#1: How to become a founder

Welcome to How to Be a Founder, where we'll explore the challenges behind early-stage company building, and I hope support some founders along the way. I'm Matt Clifford, co-founder of Entrepreneur First, and I'm here with my co-founder and now co-author, Alice Bentinck. Alice, hello.

Hello, Matt. Together, we've worked with thousands of founders to build companies now worth over $10 billion. Over this podcast, and with our newly released book, How to Be a Founder, out now, please do go and buy a copy. We'll be sharing with you the insights and knowledge we've learned while working with real-life early-stage founders on their questions. You can think of us as your startup agony aunt and uncle.

So sit back and get listening, and we'll try and answer your burning questions on how to be a founder.

So this week's topic is how to become a founder. It won't surprise you that Matt and I are pretty bullish on the most ambitious people becoming founders. But we know that getting going and taking the first step can still feel like a big and risky move to make. Matt, we left our corporate jobs at the same time to become co-founders together. Do you remember what it was like, the decision process, the fear that you had when you were thinking about leaving your career?

I do. Or rather the bit that is, you know, it's obviously now over a decade ago. And the thing that really sticks in my head was less just before and more just after when it suddenly hit home for me that I didn't have a boss anymore. But I don't mean that in the positive sense of, you know, people often say like, oh, be your own boss. That's a great reason to be a founder. The kind of reality of what that meant hit me. I remember very clearly just being like, wow, we could fail. We could genuinely fail and no one would care. I think as someone who, like a lot of people who apply to EF and hopefully a lot of people listening to this, if you've always been ambitious and you've always been trying to compete and win, suddenly realizing that you're not climbing a ladder anymore, you're not ticking boxes anymore, it is like very binary. You will succeed or you'll fail. I remember that feeling so clearly. It was scary at the time, but it became an enormous motivator.

Well, it's funny as well, because at the time I remember the fear and thinking how embarrassing it would be if we failed. And now, just having seen so many people go through this process, it's just realising that nobody cares if you fail. Like, it's not a big deal, but it did feel like a massive, massive deal at the time. And I suppose 10 years on, it's easy to say that. I mean, one of my early memories of EF is, you know, lots of people saying to us, you know, you're not going to get some more experience. You know, we had 2 years' experience as consultants. We were 25. And I think lots of people thought maybe we were a bit young to do what we were doing. But I think having now worked with many, many different founders, actually, Youth is not a barrier, as in there is no optimal time to become a founder during your life. But that said, I think there is something about the kind of naive optimism that you have when you're 25, as we were, where we started something that was way harder than we realized it would be. And we were so naive and optimistic that we sort of bulldozed our way through a lot of the hard stuff because we were like, how hard can it be?

Well, I think that's the thing, isn't it? I think we were young, and in some ways, I think we shouldn't sugarcoat the this sort of trade-off in that I think we had to learn from scratch a lot of things that if we had been longtime venture capitalists, we wouldn't have had to learn. So in some ways, the inexperience did make the start operationally harder. But as you say, the thing it unlocked, which I very genuinely believe was absolutely key, and without this, I think AEF wouldn't exist, is it allowed us to see past the conventional wisdom of the industry we were going into. And I think this is the superpower that often you have very early in your career that it's really easy to underrate, which is that as you get older and more experienced, and particularly if you become successful, it becomes really difficult to truly challenge the status quo, to truly challenge conventional wisdom, because you're a beneficiary of the status quo and a beneficiary of that conventional wisdom. And so EF is obviously built on this very radical and back in 2011, very controversial idea that you can and should start a company with a stranger. And so although in some ways, I think we made life really hard for ourselves because we didn't have that much experience, the fact that we didn't allowed us to start with this, as we call it in the book, this secret, this idea that we believe this thing that other people don't believe. And that, I think, is a real advantage of being an early career founder. So for our first guest of the series, we're going to speak with a future founder, someone who's already made the decision to start a company, which obviously, we are big fans of that decision. And we're going to talk with them about what is the best way to get started. So Nacho, hello, welcome.

Hi. Hello. It's not as easy as it seems to take that decision. But yeah, let's go.

It's definitely not. That's one of the things I think we'll dive into. But maybe before we do that, you could kick off by telling us just a bit more about your background. And particularly, like, what are the main things that Alice and I can help you Yeah, sure.

So, I mean, well, you can tell from my exotic accent that I'm Spanish, and I'm an aerospace engineer. I love space. I would love to get lost in space. And I started my career within Airbus, ranging from satellite engineering to procurement of fighter jets. And then now I'm in scouting. So I look for new startups, let's say, in the region of Asia Pacific. And that's kind of what pushed me to, hey, you're looking for startups, but what about becoming one, right? So, so that's also kind of the focus.

So, as you're going through this process of thinking about becoming a founder, where would you say you are? Are you ready to quit your job? Are you ready to get going? Or are you still at that kind of phase of maybe later, I'll see how it goes?

No, definitely. So, I had actually had this conversation with my boss today. So, today was the tearing moment, right? So, yes, I'm definitely convinced. Going 100% into it and for the October cohort starting in Singapore. And yes, it was a long journey actually until you decide because it seems like when you're thinking, for instance, of buying a car, you think of a model and then you start seeing it everywhere. So it's kind of the analogy is also when you want to start, right? You go like, okay, I want to start. And then you start seeing negative news everywhere. Like, why would you go into this market? Why now? Why don't you stop for later? And it's like, but everything looks shiny, just like 10 minutes ago before I committed to this decision. And, well, I know I'm ready. So, it's just like, today, I had that conversation.

Well, congratulations on quitting your job. I think, you know, one of the phrases that Matt and I use a lot is that most people won't. Everyone talks about wanting to be a founder. Very few people actually become founders. I think it's always one of those things that's on people's aspirational career paths. But life gets in the way, careers get in the way. Eventually, as you build responsibilities, they all get in the way. So first of all, you've made the most important step.

Alice, to your point, and that's why also this talk is very important, because your beginnings, both of you are very inspiring as well. Because I had the question, like, what made you take that jump, let's say initial jump from McKinsey, let's say into entrepreneur first, versus having stayed there and playing the kind of the corporate game, let's say, and having a successful career, which eventually you've had?

I think one of the things is that I actually think what you described a few moments ago is a very typical experience that once the seed is sown, of, you know, there might be another way. For some people, it becomes very hard to get that out of their head. The seed starts to grow, and once it starts to grow, it becomes the answer to all those doubts. One of the things about corporate careers that, you know, to be clear, we had a great experience at McKinsey. You know, like a lot of our friends are still there, and it is a really brilliant place to build a career precisely because it's perfectly engineered that every 12 months you progress, you know, you get a pay rise, you're reaching the next step of the way. It's these little dopamine hits of career capital, which not just feel good, but they are good. And so I think the hard thing for a lot of founders or would-be founders is how do you get out of that sort of dopamine addiction? And so I think for us, why did we eventually take the leap? I think we were kind of lucky in that back then, there was an expectation that analysts stayed at McKinsey for 2 years and then they left. And so we just had this like, well, at the end of it, we're going to do something. And we'd been talking for a while about doing something together. So one of the reasons we created Entrepreneur First and gave it the structure it had is that I think there are a lot of people, particularly if you're in a place where starting a startup is still not normal, it's still not the thing that most people are doing. How do you make— create enough infrastructure that people who've got that seed are like, well, it doesn't feel quite as crazy. to jump into something completely new?

Yeah, you're right. I think I had to. I mean, I realized because for me it was a journey, right? From the very first moment that you think, okay, I'm going to do this. And then you bump into programs like yours, like Entrepreneur First. I saw that there was an ego component because I was starting to get somehow successful, let's quote unquote that, right, within my company. And then it just feels like, well, I'm going to give this away, all the kind of conference, all the shiny, flashy pictures and LinkedIn posts, right? And then I'm going to jump into this. Am I going to really leave this behind? So once you detect and understand that there's an ego there involved, I think that helped me, let's say, to say like, okay, yes, this is the time and let's go forward. Another thing, Matt, that I wanted to bring to the table is like, again, I'm doing technology scouting, so looking a lot into new tech and seeing also that there's tons of gaps in the market. I mean, there's a huge need to keep on building startups. So, so with this need in mind, it's kind of stupefying, let's say, why not more startups are launching now. So why do you think we don't build more?

So this is, this is the question that Matt and I really have dedicated the last 10 years of our lives to. And one of the things that we know is a challenge is that there's a huge amount of help and literature out there to support you once you have a team, once you have an idea, once you have those sort of first building blocks of a startup. But actually, there's not a huge amount out there about how do you get started? So, how do you quit your job? How do you find a co-founder? How do you develop an idea? And that's why we wrote the book, How to Be a Founder, and it's why we've structured Entrepreneur First in this way. But I think when we look at— often, we get asked about competitors to Entrepreneur First, and largely, the biggest competitor is still the status quo. Most people end up staying in jobs. Because, as Matt was saying, jobs are highly addictive. They're made to be highly addictive. And I think the kind of conversation we've been having about it is really hard to quit your job. And I think one of the things I personally struggled with in the early days of EF was no one cared what we were doing. And, you know, we'd gone from having, like, a career that people were impressed by to friends and family being like, oh, cool, you're doing that little thing, aren't you? That kind of, like, little side project. And it was at least 3 years before anyone took it seriously. And that's a long time as somebody who's high ego, high ambition, high validation seeking. That's really, really hard to get through. And I think ultimately, that still holds a lot of people back, that you actually need to be surrounded by other people who are saying, yes, it takes time. Yes, it's slow. Yes, it's hard. But this is the best way that you can spend your career and the best way you can spend your life.

I mean, Alice, spot on, because I remember the day I take the decision, right? I call my dad and I go like, hey, Dad, I decided to quit Airbus and I'm jumping into this. And he says like, are you out of your mind? So I was looking for my dad to say like, yes, you got this. Come on, kid, it's yours. Whatever you do is going to be successful. I was waiting for that to come, right? But it was like, are you insane? So as I was telling Matt before, it's just like, you were like, there's this ego component, right? Where you just get like this dopamine he was mentioning. Like, yes, you're being understood, you're being successful, you're having these tiny successes, you're having showtime, let's say, within the company. So it's just like very hard to say like, okay, goodbye to everything. Now let's start from scratch.

I think the other piece that's worth just dwelling on a bit as well is that I think a lot of people, a lot of startups that ought to exist don't happen because the people that should found them together never meet. And this is obviously our core thesis at EF, and also a big part of the content of the book is this idea that co-founders are a superpower. EF wouldn't exist if Alice hadn't agreed to start it with me because I would have been terrible as a sole founder. And when I look at the companies that we've helped to build at EF, There are very, very few of them, I think, that would exist if only one of the founders was there. And yet, I think one of the big challenges the world still faces is that most people don't have in their network someone who is as determined as they are, as ambitious as they are, as smart and capable, and as ready to start right now. And I think one of the challenges that the global startup ecosystem has had is that this is much less a problem in Silicon Valley, where approximately everyone who's interested in startups and thinking about starting startups all the time than it is anywhere else. So all the content that the VC industry, the startup industry has produced sort of assumes that people have co-founders. We start from the opposite perspective, which is it's kind of a miracle that anyone has a co-founder at all. It's such a high bar. It should be a very high bar for choosing a co-founder. And so I do think that whether at EF or outside, this is probably the number one thing that aspiring entrepreneurs should work on once they've made the decision. Now is the time. It's like, cool, you've done the when, now the who. And the who is absolutely key.

Yeah. And yes, as you said, I mean, also picking a co-founder soon, let's say, and also recognizing how important that decision is to the success of the startup. Like, what advice would you give to every founder looking for their co-founder, actually?

Well, this is, this is, I suppose, one of our favorite topics. And I think, for listeners, we will be doing a full, full one on co-founders in the future, full episode. But I suppose the big push I would make, and the big error that we see people make, is often people have to end up with the available co-founder. We call this the co-founder of convenience, rather than the right co-founder. And it's largely because there isn't a huge supply of co-founders in whatever city, whatever location that you're in. And so, often, it's your friend turning around to you and saying, hey, let's Let's do something together. Now, sometimes that can work. And there's plenty of brilliant examples of that working. But I think there's a real challenge that if you don't have that option, or if the people who are available aren't interested in the same ideas, don't have the right complementary skills, does that mean that you can't be a founder? And so, one of the things that we're very keen on is how can you create and run a co-founder search process that enables you to find the optimal co-founder for you, rather than the convenient available co-founder. Now, obviously, this is what we do at Entrepreneur First. We bring together cohorts of people, and they have a very careful screening process that allows co-founders to find each other within a matter of weeks. If you're not doing Entrepreneur First, what I would push you to do and push you to think about is, how can you create the network that you need to find a co-founder? And then, how can you systematically go through that and test different individuals in that network to find out who is the best match for you. Our big, big push with co-founders is often people approach it like finding a friend, like, oh, we both love climbing, we both love yoga, this is great. It's not. A co-founder is the most expensive hiring decision you'll ever make. You know, it's 50% of your company. And so ultimately, you need to run it like you're testing this individual as your most important hire. We have this internal mantra, which is, Productivity is traction for teams. You know, you have a good co-founder if you can be productive together. So, if you look at how much you're learning every day, how much you're outputting every day, if you are more productive, significantly more productive with your co-founder than without them, that's a great sign. But I'm always amazed, and Matt, I'm sure you've seen these teams as well, where you get individuals who just love each other, and they really want to work together, and they want to make it work, but they're not getting anything done. And they say, no, we're the perfect co-founders. We're perfect on paper, and our values are the same, and our beliefs are the same. But if you can't actually produce anything, you shouldn't be working together.

Yeah, you're right.

For this, it's true that while going through the application process, I basically consumed all the content that you've generated, right? So I came across this article that you wrote about the analogy with Love Is Blind, and I love it. I mean, that's super powerful because, well, I must say that I hated that program, right? That show.

I got addicted to it. I loved it.

But leaving this aside, I mean, that's fantastic. It's true. It's all about the iteration because my initial impulse would be like, hey, go call my best friend Roberta and say like, hey, let's start a business together because you're so in sync. All these little experiments and this culture of it's okay to break up and try with others. I think that you don't have in real life because, I mean, imagine me right now starting it without Entrepreneur First, right? It would be like, okay, so yes, we came across each other. Cool. We don't work well together, but if you leave, what am I gonna do, right? So it's just like you say, you settle. So that's very powerful and also one of the things that made me go for the program.

I think the only other thing I'd add on great companies and why more companies aren't started, I think there are just also a lot of misconceptions about almost what kind of companies it makes sense to start. So one of the reasons that We're so passionate about the idea of ambition is that I think a mistake that some people make is that they sort of get to the point where they're excited about all the things that being a founder will bring them, but they haven't really properly internalized how hard it's going to be. And so I think one of the biggest sources of waste in entrepreneurship is fantastic people Who just not only, you know, Alice already talked about the idea of settling for a co-founder, but like settling for an idea, I think is equally dangerous in that starting a startup is really hard. Even if you're trying to do something that can't be that big, it's not harder to build a really big company than a medium-sized company. Like all the pain is the same. One of the things that worries us about when we look at the world of entrepreneurship sometimes is if people don't start with very high levels of ambition, it's very easy for them to get trapped in things that are like, Okay. But actually probably not as good an outcome for them on any dimension. I don't just mean financially, but intellectually, in terms of career development, psychologically, as keeping their job. And so actually, I think one of my pieces of advice to you, as someone who's already made the decision to quit their job, have the conversation with the boss, as Alice said, a lot of that's the hard bit. Key thing for you now is don't waste the moment. Make sure that you immediately go from that now is the time thinking to, okay, how big can it be? Because you can work really hard and be really stressed and like, not find it, you know, like not have a lot of money for a long time, and it not be worth it if actually the thing that you're trying to do is just not ambitious enough. So I think that's something that's still underrated, particularly getting outside the US. I think ambition is actually key to making entrepreneurship worth it.

And on that line, like, what would you say are the most common worries like startup founders think about? In the early stage that they shouldn't really worry about?

Well, I think the number one thing is probably, which I sort of hinted at before, but is maybe worth drawing out, is I think founders think a lot at the beginning about what will be hard and use that to filter out ideas. Oh, well, I could do X or I could do Y. Well, X seems hard, so I'm going to do Y. The reality is every startup is hard, and it's hard for reasons that are Nothing to do with the idea. You know, like just hiring people, making an organization run, raising money. All these things are generically hard, whatever kind of company you build. But I think if you look at the great companies in the world, the really iconic companies, you know, the Googles, the Microsofts, the Airbnbs, the Stripes, these were hard, hard companies. If you'd said at the beginning, even probably to the founders, like, this is what it could be, it would have almost been off-puttingly hard. And I think that's one thing founders have to learn at the very beginning is not to be daunted by that. See the scary thing, lean into the fear that is created by your ambition and keep going. Don't let that repel you from an idea. Now, that doesn't mean abandoning common sense. If you say, cool, I'm going to build a time machine, that's not ambitious. That's ludicrous. But I do think that being willing to say the ridiculous thing, that you're going to do something that will change the world in a profound way, you should be willing to feel and look foolish in doing that. Because the opposite, playing it safe, trying to get everyone to like what you're doing, that's how you end up with mediocre outcomes that probably weren't worth it for the risk you were taking.

I think we see the opposite as well, where people are trying to jump on a bandwagon to find what's easy, as in they're trying to find— So, at the moment, maybe slightly less so now, but at the beginning of the year, it felt like everyone and their dog wanted to build a Web3 company, because that was what was going to be easy to get funded. Now, one of the reasons we talk about EDGE so much in How to Be a Founder is you should be building the right startup for you. And the right startup for you is— industry trends are kind of irrelevant. You know, you want to be working on something that is making the most of the skills, the knowledge, the behaviors that you have. And by focusing on your edge, rather than focusing on what's easy, or what's hard, what's trendy, whatever else it may be, it really gives you a competitive advantage over other founders, because you're working on an area where you already have some sort of starting point, some sort of head start. I love this point you're making, Matt, around, actually, it's okay to look foolish. I think we looked pretty foolish when we were first starting EF. Going around telling people we're going to get strangers together and build startups from pools of strangers. I don't think anyone took us seriously for a very, very long time. But that's— you have to. And it goes back to this point you're making, Nacho, about ego. You have to be willing to let go of your short-term ego because you genuinely believe in what you're creating and the change you want to make in the world.

I must say that during the process, the recruiting process, I did say like, hey, do you think— I was asking the recruiting team, like, do you think this idea kind of— isn't it too big? Isn't it like too foolish to go this way? And they were like, no, dude. I mean, I mean, just like build whatever you want. I mean, even if it requires massive capital, as you said, I mean, we will chunk it out and we will help you chunk it out. So just like go for what you think is right and also for what kind of lights the fire in your belly kind of thing. So that I really appreciate it a lot, actually, because that also is another burden that you have, like the mentally self-imposed barriers that you have.

Nacho, thank you so much for your questions. I think you've asked many of the questions that we hear from founders at your stage. Best of luck with the startup, and we look forward to seeing what you create.

Thank you, Alice.

So Nacho had already made the call to found a company, but as we know, getting even that far can be a big choice and a big barrier. So we're now going to answer a letter from a real-life founder who's facing exactly that decision. Alice, do you want to read it out?

Sure thing. So the letter says, dear Matt and Alice, I've always been interested in starting a company, but I don't know whether now is the right time to do it. Last year I finished my economics undergrad and have been working at a consultancy firm since. Their grad scheme was really competitive to get into, so me and my family were over the moon when I got the place. But I'm bored. The job feels repetitive. I don't feel like I'm having any impact beyond making other people money, and I feel really constrained by the company's structure. I've always said I'd start up one day after I'd got some good experience, but realistically can't see myself doing this job for the next 20 years. I've spoken to my parents about wanting to leave the scheme, but they're really against it. They say the scheme will open a lot of doors for me, but dropping out will make me look flaky to future employers. The scheme also has an accounting qualification built in, and part of me thinks that I should at least stick it out to finish that. I've read countless stories of successful entrepreneurs starting really young and being dropouts. Am I deluded for thinking I could do the same? Should I just go for it, or am I being an idiot for leaving behind what everyone else thinks is such a good opportunity? All the best, Alex.

Great question.

Yeah. And one, I mean, I think we've met a lot of people who are going through this process, thinking through this process. What's your immediate reaction?

I think the first thing to say is that, to me, it's very obvious that the answer is not, don't worry, quit your job, everything will be fine. Like, I think the first thing we would probably say is, It's absolutely right to be asking these questions and thinking hard. We obviously, I think it goes without saying, given the company we built together and the book we've written together, are very pro people starting companies. But entrepreneurship really isn't for everyone. And I think it's absolutely right to think of it as first a big decision, but also to think of it as a sort of high-skill profession, if you like. And so, I think the important thing to start with is to work out why is it you want to be a founder and what kind of company might you want to start? And what does that suggest about the skills and experience that you're going to want? What kind of edge you'll need to develop before you jump in? So I think these are all good questions and it's right to sort of spend real time working through them. What do you think?

I mean, I completely agree with what you're saying. And in some ways, it's interesting, because I feel that there are 2 cultures going on simultaneously in most of the ecosystems we work in, which is, there's a sort of startup fan group where it's like, quit your job, you're crazy not to. And then there's a bunch of people following the status quo. And I think, to your point, a considered approach is definitely the best way to do it. I suppose one of the myths that I would bust that Alex talks about in the letter is, I've always said I'd start up one day after I'd got some good experience.

Yeah.

This experience barrier thing we hear the whole time, and this is one of the things we talk about in the book, is what is sufficient experience? So, coming back to this idea of the naive optimism that we had, typically what we see is people with about 2 to 6 years' experience have enough experience to understand an industry, understand the changes that need to be made, but not so much experience that, as you were saying, Matt, they've bought into and become addicted to the status quo. So I would challenge Alex to think about, okay, when will you have enough experience? And if you look at the experience and network that you currently have, is it sufficient? Matt, what do you think about this point around parental approval and the sort of cultural peer approval for a decision like this?

Yeah, this is really hard. And again, I wouldn't want to underplay it, as in, I don't think it's helpful to pretend that this isn't A big deal. But I would say to Alex that it's really normal. I think most founders go through this period, particularly with parents, I have to say. And different cultures deal with this very differently. But I think even in a relatively, you know, sort of pro-entrepreneurship culture, as we have in the UK, I remember my parents thought it was pretty— I think it was a good 5 years before my parents really understood what we were doing at EF. And that definitely made it harder. But I think what I would say is that the thing that these people want for you is for you to be successful and to be happy and energized by what you're doing. And so I think the way you deal with this is not by ignoring them or kind of leaning into your rebellious side. I think it's by really going through that process of understanding yourself. And we talk a lot about this in the book. Understanding your edge, so that when you describe what you're doing to your parents, to your friends, to your peers, it doesn't sound like this completely spur-of-the-moment decision. I think what people don't want and what Alex is clearly getting at in the letter is this idea that you're just throwing things away. I think the key to having this conversation with parents and other family and friends is to actually show that you've thought pretty carefully about these things. This is why I want to be a founder. This is my edge. This is how I'm going to use my edge in building the company. This is the process I'm going to use. I think once people understand, and again, I think this is one of the benefits that being part of EF brings you, is that you're actually doing this in a very serious, very methodical, very hypothesis-testing-driven way. I think actually people get more comfortable with it. So I don't think you should ignore it, but equally, I do think there are tools and processes and frameworks you can use to make that more comfortable for the people around you.

Definitely. One of the— I suppose just building on that idea, Alex talks about getting this accounting qualification. And again, I think this is something that we hear a lot, where potential founders are holding themselves back because they're waiting to get a particular qualification, a particular set of experiences. And my push would be that the only way to learn how to become a founder is to found something. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean you have to quit your job. You can build side projects, you can build things in your, in your 5 till 9, as they say. But really, the only way to learn founder skills is to to start building something. And the barrier to starting building something, getting something in front of customers is so low. You know, it's, we're, we're at a historical all-time low at how cheap and quick and easy it is to bring product to hundreds, thousands, if not millions of people very, very quickly. So, when you think about the qualifications or the skills that you need to be a founder, I would push that actually the only way to learn those skills is to start building something and to start building that startup. You know, it's the old adage that we mentioned in the book of, you can read all the books about how to play the piano, but you only really learn how to play the piano when you put your hands on the keys. And the same is very true for entrepreneurship. It is experiential. And yeah, you know, you can get entrepreneurship masters and entrepreneurship courses, but ultimately, it's going out and building something yourself that will teach you how to do customer development effectively, how to build the product, how to respond to market needs. So I suppose I would encourage Alex to think about if he does want to become a founder, is he, is he thinking about these qualifications as something that will hold him back, or as something that will help him be more successful? And I suppose I'd want to dispel the idea that it would make him more successful.

Yeah. And I think the thing I would really underline there is that you will never feel ready. And you'll never be ready. You can't possibly have all the experience that you will need in order to succeed. So there might be good reasons to get the qualification. But I think the bad reason to get it would be, then I'll be ready. Like, it's just never going to happen. There's always more to learn, and you can't let that hold you back.

It feels like in the letter and the chat with Nacho, we've covered many of the concerns that we hear from very early-stage founders, or pre-founders, when people are just thinking about whether to take the plunge or not. I think some of the themes for me that came up that were interesting, Matt, was around ego and how ego can influence the decisions we make. I hit this readiness point around experience and age and challenging the status quo. What else stood out for you?

Yeah, I think it's just a really helpful reminder that every journey is different. There are these key themes, you know, I think you're exactly right, like ego, readiness, reaction of friends and family. And, you know, I think it's really important that future founders take seriously that there is a reason that it's hard to jump into this. And it's absolutely right to spend real time thinking it through. But remember, you're never going to analytically arrive at the decision that yes, I am ready, or no, I am not. And, you know, I think one of the things that we're excited about in the book is it really has some very concrete frameworks for thinking through both, like, do you have the characteristics that we've seen in successful founders? And also, like, is this a good time? Like, do you have an edge that could be the basis of a big company? And so, it's just great to see that those frameworks really do seem to be applicable across certainly Nacho and Alex's cases, but I'm sure many more.

While we're pointing to other content, I would encourage anyone listening to this to listen to our sister podcast, The Founder's Mindset, which is with our in-house psychologist, Dr. Tina Goulin, where we talk through the mindsets and the barriers that often hold people back from getting started or in the very, very early days of building a company. So, do make sure you check that out. So, just to wrap up then, if we were to answer the question, someone came up to us and said, how do I become a founder? What would be your piece of wisdom, Matt?

I think one thing I would say is simply remember that being a founder is nothing more than starting a company. I think sometimes the whole set of cultural associations of being a founder and all the imposter syndrome and things around that make people forget that the There is no way to become a founder other than getting started. Like, we sometimes encounter sort of analysis paralysis as people make this decision. But ultimately, and you've already said this in this episode, just getting started is the only way to know whether you're going to be good at it in the end. And so finding a way that makes sense for you to do that, whether that's joining EF or going it alone, that's ultimately all there is to it.

Couldn't agree more.

Thank you for listening to How to Be a Founder. To take a deeper dive into the topics we discussed today and more, take a look at our book, How to Be a Founder. It's out now and available online and in bookshops. Co-Fruition.