The #1 BEST Marketing Strategy You *Probably* Forgot About (With Top Brand Strategist Jen Kem)

Forget trying to fix that funnel that is not performing. Stop stressing over the metrics on your latest launch, ignore what so and so did in their recent promotion and watch this interview from top to bottom. Because according to this top brand strategist, you don't have a marketing problem. You have a messaging problem. And today you're going to find out what you can do to fix it so you can transform your business and get your dream clients obsessed with what you have to offer. Keep watching Foreign. It's Alex and I am so excited to introduce you to my friend and Posse Fest speaker, the incredible Jen Kim. The woman who freaking Forbes named as a top brand strategist. Jen is the founder of Master Brand Media where she represents and advises influencers such as celebrity CEOs, experts, specialists, authors and speakers. And you guys. She has worked with some huge brands like Oracle, Microsoft, Cisco, Blue Cross, Blue Shield, Verizon, Coca Cola, Nestle, Zappos and Kellogg's just to name a few. And she has brought in billions. Yes, that's billions with a B for her clients over her 25 plus year career. As you will hear in this interview, Jen has a knack for snow, smelling the money and spotting the winners. Maybe that's why she's made billions of dollars for her clients. And she is going to tell you exactly how she does it and it is not what you think. In fact, I would bet good money that you are overthinking your marketing in all the wrong ways. You're about to find out the number one best strategy for getting seen, heard and paid that most people completely forget about. Here's my interview with the amazing Jen Kim. Jen Cam, welcome to my YouTube channel. I am so excited you're here.

Oh my gosh. I super pumped. Been waiting all day for this one. So thanks for inviting me. Alex.

We finally made it. I know we were texting back and forth, we were scheduling around, you know, YouTube video filming and all of that, but I'm so excited to be chatting with you and I feel like we have to start just by sharing a little bit of the story of how Jen and Alex became friends, you know, on the Internet and in real life. I actually met you back in 2011. We were both speaking on the same stage at an event and I have to tell you, this was like my first event I had ever spoken at. I had just quit my job at Mindvalley and was like trying to be a super professional businesswoman and got invited to speak on stage at this event. I don't think I've ever been so intimidated speaking on stage and meeting you there and just absolutely being one blown away by your brilliance. Because as someone who's been in this industry for a very long time, a lot of the people I had seen on stages were men. And so right from the beginning, I just had like major girl crush on, on you. And then later you ended up coming to an event that I had produced as part of my role still at Mindvalley, a fest in Hawaii in 2011. And that was just sort of the beginning of our online friendship and in real life friendship. And I just have to say I've always been such a huge fan of everything that you do.

Oh my gosh. And same. And for those of you listening 2011, I mean, we are basically like, we're golden girls now because in Internet years, that's like what like. Or is it like dog years in Internet years? Right? Like, that's right when you've known each other for real. For real for 13 years. That's pretty, that's, that's, that's something. So I'm, I'm, I'm grateful and I'm, it's cool because it looks like we are still around. So that means we're pretty durable too in the rocky road that is online and digital marketing. Right.

So I was just gonna say it is so easy to be a flash in the pan in online marketing. And I think this is just such a great lead into what it is that we're going to be talking about today. Which is, which is branding and messaging and really what that means for lasting power on the Internet when literally people are distracted every 20 seconds and there's always something louder, always something vying for attention. And this is just a little teaser too, by the way. Posse Jen Kim is going to be speaking on stage at Posse Fest this October. Now I have to tell you, I feel like a 13 year old girl who invited all the coolest kids to her birthday party and they said yes and they're coming. When I say our speakers are world class, I mean world class. I am bringing you the best of the best. And when it comes to branding, there was only one person I had in mind to bring into Posse Fest and it was Jen. And I'm just excited for you to hear a bit of her wisdom today because branding is sort of, you know, it's a word that gets thrown around a lot and sometimes we almost like say it so much it loses its meaning. Uh, but I actually happen to think it's one of the most valuable assets and skills that we can have in business today. So, Jen, let's just dive in. I first, before we get to your genius, want to share with the posse a little bit about how you got into this whole world. What were you doing before you started your, you know, master brand media company that, you know is today?

Well, I mean, I'm an accidental entrepreneur. I tell people that was not, you know, back when I was figuring out what I wanted it to be. And I still think I'm figuring out what I want to truly be. And I think that's life. Like you're constantly evolving. And we'll talk more about that when we really get into brand. But really my first pursuit in doing this work was in the corporate world. So I spent 12 years first as a junior copywriter at Ogilvy and Mather, which is.

Have we heard of it?

Yeah, they're like, you know something, the godfather of. Of marketing, really. And certainly still, Ogilvy's models are still used today by both humans and machine learning to write, persuasive messaging. And so I had the opportunity right out of college to go work there as a junior copywriter. But the funny thing is, I really didn't write anything. I mainly got coffee for the account executives who were managing these billion dollar marketing budgets. And I mean it like Coca Cola was one of our clients back in the day. They still are, I believe, a client of Ogilvy. But this is back, okay. My son, who's 9 years old, calls me. She's like. He's like, mom, you were born in the late 1900s. I'm like, yes. And I started my career in the late 1900s too. And so I always tell people, I'm not a spring chicken, I'm a season chicken.

Yeah.

And anyway, back then, you know, in the mid-90s, imagine Coca Cola having a billion dollar advertising budget like in 1996. So, you know, anyway, I was a junior copywriter, just really, really wanting to learn how to write and really enthralled with just the way people made decisions. My actual education is in both psychology and business. And so you could call me a brand psychologist in a way. Like, I was just so fascinated with why we make decisions to purchase things and to, like, be associated with things. And so that's kind of started my career. When I left the corporate world, I was living in Silicon Valley because I worked in the San Francisco office back in the day of Ogilvy. I ended up moving into high tech because Silicon Valley was where it was at. This was the first Silicon Valley boom. And I got to work alongside people like Tony Hsieh, who some of you may know, he founded Zappos.com, which got acquired by Amazon. He's now passed. But he's a real big leader in innovation and how culture and brand. And he was literally my neighbor in these tech incubators that we were in, where then I moved from copywriting and advertising to actually go to market product launching, so bringing products to market. And so my marketing career and my strategy career has really. I've gotten a really great opportunity to work with all kinds of products, consumer SaaS, big tech companies. And the truth is, is that it's one of my great loves. So when you ask about my story, like, there's only. I didn't want to leave the corporate world, let's put it this way, because I had learned, like, it's so exciting to bring a new product to market. Right. And the only reason I left, Alex, and this is a whole nother YouTube video. But I left because I was passed up for a CMO position that I'd been promised after I took one of the biggest and most, I'd say, magnanimous ideas that affects us all today, which is streaming, like basically online streaming of video. Back then, old people used to call it Internet protocol television. Right?

Yeah. Wait for whatever that was. The voice messaging.

Yeah, One of the leaders. It was one of my last projects before I got passed up for this promotion and realized I had no autonomy. I had, like, I had all this skill set and I was always that go to girl who was leading all these big projects, but I still didn't have command over my future. And it was in that moment that I realized, you know what, I have enough experience that maybe I could do this on my own. And I also had two young daughters at the time who I felt needed more my attention. So I left the corporate world, but I did not leave excitedly, let's just put it that way. I was nervous. I had all those things, but it's. What I did is I jumped into entrepreneurship. And in 2008, when I. Well, 2006, I left. And I didn't start a career in this work right away. I thought like any new entrepreneur, that I should start a business in something else that I didn't know.

Right.

Bad mistake. When people were like, well, if you did things over what you do, I'm like, I would actually have become a consultant immediately in the work that I already was known for. But instead I started a retail and a real estate business. And Because I'm so good at smelling the money and bringing products to market. I picked a niche that I felt could really pay off. And it worked for two years. We did over $10 million in the two years that I started this company. And it was in underwear. Okay, wow. Women's underwear. Even in the media, I was known as the understyler. It was crazy. You were a panty tycoon. I was like, all of that. And there's a whole story there too, because I love.

I didn't that. Yeah.

And so I always tell people, like when we talk about brand and everything, it's like, brands shape culture. And what I learned over the course of my career and is that if you pick the right winners, and there's ways to pick those right winners and become a winner in terms of your ideas, whether it's a personal brand, you're building, you know, a reputation for a specialty like copywriting, or, you know, you have a product that you want to bring to market, all the rules apply. The same rules apply. So anyway, the problem was that in 2008, there was a great recession and I was a small business that did not have Daddy Warbucks. I was not Annie and had a daddy. I, you know, I didn't have any of that. So even though we were really successful in top line revenue, I didn't have the cash reserves to see me through that dark period. In 2008, I lost it all. I mean, and it was a big blow falling from my pedestal, if you will, of like, always kind of ascending up. I never really had a struggle, and I'm just naming that because I was always, like, wanting, like, I was always excited about what I was working on. But when I lost it all, it was a really fateful moment.

Yeah.

When I lost everything. My house, my business, my marriage. I was functionally homeless. I had to go move back into the countryside and live in my grandma's one bedroom house with my two kids. And it made me humble around, like, oh, what am I good at? And like, what. What can I contribute to the world? Because I felt like a total failure. And so what happened was I realized that to be successful, I should just go back to what I'm good at, which is smelling the money, picking the winners, bringing products to market, and creating a lot of excitement around a product or a service. And so I went back to my old employer, who I left and said, would you like me to come work for you again? And they were like, yes. And I was like, but I don't want to Be employee. I don't want to be an employee. I want to be a consultant. And that's how MasterBrand Media started. I flipped the switch, if you will, and they're still my client to this day since 2008. And I've made millions, not to brag, but millions over the course of. Over a decade of now supporting them in a different way. And that's just proof that you can either choose to work for a company and learn a lot, or you can actually go on your own and add value and create a different way of contribution with your skills. Oh, yeah, that's like kind of my. That's my career story.

Anyway, I love it and I love that you share the ups and downs too, because it's important for people to know that. I mean, I can feel like that feeling that you must have had when, you know, you had left your position at this company, which was probably a very cushy, nice job.

Oh, girl, let me tell you, I have no good reason to leave. I was making $400,000 a year. This was in 2006, friends.

Yeah.

I had a corner office with a view with a disco ball in it. No joke. I had it installed. And then the. The best thing I had, besides those two things was a parking spot. And it had my name on it. Like, C jobs.

Like, you made it. Yeah.

Oh, yeah. It was like, Jen, MF Chem. In my head. That's what it was saying. It just said Gen Chem. But MF was in the middle and I was like. I was like, I've made it. So back to, like, leaving was not easy because I had all these trophies and these triumphs. But I also realized that, gosh, like, I had no freedom at all. Like, I. I was a, frankly, a servant totally to my. To my work. I had to get two kids to school. I had to bring my dogs to the doggy daycare, get to work, put mascara on my eyes while I was driving to work, get there by 8:00am you know, do all the things. And I was like this. I love my work, but I didn't love the structure of my life. And so, you know, I'm glad that they passed me up for that promotion. And what I also realized is, like, you don't have to be the smartest and the best. Sometimes it's about who you're around. And in this case, I was so busy bringing these big products to market that my counterpart who was in consumer marketing, which, by the way, consumer marketing, always the most flashy, the most sexy, but the Lowest profit business marketing, way more profit. And I ran the business marketing group and he was busy playing golf with my boss and I realized that, gosh, I should have played golf more and worked less. And again, so when you start to realize the rules of the game, you can start to create whatever you want.

So, so many good lessons there. And, and what a gift that, you know, you being passed up for that promotion.

Right?

Because I, for me, I had a similar story where I was the creative director at Mindvalley. I was 25, you know, really making waves in this industry as someone who's.

Very good at it because I remember 25 year old Alex, that's when I met her. So I remember, God, she was fun.

You know, like, I need to bring.

Back, I need to bring back more of that girl.

But I was really good at it. But I was ill. I mean, a lot of people here know I, I had to leave my job at Mind Valley because it was in Malaysia and I found out I was. Well, I quit my job because of health reasons and then later found out that I was celiac and just couldn't live in Malaysia. It wasn't a place that catered to someone who couldn't have gluten. And I just remember at first feeling like, oh my God, what have I done? And now I look back, I'm like, what a gift that was. And so, you know, we could do a whole other series on, on life lessons and, and how to pivot. But really this belief, and I think this is sort of a, almost a mantra that all entrepreneurs need to adopt, is that everything that happens to you is the best possible thing that could happen to you, even if you don't know it yet, because rolling with the punches is sort of the name of the game. And I love that you're, I just love your story and how transparent you are about that because now you are leveraging your skills. You are working with, you know, amazing clients, celebrities, CEOs and truly impacting hundreds of thousands of business leaders. And I just think it's, it's so epic to watch your story and you're a mom and I mean, you're just amazing. And I want to, I mean, you talked about how your skill set is. First of all, I love it. Smelling the money and then picking winners. And we're going to talk in just, you know, a little bit here really about what that formula is because I'm sure everyone was like, how does she smell the money? Tell me how she smells the money. But first I want to talk A little bit about branding in general because again, it's kind of this word that, I mean, I've always been a fan of branding. Back when I was the creative director at mindvalley, branding was the heart of everything we did. Yes, we were a direct response marketing company, but branding was, was the thread through everything. And so I come from a branding background like you, but when you go into the marketing world, it's kind of like fluffy word that gets thrown out and a lot of people are like, ah, branding shmanning. But you consider yourself a brand futurist. And so I would just love to ask you, like Jen MF Kim, what is, what does brand mean to you and what do you see as the future of branding? Like, how is it shifting right now in this landscape where marketing is evolving so fast? You mentioned, you know, generative AI and all of that coming onto the scene. What role does branding play in all of this?

Well, it's exciting even more because I've always made this my life's work. I feel grateful that I became this instead of what I thought I was going to be, which I thought I was going to be like an attorney. I thought I was going to pursue law and become a corporate lawyer. And I. Yeah, and I accidentally fell into this because of other reasons. It was about a boy, let's just put it that way, when I was in college. And again, grateful for that drama.

Thank you, boy.

Yeah, yeah, thank you. He was not good. But I also will say that like made me go, well, if I'm not going to go do this, then I should pursue something that fascinates me. And so brand, let's just kind of define it. How I define brand is it's simply the art and science of persuasion, ultimately in the form of commerce, usually. Okay, so, and then marketing is, I define it as the way that you let people know how you help them. And that means that both brand and marketing are technology agnostic. They are mechanism agnostic. They're really about the strategy and the soul. And then you put the right container around it and that's what gets people to make decisions and purchase things. And brand has always been the heart of the greatest ideas that we all admire. Right. When you think of the most obvious one, it's like Apple. It's such, you know, it's iconic. Right. Not just their logo, but when Steve Jobs was ideating and envisioning Apple, he thought of brand first before he even thought about the technology. I mean, he also was mad at Bill Gates for the Microsoft platform and he really wanted to, like, create this special thing for creative people. But the point is, is that for him, it was what he was always fighting for inside of the Apple company. And so again, you're right. In digital marketing, it's been kind of annoying to like, for me, when I like, kind of came into this world and I'm like, branding is not just. And it definitely is not the logo or the colors. Yeah, all that, that's just later.

Actually.

Aesthetics are not the first thing you do with brand. The first thing you do with brand is who are you and what is the message? So it's identity and it's messaging. Ultimately, it's strategy. And strategy is freaking sexy. Like, strategy turns me on. We talk so much about vision and execution, which of course, those are really important. Yeah. But strategy is the reason I can smell the money. That's when people ask, like, how do you do that? I'm like, because strategy is the connective tissue between vision and execution. You can take action, take action, take action. But if you're not taking the right action, the strategic action, it's not going to have the potency that you want. And then if you have no vision and all you're doing is like throwing spaghetti at the wall, that's execution, then that doesn't work either. So strategy becomes this beautiful glue that puts it all together to make it function as this, this thing that people get excited and rally around and, and get obsessed with, frankly. And that's what brand is. Yes. You know, there are three types of brands. There are personal brands, product brands, and company brands. And they are different. And so in this world, back to machine learning, AI, etc, what I'm really excited about is now more than ever building your brand, which to me is a very creative opportunity. It's a way for you to express yourself, to evolve your identity, to again, message how you want to be seen, heard and paid. And I feel like now more than ever, human beings get to really create their identity, create their reputation, which is your personal brand. Everybody needs to do it, whether you're an executive. Like when I was, you know, when I was in the corporate world, I had a personal brand inside of the company. And now more than ever, even to get like more money, more promotions, you need a personal brand that says, oh, that person is the bomb. That person creates magic, that person makes things happen. So your personal brand's not just about creating a social media avatar of yourself or being on social media. It's really about, like, who are you and how do you want to be Known. And then how do you want to be referred? How do you want people to see you and trust you and all the things versus, like, if you're a product brand, that's the personal brand. So if you're a product brand, you know, it's like, it's the things that you sell. So obviously, like if you're selling expertise, like in the form of courses, masterminds, blah, blah, blah, you know, that's your product. If you're selling luggage, like away, and you want to disrupt an industry that no one thought could be disrupted. Hello, luggage, Amsonite. Tune me. Like, why did anybody think that they could do that? And yet the away girls did. That's your product brand. So you make somebody obsessed with the product. And then there's the company itself. If you want to build a company brand like Apple. Right. Because Apple has Steve Jobs, it has the Mac, and then it has Apple the company. Right. So those are kind of examples of different ways you look at bread.

So.

Yeah. And the future is that it's so important for us now to even be more focused on the identity of ourselves, of our products, of our companies. Yeah. That. Because those things cannot be innovated by machines. Right. In fact, machines are not innovators. Only humans can innovate. Right. Machines are the innovations. So more than ever, AI, etcetera, I look at those things as productivity shortcuts or hacks so that we actually get more space for creativity. Right. We get more space to build our identity in our brand. So to me, the is human, so not the future is not AI. So I agree.

I mean, everyone here knows that.

I agree.

But I think it's important to talk about. And, and this is, I mean, this is exactly why I had the vision for Posse Fest, because what I realized is there's so much noise right now online. And you talk about the difference between brand and marketing or messaging and marketing. And I love what you said when we were chatting the other day where you said, most people don't have a marketing problem, they have a messaging problem. And anybody who sees those two things as one and the same are completely missing the point. Because marketing is like. You'll hear people say, well, I built a funnel just like so and so. And it's not working. It's like the funnel is not the magic. The funnel is just putting pages in a lot in a line and having an opt in and a buy button like that is not the magic magic. The magic is in the messaging. And I see just so much fear building right now where People are talking about AI or they're talking about, you know, how the market is saturated or what's even the point? Or I don't have anything special to offer that that isn't already being offered. And what I'm seeing happening right now is that people are having, like, a major identity crisis when it comes to who they are, how they can solve problems, how they can guide their customers or clients, you know, across this river of doubt or fear or whatever problem or challenge they're having in their business. Because now we think, oh, well, AI is just going to do it. It's like, no, AI is a mechanism. It is a tool. It is a technology. But until you get clear on who you are and. And what you do and how you can serve and that identity piece that you're talking about, then the messaging crystallizes. Then you put marketing on top of that to fuel this, you know, this fire. And no matter what is happening in the, you know, the ecosystem or the marketing landscape, your brand becomes this, like, deep stake that you're putting in the ground saying, yeah, okay, cool. Technology will come and go, trends will come and go, like clubhouse and threads and like, all of these different marketing platforms that people, like, freak out over when they come out because they think this is the secret that's going to all of a sudden have me blow up. It's like, hell, no. It's about getting clear on who you are. And I just freaking love that you said that. And I'm so excited to chat more about all of this at Posse Fest, but I want get into kind of that, like, smell the money strategy part of it, because that might have to be the title of this video too. Like, here's how you smell money and then find the winners. But I know you. You really talk about what it takes to build a brand. And I know a lot of people that are listening to this. I think it's easy to look at, like, Coke or Starbucks or any of these big brands that we think about or Apple, and we're like, okay, but like, little old me, I'm just starting my business, or maybe I started my business recently and I kind of have a clear idea of, like, who I serve and what I do, but I just. I really don't feel a strong connection to my brand. I'd love for you to talk a little bit about what. What are the components that, you know, that make up a brand? And I know, you know, we're gonna go deeper into this at Posse Fest, but to talk about that and. And why it's important.

I mean, you know, oh my gosh, I can geek out of this all day long. Because I, I just want to amplify one more thing that you said before. I talk about the components because I think we're forgetting that the fun and fundamentals like F u n. That's why it's called fun dimentals. Like, here's what's cool. It doesn't matter if it's a new platform like Clubhouse or again, new AI tools popping up like, feels like a million a day at the end of the day. What's inside of those machines? Because they're all machines. I mean even Instagram is a machine. It's a platform to put your ingredients in and your messaging are the ingredients. Think of it like, again, like, think of it as like your computer. Right now you're looking at your computer and your computer does not work without an operating system. Your messaging is the operating system so that the computer, computer is the platform by which the messaging can be relayed to other people. So you know, thinking of messaging as the operating system and understanding that your identity and the people that you serve, like getting clear on the problem, you solve the person who has that problem and then why you're the person to help solve that problem. Those are the basics of identity, right? Once you get clear on that, then you go, okay, now I'm going to build my operating system around those things, those three things, which is your messaging. And you know, as I mentioned up at the top of this call, honestly, building a brand is really about psychology. It's deep psychology work. And that's the fun part for me because I get to like not look at any of the other platforms or machines first. I never look there first. I never look at a funnel to solve my problems. I look at the fundamentals first, then the funnel comes second. So fundamentals before funnels, please just remember that because if you smell the money, that's the trick. You know, it's so easy for us to be knee jerk. We live again in a world now, not only are we getting pummeled with thousands if not millions of marketing messages daily, right? We, because of that overwhelm, we tend to default to like, what's the easiest looking shortcut. And in the real world, like the world where commerce makes people lots of money, that's actually not how people who make money money think about things. They really do think about strategy, they think about brand, they think about how can we get people obsessed with this particular product. Like even you think about meta, which Owns Facebook and Instagram. You know, whatever you think of Mark Zuckerberg, his whole thing is like, how can I make people addicted to this thing? That's brand thing. Whether you like it or not, you can. The cool thing about building a brand is you get to be either Luke Skywalker or Darth Vader. You have both options. And we're hopefully, hopefully like moving towards the light side. But also I want to address when you asked Alex about, like, what if I'm new, right? I'm new and I'm thinking this through. And Jen, you're using some of these big companies as examples. So here's what I learned when I worked at Ogilvy, like back in the day, going back to that is that it doesn't matter. Because every startup, whether you are a person who wants to build a one person empathy empire, as Alex calls it, right? Like the empathy empire, or you actually have a vision to maybe build an agency, maybe you're going to have a few people working on your team or then maybe not an agency, but maybe, hey, I do have a product that I want to bring to market or maybe even an AI product that I want to bring to market that requires more investment, more people, more whatever. The cool thing is, is that everything I'm teaching you today is even where you are in your season of entrepreneurship. It's agnostic as well. That's what's exciting. It's technology. Messaging is technology agnostic. And it's season agnostic, meaning every single person who has had a big idea and a big idea just you having, making the decision that you want to start your own thing and you're in the early days makes this work even more important, right? To not actually jump into like, should I like learn how to do a funnel? You should be really asking yourself, who am I? How can I serve people? How can I create value that people exchange for monetary currencies and then pick the platforms you want to be on? You know what I mean? Like sometimes you pick the platforms first and I'm like, that's not what I would do. I would go to strategy first, which is, who am I and what's my messaging for this season? And then I would pick the right platforms to broadcast those messages. Like in this case, we're on your YouTube channel. And Alex, you've demonstrated as you build Copy Posse from the ground up, you know, you decided, I know you've told this story before. It's like you decided that once you figured out who you wanted to help first and how you could help them. Then it was like, YouTube is the platform I'm really going to go all in on to really, like, just get that message out there. And then from there, you're able to then create infinite content from there. Like, you can then put it on Instagram, you can put it in your email sequences. You can, like, you know, but a lot of times you go, I need to, like, do all of it. And because we're so worried about the platform or the funnel or the AI or whatever, we're not looking at the fundamentals, which is like the messaging piece.

Yeah. Or we're just looking at what other people are doing and going, oh, I guess that's what I need to do. So I'm just gonna do that. And it's, It's. It's completely missing the point. Yeah, absolutely. And, and, you know, to piggyback on that, getting clear on. On all of those things and how you want to show up in your messaging is honestly so, so powerful. A lot of people, even when they looked at me for starting when I started the Coffee Posse and when I started my YouTube channel, the Coffee Posse wasn't even an idea yet. I was Alex Katoni, who had a bone to pick with the marketing industry, and I knew I wanted to kind of shake stuff up. I'm trying not to swear on YouTube because I don't think YouTube likes that, even though you guys all know that. I swear. And I was able to just show up in this sort of like, rebellious, sassy me. And then really, the. The idea for the Copy Posse was born out of that.

Out of that.

That message, out of that brand. And I'm curious to hear you talk a little bit about messaging archetypes, Jen, because, I mean, if I had to sum up my messaging archetype, it would definitely be, you know, some sort of rebellious outlaw.

You're definitely a maverick brand, for sure.

Yeah. And so, yeah, tell me about the messaging archives, because it's such, I think, a powerful framework, and that's what I love about what about how you teach branding is. Because it can feel like such a who, like, who am I? You know, type of question, having a framework to give people to really go, oh, okay, this is who I am and how I want to show up. And you. And you teach this concept about messaging archetypes, and I'd love to just hear you chat a little bit about that and why it's so important to have that messaging archetype.

Yeah. Well, I want to give you the origin story of how I discovered how powerful Using these messaging brand archetypes are, again, back to the Ogilvy days. So I learned about this first over there. I was in a room bringing coffee to the account executives, and they were dueling. They used to do these brand duels. It was super cool. And it was basically the Pepsi Challenge versus Coca Cola. Like, they were doing this Coke versus Pepsi duel, and they were talking about how, like, Pepsi was really going all in on their messaging brand archetype, which is what we call the ruler, okay? Pepsi's brand is based on celebrity. Like, if you think about all of the people they've ever hired for advertising, Britney Spears, Michael Jackson, it's Cindy Crawford. Like, they're all people who are all about, like, celebrity and look at me and like, it's cool to be with us, right? You are. You are, like, elite. We're the best, right? And then Coca Cola, it was. Which was our account, you know, was Coca Cola's paying us a billion dollars to. To manage all their advertising. And, you know, Coca Cola is what we call a muse archetype brand, okay? And so there's nine archetypes, and I won't go through all of them here because we're going to give all of you listening a very cool way for you to just, like, learn it all in a minute. But Pepsi's the ruler. Coca Cola is the muse. And the muse archetype is actually about nostalgia and childlike wonder and the ability to make people hearken to a time that makes them feel really good. Whereas Pepsi, again, ruler archetypes about elitism, prestige, okay? Branding. And so right there, Earl, I was 22 years old and was like, oh, my God, this is so freaking cool. Right? And then they would call each other on it, like, that's not news branding. That's not news messaging. That's not ruler branding. And it was so cool. And I was like, okay, I need to know more about this. And so archetypes overall were, you know, not invented by even David Ogilvy. And there's a lot of different archetypal models. I know.

Yeah.

Alex has probably talked about this too. But I use. I use the messaging. My model is based on Carl Jung, the psychoanalyst Jung, who also is the heart of the Myers Briggs assessment, etc. His work. It's basically the psychological symbology that we assign as a society, and we decide that we want to align with that, let's say, that symbolism. And so the cool thing about your brand messaging archetype is that it's actually based on the founder. So Again, if you're a party of one or you actually lead a team or whatever, the archetype messaging for the brand is about the founder's messaging. And it's. You know, imagine I use Apple because it's. But everyone knows it is like when Steve Jobs died, Apple still retained its brand archetype. It didn't change just because he was no longer CEO or he was no longer here. Right. So this messaging technology, I'll even call it, it's like, to me, it's like a psychological technology, allows you to really, like, adopt a brand voice that feels authentic to you. Right.

So personify it. Almost like you said when. When Steve Jobs left Apple, it wasn't like people like, oh, no, what. What do we say now? It's like, yes, it was based on him. But then because of the brand archetype, it gave so much clarity to every single person working there, taking over future CEOs, everything like that.

Exactly. Because that's what I. That's why I say brands shape culture, because how you message your brand is what will shape the culture around it. Right. And so in giving you guys the origin of actually how I learned about it and giving homage to, like, those early days, then what happened was as I. I used it a lot in my corporate career. I came out to the entrepreneurial world and saw a lot of, like, personality assessments and things. And I realized, like, no one in my. That I could see. I'm sure there are, but I just couldn't find any people who were talking about brand archetypes in the way that I was talking about it. And it's power. You know, people were like, oh, I just want to know what I am. It's like a Disney princess. Let me know what Disney princess I am. I'm like, no, friends. This is not how you use it. You actually use it to understand the deep psychological motivations that you have to serve the world. And then it helps you direct the way that you message your brand, whether it's through copy, through voice, through speaking, on stages, through writing books or writing content, whatever it is. And so there are nine. I would say that definitely Alex is a maverick, dominant archetype. And the maverick is like that rebel, that outlaw, the one that's willing to burn things down so that something new can emerge that's really exciting and fresh and new.

Burn it down, baby.

Like, it's. It's all good. Whereas I actually am a ruler archetype brand. And to be honest with you, when I really started building my own assessment for entrepreneurs, and innovators. I was like, a upset that I tested out as a rule.

I'm a Pepsi.

I know. I'm like, I don't. First of all, again, my father told me when we were young that Pepsi is the devil. So I was like, I am not a Pepsi brand, you know, but really, I realized that, no, actually, like, my people come to me because. Not just because of, like, my longevity, if you will, in my experience, and my ability to evolve, but, like, I really focus on, in my mind, what is the highest possible success rate. Right? And rulers are all about, like, let's win. Like, let's win, win, win, no matter what kind of idea, right? So when I weaken my messaging by using other archetypes to describe my company, what I do, you can tell the difference in the energy, and people respond. And this is not, like, spiritual or anything. It's truly psycho. It's psychology. It's like they respond to energy. And your messaging archetype is an energy that you are sharing that people are like, oh, I dig that. I want. I want some of that energy, you know? So brands are really, like, cool, because it's. It's all of it. It's in the physical, it's in the spiritual, and it's in the energetic.

I'll even. I'll even tell you, like, when I first started. When I first started my YouTube channel, I mean, like, anyone who's just starting to put themselves out there, I felt like I was like, what? Who? Like, who am I? You know, like, am I a nice, quiet girl? No. Do I want the Internet to think so? Maybe. I don't know. Like, it was. I was, like, really trying to, like, I was struggling with, like, like, who is Alex online? Like, and my best friends knew who. Who I am. And by the way, it's such a compliment when people say, like, you're exactly who you are online as you are in real life. And. And I really realized, like, why am I so afraid to show, like, my sassy side to, like, all of you? And one day, and this is kind of how I feel, like my brand archetype really emerged, and it was part of myself, like, giving me permission to lean into it. Because I think so many business owners and entrepreneurs, copywriter service providers, we're afraid to, like, really own who we are because we're afraid that it'll polarize and push people away. And guess what? It absolutely will. But to Jen's point, the flip side of that is like, holy cow. I mean, once I really leaned in to my maverick you know, we'll call it Maverick Archetype. And I was like, this whole world opened up where I was able to say the things I really wanted to. To say I was wearing the things I really wanted to wear. You know, I can. I can act, dress, be who I am and fully own it, because I'm like, this is who I am, and this is my brand. And I remember one time I was on a training with students, and I was really fired up. And anyone who's in my programs know that sometimes I'm just, like, ranting and I'm, like, getting really fired up about some BS I was seeing online. And I was like, you know, it's my mission to just, like, de douche ify the Internet. And it's fell out of my mouth. And I'm watching the chat on this zoom just freak out because everyone is like, oh, my God. And I realized that I had hit a nerve, and I was like, oh, wow. Like, that is my brand archetype personified in a saying. And I won't lie, it took me a long time to even be able to confidently say that. Like, I would be at a state, on stage at an event, and I would be like, oh, there's a lot of people in the room who don't know me. And if I say, say that I might offend people. And the more I just had the courage to say it, the more people started being like, oh, my God. Yeah, you hear Alex, she's on a mission to deduce by the Internet. And then people started literally rallying around me. And so I love that you said that because it's been completely my experience. And sometimes it is like dipping your toe in and just waiting for the response until you have to. Until you can give yourself full permission. But I encourage all of you to really play around with that because we don't all want to be the same. Like, talk about boring and. And, you know, talk about AI. Like, all AI is doing is literally regenerating and regurgitating all of the same, so that everyone's messaging is this kind of. This flat no man's land of, like, who even are you? I don't know. It's. You're not standing out one way or the other. And this is such an opportunity for us right now to get so clear on that and lean into it and then watch what happens, because it's. It's truly magic when you can figure that out for your. For your business.

Totally. And here's the other thing that's cool is that in my model for brown archetypes and messaging, there are actually two what I call salt and pepper archetypes, if you will. So like there's the main dish. So in your case, Alex, I pretty sure you're a maverick. Okay. Dominant. We call it the dominant archetype and for me it's the ruler and I call it like the protein of the messaging. Like it's the meat, like it's like that's the heart and you really want to get good, as Alex just said, at really just trying to try it on. Like try it on, let it come through. Don't be literal about your archetype. More like embody the energy of like the maverick or energy of the ruler. Because that's the protein, right? It's like that's the chicken. Right. But in order for protein to taste good, you need two things. You need, well, you need seasoning. Okay. I'm Filipino, so we put seasoning on everything. And you know, salt's job is to actually bring the flavor out of food and pepper's job is to spice it up. Right. It's to make it like, Right. So what's different also about my model is actually looking at the, the secondary and the tertiary archetypes, your salt and your pepper and how do they play a role in, in creating this crescendo about your brand when it comes to the message, how you message your brand. So for example, I am a ruler dominant and then I am an explorer and a lover, salt and pepper, if you will. And so the explorer brand is about, you know, obviously freedom and no boundaries. But even more so it's about there is a map to get there and here's how you can follow it. You know, that kind of like feeling. And then the lover brand is about not just passion and intimacy, but it's about like no matter where I am, even if I'm speaking to you in a zoom room or I'm in, in a room with you in person, like we're going to be in posse fest together that you feel like I'm talking to you. Like the lover brand is about I see you no matter where you are. And so I work really hard on, in my messaging and my team and everybody who's like supporting that on, like, how are we making sure that we are really ultimately speaking through the ruler voice, but we're not forgetting the salt and the pepper because then now we become this full bodied meal, this messaging meal that people can go, I want to eat more of that. Right. And so I'm really excited because not only am I going to be sharing all this stuff at Posse Fest, like we're also going to give it to everybody who's listening. So whether or not you come to Posse Fest or not, like maybe you're listening to this a year after Posse Fest or whatever, you're going to be able to find out your dominant and your.

Yeah, I love that you said that because I, I teach the concept of brand archetypes in my brand Voice program and a big question that I get is like, do I just have to be one? And you explained it like so brilliantly. It's like there's a dominant but I already know too that I definitely have a bit of like the, the best friend. I don't know if that's an archetype, but like the best sort of that, that best friend archetype where it's like, hey, we're all in this together. Like we're the posse, like advocate, advocate. You belong here.

Yeah.

So I love the seasoning. And for everyone who's, who's listening, you can click the link in the description below and go and take Jen's assessment to find out what your dominant messaging archetype is and what your salt and your pepper archetype is and try it on for size. Like, like play around with it. And for those of you, you who you know don't have giant businesses or you're just getting started, let's say as a copywriter or another service based business, this trickles into everything you do. As Jen said, it's not just in how you're showing up on social media because I feel like that's what people tend to think of when they think of, of branding. It is in how you communicate. It is in, in truly everything that you do. So try it on for size and just. Yeah, let us know how it goes. Tell us what you get in the comments below. And then as Jen said at Posse Fest, she is going to be going deep into who her unique messaging model. Because archetypes is just one piece of that kind of branding puzzle. And Jen, I am so freaking excited for you to sprinkle your, your Filipina seasoning on everybody in the room at Posse Fest. And we'll put a link to possefest below so that you can grab your seat and if you're watching this after possefest, I'm so sorry you missed it, but there will be one again in the future and you can click below to learn more about that. Jen, thank you so much for being here and for sharing your wisdom. I. I'm honestly so fired up right now. I feel like this. This ignited something in me and I. I can't wait to explore this conversation further with you.

Oh my God. We're going to have so much fun. And I can't wait to meet so many of you at Posse Fest. I love Vancouver. I'm so glad that Alex is gathering us over there because. Because it's quite beautiful, especially at the fall. And again, like, if you like to geek out on all this stuff or now you're realizing this stuff is super geeky and fun, you're gonna be right with the right folks. So I can't wait. And I'm so, like, me too. I'm like, all lit up. I feel like I need to go for a run after this conversation as I lit up.

I love it. And if you enjoyed this interview, give us a thumbs up below. Tell Jen how much you enjoyed her wisdom. Definitely go take her assessment, let us know what you got and I will see all of you next week with a brand new video. And of course, those of you coming to Posse Fest, Jen and I cannot wait to see you there. Enjoy the rest of your week, everybody. Ciao for now. All right, guys, if you enjoyed that video, make sure to check out the next one from me right here. And you can click right here to get a free gift. How is branding shifting? Now that AI is hot on this scene, does branding even really matter anymore? Should you be building a personal brand or a corporate brand? How does your messaging and your content come into play when it comes to your branding? And what should you be focusing on most when you're in the beginning stages of building your brand? Listen, you guys, this interview was so freaking good. I sat down with Dane Walker, the CEO of Rival, a solid Australia's fastest growing branding agency, to answer all of these questions and so much more. It is a juicy interview, so keep watching.