Stefan Debois: Bootstrapping to $3M ARR and Embracing Outcome-Based Pricing #222

Hello, hello everyone.

This is your host, Akhil Jabbar, and welcome back to another episode of SaaS District.

In today's episode, we'll be talking about bootstrapping to $3 million in ARR and embracing outcome-based pricing. Today we have our guest, Stéphane Dubois, joining us. Stefan is the CEO and co-founder of PointerPro, a software platform to create your own online assessments with auto-generated personalization reports. It also helps you turn your expertise into a tool that delivers personalized advice at scale. So welcome, Stefan. Super excited to have you on the show today.

Thank you for having me, Akeel.

So I would love to hear your story. You guys are just over $3 million ARR now. You've done significant growth in the space in the last few years. I would love to hear your story, your background. How did you get into the space? I know you were a, you know, worked in project management, consulting, account management. You worked a lot of places from, you know, PwC to other places. I'd love to hear how you got into the SaaS space.

Yeah, sure. So indeed, I am an engineer as an educational background. It's already a long time ago. And then I started my career, in fact, in consulting because consulting was for me a like a way to still have like a choice because you are in contact with different clients, different projects, and then you can still see what you like and what you don't like for the remainder of your career. So that's basically like this variation is why I have chosen for consultancy. So, but then I was in total 15 years in consultancy. That's maybe a bit longer than initially expected, but okay. I had a great time there, as you say, like PwC CSC, Computer Science Corporation. And I was mainly working on big enterprise software projects like SAP and like the ERP, enterprise resource planning, like systems implementations, in fact. So always been working with enterprise software throughout my career, first as a consultant, But then, yeah, being an engineer, I wanted to create something myself, to create a software product myself and also a company around it. So then in 2012, I started like a side project first, like in parallel with my consulting job. It was like a quiz app where people could make their own quiz and run that on an iPad because it was the first days of the iPad back then. And it was like engaging to have a quiz with like pictures and videos and so on that device. But at first it was like just a hobby project and then it evolved into a professional tool. And also at that moment I decided also to quit my job and to Yeah, to work full-time for that new company. So back then we were named SurveyAnyPlace, or the company was named SurveyAnyPlace. So from quiz to survey, we did both quizzes and survey. Technically, there's not so much differences. And then, but yeah, in the survey market was kind of difficult because there's a lot of competitors. It's kind of commodity products, like the survey software, I mean. And we knew that we had to find something else or something more specialized or niche to grow faster and to really have that product market fit. And it was not magical. Masterplan also, which was about trial and error and talking to customers a lot. That in 2019, we added the personal reports, like with the outcome of the survey, the results of the survey that was used to create a personalized report. And the survey is then mostly an assessment. Well, What's in the name, but it's a questionnaire. And I mean, but if there is a report afterwards, then mostly we talk about assessments. So then we have this assessment with this personalized reports all in one tool, which makes us, made us more unique in the marketplace. So then the growth starts to accelerate. And then we decided also, that was last year that we decided Survey Anyplace, the survey was still in the name of the company, which was not a good thing with the assessments. And we were like really more than a survey. So then we changed the name to Point of Call, more abstract name, but it means in fact that we want to point people in the right direction digitally by giving them personalized advice. And that's what is behind the name. Love it.

I love the name PointerPro, pointing towards the right direction and make sure they're able to get into the digital space and ask people what they need to. So, you know, interesting, you know, you're an engineer as well, kind of like myself. And I hear a lot of these stories. I love it. Engineer turned entrepreneur. You know, I quit also back in 2014, I believe, or 2015, and, you know, haven't looked back since. But, you know, you made a choice to finally quit and go full-time on this project. We'd love to hear, you know, was there a certain threshold where you said, okay, this is the time, it's the right moment? And then from there, I would love to hear, you know, just have you guys raised any capital or was that completely bootstrapped at the time from up until now?

Yeah, it was completely bootstrapped and it still is. Like, as a decision from when to leave your job, I mean, also there it was, I think, more gut feeling, but like qualitatively, I had this other application which was called Tablet Quiz. Like back then, that was even before Survey Anyplace. That was the hobby project. But there was already like a website, but the quiz app itself was not paying. There was a website and I did some promotion and I had besides some like customers, like consumers that want to do a quiz about their dog or like something else, I had also professional companies using it on HR events and other things, like some bigger US telecom companies that used it at HR events, and then people sending emails that they were very happy with the tool and that they wanted to use it. And so if more and more of these use cases came Yeah, to my knowledge, then at that moment I decided to go all in. It was even not, I mean, I had no commitment yet that they were going to pay, but if a large company says that, okay, your tool is of use, I mean, that it's useful for them, then the logical consequence is that they want to pay for it. I'm not saying that all the problems are unsolved, but it's already like a good sign. So I would advise also others, if you have large companies using your tool, really, then if a US telecom company like AT&T uses your tool and it's useful for them, then they don't have a problem to pay like €50 or €100 per month because at that time that was the price point. So of course not. So that was the Nice.

So validation, you know, sometimes it's, you know, your own internal kind of cash flow situation or financial situation, but sometimes getting signals from larger corporations or businesses, you know, that's the validation you need to take on the full-time leap into it. And you took that risk and looks like it's paid off, right? You have over, you know, $300,000, almost $3 million in ARR with PointerPro now. Can you walk us through, you know, what you did? What was your formula? What was your key kind of playbook that worked? And is it possible that If somebody wants to replicate it today, would it be possible to have that kind of similar success if they were going to start again?

Yeah, in the beginning we did a lot of organic content marketing because the paid marketing was like too expensive for us in the survey markets. It was pretty competitive. So we relied on like SEO, search engine optimization and content marketing. And that has paid off, but only after a while. So it's important to realize that it takes time. I mean, meanwhile, of course, in the beginning, you, I mean, because I had 15 years experience, so you have your own network and would certainly recommend to also use that. Of course, it's not scalable infinitely. But certainly use your network and use the logos then that hopefully results from that. Use it to attract new customers from outside your network. Like, for example, with content marketing, with SEO. And that has paid off. Like, until now, we have still like half of our leads to those channels. Then in 2019, when we started the assessments, then paid advertising became more interesting because assessments are more niche markets. And the lifetime value of our customers was also bigger than with the survey customers. So then the Google Ads and then some other channels became interesting. So positive return on investment. And so now it's a combination of those 2 and with some referrals, some other channels also, but it's mostly inbound marketing, both paid advertising and organic now.

Love it. So you've grown completely through organic inbound and ads. So you haven't done any, you don't have a sales team, you don't have account executives, you don't have SDRs, you don't have a VP of sales, which is— oh, you do now?

We have a sales team. Yes, we have a sales team because it's inbound, but it's not touchless. I mean, we have the small plan is product-led or like just self-service, but that's only a minor part of our revenue. The larger plans, Are still inbound, like, acquisition by inbound marketing. But at the moment that they, that prospect wants to, or is interested in buying the plan or knowing more, it's a contact sales button and then the sales delivers a demo and then hopefully they are convinced and then they sign up for the plan.

So you mentioned in here your notes, you almost 10x'd your traffic through organic means. Can you share maybe a little bit more deeper on the technicals of the SEO tactics that worked back then? And now with kind of the AI world, what are you seeing working or not working or different in 2023 going into next year, 2024?

Yeah, the organic tactics is mostly making landing pages specifically for your use cases. Like, for example, for us, the different types of assessments, like maturity assessments, self-assessment, risk assessments, make those landing pages not too commercial, like in Wikipedia style, educational, like copy. You explain what, for example, a maturity assessment is and give some tips on how to create one. And then afterwards, you can, of course, include a call to action, or you can Also talk about the advantages of your tool specifically for that use case, include an example. Yeah, something that I'm always saying to my marketing team, if your boss would tell you to create a maturity assessment and you have only one page, I mean, you find one resource on the internet, which, what would be the ideal resource to assist you in creating such a maturity assessment, for example? from scratch. This is the landing page that you have to write. So if you do that, then Google will index you and the ranking, of course, is not— if you start, it will not come automatically. That would be too naive. Of course, we have already a website with a certain authority, but in the beginning, like link building is important. Not the spammy link building, but like really find other companies that want to link to you, but in return you have also to link to them, or from your guest blogs you have to link to them. So guest blogging is also important. So there's a whole system of kind of reinforcing each other when it comes to content marketing and SEO. But with still the end user in mind and staying, making sure that the content stays relevant. So making sure that you don't include links that have nothing to do with the content of the article. So it's a balance because we have a group of content marketers and bloggers to exchange links. And yeah, sometimes we refuse things that they want to enter a link in our article which has nothing to do with it. So then we refuse it. But as long as you're still relevant and you collaborate to create good content for the end user with links that add value, then you can Yeah, then you have both. You can serve both purposes. You can make the best article for the end user and have it also linking to the best resources. And in return, you will be linked then also to from time to time. And that's a flywheel that has made or that has resulted in our increased SEO traffic, as you say.

So the whole kind of the strategy, so you're talking about kind of interlinking there. So, you know, when did you, you know, a lot of people say, you know, $1 million, $2 million ARR, and then they kind of switch and start playing with paid marketing. And you mentioned you guys started to delve into that. When did you make that transition? What would you recommend to anyone listening? And, you know, they've built their company with organic and now they want to start playing with paid. When do you think is a good time? If the numbers make sense, obviously.

I think if you have already— we did it only after 7 years when we started to do the assessments because then we had a niche where it was specific enough to make the paid ads profitable. And also our annual contract value was higher then, which makes it easier to to make the paid ads profitable. But we tried it before with surveys, but it didn't succeed. So you always have to try. I would recommend to always try because that's the advantage with paid advertising over organic. You see results much faster, but you see also when there are no results much faster. So you can quickly iterate. So certainly do it. But if you're in a niche market, you could— it will be more likely to result in a positive return because if you are in a CRM market or an email marketing software market, it will be more difficult. But still then, if you have a niche like no email marketing for real estate, Companies, then you can still try those keywords and make them profitable if you are a unique provider in that space.

Yeah, I don't think bidding $40, $50 a click for email marketing is going to work very long in this case. Yeah, cool. I want to switch gears a little bit and understand on the consulting side, you worked a lot on the consulting world and it's very similar in the SaaS space and understanding the pricing. Outcome, you know, and one thing I always agreed with and what you talk about, which is how the right way to bill and set pricing is outcome-based, right? You charge people based on results, based on the outcome rather than, you know, sometimes it's time-based, right? Can you delve maybe some of the drawbacks of, you know, what you've seen as, you know, time-based pricing for consultants and then why would you go, you know, outcome-based and why is it more effective?

Yeah, yeah, sure. Yeah, with our tool, of course, we automate the advisory process for consultants. So when automating means making more efficient so that you can generate more output with less resource, with less people, of course, if you build in time and material, like building by the hour or by the day, and you make it more efficient thanks to digital tools like ours or others, then the results will be that you will build less, effect because, and that's not the intent, of course. We want to have more revenue in general. So therefore we say you have to switch first from time and material to fixed price and a fixed outcome as a consultant or a professional service provider. And let's say it's not like black and white. In general, when we used to be in consulting, we preached that whenever a project is new and you don't have a lot of expertise in the area and there is a higher risk, then you go for time and material. Whenever you have acquired expertise, you have done lots of projects in a certain area, it's always the same system, the same methods, then you go for a fixed price because then there's more like ways to make it more efficient for you and then fixed price will lead to increased profitability. Yeah, so, but in general, of course, when you have less expertise and you do everybody, sorry, everything for everybody as a consultant, Like if you start, I mean, you're experimenting also to see which is your best customer and what kind of service you can offer. Then time material is perfectly okay. But as you evolve as a consultant, there will be like first step of specialization. You will focus on a number of service offerings. And then the next step is for each of these service offerings. Go from time and material to fixed price because then it becomes more like a productized offering. Many advantages like more profitability, but then afterwards also you can begin to think more seriously about digitization, making things more efficient. And if you do that, that will lead to To increase profitability and not just to revenue loss like with time and material model. Right.

I mean, at the end of the day, you're giving them the results, you know, no matter how long it takes because you've now processed it, you've systemized it, you have a good process to be able to do it faster than maybe if you were to do it, you know, starting from scratch and taking your time to do it, right? But once you have it, you're saying kind of repeatable process, then it probably kind of makes it easier to Switch to results-based, it kind of becomes win-win, right?

Exactly. Of course, it's more difficult at the start because the only advantage of time and material is that it's an easy model. You just agree a price with the customer and at the end of the week or the month, you count your hours or days and then you just multiply it by the rate. So it's very easy. But the advantage of fixed price is that you you are forced to think about the value that you deliver. And the value will in most cases not be proportional or it will not be linearly proportional with the time that you spend. So, and that's interesting to think about how you deliver value to the customer and then define the outcome which contains the value. Could be the outcome, could be deliverable, could be also a series of workshops or like, but then and going discussion with the customer whether, yeah, what the price could be for that kind of deliverable or outcome. And then maybe the customer will find too expensive or, but then at least you have some input, you can fine-tune the price and also the product offering. And then you come to a fully productized service where, I mean, as I say, there's more possibility to optimize it, to make it more efficient, and to earn more money.

Just last question on that. As a consultant working with consultants, for example, AT&T comes to you and says, hey, solve this problem. We have this consultant comes to you and says, If we're, you know, the report, the way we're managing our reporting and our assessments and our data, it's taking me 5 hours a week right now to do manually, right? And then you come in and say, okay, we've got this tool. It's going to take you from 5 hours down to an hour. And it's only going to cost, like, do you say I'm going to charge you $29 a month for this tool? This is the thing. Or, you know, that's, I'm saving you 4 hours. Your time is worth $100 an hour. And in a month, that's, you know, what's that? $1,200, $400, $800. That's $1,600 a month right now. Or right now you're saying, I'm going to base it off of that $1,600. And what is that? They might be charging you $800 a month. So I'm going to save you half your time and money so you can work on other things. I'm just thinking how you like to look at that and maybe for other people to think about. Is it $29 a month? Is it $800 a month? Or is it the full $1,600 that you're trying to translate your value and service to?

Yeah, mostly. Yeah, our tool, I mean, is only a part of the puzzle, of course, but our tool lets consultants put their expertise in an assessment, and then the tool will deliver automatic advice, an automatic advice report based on what the customer has responded to the questions in the assessment. An advice report that could be— I mean, normally you should not be seeing a difference whether a consultant has written that advice report or it's generated by the tool. So, of course, then if you multiply what the consultant normally costs per hour or per day, then you can easily calculate what the tool saves you in terms of money. Of course, the more assessments you make, The more it will save you. If you only create one customer report every 2 months, then it's not worth it. But when it's very repetitive and when the advice is given based on the same model, same system, oftentimes, like for example, an employee engagement, an employee wellness assessment that consultants do for thousands of employees at their clients, and each time it has to produce an individual assessment report for the employee, yeah, then of course the tool saves a lot of time and effort. And then those projects are typically sold not by the hour. That is Work by the consultants, but is sold, like, for example, per assessment taken or just as a generic fixed price or whatever, but not by the hour.

Got it. So you kind of blend it all. Love it. Yeah. I mean, you guys, this is fantastic. I'm just looking at, you know, you have the different use cases, different features for different assessments. You know, we even, you know, we create reports all the time. You know, we look at risk when we do investments. You know, we have our assessment tool. But, you know, obviously, our recommendation and how we create reports for investors to our team is all done, you know, internally processed. But I can see, you know, how a tool like this would, you know, automate a lot of that or help save a lot of time. So I definitely see the value.

Yeah, for business assessment, we have use cases in there also, like, that the business is, like, evaluated and, for example, the business exit readiness, for example. And we will not like replace everything that the consultant knows, of course. But like oftentimes the basics, what are the top things that you have to look at when you sell your business? These can be perfectly done by asking some questions and giving some really targeted advice. Then you could still say to, like, for example, prospects that are in your funnel. So You take first this assessment and then you go, if the, for example, the scoring is less than like 2 out of 5, then you go back and you work on the advice that was given in the assessment and you come back one year later when you are further in the maturity level. And otherwise, when they are like ready to be exited, you put a consultant or sales or like Whoever at your company is responsible, you put it on the customer.

Absolutely. Yeah, that makes sense, right? I mean, this is stuff that are kind of maybe just more time consuming in creating the content and presentation of the reports. But when it comes to the knowledge and the actual recommendations or understanding the market, that's where the real value from the bigger value comes, right? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I love it, Stefan. This has been great. I would love to shift gears, go into the rapid-fire questions. Are you ready for those?

Yes, yes, yes. Sure.

All right, cool. Stefan, what's one activity you enjoy outside of work that you say gets you into flow state?

It's probably sports. And then we are talking mainly mountain biking, kitesurfing, snowboarding, these kind of things, probably all of the 3.

Love it. All the outdoor activities. Yeah. What's one piece of advice you wish you had known? And if you can go back, you would tell your, say, 30-year-old self or 25-year-old self?

Yeah, perhaps maybe it's not so conventional that they say often, like, you have to use your network to start like your own business or your network is important, of course. And I say yes, that's sure, because we have acquired our first customers also via our personal networks. It's very important to build your own network, but it's not scalable because your own network is not infinite. So you should use your own network, but at the same time, Go outside your network as fast as possible. So it's the first customer, of course, as SaaS companies is really aha moment, a moment of joy. But another even more important moment of joy is when first customer like from Australia who has found us via the website, who doesn't know me, doesn't know my co-founder, just out of the blue found us and became a customer. So outside the network, that is important because if you have one customer from Australia or wherever, yeah, that's a sign that can be multiplied and there can be a lot of customers by that funnel. So use what you have built in your own network to go outside your network as soon as possible. That I would give as advice.

Love it. What are some of the biggest challenges you're currently facing in order to continue to grow and scale PointerPro? Meaning what's keeping you up at night these days?

Yeah, there's different things. I think for the inbound marketing, we have— there's also— or there's only so many leads. That are like, or prospects that are looking for on the internet for like assessment software or the things that we sell basically. So it's not infinite. So we have to switch to, well, not switch, we have to add other channels to it and to decide on which channels those are and how to make them also scalable. That is probably the biggest challenge. So now we want to ensure that people, yeah, they know us before they need us. So more like top of funnel marketing and thought leadership. So that's one channel. And the second one is more land and expense with the existing customers. For example, Deloitte Netherlands is a customer that you also will go for the other countries or the Deloits in the other countries. So those are the main things that we are looking at now.

Makes sense. Who or what would you say are some of the best 3 resources? These can be books, mentors, or maybe people you follow in the space who you'd say has been most instrumental to your success over these last few years in growing, or even from the beginning.

Yeah, we sometimes say it here internally. Like the 3 most important, and it's in sales and marketing because in product and other areas, probably other people. But in sales and marketing, it's, yeah, for sales, it's everything from Winning by Design and Jack Cole. So Winning by Design, if you can, I mean, you can look up the website and there's a lot of free tools, also some paid ones like books and so on. So that's really sales and specifically sales also for technology or software companies. Then if you have marketing, then it's, I think, Chris Walker from Refine Labs, who has also this more mindset of doing more top of funnel, like not always the things that can easily be measured, but that are still effective in marketing. So Chris Walker of Refine Labs. And then in between the two, I think it's like positioning experts. Like April Dunford. She also has a new book recently about— she had already a book about positioning. Now she has a book about sales pitch and she has also a podcast, I think. Yeah, I mean, listeners should certainly check out her also. If you combine the advice of those 3 people, I think in SaaS, that's a very good beginning.

Completely agree. Fantastic people to follow. Yeah, I know Jaco as well from Winning by Design, and I've heard of the other 2 as well. Yeah, awesome. What does, uh, Stefan, what does success mean to you today, whether that's, you know, personally, business, financial, life? There's no right answer.

Yeah, for business, I think, um, I mean, yeah, business and personal is kind of interlinked. Because the one influences the other. Like for business, I think it's a combination, I think, of being able to demonstrate that we can develop a company here in Belgium or in Europe that sells to customers globally because we see that, I mean, first, Software becomes more important in the world, like in the business world, in personal life also. And secondly, most of the software is developed in the US. These are 2 important trends that I think then as a European, we have to, yeah, I mean, nothing bad with the US at all.

Yeah.

We can take them as an example for many things. But certainly we are able to do this in Europe also. Why not? So 50% of our customers is in the US. So as a European company, we can do also the other way around. We can create a company here and then sell to US and other customers. And I want to demonstrate that and also inspire others to do it. And hopefully if others look at me and Point of Co and they See, okay, they can do it, and they will maybe be inspired if they can do it. Maybe we can also do it, and there will be more companies like us in the future. And I think that fundamentally will contribute to our, I think, to our prosperity here in Belgium and also in Europe, because those companies are, I mean, innovative. They bring work to jobs to people. And yeah, for the long-term well-being of the people and the economy, that's a good thing.

Love it. Yeah, that's fantastic. Especially anyone here listening in who's in Belgium looking to aspire to be an entrepreneur, or you are an existing entrepreneur, you can learn a lot from Stefan. He's done great things and has expanded across the world selling to clients all over. That's fantastic.

And they can always reach out to me to ask for advice or whatever to exchange experience.

Thank you. Thank you. So we'll end with that. Where's the best place to get in touch with you founders or anyone listening in, get in touch with you, learn more about you or your company?

Yeah, I'm most active on LinkedIn, not so much on the other social media networks, but on LinkedIn I'm pretty active. So you can just get in touch with me. As I said, I would be happy to do an online call. Even if you want to have a coffee here in Antwerp, that's also okay to check out. And then for the products, Point of Pro, that's on the website pointofpro.com. And you'll find, of course, information about the product, but also other things like the transformation of your consultancy from Yeah, traditional consultancy to the digital consultants, which is not only about tools, but as I said, it's also about changing your mindsets, changing your model from time material to fixed price and these kinds of things. Everything is explained in the various resources on the website.

Awesome. We'll add those links to our show notes, including the LinkedIn, the website. Make sure you guys say hi, check out Stefan if you guys are in the Belgium area. Or at Torp Area, make sure to reach out and grab coffee as well. So thank you, thank you so much, Stefan. Really appreciate you joining today.

Thank you very much, Akeel, for having me. It was a pleasure.

Cheers. Thank you.

Thank you all for watching this episode and joining SaaS District today. Don't forget to like, subscribe, and hit the bell for future episodes where we interview top leaders in the SaaS industry. If you're a SaaS company looking to grow and unlock the true value of your business, get in touch with us at Horizon Capital, and myself or one of our consultants will provide a free assessment to help you get there and hit your goals. If you have any feedback or suggestions for this podcast, please comment down below and help us improve our content for you all. Thanks again, and see you on the next one.