Al Horford On His Amazing Career, Evolving His Game, Playing with Tatum, Battling LeBron and More

Welcome to The Old Man and the Three with JJ Redick and Tommy Alter, brought to you by 342 Productions. This is episode 152, Al Horford. Let me just say off the top, Al seems like and is a just a wonderful human being.

Yes.

That would be my most apt description of him.

This was very exciting for us. He does not do very many podcasts. I wouldn't— I would— did my asked him about this, asked Glushan about this. He's done one other podcast in his life, which was a Celtics-themed podcast the team puts on. But besides that, I think that's it. So this was special for us, and I think it's going to be special for the audience too.

Al is someone that I competed against for a number of years, have the utmost respect for him as a player, have heard wonderful things about him as a teammate and leader. And he told some great stories on the pod. We touch on a lot of things. Uh, I, I really particularly enjoyed, uh, hearing about his time with the Hawks, the team that he started his career with, number of playoff battles against LeBron and that 2015 Hawks team that was so special. Uh, we get into his evolution as a player, both defensively and offensively, and how it fits in within the greater context of the evolution within the NBA. And we also, of course, talk about this year's Celtics team. Tommy, we are recording this on Wednesday. They lost last night by 19 on the road, a game against the Wizards, playing without Bradley Beal. They had won 5 of 6. They hit a little rough patch there, but it looked like they were playing better, getting back to Mazzulla ball. And I think they missed an opportunity last night. We've talked about how— Yeah. How important the number one seed is in the East. Just being able to avoid a heavyweight matchup in the second round. And that's not a knock on Cleveland. I do think Cleveland is a great basketball team. And I, I'm particularly intrigued with any matchup with Cleveland. I would be especially with a Boston-Cleveland matchup, given that Cleveland has won 3 of 4 games against them during the regular season. We're set to enter a huge game Thursday night, Boston at Milwaukee. The they sit 3 games back right now, uh, and they're 2 games up in the loss column against Philadelphia. Still a chance to get the number 1 seed, but it does feel like we may be headed for a potential second round matchup of Boston versus Philly.

We talked a little bit about this with Legler when he came on, um, last week. He mentioned their assist rate dropping, uh, you know, in their last 15 games, they're 13th in offensive rating. They're 13th in offense, 2nd in defense, 4th in net. Besides Tuesday night against Washington, do you feel like the offense has been better over the last, you know, 6 or 7 games?

I felt like it had been. It had been better. You know, and I watched most of the game last night. I kind of turned it off towards the end when it was very clear that the Wizards were going to pull away and I switched over to the Cleveland-Atlanta game.— to watch the fourth quarter of that. But, you know, I will reiterate what I've said. I think for them to win a championship, Jason Tatum has to be able to make jumpers off the bounce. He has to be able to make jumpers off the dribble. They are finally healthy, which is good. That's going to take some time. I think to an extent, this next 6— these next 6 games are a chance to not only get guys rest, but, you know, it does sound like— Yeah. From talking to Joe Mazzulla, he felt like last season they gave guys rest towards the end of the regular season and they weren't ready and ramped up to take on the heavy load and minutes played that is required from your best players in the playoffs. So it'll be interesting to see how they manage that. What I'm interested to see is how they manage the rotations, particularly the front court rotations with Al Horford, who he's paired with throughout the game, whether it's Robert Williams or Grant Williams. Um, how much he plays alone at the 5, um, how much Brogdon plays with, uh, the starters and how much they go small. Um, Brogdon, by the way, uh, has been fantastic all season. Um, I know we've talked about the Sixth Man of the Year, but just to sort of update, uh, where we are at in that race, uh, Brogdon right now has the second best odds. Emmanuel Quickley is the odds-on favorite on DraftKings Sportsbook at -210. Brogdon at +150, our guy Bobby Portis all the way down at +4,000. It seems like it's turned into really a two-man race between Quickly and Brogdon. And to be honest with you, I gotta be honest, as much as I love Quickly, Brogdon has come off the bench in every game he's played this season. Quickly meanwhile has started in 17. I know he meets the criteria for six-man, but most of his biggest games are as a starter. His splits are very uneven when we talk about points per game, assists, shooting percentage, all that, as a starter versus a bench player. So by definition of sort of how I view the award, which is a guy that comes off the bench, to me, Brogdon is my favorite. I want to get your thoughts on that.

I agree with that. I mean, it, we, the game you called a couple of weeks ago in Boston, it's most of Quick's biggest games and they've been great. They've been great performances, but he's been starting and he's been playing, you know, 35, 40 minutes. And so it's, that does explain some of this. Brogdon and Horford are both shooting 44.7% from 3 right now, 3rd and 4th, are basically tied for 2nd in the league there. They were both over 45 for a lot of the year. There was a point where they were basically the only 2 guys with a minimum 100 threes taken shooting over 45%. Do you feel like, we've talked a ton about how good this team is, you know, just from beyond the arc in general. Do you feel like these two are, we know what we're gonna get from Jason, we know what we're gonna get from Jalen, but like, I don't wanna put the word X factor on it, but if they shoot like this, this is a very tough team to beat in general. They're a very tough team to slow down.

Yeah, there's an emphasis on 3-point shooting throughout the roster. They obviously have been 1 or 2 with Golden State in 3-pointers made and 3-pointers attempted all season. I think they're important. I think what's interesting about this team is when we talk about the playoffs and we talk about winning a championship, there are a number of players on their team, and most really good teams have this qualification. There's a number of players on this team that could swing a playoff game. We talk about the Milwaukee Bucks, right? Probably the best team in basketball, the best team in basketball all season. You know, a guy like Bobby Portis, the year they won the championship, you know, came in for Giannis who was hurt and he had a huge game in game 5 against Atlanta and helped close that series out. And so like a guy like Brogdon, Derek White, who I love, Rob Williams, you know, potentially on the defensive end, rebounding, offensive glass, like they have a bunch of guys that could swing a series. Grant Williams last year in game 7 against Milwaukee hit 7 threes. They elected to leave him open. And so I think that's the strength really of their team is not only do they have two stars, but they have a number of excellent role players. And the Bucks, to speak on them for a second, they're the same sort of makeup. They have guys like Grayson Allen, who is going to be really important because of his three-point shooting. He's a huge key to their offense in the half court. Brook Lopez, obviously. Bobby Portis. Pat Connaughton could be a guy that hits 3 or 4 threes in a half of a playoff game. Like these guys, these guys matter because you're going to spend so much time in the playoffs game planning for Giannis, game planning for Jrue, game planning for Tatum and Brown. And there's a reason that these two teams, the Bucks right now, plus 320 and Boston at plus 330. Are the two favorites to win the NBA championship this year. According to DraftKings Sportsbook, they're the two favorites. And I tend to agree with that. And of course, the third team right now is the Phoenix Suns, who I'm excited about to see at full strength because Kevin Durant's coming back tonight. But there's a reason. These two teams, we're on a collision course to see these guys in the Eastern Conference Finals. And I mean, give me 7 games of that. Yeah.

Are you surprised they haven't been able to utilize Mouscala a little bit more?

Well, I'm not, especially with Rob Williams back lately. And he had, Mouscala had played 15, 14 to 18 minutes there the first 5 or 6 games Rob Williams was hurt. I think that the truthfully, and this is not a knock on Mike, who's had a great season and was fantastic for much of the season when he was in Oklahoma City. I think the view on that was sort of an insurance, right? An insurance for Rob. You're gonna want Al Horford on the floor. You're gonna want Rob on the floor. You're gonna want Grant Williams on the floor. You know, Mike Muscala to me is an insurance policy for a long playoff run. And it's luxurious. I would describe it as like an Hermès handbag insurance policy, if that makes sense. That's how I view Mike Muscala.

Your backup handbag is an Hermès handbag. If you forget your first handbag, you have an Hermès.

Well, you know, you gotta start with You start with the vintage Chanel and then you get a Birkin. You know, it's all, that's the one-two, the one-two combo.

That makes, the last thing before we get to the interview is about Robert Williams. They're 21-9 with him in the lineup, but he's on this minutes restriction. And so I was going to ask about this when you were mentioning earlier about this, the Mazzulla conversation about ramping up, you know, versus like rest in terms of getting ready to the playoffs. This has been an ongoing thing for him, you know, over the last couple of years is just the, his on and off in terms of literally being on the court. So, like, how do you handle that with a guy like this who, you know, you need to keep him healthy? But, like, he wasn't a factor in the Wizards game on Tuesday. You know, I think he played 15 minutes. I'm not even sure he scored. And so, like, this is a guy that it feels like they need to be healthy to beat Milwaukee. Um, and he is technically healthy, but it's also like, how do you juggle that? You know, when you're, when they're sort of figuring this out over the next couple of weeks.

Well, I'm not going to put myself in the position of Joe Mazzulla or the Boston Celtics medical staff in terms of gauging how much he should or shouldn't be playing right now health-wise. You know, I think going back to what I was saying about their team and the makeup of their team, I view, the Milwaukee Bucks the same way. You know, there, you can play a number of ways and depending on your matchup in the playoffs, we saw that a great example of this is last year with the Memphis Grizzlies in the first round, you know, Carl Anthony Towns had a big game and then Steven Adams was basically on the bench for the rest of the series. Yeah. Knowing that there's, he's probably going to be back in the lineup for the following series. And I, that's again, could be the case this year. You know, as of right now, it's Minnesota, Memphis, second round or first round, and then potentially Sacramento with DeMonte Sabonis in the second round. And Steven Adams, if he's back in the lineup, will play a ton that series. So I think that's the luxury. And I don't, I look, I don't know Robert Williams. I don't know what kind of shape he's in or how he takes care of himself and how he ramps up. But I don't necessarily think the minutes played is a concern. I do, I think it's more about lineups and figuring out which lineups against which matchups are going to put you in the best position to be successful in each particular matchup in the playoffs. And that is the luxury of the Boston Celtics roster. The biggest tournament in college basketball is underway and the action is just getting started on DraftKings Sportsbook. DraftKings will be featuring parlays and odds boosts all tournament long. So be sure to check the DraftKings Sportsbook app every day to see what they have in store. Download the DraftKings Sportsbook app now and sign up with code JJ. Right now, new customers can bet $5 on any pregame moneyline bet and get $150 in bonus bets if your team wins. Only at DraftKings Sportsbook with code JJ. Minimum age and eligibility restrictions apply. See show notes for details. Uh, let's get to our conversation with two-time NCAA national champion. We did talk about that too. Uh, from the Florida Gators, Atlanta Hawk, Philadelphia 76er, also touched on that, and Boston Celtic. Also, he was on the Thunder for a brief period of time. Al Horford.

Let's get to it.

All right, let's welcome in Boston Celtic Al Horford. Al, I feel like I can't believe we've done 150 episodes of this and we've never had you on. Competed against you for years. Mad respect. It's a real pleasure to finally get you on the show. Thank you for doing this.

Thank you for having me, man. I'm a big fan of yours over the years, and I'm glad to be here today.

We were almost teammates, Al. We were almost teammates. What could have been? What could have been? Tommy, I don't know if I've told this story, but Al and I ran into each other during the bubble. It was actually a cool— the bubble experience was cool because I got to hang out with people that I normally, you know, guys I'd never played with. You, uh, Melo, who, you know, I competed against in high school. I had dinner with Westbrook one night. Like, having conversations with you guys was like a really enlightening experience. But one of the things you mentioned to me, you were on Philly at the time, and I was like, I was like, "Oh man." I was like, "I wish I'd gotten the chance to play with you." And you told me, you were like, "No, I was under the impression that you were gonna stay. That was part of the reason I signed with Philly." Yeah, yeah.

That was, you know, that whole summer was a lot going on, a lot of things coming fast. But yeah, one of the things that, that I thought was going in there, that we were gonna be teammates. And, you know, I love playing with, you know, with guys that can shoot the ball. And I played with Kyle earlier, Kyle Korver earlier in Atlanta, and thinking that I was gonna play with you, I was, you know, I was pretty excited about that and just didn't work out. Yeah.

What could have been. What could have been.

It makes sense. Makes sense now.

It's such a, it's a circuitous route back to Boston that you took, which we will get to. We just had Damian Lillard on last week, and it's always fun for me and our listeners to sort of get the perspective of older players that have been in the league for a while. And have seen the evolution of the game, of the league, and Dame had some great thoughts on what has changed within the NBA in his, in his career. For you, what are some observations that you have about the league, where we're at, what has changed both on the court and off the court over the course of your career?

Yeah, so, You know, when I first came into the league, the way the game was being played, it's obviously completely different, more of a post-up game. You know, we were starting to take threes at a good amount, but that wasn't the priority, the focus. It was very traditional, two bigs still playing and things like that, obviously. And obviously things started to change, the Rockets, Steph shooting threes and and that all, you know, became that. And the state of the league today, the way that I see it, I feel like it has to do with kind of like how you look at our society and kind of how it is and, you know, the expectations and the— you know, I feel like now people want immediate success. You know, people want things to happen fast. Want them to happen like right away, right now. And there's not a lot of patience for developing, for guys to get a chance to get experience. Everything is— it's being done in a different way than, you know, than when I first came into the league. And it is pretty impressive, the talent level. — that is in this league now, year to year, the number of guys who are coming in and at the level that they're coming in. You know, I feel like, you know, I'll use myself as an example, but, you know, I had to kind of work my way to get to the position that I'm in. And a lot of these guys are coming in and they already have their offensive game pretty figured out. They're coming in with high skill, with high level. And they continue to elevate the game. So it's been pretty impressive to see a lot of the young guys to come, being able to come in and have, uh, such an impact, uh, right away.

I wanna follow up, uh, with a, a thought, uh, something that maybe you're getting at, and that's just the continuity within teams. 'Cause I think you're talking about the societal expectations, whether that's, uh, the hot take culture or NBA Twitter or. What we do on television every day. And I think that sort of is new. It's a new thing for our generation. Certainly there was sports radio that existed in the late '80s and '90s, but our generation of player has had to deal with a different thing. The thing that I want to touch on, the patience you're talking about, there's some level, I think, within a team within an organization, within a front office, where I don't think they allow groups to have continuity and have time together the way that they did. Look, if Stockton and Malone— maybe this is a hot take, I don't know— but I think if Stockton and Malone had had a career in the 2010s and 2020s, there's a good chance they break them up at some point. And I think that's a big shift that has happened over the past 16, 17 years.

Yeah, I think that's fair to say and to view. And obviously it's because of the expectations and the pressures of being in the NBA and wanting to win. That's something that I see it as well.

I was gonna ask about Jason and Jaylen to this point. Now, you know, you, when you got to Boston, they were arriving, you know, Jaylen got there the same year you got there, Jason the year after. Their maturity at such a young age is rare. I mean, obviously they're incredible talents, but was that something that you were surprised by when you met them? You know, both when you started playing with them, but even when you just met them just as dudes?

Yeah, yeah, I was very surprised when Jaylen came in. Just hearing him talk, just seeing kind of his vision, what he was about, is something that really surprised me. I'm like, man, this guy is 19, 20 years old and he's already seeing things so clearly and he knows what he wants. He knows what he's trying to accomplish. Obviously he needs to figure it out on the court, but just as a person, you know, just very— put together. And Jason was the same way. Jason came in and it's kind of like an old soul, you know, like he just— from Summer League, like as soon as I saw him playing in Summer League, how poised he was, right away I was like, man, this guy is different, you know. And it was one of those things that I was just very— Just very impressed with him, with his demeanor, how he kept his cool and how he went about the season. He may, he might, he might have not felt that way, but that's the way that he, that, you know, that he came off as.

It's a great point, Tommy, because I've always been, both those guys, I've always been struck by their maturity, their confidence, their poise, all that stuff. Jason in particular, I was really impressed with when we had him on the show last year. And since the All-Star break, he's had some rough shooting games. He's had some rough shooting stretches and he's had some really enlightening quotes about just the ups and downs of the season. When you see him sort of going through a rough stretch, does his demeanor change at all? Does his approach change at all?

Man, it's impressive because he's, like we've talked about, he's mature beyond his years, but His demeanor does not change. He stays the same way. He's putting in the work every day like he needs to. He's taking care of his body. He's doing everything he has to do to prepare. And he's as consistent as they come. And to me, that's impressive 'cause, you know, earlier in my career when I was younger, you know, you go through a stretch and you get to feeling down on yourself and maybe you don't want to do everything you've been doing leading up to, and you're trying to figure things out. And he's not like that. You know, he stays locked in. He wants to play every game if he possibly can. And he's all about, you know, just continuing to work. He's working, he's trying to figure things out, and he's figuring it out on the fly. So it's pretty impressive to see how he handles himself.

You mentioned Steph Curry and the Houston Rockets and the proliferation of 3-point shooting as a big change on the court in your time in the NBA. And I was actually looking up some of your— I wouldn't call them advanced stats, but I spent a good amount of time today on Basketball Reference. And the young guys who watch the NBA, the young fans may not remember the prolific mid-range shooter that was Al Horford in the mid-2000s, in the early 2010s. And in 2015, you, you shot a career high. 3.7% of your shots were threes. You're now at 65.9% of your shots are threes. And there was actually a jump there from '15 to '16 where you would take in 0.5, 0.4 threes a game, whatever. And all of a sudden in '16, you took over 3 threes a game. Was there someone in your ear about this? Did you naturally sort of develop the 3-point shot and you said, ah, maybe I can extend? Like, I'm very curious about this evolution. Of yourself as a shooter?

So when I, when I first got in the league, uh, I never dreamed of shooting threes. Uh, and I, and I've talked about this, but, um, I used to watch Joe Johnson, uh, you know, take threes and I was like, man, like it's, it's unbelievable. It seems so far, like there's just no way. And, um, uh, my first few years in the league, I was straight post-up player. I shot some mid-range, but it was, I had a very physical game and I was an undersized center. You know, I'm an undersized center if you look at it. And I got injured in 2011. That was the— or sorry, 2012, beginning of 2012. That was that lockout year and that we had that condensed season. And I remember at the time with the Hawks, Rick Sund was our GM and, you know, he sat me down probably a month after the surgery. And he said like, listen, you know, the way that you're playing the game, it's, you know, you wanna play physical, you wanna bang down low. But he was like, your body's not gonna hold up. And he was like, I, I've seen you shoot the ball. I feel like you can shoot, you could shoot the corner 3. And he was like, he had Sam Perkins in Seattle, I believe it was. And he was like, that extended his career. He was able to play a little longer. And I think you should start working on that. And I was like, okay, yeah, you know, we'll see. And I, and I, when I started coming back, I started working on the corner threes a little bit. And then we went through a transition in Atlanta where Danny Ferry came in, Coach Budenholzer came in and his staff, and Kenny Atkinson was one of the assistants that worked with me. And between Coach Bud and Kenny Atkinson, they really gave me the confidence to shoot the threes. They wanted me to shoot 'em from everywhere. They wanted me to be aggressive. And I had two teammates that were, they were key for me. And it was Kyle Korver. They always encouraged me early on when it was like, you know, when other teams would see me shoot threes, they're like, what is he doing? Like, you know, because it just wasn't something that, it didn't look natural. Like it was, you know, just wasn't used to it. So in game, so Kyle was always encouraging me. And then Pero Antic, I don't know if you remember him. No. So he played with us in in Atlanta for a few years. And Pero, you know, I used to watch Pero, like I would just sit in practice and watch him after, just seeing him shoot shot after shot. And he just wasn't afraid to let him go. And I'm just looking at him and I'm like, man, if he can do it, I think I can too. So that was key for me to have that support around me and give me that confidence. Mm-hmm. And then, you know, at that point, when you have a coach that trusts in you and that gives you confidence, that was all I needed. And from that point on, you know, I just started shooting them more and more and my confidence grew.

We should note Al is shooting 45.3% as of this recording right now. I put a jinx on Derek White when he was on the podcast.

I'm gonna—

Yeah, Celtics fans were not happy. No, no, following.

There's no jinx here. I'm just pointing out his percentage. That's all I'm doing. I'm talking about the growth of Al Horford as a 3-point shooter. That's all. You know, it's interesting that you, you bring up the importance of Bud in this. And not that Brook— Brook started shooting 3s a little bit before he went to Milwaukee, but I do find that sort of connection and correlation fascinating that Bud had such an influence on that, giving you confidence. And now what, you know, we see Brook, uh, obviously still mashes a little bit in the post and on the offensive glass, but he is a spacer and that's so important for their offensive sets with Giannis having the basketball. I'm very curious about your shooting form and how you learned because your guide hand is in a place that I don't think anyone would ever naturally teach someone to shoot. And I mean no offense by that.

Yeah. Yeah. No, no, that's, and it's funny. I, so I learned how to shoot, like I started shooting Growing up in DR, in Dominican, I was there until I was 14. And you know, we used to shoot and I didn't really know how to shoot that well per se. And when I moved to the US, a good friend of our family, he's a basketball coach and he's teaching me how to shoot. And it always, for whatever reason, I always started grabbing the ball that way. And it always used to bother him a lot. And he's like, listen, you gotta move that left hand out of there and do it like this. And he's trying to show me how to do it. And I just kept going to it naturally. It wasn't like I was trying to do it on purpose, but like, I just kind of kept, you know, moving that, that hand over. And for many years since then, different coaches, different people have tried to have me move it. And from time to time I do move it, but, uh, for whatever reason, that just kind of stuck with me. And that's just, that's just kind of how I shoot it. And I just try to make sure that I don't get it in the way too much.

It's a gentle touch. It's a gentle guide hand touch.

45%. The numbers don't Oh, Al, I, speaking of Kenny Atkinson, I saw a quote he gave about you last year where he compared you to Nolan Ryan. Um, and he said that he thinks you could play until you're 45. I don't know, you know, whether you're going to want to do that, but my, my question for you is more what you were talking about bigs in general. Like when you talk to younger bigs in the league now, do you feel like being able to stretch the floor like you do or like Brook does is a necessity for them to, you know, to extend their careers by a couple years?

I believe so. Not only extending their careers, but in reality, to, you need to do whatever you can to stay relevant in this game. And the way that it has changed in the last, in the last 10 years, it's unimaginable. And to be a big and to be able to be in this game and make an impact and be on the floor, You know, you, you kind of have to be able to do, do it all, but you have to be able to space. You have to be able to be a threat, uh, to shoot the ball. Um, and, and that's just the way that the game is and it's going to keep evolving and, and the guys that can't put it together, it's going to be, they're going to be very limited.

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Download Smart News for free today in the App Store to get the news that matters most. Search for it in the Apple App Store for your iPhone or iPad, or Google Play Store for Android users. Your news, your way. Discover the all-in-one app that delivers the information you need to live smarter. The other, I think, piece for a big is the ability to switch, which again is a big change in your career. Trying to think when you first came in, because we were back-to-back drafts. I think Denver in like '08, '09 started switching a lot with Kenyon Martin and Melo and Nene. Switching was not really a thing, and now switching is so prevalent across the board. I, I had a, uh, I had two of your games a couple weekends ago, back to back, and in the Brooklyn game, down the stretch, they were trying to manipulate pick and rolls with Dinwiddie or Mikal Bridges to get you switched onto them, which I thought was interesting because at the time, I don't know what you are right now, but at the time you were top 10 in opponent field goal percentage in the NBA. And I had sort of flashback PTSD about all the times that I got targeted down the stretch of games. But when that, when that's sort of happening, knowing in your mind, like, I'm a good defender, what's going through your mind?

Yeah, no question about it. But it's one of those things that, What was going through my mind, it's like, well, I have to take on this challenge and I get mad about that. And it's like, well, I'm gonna lock in even more and make sure that, you know, this guy's not scoring on me and I'm gonna do whatever I can. You know, there's an edge that you need to have in those moments. And it's something that I embrace. Being in that position, the good thing about our group is that, you know, we do a really good job in making sure that guys don't feel like they're on an island, you know?

Yes.

And I think that's important when you get caught in those positions. And like you said, you were probably put in those positions, but I'm sure you felt better when, you know, you had somebody in your ear saying, "Hey, to the right, I'm here." And we have, you know, our guys, Jason Tatum actually does as good of a job with that that I've seen. And, and I get caught out there sometimes and he gives me comfort 'cause he's talking behind me, or Marcus Smart is right there next to me saying, hey, send them this way, I got you. So having guys around you and having your defense engaged really, really makes it easier.

Well, Brad put me in a lot of those positions in our playoff series in 2018. I was like, Jesus, man, does it have to be every possession?

I need a possession.

I was going to ask you about that with Tatum because he was a rookie. And I mean, talk about poise in that particular series.

Yeah. I mean, here, so look, I'm going to get a little defensive here for a second. Al, I'm sorry. Let me bear with me. So we, we go to game 1 in Boston and Lloyd Pierce before the game says to me, you're checking Tatum tonight. And Tatum was coming off a pretty big series against the Bucks. So I'm like, cool, cool. And I had played that year because Ben really wasn't able to guard point guards at that point in his career. And obviously by the time he left Philly, he guarded every position. So a lot of the times that year I was starting on point guard. Like I would start on Damian Lillard, I would start on John Wall, I'd start on Westbrook. And so he was like, you're on Tatum. And I'm like, all right, whatever, no big deal. So Tatum has 28 that game, and I get to the meeting the next morning, and Lord Pierce was like, just so you know, like, you're gonna get killed by the Philly media today for your defense. And I'm like, really? And so I like went back and I looked at the tape, and he had 10 on me, and he shot an airball on one possession on an iso. Like, I was like, I thought I battled— I mean, given the size disadvantage, I thought I battled him. But no, no, I got, I got killed for all of it. It was funny, that series, because I was like, every time I was on the floor with Marco Bellinelli, I was like, thank fucking God there's someone else they can target.

No, but I mean, that, that's, that's the crazy thing, right? Like, you know, it wasn't necessarily on you, but the fact that the matchup was like that is perceived that it's like that. So that, that, that's always frustrating when you see that.

You're playing, you're You're playing game 3 of that series at the end. Remember the, the game where Marko hit the, the game-tying corner shot? Yes. That whole game was, was completely insane.

Yeah. Yeah. No, no. That, that game was, that, that was wild because it was one of those games that it was just a lot of back and forth. And, and we get to that point, we actually were able to take the lead, I believe. Jalen hits, you know, inbounds play, gets it in, and then you know, we're, we think we're good. And then, you know, all of a sudden it was a great ATO. Belinelli gets that look. I actually was, you know, I happened to see that he stepped on the line because, you know, you guys acted like the game was over. The confetti, the confetti went off. Yeah, the confetti went off. A lot of the guys were like running into the tunnel, like in the locker room and everything. And, but like, we saw that, you know, that he stepped on the line and then, you know, everything changed. But, but yeah, it was one of those games that it's like game 3 was so pivotal because you guys win that game. It's a completely different series. And you know, for us, it was like we needed to get that game in particular. And obviously that, that, you know, that helped us with the series.

Yeah. So many what-ifs, so many what-ifs for me in that series. Oh man. My turnover at the end of regulation of game 3. We're up 20, we're up like 21 in game 2 in the second quarter. And fucking Greg Monroe comes in the game randomly. And it's like a 5-point game at halftime. He just, Greg Monroe rattled off 10 straight points.

Yeah, I know for sure. And, and you, you had some good looks there in game 5 too.

Game 5, there was a TJ McConnell had a, I, he, he drove baseline, hit me with a diagonal pass on the left wing. I think we were up 2 with about a minute 10 to go. Yeah. Ended up short. And yeah, I mean, I think about that shot as well. Thanks for bringing that up, Al.

Al, do you think I, I remember I was at game 2 of that series. I just thought this, just being in the arena, the Boston crowd does make a difference, right? It does feel like compared to other, I mean, every, there's a lot of good fan bases.

I mean, you, you can ask JJ. I tell you my personal take going against them when I was in Atlanta and being in Boston. Yes. I believe they make a big, a huge difference. And it's not many crowds can do that, but the Boston fans, they, they have that effect. The Garden has that effect.

Here's my thing. I don't think Boston Celtics fans need any more gas, need any more confidence, need any more sense of self or worth. But I will admit, we were actually discussing this last night during the broadcast, not on air, but during a timeout. We were talking about the best, the best road arenas, essentially the best places to play on the road. And we mentioned a few of them. But I agree with you, Al. I think as a road player, I played Boston 3 times in the playoffs, '09, '10, '18. It's the best crowd. It's the best crowd.

Fuck.

And like you, I mean, I played them when they won in '08.

Yes, yes.

That's right. And just being there like you were, and you were there in '09, you saw, you know, how crazy that crowd is. Like, I mean, I just remember like I had, as an opponent, like I had goosebumps before the game. Like, you know, I, I was so excited to be part of that environment. Like, um, just very few places in the NBA that, that I feel like get to that, that level.

I, again, in my deep dive on Basketball Reference today, um, I didn't realize that you personally had lost to LeBron and the Cavs 5 times in the playoffs. And so I was once with the Hawks in '09, twice, I may be wrong on this, but twice with the Hawks in '15 and '16, and then '17 and '18 with the Celtics. We've asked this question before, but I'm always fascinated by the answers. The difficulty of beating LeBron in the Eastern Conference, what made it so hard?

Man, he, He just had another gear that I feel like individually, you know, you couldn't reach that level that he got to. And you know, when he beat us in Boston, Jason Tatum's rookie year, that we took him to 7, that was the only one, the series that I played against him, that it was competitive in that regard. 'Cause everything else, he just dominated the teams that I was in. I remember that I was probably in the best shape that I've been in my career. And I share the story with, you know, with some of the guys when, you know, when we're talking and it was game 7, about 4 minutes to go in the 4th quarter. It was still a very close game and we're getting out of the timeout and I'm looking at Marcus Morris. I'm looking at Jayson Tatum. Jalen, Terry, myself, we're gassed. We're, I mean, it's Game 7. We're giving everything we have. I'm in great shape and I'm still like, you know, just very tired from the game. And I look at the other side and he's, uh, sitting kind of like in the scorer's table, kind of like just kind of leaning very casual. He's played the whole, every single minute up to that point. And he looked unfazed. He looked unbothered. And to me, that was disturbing. The fitness level, the conditioning that he's in, I think it's something that people don't realize how good of a shape he's in. And also just that gear that he kicks it to. I mean, there's just— it's not a lot of people that can do that. And, you know, there's a reason why he's, you know, he's one of the greats.

That team in '18 too, that was the non-Kyrie team, right? Kyrie was with you guys, obviously was hurt at the end of that season and not able to play in the playoffs. So he's essentially has the ball and is manipulating every single offense possession. That's the other part of this is like he's playing every minute and he's doing it every minute.

And the only thing too, the other thing too was that we had so many different bodies we were throwing at him. We had Marcus Morris on him, we had Jason on him, we had Jalen on him. Smart, myself being physical, playing hard, thinking that that would kind of wear on him throughout the game. And, and this guy was still standing strong, you know, at the end of the game. Obviously some of his teammates came in, stepped up, made some plays, but he played that game every single minute. I believe of that Game 7.

You've played on a bunch of awesome teams. Obviously went to the Finals last year, that 2015 Hawks team. How special was that group?

That was a special group. That was, that was, that was such a fun group to, to be a part of. Uh, I'm just the, or the group of guys that we had, so unselfish. Um, you know, coming into practice every morning, it was, it was joyful. You know, you, you enjoyed being around each other. Um, Like once we figured out how we needed to play, and a lot of people don't know, but that year I was coming off of an injury and it took me a while to get going. And I remember that the group was already there. They were already, you know, where they needed to be. And we started that year a little shaky. And once I, you know, I was able to get healthy enough and get my legs underneath me, then, you know, we kind of took off. But the, the biggest thing about that group was we were just a very connected group, very unselfish. We had a lot of leaders and, and vets on that team. Paul Millsap, Kyle Korver, Elton Brand, Damari Carroll, um, Jeff Teague. We, we just had so many guys that were all about the right things. You look at that roster up and down. Mm-hmm. And everyone knew their roles. Everybody knew what they needed to do. And, and nobody tried to do more than they needed to. It was all about buying into what we were trying to do as a team. And everybody was defending, defending hard, playing well. It was about as fun as I've had since I've been in the NBA.

I'll note you guys were 28-2 in December and January. Undefeated in January, 17-0. And you, somebody's gonna fact check me on this, but I believe the first time in league history that a team's starting five was named Player of the Month. Yeah.

Yeah. But see, that went to show the type of team that we had, right? Because it wasn't about one guy in particular, like different guys were stepping up here and there. And, and it was one of those things that, You know, whether it was Paul that was leading the way or Kyle leading the way, it just didn't matter. Um, and, and it was, it was a collective effort. So I, I thought that was pretty cool. And, and I don't think there's, there has, there has been any, anybody else with the, with the 5 guys being player of the month. And I don't think, honestly, I don't think there's going to be another, another team like that.

I, Tommy, I looked it up. I, the only thing I could find was at some point, I think early 2000s, Steve Nash, Michael Finley, and Dirk were named Players of the Month collectively. But that's 3 guys, not 5 guys.

I was going to add, this is probably a question for both of you, but Al, you played before, before the Finals last year, you'd played 141 playoff games. And then obviously 147 by the end of the Finals. Is there a, is there a common denominator, do you think, with the different teams you've been on and what what makes a team that's sort of ready for the playoffs? Because you guys have both been on, so you've been in so many different situations with good teams.

Yeah, I think, I think it has to do with the, you know, the team, how, how the team is able to come, come together and, and, and play, develop that identity and, and be able to carry that out consistently. And in the teams that I've been in, Usually what, you know, we want to be, we want to play unselfish. We want to be really good defensively. And those are like the two things that I find myself, especially on the defensive end. If you defend, if you're able to defend at a high level, you're going to give yourself a good chance. And I believe that the teams that I've been a part of usually making the playoffs, if you're a good defensive team, you know, you they, it puts you in a good position to make the playoffs.

Yeah, I like the word identity. I like that word a lot. And I think especially early on, if your identity was stronger, your will, your mental toughness, your collectiveness, I think that mattered. It made you ready. But my Orlando teams, like we had an identity. There was a, we were gonna, we were top 5 defensive team every year. We were going to play 4 out.

Dwight was going to roll a bunch of threes.

We shot a bunch of, you know, if you look at it now, we'd be like last in the league in 3-point attempts. But at the time, we shot a lot of threes. We had shooting. I think now all that stuff matters. It certainly matters. I think having versatile defenders matters. And of course, what matters is if you have a top 5 fucking player, because Generally speaking, those guys are the guys that are gonna win and get to the conference finals and get to the finals.

No, no, you're, you're absolutely right about that. There are other things that, that come into mind, but yeah, you know, you gotta have historically that, that, that's kind of how it is. And, and that's like, you couldn't sum it up any better than that.

I mean, you, we, a perfect example of that. We were just talking about that 2015 team. Going up against LeBron and the Cavs in the conference finals. Obviously Kyle got hurt. So I'm not discrediting y'all, but you guys, LeBron was too good. And this, I'm curious, I actually wanted to ask you about this. Is there a peak LeBron? Like, is there a version of LeBron, whether it was early LeBron? Because you, you've played against him sort of in every, every facet of his career and played against him in the playoffs in all these different eras of LeBron's career. Do you think that there's a peak LeBron?

Yes. I believe that it was probably his last 2 years in Miami. And when he went back to Cleveland, those first 2 years. So like that 4-year period, I believe that's when he was, he's still unbelievable, but that's, that I believe that's when he was at his peak. Um, those last 2 years in Miami and the first 2 in Cleveland.

I've, I've actually never heard, never heard somebody combine the 2 teams, but I actually, I think that makes a lot of sense. What he figured out in Miami mentally, basketball IQ, he always had it, but learning how to win at that high level and then going to Cleveland still in probably prime athlete athletic years. Um, the accumulation of skill. I think that's probably the best answer I've heard to that question.

Do you think, Al, was game 4 against Milwaukee your favorite personal playoff moment?

It was very special to me. The one that I have to say that I really enjoyed and it was just very emotional was we played the Wizards in 2015 in the playoffs in the second round in Atlanta. And I believe it was a, it was game 5 against the Wizards that I hit a, I got a putback with about a second or 2 to go. And we were able to win that game. That game to me was very meaningful. Very, very special. It was a very emotional game, a back and forth game. John Wall, Bradley Beal, they had a great team. Nene, Gortat, and and we, we were just in a battle with those guys. But that game, that Game 5, um, was very special. Uh, the Milwaukee one was, was, was good as well. But for me personally, I, I'd have to say that.

That series, just sign me up, sign me up. I need 7 games this year. Make it happen, Al. Just as a basketball fan, I need a repeat. I need Milwaukee healthy. I need Rob Williams back. I need a repeat of that series. Make it happen. All right.

Amen.

That was a grind. That series was tough. After that, I remember we had like a day to travel to Miami and get ready to play the Heat. And it was like, we literally get a day. That's like the only thing that I was like, NBA, like, you know, you have to, you have to be better than this. Like, you know, a team finish a series like that, you gotta give the team, no matter who it is, you gotta give them more than a day of a travel day to get ready to play that next series.

For, for like a casual fan, you know, watching this or listening to this, can you explain how you can go from defending Giannis on like a Thursday to having to check Steph like the following Tuesday?

Yeah, man. Like it, it, it's one of those things that to JJ made this point, like you need versatile defenders. And, uh, one of the things with our group, um, is that we have guys that can guard multiple positions and, and, and And, and, you know, and it's like with, you know, you play a certain way, certain style. Milwaukee demands for you to play a more physical style with, obviously with Giannis, the amount of pressure he puts on the basket and everything. And then, you know, then you have to go out there and move your feet and, and chase Steph around and Klay and, and do your best.

Can you describe as best you can to an NBA fan, an observer, it, it is intuitive that it would get harder, but just how the intensity from round to round increases the amount of mental focus. You used the term locked in earlier. Mm-hmm. The amount of mental focus required and just the idea that with each round the group feels more and more battle-tested, as does the opponent.

Yeah, no question. Um, and, and the best example for me, and, and then I'll, I'll get into that. It's, we played Brooklyn last year in the first round, and that series was very physical. It was very intense. Um, we swept them, but it didn't feel like a sweep. It was a very hard-fought series. Then we go to play Milwaukee in the second round. In that very first game, there's a different level of physicality. There's a different level of focus, to your point, that happens. And it, it almost like we, we got hit, like we just got hit in the face and we didn't know what happened. They came out, it, it, the, there was like a level from the first round to the second round. And I've been in the playoffs before. But you could feel it. You could definitely feel it. And for the average fan, the regular season, obviously you play the games, you do what you have to do. The playoffs, the intensity is just completely different. And as you, the further you go mentally, the more challenging it becomes. There's a lot more emotion. The physicality obviously kicks up. But the level of it by each round, it just gets magnified and it makes your team, it gets everything tighter. It makes you stronger. But it's a different challenge. It really is. And there's regular season basketball or any sort of other, it just doesn't compare to that playoff intensity.

We spoke with Steph in November and got his perspective on Game 4 of the Finals and didn't really get a chance to talk with Derek about it when he was on the show. And just wanted to get your thoughts on that game because it felt like, I think that even though I'm not talking about the specific moment of 91-86, I think there was 5 minutes to go., but it felt like there were times in that game where I was like, okay, Boston's gonna win. Boston's gonna be the champion. Uh, and then Steph somehow, you know, willed them back. But that game, even though it was just a, you know, even the series, it felt like the turning point of that series.

Ah, no, you're, you're, you're absolutely right. Um, you know, that game, uh, obviously for us, being in that position for the first time, having those opportunities, to what we were talking about, there was just a lapse for our group that we just couldn't finish that stretch run there. But also, there's credit to Steph and what he did. What he did was pretty unbelievable. The— The Garden, such a hostile place like we talked about, and for him to be able to go in there and, and kind of take over that game in those moments. Once he did that, I remember that when we went back in the locker rooms, the way that I heard them celebrate as a team winning that game, at that moment, it felt like they felt like they won the championship. That's how hard they were celebrating after just the game. It was 2-2. You know what I'm saying? And the way that I just remember hearing them and seeing them, the excitement, going back to their locker room, and the locker rooms in the Garden are pretty close to each other. And hearing them with that level and that excitement, it was like, this just wasn't, they just didn't win just one game. For them, this was something else. Yeah. And I felt like they really, in my opinion, I felt like they were, you know, they were, like you said, they were about to be done. And the fact that they got that new life, that kind of propelled them.

That's a, that's a good way to put it. You kind of just shat on the regular season, which I, I get what you're saying. 'Cause I, I, I, I, I will co-sign that there is an intensity level to a regular season game and, By and large, look, there are players that probably take it easy on certain nights, but I think the majority of guys go out, try to execute a game plan. I know being courtside a bunch of times this year calling games, it's remarkable to me. Maybe it's just because it's a nationally televised game. I don't know. But it's remarkable to me how hard teams play. Like I did Steph's game last night where he had 50 and I made a comment on there. I'm like, fuck, man, the Clippers are doing a great job. It's just next-level shot-making. But one thing about the, the regular season, because of the length, because of 82 games, because of injuries, because of ebbs and flows and rhythm, there's naturally going to be ups and downs. And I think players, we can react to that or not react to that. Certainly fans react to that. Media reacts to that. Yeah. Do you think the ups and downs of the regular season, the emotional part of it and the mental part of it, do you think that actually prepares you for the playoffs?

So let me go back when I meant about the levels and—

Oh, you don't need to clarify anything now. I was only fucking with you, dude.

Yeah, no, no, but, but I'll just say this. I mean, obviously we play hard in the regular season, but what I mean is in the playoffs, the mental,— the focus, the, that level of, of, of play that, that everything is, everything means more, everything, it's more, you know, you're more determined. But does the regular season help you for the playoffs? In that sense, I, I think it, it helps teams, you know, be— Honestly, I think it's like a great practice. You know, the regular season, it, it's obviously it's important. But, you know, the more cohesive you can be in the regular season, the more you can come together and play a certain way and establish yourself. Yes. Once the playoffs come through, that's going to help you tremendously.

I think too, there's an element of, of time and focus that is so different between the regular season and the playoffs. You're in a series, you've got one team. Usually have a couple days prior to a series to get your binders. I don't know if you guys still do binders, but every playoffs I was ever in, we got binders. Every play, scouting report on every guy. Every single morning you're doing scout, you know, individual scouting reports, wings, guards, bigs, whatever. The nuance of a game plan in the playoffs is much different. Where you're able to just completely lock in on play tendencies, players' tendencies. The reality is it's just really hard to do that in an 82-game regular season with travel, with back-to-backs, and especially with the way that, that the schedule is now where you're essentially playing every other day, not a lot of practice time. So I totally agree with you. Like, the mental part of locking in where you might spend on a shootaround day of a regular season game, you might spend 30 minutes, maybe 15 sometimes, going over a game plan and then a quick edit right before you go out for warmups. That gets multiplied 5, 10-fold for one playoff game.

Uh, yeah. You know, that's the reality of it. There's that aspect of it. And there's also the aspect of, you know, the mindset as a team and how you need to play and obviously what you're trying to accomplish and bringing it together. And everything is just, you know, it's a little, it's magnified. You guys are, you know, one of the few few teams that made it, people are paying more attention to you. And there's also, you know, the pressure, you know, that comes with it too. And all that stuff that I personally enjoy being a part of.

What do you think makes Marcus Smart so effective?

Competitiveness, uh, just, he's a competitor. Um, uh, and he, he's a guy that That's very savvy. And that just his competitive nature, I feel like that's what makes him so effective. He's not going to back down to anyone. He's not afraid, not afraid of any moment. He's not afraid of any player. He can guard 1 through 5. So him, when he's competitive in that way and he's just doing what he does, you know, he's just out there and getting free reins to do whatever. That's what makes them so tough in my eyes.

You mentioned versatile defenders. We talked about that. Marcus is one of them. You guys have a bunch of them. Your 3-point attempt rate this year, makes and attempts, second in the league to Golden State for pretty much the whole season. Not without some ups and downs. This year, especially lately, but this year's team, the best version of that, when you guys are at your best, what does that look like? What does that feel like?

It feels like, um, offensively we're playing fast. Uh, we're playing fast. We're getting up and down the floor. Um, uh, the ball, and you hear this term all the time, the ball's not sticking. Uh, the ball is moving and, and we're just moving. Uh, as soon as it touches somebody, uh, you're either shooting it or they're creating an action. Um, but we're just playing fast, getting out in transition, moving that pace. Um, when we're playing like that, it just, it just changes everything. And then defensively, you know, really locking down. Yeah. Individually, um, and that, that's one of our strengths that our guys are able to guard, uh, a lot one-on-one. Um, and when we're able to do that, but, but the biggest one is offensively when we're flying around and when we're playing with pace, it's, uh, I feel like that's when we're at our best.

This is a, uh, change of subject a little bit, but I was going to ask this earlier and then we, we were talking about something different. Do you have a favorite Joakim? Noah, story?

Oh man. So I have several stories. My favorite one with Joakim was we were in Florida in our dorms and there was a hurricane coming through. And a lot of the students, you know, got to go home and things like that. We couldn't get out of there, so we had to stay. In our dorm room and our freshman year, him and I shared a room together. And we are— our suitemates were Corey Brewer and Torian Green, our point guards. So it was the 4 of us in a, like a 2-bedroom kind of suite. And the storm was coming through. They shut everything down on campus. We didn't have cars or anything. And the only thing that was open was, it was called Gator Diner. So it's this, the food place where we used to go eat. And it was about, I don't know, maybe half a mile from our place. And the storm hit that morning. We didn't have any food in our place. And it was pretty windy, trees falling all over the place. Like, it was just crazy. And, you know, we were starving. Like, we literally had no food. And it was, you know, we slept in. It was like 10 in the morning. Like, we kind of stay all day. And then by like 4 or 5 in the afternoon, we're like starving. We're hungry. And Corey and Torian, it's the middle of the storm. They're like, we're not going outside. Like, that's just not happening. Like, I don't care. We'll starve. We're not going to go out and get some food. So like, Joe and I were like, hey, let's risk it. Let's just go out there and— Yeah. See if we can make it to Gator Diner. You know, we're gonna starve here and let's, let's see what happens. So like we put a bunch of clothes on and we're walking down the middle of the street. I believe he grabbed his boombox. So he used to walk around campus with a, with a big boombox and he used to play a lot of reggae and he used to like just walk around dancing all the time. And like we'd be so embarrassed to be walking with him that we were like, stand behind sometimes, 'cause he was just, he was just completely loose and just dancing around campus and, and, you know, just being loud. You know how, how Joe is. So, so we're walking with the boombox in the middle of the street, like there's no cars and there's literally, I mean, the, the wind is going crazy. There's trees falling on the side and things like that. Like it, it was pretty bad, but we actually made it to Gator Diner. And it was like heaven. Like, we ate like we've never eaten before, and like, we just stuffed ourselves. And like, then after we finished eating, we're like, should we take some to Torian and Corey? Because they didn't want to come with us. And Joe was like, nah, nah, nah, nah, we're not gonna. I was like, it's like, like, we should. So like, we ended up being, you know, good teammates, good, good friends. And we brought them some food. And then we went back to the dorms, brought the food back. And then Joe had a camcorder. So we went outside and we recorded the storm and everything, and we were talking about how we were gonna share it with our kids one day, that nobody was gonna believe us in the middle of the hurricane, and we got through. So it was a pretty, you know, it was a pretty, I guess, kind of wild story. But it just shows how Joe is, you know, Joe is different. Joakim is different. So like, you know, in the middle of the hurricane, You know, we got it together and we went and took our chances and went and got some food.

Sounds like a perfect encapsulation of Joe Kim Noah. And obviously Tommy put you on the spot and, you know, you had to come up with a PG-rated story. I'm guessing there are other Joe Kim Noah stories. I just want to make a couple comments. I just want to make a couple comments. First of all, your setup sounds sweet because my freshman year at Duke, I was in one room, one single dorm room with two other players. There were three of us. There were three beds in the room. And it was awful. And then I also like how you anecdotally just said, we didn't have cars or anything at Florida. You just had to put that in there. I didn't ask. I didn't ask if you had a car.

Because people right away are like, oh, like, you know, you guys had like— no, we, we walked everywhere. We bussed everywhere. We didn't even have bikes. And we had friends that had cars that we were always hitting people up. Hey, can you give us a ride here? Can you give us a ride there? Yeah. So I just wanted to make that, that point.

All right.

All right.

Do you, we're gonna wrap here. I want to be cognizant of your time and we appreciate it, but we're starting the NCAA tournament today. Arizona Wildcats already lost. Really hyped about that. 'Cause Richard Jefferson's been talking a lot of shit. With the way college basketball is going, and, and I mean, historically there were 15 years in between repeat champions, what you guys were able to accomplish in 2006 and 2007, do you think there's any way that we ever see repeat champions again in NCAA men's basketball?

I think so. You know, I think it's just, you know, it's a matter of time. I don't know if we'll see 'em like what happened with us, that you have guys returning and, and repeating. But some of these programs, you know, the type of recruits that they're getting and the way that things are, I'm sure somebody, you know, at some point will repeat again.

I'll take that bet. I'll take that bet.

All right. We'll circle back.

I'll send you my Venmo in 20 years.

All right.

We're going to give it a 20-year time.

You got it.

Al, this is awesome, man. We appreciate it.

Thanks, bro.

Best of luck the rest of the way.

All right. Appreciate it, guys. All right. Thanks.