes up. I'm gonna go to your LinkedIn profile, I'm gonna Go to your Twitter profile. I'm going to look up your YouTube channel and see if you put up any recent content. I'm going to go to my favorite podcast app and then see if you exist and see what you sound like. This is just what people do. They're like— everyone's like Sherlock Holmes.

Yeah.

So I think the importance of constantly generating content for your audience is you're constantly building credibility with the people that You want to win over and impress. And I think the way that you do that is consistency. Right? I think it's easy to do like one big push, right? Because you're like, I just, you know, I just launched this thing, I want to, I want to make some revenue. And I'm gonna go on this blitz. But it's like going to the gym, right? Like you sign up on New Year's, you go for a month, and then you don't. It's so easy to not go anymore.

Right.

But the most, you know, the most important thing is it's better instead of doing it like 30 times a month and never doing it, it's better to do it like 3 times a week for the rest of the year.

Yeah.

Because then people are seeing you consistently. And content does age. The content that ages doesn't show up on first page anymore. Yeah, right. If your podcast doesn't, doesn't publish in the next week and somebody looks up your podcast, it's not going to appear on the first page.

Mm-hmm.

So, I think that's the importance of consistency is like, no, like letting people know that you're active. But I think a byproduct of always generating, like creating new content in different channels is, as a founder, it just keeps you sharp. Like, it keeps your brain moving. Momentum is super important. And I think those are, that's the one thing that I didn't realize would happen is like writing on LinkedIn once a day made me think about different Things in my business that I never thought about before, because people are also interacting with you and giving you ideas. And once you're out there a lot, then people start introducing you to other people that are going to help you in your business, right? So it's almost like you never really know what's behind that other door. But I would say, like, you know, the best way to do it is just to, number one, is to start. I know everybody says that, but keep doing it at a pace where you can keep up with. Because you'd rather do that than just burn out. And then if you start slow, at least you can add to it later. But if you try to do everything at once, you're just not going to do it after a couple of months.

Right. It's like the gym. The results are a big part of that as well, right? You can go 30 days in a row and look at your body and see what happens versus just be consistent. And then one year down the line and you look at yourself and you're like, whoa, there's results. What happened?

Yeah, it's like building that habit, right? Instead of just going to your CRM and saying, I'm going to follow up with Akeel today, Put something in your CRM that says, you know, on Monday I'm going to write all my posts for, you know, LinkedIn, um, you know, at 3. On Tuesday I'm gonna, you know, do some research and ideate. Like, every day you do one small task and all of that will eventually compound.

Do you feel there's a— I mean, there's one thing about writing content that I find, and but I'm curious how you deal with it, is, you know, you wake up, you know, I have to write on LinkedIn, and now you're Because you told yourself, I have to write daily, and maybe you don't have anything interesting to talk about, then you're kind of forcing to find content? Or is it just like what you feel like talking about? Or do you just have that system where you have a lot of ideas and you just, you know, you always have so much to say?

That's a super good question. So I didn't come up with this system myself, right? Like, once I realized that there was such a thing as social selling, I started following this guy. I don't know if you know his name, Justin Welsh.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. And he's like, he's a solopreneur. He's kind of cracked the LinkedIn system. There's a way to do it. There's a method to do it. And he's a big systems guy. So I took his course. It was like, you know, it's pretty easy. It's, you know, there's work involved, but it's pretty short. And his whole thing is like, find the one thing that you're an expert in and just write about that. Like, I don't wake up and I say like, okay, today, what am I going to write about? You know, like, that's going to be really difficult. But I realized that the thing that defines me is that I'm a 3x bootstrap entrepreneur. Like, I've done it for, you know, 12, 13 years. I have a lot of knowledge around bootstrapping and doing things with really limited resources. I built a company that allows people to scale themselves and scale their team. So, that's all I write about. Every single idea, every single post I write out there is about my experience bootstrapping and why I think bootstrapping is better than raising venture capital. And basically, I write once a week on Monday. On Monday, that is all I do. And I write posts for this week and usually like Monday, Tuesday next week. So I'm not like in a rush next Monday. But I keep a Google Sheet. I'm, I'm actually really hyper-organized, so that helps. But I keep a Google Sheet that's just like date, content, and that's it. And when I have ideas come to me, And it, it could be when I'm out for a drink with my friends, or I'm walking down the street. I will write that idea in that sheet. So I always have, you know, in the future, at least 30 different ideas. And when it comes Monday, I turn that idea into a post. And then I also log, like, on, on Shield app, like, you can see your LinkedIn, um, stats.

Yeah.

I save all the most popular ones. And then I look at, you know, what the theme— like what the theme is for a particular post, for example. And then I might rewrite it, you know, if I run out of content or I might, I might use the same post. I think I probably use like 10 of the same posts in the same year. I try not to, but sometimes I'll make it longer or make it shorter, but I just see like what people respond to the most in the past and then I'll usually write topics around that.

Yeah, it's actually a really good system and framework. We've had Justin on the podcast as well. I haven't checked out his course, but I think That's great advice. Just focus on one thing. I think that makes it so much easier. So thanks for sharing that. Appreciate that. Cool. Melissa, this has been great. We're going to move to the second part of the interview though, if you're ready, the rapid-fire questions.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, ready to do it? All right. Melissa, what's one activity you enjoy outside of work that gets you into flow state?

I love watching TV. Okay.

That's reasonable.

It's kind of contrary to, like, yeah, it's kind of like a thing that a lot of founders don't do because they don't have a lot of time. But it's the thing that I have to do every night when my day ends. That is what I do for at least 1 or 2 hours.

Nice. It works. Uh, what's one piece of advice you wish you had known, and if you can go back, you would tell your younger self? Let's say 20 or 25-year-old self. I don't know how old you are, but let's, let's use that range.

Yeah, I would say you don't have to do something because you have experience in it. Go and do something that you love and gives you energy. Um, had I known that, I wouldn't have spent 10 years doing something I was good at, um, I would have just looked for something that I actually loved and then found the skills to, to build on that later.

Interesting. I think that talks about the ikigaki. Was it ikigai?

Yeah, I mean, it's like, it's like somebody going to, you know, law school and chose it when they were 19, and then all of a sudden they're a lawyer, but they didn't really want to be a lawyer, but they were trained in a lawyer, and then all of a sudden they hate being a lawyer, and then they're 40 and they're stuck in it, right? I think we all kind of have a little bit of that because we think, oh, that's what I went to school for. This is my first job. This is my second job. I have to build a company in this thing. But you actually don't. Like, you always have a choice. And it's easier to acquire the skills to build on what you love than, I guess, find something you're trained at and then try to love it after.

Interesting. And then from there, I guess there's also part of like, you know, what you're good at and what you get paid for. And then from there, you hope that you eventually get paid for it because you get good enough at it, right?

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah. What are some of the biggest challenges you're currently facing in order to continue to grow eWebinar? Meaning, what keeps you up at night these days?

Well, as a bootstrap founder, it's definitely revenue and being able to hire good people and retain them at You know, at reasonable rates now that, like, we only outsource. So, you know, that opens up, you know, our— that opens up, like, you know, the world kind of internationally. But it's still, as nowadays everybody's outsourcing, it's getting harder and harder to not just find talent, but also retain them because there's so many choices.

Mm-hmm.

But that is, that is the thing that keeps me up at night because it's not something that we can throw money at. And it's something that other people are throwing money at, so we're competing with that quite a bit.

Who or what are some of the best 3, 3 best resources? It can be books, mentors, or people you follow in the space who you'd say have been most instrumental to your success over these last few years.

Yeah, I would say there are 2 books that have been my greatest influence. One is The Alchemist. Have you heard of it?

I have.

Yeah, it's a great book.

Yeah. So it's, it's not like a business book, but it's, it's, you know, it's about a boy that goes and searches for his dreams. And, you know, I think that's been a huge influence. It's always something that's given me a lot of hope. It's a book that I've read like minimum 20 times over the course of the last 20 years. The second one is Presentation Secrets of Steve Jobs. It's, it's a sales book, but it's more about like presentation and communication. My entire kind of sales career and philosophy is built around that framework and that structure. And the third resource is actually a friend and mentor. His name is Lloyd Lobo. He started Traction Conference, also started boast.ai, and he's just someone that I look up to. You know, it's just Someone that kind of does his own thing and doesn't take any, you know, doesn't take any shit from anybody and always been, you know, a great friend to me.

Nice. Awesome. We'll put those, all 3 of those resources in the show notes. So if you guys want to check that out. Melissa, what does success mean to you today? I mean, you've had 2 successful startups, building on your 3rd, growing, you know, doing— seems like you're doing very well. How do you define success today, whether personally, business? Financially, life, I guess there's no right answer.

Yeah, I mean, I grew up in a very materialistic culture, grew up in Hong Kong, and you're, you know, in those kinds of big cities, you're defined by what you have. And I grew up thinking that money was the only measure of success. And I think to an extent, it's, you know, it's still a measure of success. Um, but now I've learned that it's not the only measure of success. Um, the thing that I care most about now is freedom and community and experiences. Um, you know, experiences meaning like travel or going on trips with my friends or spending time with my friends. Um, money is important, but it is the thing that gets me the freedom to do more of the things I actually love. That is, you know, more than just—

Mm-hmm.

Working and money. So I think success to me is the ultimate freedom to do all the things that I love to do and as little of the things that I hate to do.

That makes sense. It's just the fuel for being able to have more experiences and be free to choose your experiences, right? I think is what you're kind of saying.

Yeah. I mean, unfortunately, I do like nice things as well, and I like to go to nice places. So I'm not saying like, I think it's important to embrace your desire for financial success if you want to be successful. But it's not the only thing that I chase.

Right. It's not the money itself. It's like, what the— this is the result. Yeah, exactly.

Absolutely.

Cool. Melissa, this has been fantastic. Love talking with you. So just, you know, last question to end off the episode. Where can founders listening in get in touch with you, learn about you, and as well check out eWebinar?

Yeah, if you're curious about eWebinar and see how it can help you scale your business and automate your own webinars, just go to ewebinar.com. It's exactly as it's spelled, ewebinar.com. There's a demo on our site that you You can join anytime. And if you have any questions for me or want to connect, I'm on LinkedIn. My last name is spelled Kwan, K-W-A-N.

Awesome. Thank you so much, Melissa. I appreciate you being on today.

Yeah, thanks so much, Akeel.

Cheers.

Thank you all for watching this episode and joining SaaS District today. Don't forget to like, subscribe, and hit the bell for future episodes where we interview top leaders in the SaaS industry. If you're a SaaS company looking to grow and unlock the true value of your business, get in touch with us at Horizon Capital, and myself or one of our consultants will provide a free assessment to help you get there and hit your goals. If you have any feedback or suggestions for this podcast, please comment down below and help us improve our content for you all. Thanks again, and see you on the next one.