#109 Robbie Bent cofounder of Othership— From Rock Bottom to Community Buildering Community

So for us, our culture is definitely detail-oriented and excellent, you know, to the point of where everyone's empowered to call out something that's not good enough. Hard in terms of hours. And so we'll say at first, like, yeah, this is our lives. We will all put in the same amount of effort, if not more. If you want to work here and like succeed and do well, that's what it's going to take. And so we do have that in common. But then there's also elements of responsibility as well. You know, our person who runs our paid ads was an intern when they started. Our manager in New York now started as a cleaner in my garage. And so in 5 years, she's like probably number 3 or 4 operationally in the company. Area manager was an assistant, assistant manager for a period of time. So I think giving young people a lot of responsibility when they're, like giving them room to run is really important, but then fun. So I think marrying hard intensity, but with kindness is kind of what we're trying to do. And we'll see if it, if it works. I go back and forth.

Welcome back. This is From Startup to Grownup. My name is Alisa Cohn, and today I'm thrilled to welcome Robbie Bent to the podcast. Robbie is the CEO and co-founder of Othership, a modern bathhouse that's part ritual, part party, and part emotional wellness gym. It's a one-of-a-kind experience that's helping people feel more connected to themselves and to each other. Robbie's path to Othership was anything but linear. From his roots working at the Ethereum Foundation, And from his struggles with addiction, he started building a cold plunge in his backyard in Toronto, which evolved into a full-on movement. He shares how Othership grew from an underground ice bath community to a fast-scaling business with locations in New York and Toronto, and what it really took to get there, including maxing out credit cards, mortgaging family homes, taking bad advice from the wrong people, and facing down serious moments of fear and doubt. We also talked about what it means to build deep relationships with his co-founders, with his team, and with himself. We talked about how Robbie learned to work through conflict, and we got into what it's really like to lead with love and still demand excellence. This conversation is honest and intense and full of lessons. So please enjoy my fantastic conversation with Robbie Bent. Robbie, welcome to the show. I'm so excited to have you.

Thanks. I'm, yeah, thank you.

I'm just thrilled to be together with you. We met at this dinner through Uncharted and I've experienced Othership, and I'm familiar very much with sort of what you guys are building in terms of like building really a movement. And so I really am excited to talk to you. You're the CEO and co-founder of Othership, and it's really a modern bathhouse, but I sort of see it as a place to build community and really have people kind of give space for their emotions and kind of real talk. We'll definitely get into like what Othership is and how it works, but I first wanna ask you like, how did you get interested in the idea of how important it is for people to have space for their emotions and processing?

I was really into a lot of stuff to feel better. And so struggle with drugs, which we can get into later. Um, always was very social, loved like partying, which is why I struggle with drugs, just like be around people and was looking for alternative ways to do that. And on that journey, meditation, psychedelic medicines, therapy, Hoffman, dark retreats, all kinds of crazy stuff. And the idea was, how could you take some of those things which require inner awareness and emotional processing, which is just the idea of like, how am I feeling? And so for most people, if you asked, how did you feel today? They're numb. I was numb. I am numb. You know, so it's this idea that you know how you're feeling and then can share those feelings with others and find real connection. And I found even my own life now with a cell phone, it just makes it difficult to connect. Like I almost, I'm working all the time. I'm in family time, others. I'm like, I've lost the ability to have a conversation. In some ways. And so I think we wanted to create something where you were off your phone, you're changing your nervous system state into a more positive state. So the cold plunge and sauna are for, so it's a Trojan horse. We don't really talk about the health benefits, but it's this idea that you are putting yourself in an optimally positive state where you don't feel any social anxiety or fear. You're not on your phone and then allowing people to better connect, to explore their emotions and talk to others. And, you know, all that's a long-winded way of saying, hey, come to this place, have fun, talk to other people. So super simple.

Yeah, it's super simple. Let's talk about actually the mechanics of it. So it's just, as you call it, a modern bathhouse. And, you know, I got to experience one of these experiences, but like, talk us through what people's experiences as they, as they walk in.

Yes, there's a number of different experiences happening at the space. It's open from 7 AM to midnight. Some are ultra social, some are more meditative, but our core experience is this guided, you know, guided journey. And so you'll start in a tea room having a tea or in a bathing suit. So we're very careful about the sight lines, the size of the towels, the lighting to ensure that you feel better in your body than a normal space like this. You'll sit down, a guide will come out, we'll make sure you've been greeted. We'll call everyone in, bring everyone into the sauna. It's sort of the first moment of wow. And in the sauna, there's generally a 20-minute performance. And the performances have, you know, tons of different themes from inner power to fear setting to acceptance to loving kindness to, you know, body-based things like deep stretch. Or sound immersion where you're listening to live music. So it can be on the range of, hey, this is just about my body and going inward, all the way to this is a dance party and, you know, eye gazing with a stranger. So that 20 minutes happens, then everyone goes in groups into the cold plunges. You're sort of guided. And in the cold plunge, you have 16 people at a time doing a 2-minute cold plunge together. Optional, you can get out, but it creates a little bit of pure pressure when you look around and see like, wow, all these people are doing this hard thing. And that's really the magic of the experience. It spikes the dopamine, norepinephrine in the brain, those feel-good receptors saying like, wow, you know, you get out, you're like excited. It's like kind of give your partner a high five. And it's very hard to meet people even in fitness class or at a coffee shop. There's like that barrier of, hey, I might be rejected. And so this kind of takes that away and it's like, hey, we've just done— there's actually a lot of science around doing these types of activities together create mutual trust because they're challenging. So you do this thing, you come out, you feel alive, electric, and trusting your group. After that cold plunge, you then go back into the sauna for what we call the integration. And that comes from, you know, group therapy, men's work, women's work, psychedelic medicines. And it's a share. It's like, hey, you know, does anyone have something they want to get off their chest? Does— what was that experience like for you? And usually 4 or 5 people will share. And part of the magic is seeing other people being human, which we don't get on social as much today. It's harder to find. So it's just, you know, changing your nervous system state through hot-cold, doing it together in a group to create trust and then a mutual share. And then after that, there's 15 minutes left in the class we call free flow. And so it kind of gives you a chance to maybe meet somebody from the class who shared something.

Wow. It's so remarkable. And I love how you have, you know, really planned it out. Obviously, and you've sort of designed it with so much intention and frankly love, but it didn't start out that way. It started out in Toronto. So give us kind of the backstory of how Othership got created.

I had moved back to Toronto with my wife. I'd been working at the Ethereum Foundation and she was traveling around. We were traveling around together in San Francisco, Berlin, Thailand, all these different kind of crypto developer hubs, going to conferences, planning conferences. And so we moved back because we sick of traveling out of a suitcase for a number of years. And my friend had said, hey, we should build a bathhouse. So initially the plan was to build a bathhouse. We explored that for a while and to sort of determine if that was something we wanted to do, we built a cold plunge in our backyard and it was lean startup style for a physical space, which is rare, saying like, let's see if we can just get people to come and do this cold plunge.

Yeah, it was like a bath with like ice in it.

Literally just a horse trough. And so every night I would walk down to the grocery store, I'd buy $60 worth of ice in bags and like wheel them back to my house and put them in the ice bath filled with water water. We'd invite people from the nearby gym and restaurants and just kind of a come one, come all in the park. We'd be talking about it. And every night we'd have fire going and this ice bath, and we would just invite people in. And mostly the goal was to see like, okay, do people like the ice bath? And then can we build a healthy community in Toronto where I didn't have as many healthy friends? I just moved back and prior to that was really into drugs and alcohol and partying. And so I was a little bit nervous. So it was just like, hey, can we build a healthy community of friends in Toronto. And also I plunged every day and it was like, oh, I'll build this for myself and use it daily. And it was super fun. And so that grew really rapidly into a 300-person WhatsApp community. And people would just say like, yeah, I'm going at 2:00 PM today, or I'm going at 4:00 PM. And every day there'd be people in my backyard and I would just go out and hang out and we'd be doing the ice bath together with myself, my wife, my best friend, and then another couple who are now two of my closest friends. Yeah.

And so, I mean, it just sounds like you sort of created it and organically became this community space. And at what At what point did you realize, okay, this is going to be a business?

So we, it got cold out. And so the backyard didn't work in the winter. And so we kind of looked at my garage and said, oh, this is cool. It's just an, it was a, I rented the house and it was just an empty space the owner was using for woodworking. And so we just were like, hey, can we use the space and rent this also? And so we emptied it out. We built in a little sauna, a little ice bath place that could be used in the winter, could fit about 6 people at a time. And we again ran that as an offering for the community by donation. And that grew to 1,000 members. And so every day one of us would work it. And just kind of testing out like, you know, what a giant bathhouse works. The bathhouse to build is, you know, $7, $10, $15 million. Yeah. We had made the plans for the bathhouse. However, when COVID hit, they kind of fell out the window. It was like, hey, is this even a viable model? But we had this garage running that worked really well. And in the garage space, we had this idea of, you know, people are coming and they're like, I don't exactly, like you said, I don't want to go in the ice bath. Yeah. You know, how do I go in? And thought at first people wanted to come for health reasons, but once they're there, they don't care. When you're about to get into something that you're afraid of, the inflammation benefits, the immune system benefits, nobody cares. They want an experience. And so we started taking from all these things I had mentioned and designing experiences, whether it was an eye gaze in the ice bath and a hug with the person you were dating into sharing about your first date in the sauna, or it was turning all the lights out in the garage and having a drum playing super loud, doing breathwork around it. So just kind of experimenting with a lot of stuff. We had picked up from retreats. And about 4 months into that, once there was around 1,000 people coming, it's pretty clear that this model is unique and fun. And you could do some programming, like nobody's on their phone, people are becoming friends. There was this idea that you could guide people through this experience. And prior to this, there were no guided classes in like a sauna ice bath environment that just didn't exist. And so it was just kind of through testing and like, you know, for lack of a better term, fucking us fucking around with stuff we liked. Yeah. But, um, we decided like, wow, okay, I think we want to build something here. So we self-funded the first unit. We shipped for ship and we signed a lease like in COVID, you know, right in Toronto, in Toronto, which at the time the first vaccine was out, but it was still a lockdown and it was a pretty big risk, especially in Canada. Huge risk, very intense. I remember people were, you know, we went to a New Year's party and the neighbors called the police because there was a gathering of like 9 people, which is insane, you know, that people were doing that. And so we believed in it. We saw so many people were coming to the garage, people were becoming friends. We were using it every day. And so there was just a firm and still is. And that's what led to— not many Canadian brands tackle New York as a first market, especially in like wellness or consumers that aren't franchised. It's very rare for a Canadian brand to say like, we're going to New New York, we're going to open this experience and compete. And so we just had that belief right from the beginning because we use the product every day and we love it so much. And so at that point in time when, you know, we signed that first lease and put up the money, it was like, this is a, this is a real thing at least. So I quit my other job then. And once that first one opened, we traveled around every city, major city in the US, and there was nothing like it. And we kind of said, hey, we're going to try to make this a real, we're going to try to be the leaders in this movement and bring it to the US. And that's when we became a real business.

Right. And how did you decide on New York?

So we looked at Austin. I think the customer base is there for what we're doing. So it's ahead of the curve on a lot of health and wellness stuff, a lot of meditation, psychedelic medicine stuff. And then, and talking to advisors. So one of the founders of SoulCycle is a friend and investor. She was just saying, look, if you're coming to New York and you're bringing a gym Maybe you want to prove yourself out in a less competitive market, but if you're coming with something that is net new, you want to own New York. And so that stuck with me because if you build something that new in New York and New York backs you, there's 15 neighborhoods that you can build here. You know, then there's Brooklyn, which is twice the size of downtown Toronto itself. Then there's New Jersey. So in a small range, I think there's a potential to build 15 other ships. So just like take the market where you can go the deepest. And take that one the most serious. So that really stuck with me. And then also just if you build in New York, if Flatiron is the center of the world for wellness, and if you build the thing that is the best, that brand carries. And so you see a lot of brands that are built in New York and then scale nationally. So it just felt to us like the biggest stage, you know, felt like in Canada we were playing in like the NCAA or something, even like high school. And it felt like New York was like the NBA All-Star Game.

Yeah.

For a basketball analogy. And so we just thought, yeah, hey, we're, we're, I think to this day we are the best in the world. We created this thing, created this movement, we put all our efforts into it. And so we wanted to showcase it on the biggest stage.

I love that. And you know, I just wanna highlight what you've just said because it's not a gym, it's not even a bathhouse.

Mm-hmm.

It really is like a, a movement like you're calling it. It is definitely part of the health and wellness movement, but it's not really about the sauna and the cold plunge, although that's part of it. It's really about this kind of, oh, sharing experience. And I can tell that you kind of iterated your, your, your your way through that. I guess I really have to say, if I just check my own experience and my experience of many other people, I might do a cold plunge in the backyard one day, right? Like, I'm a healthy girl, right? I can see that. And I might invite my friends over. I'm just not the kind of person to say to the entire community, "Hey, come on over my bathhouse, drop in." And I just want to know, how did you build your gene or your superpower in creating community, which is really what you did in Toronto and now you've been scaling it?

I thought, I think I, just really care about the thing that we're doing. And so I just was really excited about it right from the beginning, how it made me feel. It was the first date I went on with my wife. Second, like, first real date. The first date she picked me up from the airport and I was going to meet my mom and grandma for lunch and I just like, hey, why don't you come? And then at that day we were just talking about, I wasn't into drinking. And so she did some research and said, hey, I heard about these ice baths on a Rhonda Patrick podcast. Let's find one. So we did a Google search. We went out to Mississauga. It's, you know, 40-minute drive, and it was this kind of old Russian bathhouse that we went to and did a cold plunge for the first time. And the date was amazing. We weren't on our phones. And then that turned into something that we did every week for the next 4 years, and now until this day, which is, you know, 9, 10 years later. And so bathhouse, bathing, not being around alcohol, but being social was really important to me. Prior to that, I did— I just love it. Like, I always loved it. When I was working for Ethereum, I would make WhatsApp groups. I would invite 20 people that would come out. I think there's this desire to be around people. It's how I get my energy, is talking, telling jokes, connecting, sharing gossip. It's really fun for me. And then to be in like great environments with music that feel like cozy and safe, um, I just like— it's natural to me to want to do that. And so it's combining this idea that like— and I used to do that with, you know, in nightclubs with drinking and drugs. And so I was always a type of person who wanted to go out to parties, wanted be around people. So I'm either like, I want to be alone or I want to be around people. And I just love talking. I love sitting around talking, connecting, cracking jokes. Like, I just always love that. So it was a very natural fit. And then when you combine that with how much I love this experience, it's almost like it gives socializing superpowers. So if you, you know, if we went for dinner in a group of 4 and the conversation is, did you hit your quarterly numbers? My kid's doing this. Like, it's so, you know, oh, the weather. Oh, did you see the Chicago Bulls or New York Yankees she's getting. Like, who cares, you know? You leave that environment thinking like, I didn't talk about anything I'm excited about, or the other person. It's almost like you need to be guided in a conversation.

Yeah.

So the idea was, could we create this social environment that was like the best possible environment for dropping your guard? And so turns out, being naked in a bathing suit, like, massive equalizer, right? Versus like, what am I wearing? Uh, not having your phone, another massive thing. Being an environment where like the music, the lighting, the scents are perfect, and then heightening your state. Combining all of those, it just, yeah, it's exactly what I wanted to deliver or was looking for.

Yeah. It was like a peak experience. You know, I think the one thing I can really relate to is when I have, when I do dinners with 4 people or 6 people or whatever, I can't stand that lowest common denominator discussion. I can't stand like, oh, TV, or what are you watching on TV? And so I always do a table question, you know, which might be, when was the last time you felt awe? Or what's a favorite extravagant or what are you grateful for? What's a high? What's a low? And I think it unifies people. But what you are bringing to the table, you know, with sort of these different, you know, modalities is you're bringing again more of this emotional heightening, right? And the sort of the brain chemicals that was working for you. And so I really see that like that's almost the next level of a way to really build that relationship with people.

Yeah. And that's why we see people becoming friends. You know, somebody proposed to his girlfriend in our space recently, which like, I don't know what kind of space is, You know, I don't know if anyone's ever proposed that equinox before. And so that's part of it. It's also a space that makes meditation easier, you know, so some days it's quiet, so it can be a space to go inward, which we're lacking in a city. And then it can be a space to party. And so it's a place to do that as well in a non-guided class format where it's just amazing music and people dancing, and it's similar to a nightclub, but there's no unhealthy additives. So all of that stuff has been added on. Later, but the initial product was hot-cold emotional wellness classes, going internal and then sharing. Yeah. And everything has been built on top. But to solve this problem of I want to feel connected to others, and there's a problem, problem for me, and I was using alcohol and drugs to do it before. And now, you know, all of us are like, how do we make— how do we help people become friends? Yeah. You know, so if I hear, I just moved to New York, I didn't know anyone, I met my 4 best friends at Othership, it's like, well, that's amazing. That's kind of the goal of the product.

Totally. And that's what you let really drives you. I can tell. So you have, I think, the total 5 co-founders, right? And you're the CEO.

Yep.

So talk a little bit about how you kind of connected with the co-founders and specifically how you decided we're gonna do this together and then what you talked about to make sure that you had, you know, we're gonna be in good relationships with the co-founders.

Yeah. I mean, it's very complicated. Like, it's not just 5 co-founders, it's 2 couples. Right. So, you know, the dynamics of 1 couple doing a business, challenging dynamics of 2 couples. I've actually never even heard of that. Like, I'm not even sure that exists in the world. So we're probably the first to do that in like in something that's scaling and successful. I think it comes down to all of us were just obsessed with this thing. And it's not like, oh, one's an investor, like everybody works full-time. Everyone has worked full-time. There's also uniqueness in that it wasn't really meant to be a business when we started. It definitely wasn't meant to be a scaled business. So some things that worked really well is there's one CEO and one strategic decision maker. So there really hasn't been a lot of, you know, okay, we're going to New York. This is the size of the business. This is how we should raise our capital. There was a lot of trust from our team saying like, you know, my wife, this was her, she used to be in the sciences as a master of science, worked at a hospital. My partner Harry was an architect, was in architect school, was a hockey player. As an artist. This is really his first real job. His wife Amanda, she was a model beforehand, so her first like real, real job. And then Miles was in hospitality before on the construction side. So the team just trusted me with the most experience doing startups to set the strategic direction. And even now, 6 years later, there's not a lot of questioning. And so with one decision maker that moves fast, I think that's been a key. I think a big problem is Hey, there's 4 people, we have a committee, everyone wants to do something different. So that's one. The second thing that's really set us up for success is everyone has a long-term vision. So, you know, we still retain over 70% of the company. We control the board. Our ideas, you know, 20 years, 30 years, like let's build an Equinox or Whole Foods. It's not like let's get private equity money and sell in 5 years, which forces you into, I think, bad long-term decisions. So the goal is We actually all want to work here full-time. We know we work with our friends. We know we work on something that we love, that we would do anyways. On my vacation, I'm doing stuff that I love for the business. I'm going to tour other similar spaces or going to other spas or doing emotional retreats. And it's just stuff that I love. So I think one, having a clear decision-maker, and then two, everyone's incentives aligned for the long term. Table stakes.

Yeah.

Next thing where there was problems, when you start, if it's not a business, it's like, how do you determine what each person does and what the equity splits are? And there was definitely some friction there. So we'd hired a coach at first. I think it was probably the wrong coach. And so it created even more friction in terms of how we communicated. And there was a lot of like, don't communicate as friends, communicate in this way, use these like styles of communication that are a little more professional. Versus just having the hard conversations up front of like, yo, we don't think you're pulling your weight, or, you know, this doesn't feel right. I'm working more than you. So it took time, took probably 3 years, I think, as we were growing to really align everybody's values with what they were worth. And there was fights, you know, definitely. So it's common. It's normal. I think what else has been interesting is that Everyone has remained product-focused. So usually as you grow, you're replaced by experts in what you're doing. And so Amanda and Harry have created the classes, the saunas. And so they are the world-leading experts in this thing. My wife is the voice of our brand, you know, is, is, she's like irreplaceable. And then our partner Miles has found his niche as well.

And so what does Miles do?

He's in charge of expansion facilities. And he is the one who like, that role is replaceable. And so he has found his own coach and has worked to level up to do that role. And so over time, the conflict has subsided as everybody feels appropriately compensated. So the other thing we did was just, you know, for splitting equity and salary. So first it was like, okay, what are fair equity splits? And numerous, numerous discussions. Fighting as is normal and then finding something that we were aligned with. And then after that it was like, what is your salary? And your salary doesn't relate to your equity. It's like based on your position and then using a recruiter to come up with, you know, so how we did it was you can choose your comps, go and you find them, bring them to me. Let's have a discussion. Let's talk to a recruiter about it. Uh, and let's look at like your comp for your role now and where your role is going. And then having a conversation where it's transparent across all 5 co-founders. So kind of everyone can keep check on everyone else of like, are you actually doing this kind of thing? So, you know, there's transparency. So I found those things have worked really well. And in the last 2 years, not much conflict, if any, it's just very clear and everyone is doing their job in an excellent way. And what that unlocks is co-founder energy. And I think for these businesses where there are so many people, repeatability is essentially nonexistent because everything is human-driven. It's not like, oh, we built this product, it's the same, it's manufactured and you ship it. It's delivered every time. So in some ways it's like a 5-star restaurant. So you need that co-founder energy to really rub off on the culture and the staff. And there's just a big difference when a co-founder is in the space. Like, you know, for example, the lighting is a candle luminous lumens, I think is the term candlelight lumens is a temperature. And so they don't make the light for that. And so we have to actually find a specific paint and paint over 350 light bulbs across every space to ensure the luminance, the lumens is the exact temperature in the space that matches our brand. And so there's just no way, you know, and what that means is sometimes you'll go in and like one of the light bulbs is missing and like there's just no way an employee's going to see that kind of stuff. So I think having 5 times co-founder energy is a massive superpower if it can be harnessed. And then at the end of the day, like, do you want to do something with your friends? You know, so my wife and I were walking and we're excited to talk about work. And so instead of being something that people will be like, oh, how do you split them? I'm like, we don't, you know, and that's why it works so well is because it's part of both our identities. And so we want to talk about like, how do we acquire new customers? How do we reduce our costs? What city should we open in next? Was that a good class or not? Like, it's exciting and it's fun. And so it's, if you're building something that's really meaningful to do it with people you love, I can't. And that's why we want to do it for a long time, because that chance to do something that you love is like 1 in, you know, 10,000 people maybe. Like I went the other day into a brokerage and it was just 100 zombies looking at their big screen. I mean, this may be triggering for some people listening, but I was just looking and it's just like people looking at PowerPoint presentations. Like, you know, I was like, wow, this was— my soul would die in this environment. And I worked in that environment for a while in finance. So I just— to do something with your friends, that's that incredible that, uh, you love and that's successful. It's like, I don't think I'd ever be able to find that again.

Incredible. You said so many things. Um, I wanna double-click on one in particular, which is that you, so first of all, it's, I, I wanna maybe separately talk about the coach and the bad guidance you got because as a coach, of course I'm very interested in that.

Mm-hmm.

But sounds like you came to just understand that you could say to somebody like, hey, you're not doing your job. Or like, hey, you can't do that, or hey, I'm the boss, or whatever it is that you're able to say to each other. And I just have to tell you, it's very unusual for people to be able to talk to each other that way, and certainly co-founders. And a lot of drama comes up because you don't say the things early. And so then what happens is resentment occurs. How did you learn and how did everybody learn to talk like that together and to just say it?

I think through doing. And so we definitely, I remember when I started, it feels so alien now. It's like I just wasn't good at saying, I would be afraid to have these conversations. And so even like to fire somebody, it was like, so it was like almost calling my co-founder, like, could you, could you do it? Like, I don't, I don't want to, you know? And now it's kind of, especially operating in New York, you just get used to these difficult conversations because they happen every day. There's some type of customer complaint. There's a vendor that we're fighting with. There's like, the bank, or you just get more— it's like, what's it like, the exposure therapy? Yes, exposure therapy. Yeah, so no, no specific skill, but just having to do it and having to do it out of anger and resentment. And then learning, like, my pattern is get resentful, get resentful, get resentful, get angry, get ashamed and guilty that I was angry. And then because I was angry, then like go back on the actual important thing I had to say and like, you know, angry, say something, you're not doing your job, but in an angry way. And then like, oh, I'm really sorry I said that, maybe like you are doing it, but halfway. And so that was a pattern I have, like a likability pattern, um, one that I worked with a coach to like identify. And I just realized like anger is fine, you know. Um, so I think it was, it was that. And then having with my wife and my friends just more used to saying of these kind of things. Like it was easier in some ways that they were friends to just be honest. Like my sister works for me also. Um, our next layer down after the co-founders also have co-founder energy. So it's my sister and then someone who's worked for our family for 10 years in the restaurant space. So just a lot of earned trust. And with my sister, it's like, hey, this sucks. You know, and it's not like, or she'll tell me like you're being an idiot. So it's not like, that's just how we grew up bickering a little bit. So it's, there's no like grudge around it. So I would say the learnings were, this is hard. I didn't know it normally. It was something that I learned through experience. So that's one. And then the second is just that loop of resentment explosion. Now I just try to immediately just say, hey, this isn't good enough. And then the third learning around it was trying not to tie emotions to it. At first, and I'm still not, I'm not as good at this as I could be. I wouldn't even say I was good at it, but it's just not letting emotions get in the way, like getting angry. Like I would be, oh, this person did this thing. They're out to destroy my business. Like, how dare they? You know, how dare they not care about my business as much as me? And I would get angry, you know, that would be my first. And it was really a feeling of fear. So oftentimes triggered by a competitor might come, or we're going to run out of money, or this isn't going to work. I'm going to lose everything. I'm going to lose my business and I'm going to be broke. And so that's, that's my pattern as well. And so learning to isolate from that pattern and just say something like, it's okay to say you're not doing a good job. Here's my expectations. And that took a while to learn also.

Yeah. It's your permission. In fact, that's your job.

Yeah.

I had Scott Belsky on my podcast and he said, really had to tell himself, do your freaking job. And that is like when you have to do hard things as a CEO.

Yeah. And it kind of sucks because, uh, I was before like conflict avoidant and just kind of a nice person and like a bit of a people pleaser. And so that is like anti-CEO. You're almost better off, to be honest, if you're a psychopath and like you don't care what people think at all. Like I, I kind of, I listen to a lot of founders podcasts, which I think you do also. And 99 out of 100 are pretty maladapted and they just, one thing they have in common is a lot of times they don't care about people. Some do, but a lot don't. It makes the job easier. And so that's been an adaptation is learning like, okay, this is the job, but you need to armor because you're saying hurtful things to people almost every day. So it's just, I sometimes feel sick from the amount of conflict and problems. And I felt like I've had to armor up a lot.

How do you armor up?

Just sort of drink coffee and like, hey, we're going into battle. This is battle. It doesn't feel as smooth, which I think is probably the next step. It's felt like the whole 5 years has been, we're not going to make it. This isn't going to work. Oh my God. Next thing, next thing. We had one unit in Toronto and then signed 3 leases at once.

You can take a minute. Robbie's getting choked up.

I don't know what happened. My throat just got really dry.

That happens a lot to me, to be honest with you. You can take my water too if you need it.

Okay. Yeah, we signed 3 leases at once. So in Toronto, Toronto was working and we signed 1 in Toronto and 2 in New York and really went into some challenging times financially. We miss the budgeting in New York was completely off based on what we had to build in Toronto. New York's like extremely challenging to build and learn. And so we were out of money, running out of money for kind of 18 months. And it took about 3 years to get Williamsburg open, which was, you know, from when we started looking in Toronto to get when we started looking after first unit to get these 3 open, it's taken about 3 years. Williamsburg just launched a month ago and now they're all profitable and it's like, okay, we, we made it through. Um, but it was extremely challenging to get there.

Yeah. I mean, I would like to hear a little more about that because I know that you opened in Toronto and it felt like, I think it went sort of smoothly. Mm-hmm. Then you came to New York and I think you underestimated the budget and had other challenges. New York is very challenging and permit issues. And then I think you really overextended and then you had to take out home mortgages. Is that right?

Yeah.

So walk us through what happened and then walk us through, like, what did you tell yourself in these moments of despair?

So we had, I had been introduced to an external financial services firm and also an external operations firm. And a learning for me was my pattern. I don't, I don't know what I'm doing. I need to find experts. You know, or I'm nervous about what I should do. I should— somebody knows more than me, which I don't do that anymore. But it was, you know, in Toronto, it was our backyard. We self-funded everything. We built it. It felt really good. And then for some reason, when it was New York, there's a bit more fear. Hey, this is the big leagues. We need to use the biggest architect. You know, we need to use people who've done this before and have worked with the city. And so we got suckered into using these like brand name firms, wanted to go fast, wanted to have quality and not doing what we had done. In Toronto. And then also hiring senior people for the first time because I thought, oh my God, I don't know what I'm doing. These people will help me scale faster. I hired a senior leader in operations who didn't live in Toronto, and that's insane. You know, like a remote operations leader in a brick-and-mortar space that isn't in the city. It doesn't make any sense. And the financial services firm, they didn't have experience going cross-border. So learning was like hire people that do the job. But at the time I was taking advice and I thought, Oh, I don't know. Like, I don't trust myself. I'll abscond responsibility. And so we're opening in New York. We find out we're using these huge architects. There's a bathhouse code here. They miss it. We sign a lease and we're not even able to do co-ed change rooms like we have in Toronto. So the whole space is like completely wrong. End up having to lease out the basement to suspend the pools into the basement to make it work. It doubles the cost. While this is happening, we're doing multiple builds at once. And so, you know, I get a call saying, hey, there was this construction invoice we marked as paid a few months ago. Guess what? It wasn't actually paid. You, it went from like, it was kind of, we were like a couple million bucks short to finish the build.

Yeah.

But it went from having enough to just squeak by to like, hey, you're actually going to be out of money in 20 days.

Oh.

And I was like, what the fuck are you talking about? You know? And so mistake, external firm. So I had to let them go while also letting go of this operations person. While moving to New York, no childcare. We were living 16 people in a house, a 6-bedroom house together to launch. And so it was a very intense time. It was like, okay, well, I can't raise any equity in 2 weeks and like, I don't know what to do. And so I was trying to manage on my own, the operations, the finance, rebuild both teams, no HR team. With no money, with construction people calling me every day, "Hey, where's the money?" Saying like, "We can't pay." Like, not, "We can't pay you," but like, "Finish the job or you're not getting paid," kind of thing. It's like, "Hey, if you don't finish this, the company's going bankrupt and like, you're not going to get anything." So I was like extremely uncomfortable with smoking a vape all day long. Like in the streets, I probably cried like 3 or 4 times. However, the whole time this was happening, Toronto is just crushing it. And so it's doing super well. And so it was like, you know, there's people falling in love and crying in class and the reviews are the best in the world. And dude, like the experience is world-class. And so I would go to the experience myself and, you know, I'm in the space in New York. It's almost done and it looks phenomenal. And we're hosting, we couldn't get our permits either initially. So that was a learning of how the permitting process works, but we're having people in illegally every night, you know, friends, friends of friends. We had 18,000 people before we opened and, you know, for tours. And so I just saw their faces and said, okay, this is going to work. Yeah, we just have to get it open. And also so confident in it that we weren't even willing to like sell equity in the business. Like we could have done that at like a shitty valuation in a forced way because the business was working. I just didn't want to do that. And so myself, my co-founders, my partner, we all signed personal guarantees to get a loan and then it wasn't enough. So I asked my mom called her and just said, hey, can you, my mom and dad, can you put your house up for mortgage? We're in like a jam here. But we believe in this thing. You can see it and they believe in it too and they go to the space. And so they did that. It was really uncomfortable and felt pretty shitty and still does. I mean, that should be done early next year because this year is quite profitable. So I think we can get rid of these personal guarantees.

But you still have them.

We still have them. So it doesn't feel I mean, but also like the business is making money. We're looking at even new space, like more new spaces. And so it's, it's like going really well. So it's, but it's uncomfortable. Like I wake up, I'll have nightmares probably once every 2 weeks of like, oh my God. And so in some ways there's just no option. Like it has to work. So it has to work for all of us. Like the boats are burned. We've made that decision. You know, we decided when the first one was open that we were going to go the path to make a big business. We took investor money and that's the path that we're on. So there's no option. It's not a lifestyle business. It's like something that is going to grow. And then, you know, we doubled down by putting up our entire net worth into it as well. So some days it's very, yeah, it's, it's, it's scary.

Yeah, I can imagine. So how, what's that like when it's scary and what do you tell yourself and how do you You know, what's the story you narrate that lets you keep going when it's scary?

Well, there's just no other option. And this is kind of, you know, like I, again, listened to a lot of these founder stories and they do it often. You know, like it's kind of, it's kind of 75, 80%, especially in non-tech businesses where you are not raising venture funding and you're doing it yourself. Like this is what it takes. So it's partly okay. It's part. And then I go and I look at it, you know, I literally use the product. I watch people share. I look at their faces and I feel better and it's exciting to like build something so incredible, you know, that changes people's lives. So that if it, if it, if this was something I didn't care about, it would be almost impossible, I think, because it's just, it's just too, it would be very challenging to have this level of stress, but not actually like see the results live. So that for me, and then, you know, I'll do, um, I stopped using psychedelic medicines for a long time when I became a dad and and almost broke down. And so when I need to now, maybe once every 6 months, I'll go and like do that as a reset and let stress out of my body. And I find that to be not as like a, hey, this changed me forever spiritually, which does happen for people, but for me it's just like, this is a 6-month reset. I look at it the same way as I would time in nature or healthy eating or going to the gym, and like it reduces my stress pretty significantly.

Yeah.

Um, but yeah, I'm also— I'm scared, you know, that's in my body and it feels uncomfortable.

Yeah, I can imagine. Yeah, most of the time. Yeah. And I think that's also just so realistic, actually. Founders, but actually just a lot of people are just scared much of the time, most of the time. And I guess I just really cue into your own self-awareness about it. And I think that comes from all the kind of work that you've done. Why were you drawn to that work? And then how did you kind of develop the self-awareness?

I think, well, I was an addict. So like, you know, would disappear. Always very high performer, so studied hard. I could focus. I just like intensity and stimulation and have been like that and have chosen intense careers, finance, startups, stuff like that. But then also drugs and alcohol. I love stimulation. And so at some point in time, it was like, hey, this is ruining my life. I would disappear. I'd would go on 60-hour benders and like legit wake up somewhere I didn't know with like out my wallet. Wow. So around 30, that's not really cool anymore. And it was, hey, this is really, it's hard for me just to live my life. And so I started getting interested in how I could find help. And so I tried Cocaine Anonymous and that didn't feel right for me. It felt like I wasn't addicted enough. Like it was a very, you know, if you go to the— it's very hardcore what people are saying. I'm like, well, I'm not that big of an addict, so this didn't feel right for me. And then I tried meditation, so 10-day Vipassana retreat. And I did that because I was living in Israel and it was just by donations. It's like, oh, okay, well, we can go do this thing. And I was going to go home for Christmas. And I was like, oh, I don't want to pay for the flight, so I'll do this. It ended in New Year's and it's like a fresh beginning. There I learned about psychedelics and I got really into researching psychedelic for smoking, drinking cessation. And that's the one that like really worked. And because that worked, there's a lot of stuff there around introspection, setting an intention, group share. And I started being, oh, this is important work. And after that, in the communities I was going and going to bathhouse and crypto, people are very into this personal development and self-help. And so I was just kind of like, okay, well, things seem to be going well. What else can I do? And so I tried And I tried Landmark and I tried Hoffman. I tried Tony Robbins and I'm just interested in trying things. And so I think, however, that wasn't the goal. I just did meditation because I didn't want to go home, you know? And it really— that was the first time I felt inquiry is important. And now I still feel like I'm not able to change my reactions, but there's awareness of these patterns. And if I look at where my life was versus 10 years ago, like, I mean, I'm married, I'm a dad. Created this amazing business. I'm sober. You know, 10 years ago, I was waking up under park benches. And so just kind of like, okay, these things are working.

Yeah.

Lean into them more.

Yeah.

And I feel it's nice to know yourself. Yeah, I feel it's powerful to know yourself. So when things come up, these patterns I had mentioned, okay, here comes a pattern.

Yeah.

You know, I think you need to do that to be a proper, to be a leader.

[Speaker:ELISA COHN] I, of course, you're speaking to the choir here, of course. And I agree with that. I think that people don't always make that connection between knowing yourself. And by the way, and I know you've mentioned twice now, and I know that you mean Founders Podcast, David Senrau, who I'm also a big fan of. And I went to his events and I'm gonna talk later about him being a kind of a cult leader. I think you're a cult leader too, you know, sort of like in the preacher. But actually he would say self-reflection is not helpful. And Elon Musk and all And others that he's highlighted, you know, Jensen Huang and others are not that big in self-reflection.

Yeah.

And yet they're, you know, quote unquote successful. They have a different style than you. And I know that they've inspired you in many ways. How do you marry those two thoughts?

I don't necessarily think self-reflection is important to be like a spiritual person that's treating your employees well to find success. But I think it's important that you understand your emotions. And so what I mean by that is, hey, am I making this decision out of fear? Am I making this decision out of ego? And so an example is there was a copycat of our business in London and I got really pissed initially. I never built anything that people would copy. And so even just watching that unfold, the first one I was so upset about thinking like, oh, this is going to sound crazy, but I'm going to go throw a brick through their window. And that was the first one. And then it's happened now, I don't know, 20 times, whatever. And I don't I don't feel that way anymore, but it was fear-based. Like, oh, this thing's being copied. I'm afraid. Is mine not good enough? Is it going to put me out of business? Like, it's crazy. Like, those aren't real things. And so why am I thinking that? Because, you know, I lost my company and I was actually broke. I'm very like scarcity mindset of how I grew up. And so it's important to note when that's coming up. And so, you know, it was kind of when that one opened in London, I was like, oh, I'm going to go open in London. I'm going to go beside them and put them out of business. Crush them. Yeah. But that is stupid. So it just—

You'll get arrested.

Yeah. Well, I mean, we could compete legally. But I just think when everybody has flaws, like superpowers and then on the dark side of superpowers are flaws. And so I just think it's nice to be aware of when you're in a mode that is not not serving you. Another one that I have is this anger pattern I had mentioned. And so what does that create? It creates fear amongst staff to share important feedback. And then it creates like a— I like a debate culture, but I don't think people should be afraid. And so I just think it's more important to know how you are making decisions. I know why David says that. He's just like, if you're reflecting a lot, you're not focused on what you should do and you should just do the thing. I was listening to the Bill Gates episode today and he He was an asshole. He was legitimately saying to people, that's the stupidest fucking idea I've ever heard and stuff like that. And all of these people you mentioned are winning without any type of culture. I think it depends.

Well, they have a culture. They have a culture of excellence, you could say. And also harshness is not a problem. Elon Musk and Jensen Huang and certainly Bill Gates and Steve Jobs. Yeah.

That's who do you want to be? I listen to the Elon podcast. So there's 3 recently ones that are all excellent. It's How Elon Works. And I listen to that and I'm like, oh my God, this is amazing. I need to be way more hardcore. And I'm like, well, do I? Like, this guy's like, that's not the vibe. Like, we're building a hospitality company.

Yeah.

And we have a lot of, um, frontline workers. And so what are they going to get excited about? Like a place where you're an asshole? No. You know, so yeah. And that's just my vibe too. Like, I'm not an asshole. So it's hard to pattern yourself. Like, those are idols to me because I love entrepreneurship, but that's not me. So I'm trying to find out where I land. And I want people to feel like— most of our staff retention at HQ is amazing. They've worked here since the beginning. And so it's like, okay, lean into that. How does that feel? You know, so I think we're in a good medium Like I listened to Steve Jobs also, which I was pretty inspired by how much he cared about the products. I was like, okay, that's more me than Elon Musk, but still doesn't feel quite right. And then I listened to James Dyson and maybe, maybe he's an asshole or not. I don't know. But that felt really right with how we're running, which is just like best product differentiated. Everything is about being different and unique. And I was like, wow, that's really cool. So for us, our culture is definitely detail-oriented and excellent, you know, to the point of where everyone's empowered to to call out something that's not good enough, hard in terms of hours. And so we'll say at first, like, yeah, this is our lives. We will all put in the same amount of effort, if not more. If you want to work here and like succeed and do well, that's what it's going to take. And so we do have that in common. But then there's also elements of responsibility as well. And so we allow, you know, our person who runs our paid ads was an intern when they started. Our manager in New York now started as a cleaner in my garage. And so in 5 years, she's like probably number 3 or 4 operationally in the company. Our area manager was an assistant, assistant manager for a period of time. So I think giving young people a lot of responsibility when they're— giving them room to run is really important, but then fun. So we have a lot of crew sweats, we do a lot of offsites, so stuff like that. And then the fifth would be they really care about the product. And I think that's where you have some bleed where I want to work at Othership because I love Othership. And it's like, well, that experience is for the journeyers to deliver that. It's hard. And if someone comes and says, well, I'm worried about burnout, this is just not a place for you. And so I think marrying hard intensity but with kindness is kind of what we're trying to do. And we'll see if it works.

I go back and back and forth. Yeah, I can imagine. When you say you go back and forth, you mean as in like how kind to be as compared to how— because when I was listening before we got together, I know the rigor with which you put the classes together. I know the rigor. And you could tell us a little bit about that with how you really expect people to deliver. You were just talking about the conversations you're willing to have with your co-founder. I also want to point out, what you're doing may sound kind of woo-woo to people, like kind of out there, kind of spiritual psychedelic stuff, woo-woo, you know? And like, you are not a woo-woo guy. And so at all, right? And so it's just fascinating to me also that like, and I think it's important for everyone to recognize that you can actually give an experience and to really believe in all this stuff around emotions and about people opening up and like kind of even humanity, with, but still expect excellence. What are your thoughts about that? How do you think about that?

I mean, that's what we're trying to do. Exactly. It's like expectation of excellence because we're delivering something. Like if I go and use the product, I know what excellence is. I've been to a thousand classes and it's just, I know when it's excellent and that's what we're demanding. People are paying, it's a high price point. And so we want them to have that feeling. If they don't feel safe, if the music's not right, if the language isn't perfect and like, we're so careful Employees say this all the time. People will say like, oh, it doesn't feel like the way it should for the emotional experience we're delivering. And I'm like, that's because we're delivering the experience and not doing it. So that'll always be challenging, but we walk the walk. We're the ones who, my co-founders are the lead guides. They created all the programming themselves. It's not like we said, hey, there's an opportunity here to make money. Let's hire some yoga instructors and do this We made it from scratch because we really, really care about the product. And I think in that way it's similar to some of the founders you mentioned. Like, these people are obsessed. They care so much, and that's what leads to a good product. And I think that's when you can demand a lot from your team. So we start every meeting with a story about transformation that has happened just to show like, hey, this isn't a bathhouse. Look at this shit that is happening here, you know? So, um, Somebody had left a suicide note in the space, and usually we have resources for that, but one of our managers took it upon themselves, which like, it's not an ask from us because of how intense it is, but called the person and said, hey, they've tried to take their life a few times in the last month, and called this person, invited them in, gifted them a membership, and like, you know, to this date prevented the suicide. And so that's fucking hardcore. And so we share these messages because that's what we're trying to do. And so I think it inspires people to be more excellent than they ever have because of what we're delivering. So on top of that, so that's one, it's like just leading with meaning. And I think when you do that, you can drive people harder because they care. Like our team really cares. It blows my mind because I think we care. So it's like contagious, you know? And then you said like, woo woo. Yeah, I mean, I'm a founder. My partner was a D1 hockey player. We're, you know, I used to work in finance. None of us come from the world of spirituality. And the goal was always people like us to reduce stress. And so we've cut out, you know, we have a class on gratitude. And to make that class, my co-founder listened to an Andrew Huberman podcast on gratitude and then read every paper he referenced. In that podcast, he spent 100 hours doing research on like scientifically how do you build gratitude in your mind and body. And the class is written with 100 hours of prep, you know, and then the music is programmed to the lighting, is programmed to— it's like, it's like creating a play. Um, so I think that level of detail plus ensuring that there's never a chakra, you know, energies, and not that I'm against that stuff, but it's just making it accessible so Hey, you're a professional. This is going to help you de-stress. Here are the reasons why, but in a way that feels like spectacle.

Yeah. And to your point about language, that's one thing that you've really worked on, sort of quote-unquote branding. And you've really been, I think, meticulous about other elements of your brand. You really talked about building brand fanatics. So how do you think about brand and how do you think about your own role in terms of being, again, sort of the, as I've heard you called, the cult leader of that brand? Brand.

Yeah, so I'd like to think, you know, Harry and Amanda are also cult leaders of the brand amongst the guides. And so I think it falls on all the co-founders to like do that work, and it's to continue every time to talk about the mission. So processing your emotions— I think we need better language for that specifically because I'm clear what that means, and it just means feel your emotions. So let's call it that. So it's feeling your emotions alone, uh, in a group with others, you know. So your own emotions, knowing who you are, but doing it witnessed by others. So it's like, does everything fall into that? So if it's a partnership, it's either us using our service at a premium partner. So maybe doing something at the Amon Spa, or it's bringing in experts like, you know, Brené Brown, somebody like you who's like a real expert to come in and talk about something in our space that hits that feeling or emotions with others. So I think about it like that. And I think about building the world when you're doing your brand and every touchpoint point you might have, whether it's your social posts, your email language, your text follow-up, the language at the front desk. You know, we have a magic moment called the powerful question. And so our staff is trained when you come in to ask you a question about why you are in and tailor the answer appropriately. So if someone says, hey, I'm coming in to train for a marathon, you know, or they say, I'm coming to look for a friend, but it's asking, really understanding why are you here and making you feel seen with a number of different responses. So like that is a brand touchpoint when you go into you know, the first thing you get handed is the towels. Towels are custom designed in Turkey. The specific dimensions of the towels are custom designed so they cover your body so that people feel safe when they're inside. There's not like this little towel and, you know, maybe you don't want your top being shown. You want to be able to wrap it around the whole space that, you know, exists. The lighting around every corner, the sight lines, even, you know, when you're using your shampoo, conditioner, soap, those smells are custom created by us. They match in each sauna. There's an ice ball filled with essential oils put over the stove, and a big part of the experience is the scent. And so we want that to carry into shower moment as well. And so we actually don't allow any partners for anything in the space. And so I've seen some premium fitness brands will use like Kiehl's or, you know, Aesop or whatever. And I personally, I think like, absolutely not. Like for us, it's, we will own everything in the space. We'll create every single touchpoint. Point. And I like that because you can't copy it. So, you know, okay, if you have ASAP, so does someone else. Like, no, we actually are making every single thing. We're thinking— we launched like 28 products this year, um, and they're good. They're, they're like really good products. And so the idea is to control even the tea in the space. Like, we make and have designed with a tea partner. So everything is branded. That's how I think about it. Every experience in your world is important. And then I also think about brand of like, how do you generate word of mouth? And so we'll put a lot of effort if someone's like, oh, I want to propose I knew my wife well, that is, and I learned this from Will Guidara and Danny Meyer and setting the table on unreasonable hospitality.

Yep. Two very well-known hospitality entrepreneurs.

Exactly. And everything in brand is story at the end of the day. And so it's how do you create storytelling moments? And I would almost spend whatever it takes to create a storytelling moment. And it's why we try to be a lot more, we don't talk about wellness. We don't really use that term too much. We don't talk about inflammation or immune system. We're very clear what we are not. And we stand for something. So there's other shitless people that fucking hate it. You know, like, oh, I hate the ice bath. It's a cult. It's weird. I have to share. I have to look in someone's eyes. This is cheesy. And like, yeah, if it's not for you, it's not for you. You know, so I think being like different just to be different is very important. Having something that you stand for, having something that people love and people hate. All of these, having a world that you build and own, all of those are like extremely important. Having a practice that has ritual that keeps you coming back. So products that we design, we hope that you take into your house to remind you of, you know, the sensation and bring it back. So all of those things I think about as brand touchpoints to create, like if you want to create a movement, you need feeling. That's harder than ever to make people feel something.

Totally. It's so fascinating. Did you just look like, again, we haven't really gotten into your background, but like you had your, you were in finance, you had your own startup, you were working in the Ethereum ecosystem, and you talked about your drug and alcohol, and you came to Toronto, and then you started this other ship. So you've had a lot of experiences in the world of work, in the corporate world, the startup world. Is that how you learned the importance of brand and like how to create a brand? Or is that something— how else did you learn that?

I think over time, just listening to, you know, I've probably listened to every single Founders episode. Yeah, just listen to how did other people do it, how do people do it with brands they like, and like what do I care about, and just being very detailed I mean, this might come from meditation practice, but being very detail-oriented with like how something is making me feel and why. So if I, you know, I was in our space in Williamsburg yesterday and I could immediately feel something was off when I'm sitting in the tea room, like immediately, you know, and I'm like, oh, we need a curtain there. There is a sight line and there's people showering and it's irritating that they're there. And like, oh, the sound in this place is off. And so I think a lot of people, you go into an experience You don't notice that consciously, but you notice it subconsciously. And so you're not feeling the right way. And so I think a lot about creating brand is just like, okay, how do I feel when I see this thing? And noting like every single thing is important. So I look at every single Instagram post with my wife and our team. And if the language is off, it's immediate call to her. I mean, our person is amazing who works on this stuff, but I like, you know, badgering her with like, hey, this hook not good. And then it's also like, well, we're not going to put something out like 10 ways to boost your nervous system. That's lame either. So it's like, hey, it doesn't have to be about the engagement. My barometer is like, do we like this? So I'll listen to some customer feedback. We'll obviously do tons of interviews, but it's just like, do we think it's good? And I think that's why it's helpful if the founder is creator of the product and the user, because you just know. And so it's like really one place I never looked for help, like I've looked for help in scaling operations and finance and HR, not trusted my gut in those things. But one place we've never ever looked for it, like we, for marketing, we do everything internal. We never use agencies. We tell our own story. We don't ask for help from a PR team. Like we tell the story for everything and then we use the product and we don't take advice. Like it's, it's our product. We know what is good. And so I just think it's kind of that. It's not like learning about like brand. It's kind of being in your space, being hyper vigilant with your product, understanding what's good and like controlling that maximally.

Yeah.

Um, and all these ideas I mentioned were just like, okay, I'm using the shower product and it's like, whatever. Wouldn't it be cool if it matched the smells of the ice ball? And then it was like so obvious, right? Just like, yeah, I think all that is downstream of like caring so much.

Yeah.

So you'd be embarrassed if you got an email in it and it was like, yeah, we have a 2 for $45 discount. Like, come get, you know, it's kind of It's like, ew, icky. Like, this is lame. But if you were just doing the thing to make money, like, you don't care, you know?

I think what you're talking about also is being attuned. That's what it sounds like to me. And that you've trained your ability to be attuned. And one thing you've also talked about is—

And that might come from your question before where you're just like, you know, you've done all these other experiences. And so it's like, what is good? And I think sometimes if you go to the fringes, you can find these things that have like an aha moment and you can bring them back into a more mainstream manner. And so like ice baths, you know, it was Wim Hof, that was that. Tow waving is from Afghus, which is like a less popular thing and what didn't exist in North America, but it was sort of growing in Germany. These group shares were coming from men's and women's work. So all of these things are like elements where, oh, and it's like being attuned to like like when you feel, yeah, the moment of, oh, this is amazing. Like, how do you bring those things in from different disciplines? So trying a lot of things and being attuned to something is really important, right?

Right, that totally makes sense. And also, to your point, I mean, I'm really hearing like you integrated a bunch of stuff. That is the point. You talk about differentiation, totally. And also, again, you're not really a gym, you're not really a bathhouse, you're like this experience made up of a whole bunch of different things, which is why it's kind of one of one. It's really, it's only, and that it brings in the collective that you've collected over the time and that you kind of are realizing these are the pieces that kind of make it up. It's very interesting. It's really well invented. It's invented.

But I don't even, it's not even invented in that like, I think people, oh, I had this great idea. And no, it's just actually, we've had 600,000 people through. I've been 1,000 times. I was doing it every day in my backyard. And so just slight improvement, smallest improvement, like my best day. This is going to sound insane, but last month my best day was I hated the shampoo bottles. Like the, we had a, so we had this beautiful custom shampoo. We have this nice sticker on it and it would degrade so quickly. So every time I go in, it would like look junky. And so my wife designed a laser cut, amazing shampoo bottle that's like branded Othership. And I saw it, then like that was the best moment of my week. You know, it was like, wow, we made this like slightly better. And it's just when you start, you don't have the bandwidth to make every tap and every tile. Like the tiles in our space are river stone, like they're pulled out of actual river and they're made a certain way to like, at first we didn't like how big they were. And so we had to find a very specific one that like felt a certain way on your feet. And so I just think if you, yeah, again, if you really care, the level of like little detail can make you so, makes me so happy. It's, it's crazy how, uh, yeah, like it's, it's crazy. I think it's, I think it's actually crazy, but it makes me so happy when like we, you know, I was telling you what I was doing last night. It was like testing sound because we want to have spatial sound in one of our saunas. And the idea of doing that was like, oh my God, I'm so excited.

You know, I love it. So one thing is that, you know, so you're being attuned and learning to trust your gut. Could you talk a little bit more about mistakes you made where you're like, oh, I hired this person I knew I shouldn't have and how you've kind of been on this journey of really making sure you trust trust your gut as it relates to the business elements that aren't just these, like, you know, these, these touchstones that you're talking about?

Yeah. So I think, um, being afraid to take responsibility is one mistake and wanting to get certainty or safety by, like, finding someone who's done the thing before, but then not be critical about it. Um, recently I've been working with somebody who who is just incredible. And so he had built 10 brick and mortar spaces in New York. He's also done franchising as well. So like did the thing. And so I think the big learning for me was like, if you're going to take advice, get it from someone who did the thing and is like doing it now. If they did the thing 10 years ago, not that valuable. So I think a mistake was trusting people who hadn't done the thing because I wanted them, I wanted someone else to take responsibility. And not ensuring they had done it recently. And then the mistake after that was being burned by that. And then so like, okay, I'm not going to trust any senior people. So we have a very junior team, which is really good in some ways. So that's something I really believe in is that hire very hungry people that are ultra bright, that have bias for action and are problem solvers and give them unlimited responsibility. Now that has, I had leaned too far in that direction and was like, okay, now we have all these people that don't know how to set priorities that requires more oversight. So now I've went back to like, okay, well, get help. Don't abscond responsibility. Think from first principles, but get people who've done this exact thing and who are excellent. And so I'm spending a lot more time now working with like people that are excellent. And I think we found some, you know, we rebuilt our finance team. The CFO we're working with built the team from scratch. I'm just starting to see both people came from really strong accounting firms. One had investment banking training and like what we can you know, proactively, all of a sudden we have this like labor per visit, like labor hour per visit metric that we weren't tracking before. And we realized like one ship is, you know, even though the labor numbers weren't that different, the labor per hour was quite different. And so we noticed like, hey, that's something to dig into. We can make cuts here. And I was like, oh my God, you know, having somebody who knows what they're doing driving a team is super helpful. So I've leaned back into, okay, senior people are good. But just ensure they're the right people, you know, because the price tag is so expensive for these businesses. So it's like you only have one shot and with junior person, you can hire 4 for the same amount and maybe one doesn't work, but 3 generally do. And so they can justify their pay much easier. So I think the power of like the right senior people is something I'm like kind of coming around to. I'm looking to hire a COO right now, kind of working through that process. Another mistake, which I'm not sure how to deal with yet, is just looking at what competitors are doing or like feeling fear around them. So every single person, I think it's very important to listen to a lot of history, entrepreneurship history, and just have all these, you know, it's one thing to read a stupid book written by a VC about like do XYZ. It's different to reading the biography, trying to get the ground truth. And even biographies are like obviously embellished sometimes depending on like what actually happened. But I think it's a at least a good barometer to start for learnings. Oh, I forgot what I was going to say there.

You were talking about coming around to senior people and recognizing that people who have done it before are important to you and that, you know, you sort of want— I think you want to find that balance of someone who's actually done it before and also young, hungry people.

Yeah. And I had something I was going to share something about learnings from reading biographies before, but it's escaped me. Like another mistake I made.

What other— I guess I'm curious how else your role as CEO has changed in the past 5 years.

Yeah, it's changed pretty significantly. So what I would do at first is just get people in the door by whatever means. And so, you know, go to a conference, talk about the thing, go to a physio clinic, like door-to-door, invite people in, be in the space, ensure the experience is excellent, be with the journeyers. And I just can't move the needle doing that anymore. So when we opened in New York, it was like every night, be in the space, bring media through, tell the story, tell tell the story, tell the story, which I think is valuable. But at some point, you know, I think we have 200,000 customers now. So even if I can impact 50 people, it's just not enough. So, you know, and doing that stuff takes time. And so I'm naturally storyteller, marketer, love that kind of stuff. And I'm drawn towards it and I want to be involved, but I just don't have the bandwidth and it's not like the best use of my time. So being able to let go of things that take up time that I like has been challenging. And then I've also found myself of going into different things because they're on fire and realizing like, hey, that's actually okay. Is that like stuff's breaking everywhere? Pick where it's breaking the most and like ruthlessly prioritize. So I'm getting a little better at that, but I'm still not prioritizing tight enough things that can really move the needle.

Yeah.

So, you know, this week why I'm here is to look at new spaces and then talk to developers about building out spaces for us without us putting up the money. And so it's like if I can get two of those developer deals that can worth $50 million in value to the company. So it's okay. That's most important. So that was a learning of like, things are broken. Focus on what you need to fix. Ruthlessly prioritize. Don't gravitate to what you really like.

Yeah. Has that been hard to let go of what you really like? Yeah.

Because then like, why am I doing this? You know? So that was the second learning though comes off that, which I worked through my coach with. And he was like, oh, you're not an operator. And I was so offended by it. Like, I was so pissed. I was like, fuck, I'll show you. Like, I'm an operator, man. Like, what do you mean? Like, of course I'm an operator. And then Started talking through what a, you know, this is where the COO idea came from. Started talking through what an operator actually does. And I'm like, yeah, I don't want to look at a legal contract. I don't want to look at our HR policy. I don't want to do the performance reviews. Like, I don't care about any of this stuff, you know, and why I'm having to focus on this because I don't have the right people in these spaces. So that's another power of like hiring senior people that can do these things. So then I can go back to the stuff that I love and I do actually love selling the product. It's just selling the product to individuals is no longer the goal. Well, it's, you know, how do I get the next 10 developers super interested? It's really a real estate business at the end of the day. And so that's where my power lies. How do I think of what we're going to do strategically? So is it, you know, 15,000? Is it 20,000? Is it 30,000 mega units? Like I told you about what we're doing just before this. So that is a huge change for me from like doing everything to kind of letting go and then to hiring people I can trust so I can then focus on what my superpower is. And then being okay with like, oh, I'm actually not good at this and don't need to be. So that's like a this year thing. That was the biggest learning I had this year was like, I'm not an operator and that's okay. And I don't care to be, and it doesn't even mean what I thought it meant. Um, yeah, that's a good one. Yeah.

It's so, um, I think it's so freeing, like the idea of you were insulted and then you realized, oh, actually it's very freeing to not be an operator. Yeah. Um, Rob, just a few more questions. Have you experienced imposter syndrome?

You know, in this one, it's interesting just because we built the thing. So it's like, I'm sure if you were designing something, this is a stupid example, but like, you know, if you're building rockets and you've never done it before and there's like a rocket engineer and like, oh, they probably know more than me, but like there's not really someone designing emotional experiences in groups and hot and cold. So I actually do feel like the world leading expert in this experience just because it's never really been done before. So I didn't feel like I always, we always as a team felt like this is the best experience in the world. It doesn't exist. We can bring it to New York. No one can do it better than us. And like, I think that's why we were willing to mortgage our houses in the first place where, so around the product, I never really felt like, hey, I don't know what I'm doing, but around being a CEO. Yeah. I mean, I think my whole story is like, oh, I needed to find a coach. I wanted to get advice on what I should do, and that led to a lot of mistakes, but also learning. So overall, where I am now, I feel good about. So now I feel less imposter syndrome, but I did have it before, and I think now it's like, no, let's go. I think I can figure it out.

Well, that's powerful. You really healed from imposter syndrome. What advice do you have for founders when they are overcoming or confronting their own imposter I was trying to think what changed.

I don't know. I mean, maybe I'm saying that and it's not true also. So it could be like, I think, because just today I feel particularly confident, but then, and things are going quite well and we sign a bad lease in a year from now and things aren't going well and it's like, fuck, I don't know. Like sometimes I'll feel like, hey, why am I doing this? And someone could do it better. Am I the right person? 100%. But then I'll think of what my superpowers are, I guess. And it's like, no, like, you know, I also guess for other founders, going back to Founders Podcast, what's inspiring is like these founder-led businesses are always the best.

Yeah.

You know, always like all of these stories are about founders that lead businesses and they know the products. And so that to me is irreplaceable. And I think for all our co-founders It's like you can't be replaced because people, they could scale something that exists, but knowing the product intimately is— so maybe that's the way to beat imposter syndrome is just know that that's what makes you special is how well you know the product. But that could be wrong too. So I don't have a strong answer for that.

That's good. It's a journey. That's the point about imposter syndrome. It's definitely a journey. What do you wish you would know earlier on your journey?

It's like never done. It's never done. So it's just 6 years in, doesn't really feel easier even though certain things are easier. Just the problems have changed. I would say that my life's better, but like the level of stress is relatively the same and like, that's okay. That's like what we signed up for. So I don't know that that ever changes. I'm trying to, okay. One thing I heard recently, I haven't like implemented it, but I heard from Sam Altman on a podcast, which I think is good to share because it just, you know, he's like, these guys are the, okay, two good stories. So I was telling my sister about maybe one of the founders podcasts, Elon Musk. And she was just like, listen, like if when you go watch a tennis match, are you like, hey, look at, you know, Federer or Alcaraz hitting that forehand. Like I should do that. Like you're comparing yourself to like the best guy in the world. Like why should you be that I thought that was pretty interesting. It's like just something I knew that like, hey, you're good enough. Like you're not going to be the best. It takes time. And then the other one was like, oh, all these guys learn that over time. So even Sam Altman, who's around my age but has done this for 20 years, is saying like he's afraid. He doesn't know what he's doing, you know, at OpenAI. And he was just saying like his thought process now is he imagines himself as, you know, an 80-year-old looking back on these challenges as like the most exciting time. At some point you won't have them anymore. Live. So I heard that, and then he was also like, yeah, there people are trying to compete with us, but like, obviously we're going to win. So it's like, okay, that's a good vibe. Like, that's, you know, hey, we're going to compete, we're here, that's what it is. Yeah, let's fucking go. But also, at some point, this won't be stressful anymore. And like, that practice— I mean, I heard this a couple weeks ago and haven't really put it into practice, but I think it's— I like directionally that story of thinking back and just kind kind of putting yourself in your future self.

Yeah.

And just like, look, it's like, there's so much excitement here.

Yeah.

You know, it's afraid, but it's also like, I feel alive like every day. So it'd be really nice to look back and say, sometime I won't feel this anymore. And it's, it'll probably be sad.

Yes. That's a really good point. Um, I like the idea of, you know, for all of us, we have our 90-year-old self coming and we're going to look back on these problems and be like, I wish I had those problems. Wish I had those problems. Last question. What advice do you have for other founders as they embark on their journey to grow into leaders?

I like this line, um, audacity, the key to audacity is like bringing more audacity or something. It's like a, it's like a quote is just like be more and more yourself and whatever happens, like double down, triple down. That's probably stupid advice in some cases also, but it's I just have found value in being more and more myself and being more and more unfiltered. And I think it's really hard to operate in a place where you're not being yourself and that is your superpowers. You're the only one of you. So I like this idea of just, okay, developer said no to a $1 million TI check, but maybe they'll say yes to a $5 million loan. Let's be even bigger. Maybe it's not even a developer, maybe it's a family office. They're going to give us $40 million. And like, just kind of when people are saying no, like, can you lean in and just be more audacious? And I've seen that work really well for us specifically. And so I like, I like that piece of advice.

I love it. Be more audacious. Robbie, we've talked for 90 minutes. I could talk for 90 more. I love what you're building. I love your vibe as you're building it. I can't wait to continue watching Othership grow.

Why don't you tell everybody where they can find Yeah, the biggest thing if you vibed with this convo is come to the space. So we're in New York, in Brooklyn, Flatiron, in Toronto, in Yorkville and King Street. And so just like othership.us and you can follow me on LinkedIn or Twitter.

Amazing.

Robbie DeBent. Yeah.

Amazing. Thanks Robbie. Great to see you.

Thank you.

Thanks for listening to From Startup to Grownup. If you like what you heard, give it a review on Apple Podcasts so other people can find it. And if If you know of a founder or someone else who is meant to be on this podcast, drop me a line through my website, alisacohn.com.