116: Gina Bianchini, Founder of Mighty Networks, Stop Building an Audience. Build Community Instead [ENCORE]

We don't have policies, we don't have rules, we make agreements. We're all human beings with agency. It almost sounds like it's a cult, it's not. But it's, you know, we're all human beings with agency. And the way that you build a human system is through a series of agreements. And as managers or leaders of a company, bottoms up, over offsites, we have laid out a series of agreements that are common.

What are some examples?

First and foremost, it is about being clear with how you want or need to be managed to do your very best work. So it's not managers have to read your mind. One of the agreements that we make is like, you'll speak up because we, especially in a remote company, I won't know if you need something unless you say it.

Welcome back. This is From Startup to Grownup.

My name is Alisa Cohn, and today's guest is Gina Bianchini. Gina is the co-founder and CEO of Mighty Networks, a platform where creators, entrepreneurs, and brands build their own digital communities, courses, and memberships. I met Gina at TED last year, and in my short few days with her there, I learned so much from her that I had to have her on the podcast. Gina is an expert in building community, so of course I asked her to get into the details of how to build community, what works and what doesn't work. You'll take a ton away whether you're building a community online or in real life. We also talked about what it's like to build a company, something she knows an awful lot about as a serial entrepreneur. Gina and I discussed her management philosophy, why she prefers agreements to policies, and what she looks for when she's hiring executives. We also talk about the importance of managing your energy as a founder or as a leader, and we get into the specifics of how Gina manages her own energy and her time. This is such a rich discussion. Filled with some deep thinking and practical tools. So please enjoy my incredible conversation with Gina Bianchini, co-founder and CEO of Mighty Networks.

Gina, welcome to the show. I'm so excited.

Thank you for having me. I feel like I'm like a fangirl that like feels like I just got brought up on stage. I'm like having that moment.

All guests should be as expressive as you. So fantastic. Gina, let's give a little background about how you and I originally met. We met at TED. Paint the picture of us meeting at TED.

Well, Jenny had messaged me. Jenny Blake had messaged me.

Jenny Blake, yeah.

Because I'd been on her podcast and was like, hey, I'm at TED. I think you're going to be here. Be great to see you. Amazing. And I didn't get in that night, so I walked in. I didn't know, you know, I didn't know anybody. I hadn't seen anybody. I didn't— Jenny and you were the very first people that I ran into, and you both were so warm and so welcoming that for the next 3 days I just was with you guys. And yeah, it was incredibly special. And I feel incredibly grateful that I got to spend 3 days with you and with Jenny and see through your eyes TED, which I had not been to TED in I think it was like 12 or 13 years. So it was just an incredible experience. And there's just something about being able to go through an experience with other people. And it just felt like we knew each other from the very, like, forever.

Yeah, I totally agree with that. And you were like a vision coming towards both of us, and it was so fun. We're here to talk today about you and your journey with Mighty Networks. What was the founding insight of Mighty Networks?

That's a great question because it really was an extension of my mission going back to my prior company to Mighty. So if anything, it was the belief that community was an area that, if anything, social media had bastardized and co-opted in ways that I did not believe in. And it wasn't that I created Mighty in spite of or in reaction to social media, but it was really around a fundamental belief that community is the most essential ingredient in us being able to realize results and transformation in our lives, to be able to live the life that we want to live. And really be able to break through misconceptions of what we're capable of. And every important experience in my life had come from being a part of very tight-knit communities, being a part of teams. And when I founded Mighty, it was really with the belief that I was not done crafting and putting out there in the world what I hoped and believed would be a deeper, more meaningful, but also radically more valuable experience for the people who created these communities, as well as the members who joined these communities. And that was where we started and where we have evolved to even in the last 6 months. Yeah. Is that the North Star hasn't changed, but it's gotten sharper and sharper in terms of, you know, what's now possible. And what we can now become.

It sounds like you've always been interested in how people work in group dynamics. Where does that come from? What's an early experience that kind of shows that, or you remember that?

Well, certainly I grew up in a tight-knit community at a time and a place. You know, I grew up in Silicon Valley before it was what is today's Silicon Valley. You know, Apple was not yet a thing. Today, in my hometown of Cupertino, it is Cupertino in many respects. But, you know, my grandparents had moved to Cupertino in the late '40s, early '50s, and opened a nursery and created Cupertino. It was all farmland. It was all orchards. There were 9 families that came together and just basically said, "Hey, let's create a town. Let's create a city. Create schools and what those are like. And so, I, you know, I grew up when people, you know, like my parents would have an interest or a passion or something they wanted to explore, they joined a club. And whether that was for model, you know, Model A Ford cars, or whether that was for guinea pigs, or whether that was for, you know, anything in between. And then for me growing up, I was always much more attracted to team sports than I was to, individual sports. I just liked the challenge, but I also liked the leadership, probably, if I'm probably being honest, is that opportunity was always really important to me. So, I was drawn, the most sort of easy and tangible way for me to understand people and people's systems was through really being attracted to politics. And politics, you know, in the '70s and '80s was a different thing to be attracted to than like what it is in 2023. But I was really specifically fascinated by this idea of cultural change and how organizations and organisms of people go from believing one thing to believing something else. And what was that process? And just trying to absorb as much as I could through reading biographies and through sort of the stories of people is kind of how I continue to learn in many respects. When I want to tackle a new topic or when I want to learn more about an industry or some other dynamic, I'll start with biographies. So that was, that was what was the easiest thing for me to see and understand. It's just a very clear thread and storyline for me, or through line of my story, from the fact that, you know, I came from a family that showed up and bought land in Cupertino and like started a nursery and then was like, oh, where are the other nurseries? And maybe we should be organizing the other nurseries into, you know, a local chamber of commerce. And how do we have clubs? And what are the social and the community components of all of the different things that we're doing? And then how does that translate into education? And how does that translate into, you know, today, fast forward and the things that my grandparents or parents did in the real world is now something that I get to work on in terms of digital communities and courses and memberships and challenges and all the things that we enable through Mighty. And being able to enable them under someone's brand for their own purpose, given their passion and interest, it feels like an extension of where I've come from, which also is really nice because it is super grounding for me. As well.

What do you mean grounding?

I mean, when I am sitting there asking myself the question of like, am I good at this? You know, like, is this the most rational thing for me to be doing with my life? You know, I, I come back to the fact that hell yeah, this is what I want to be doing and how I want to be doing it. And I feel really grounded in my mission. I feel really grounded in my purpose. I feel really grounded in where we're going to go next, but I'm super hungry to be able to do more and more for what I hope are the right reasons.

Yeah, I love that. You know, I want to talk more about like actually some of the tactics around community because I think that you're such an expert on that. I think it'd be really helpful. But I really also want to— I just want to take off on what you said about like there are moments where you feel like, is this what I should be doing in my life? You know, as an entrepreneur, and all entrepreneurs have these moments of self-doubt, and also not just self-doubt. I want to say specifically, it is irrational to be an entrepreneur. It is.

Yeah. Yeah. And it totally is. I was thinking about this the other day, and you might have a question in there, so I'll let you finish.

Well, I just want to say that, like, it's irrational to be an entrepreneur, but not only that, you have employees and you have to encourage them. Honestly, most entrepreneurs don't get a lot of encouragement day in and day out. So you're only there with your voice in your head.

It's normal to have, like, what the hell am I doing kind of moments.

So, I'm just curious how you— I'd love to hear what you were going to say and I'd love to hear like how you think about that and what are the things and tools that you use to stay on course even when it's easy to get off course?

Yeah. So, the part I was going to just react to was this idea of entrepreneurship as irrational. It is absolutely irrational and it is not for everybody. And so, one of the things that I think is so interesting is there— in the course of my time as an entrepreneur, I've seen this sort of thread emerge around founders and mental health. And I think it's an important topic. I also think there feels like there's almost this underlying thread to that though, that entrepreneurship is for everyone. And it's not. And that's okay. In the same way that I probably am not the optimal person to be hired into a Fortune 50 company. I'm probably cutting off my options of ever being hired at a Fortune 50 company, but I probably did that already.

Yeah.

I'm probably not the right person for a job that requires that kind of a day-to-day life in existence. Being an entrepreneur is not something that you have to be able to do in order to be a successful professional. That's the only thing that I just sometimes question. So, it is irrational and there are significantly easier ways to make money. There are significantly easier ways to have an impact. I don't know that I have been called to it for, you know, like over the course of my career as an entrepreneur for all the right reasons going back to the beginning. I feel like at this point I have the right reasons. I feel, you know, very, very grounded in what I'm doing, how I'm doing it, the people I'm doing it with, both in terms of my, you know, my customers as well as my colleagues. But I would say in the darker moments, and the moments of like, am I good at this? And I typically ask myself the question, am I good at this, with some humor. You know, it's like, you know, I have enough confidence in myself where I'm like, yeah, I'm pretty good at this. But here's what I would say is there is a moment where it's not about, like, it can't be about me. It can't be about my skills or the things I'm good at or not good at or whatever. For me, the way that I have got through the dark periods is through my purpose, my mission, where I'm like, okay, if somebody else can go and build communities that run themselves, brands that build themselves, can really take advantage of all the things that we know about software and data and filter that through the lens of what makes an an incredible host and what makes the inner workings of an incredible human system or community, then great, I will stop doing what I'm doing. And during those dark periods, and now I probably have more ego involved in where I'm like, no, no, no, we are too close. We are too close to this. But I would say in sort of some of the darker moments, I was like, okay, well, if somebody else you know, figures this out and wants to do this because it's so obvious to me that this is going to be something.

Yeah.

I don't feel like, I don't feel like what we are working on at Mighty is innovative. I feel like it's obvious.

Mm-hmm.

It's obvious. So that is a very different and important nuance. But once you get to that point where it's like you can see it, then things get real, like it gets easy to tap an unlimited source of energy when you can see vividly. And then, you know, the next challenge is, okay, then it's about communicating vividly that picture of the future that you see and that you believe, you know, needs to exist in the world. But that has been how I've gotten through the dark periods is like, this isn't about me. This is about the mission.

Yeah. Can you describe, because so many founders go through, I mean, people and entrepreneurs in particular, go through the dark moments and you talked about founder mental health, that's a real thing. What's an example of a real dark moment for you that you needed to, to sort of call on, let's say, mission and purpose, but also just sometimes a, like a one foot in front of the other approach. And I'll decide this tomorrow kind of stance. Like, what is a moment that you could take? Yeah.

In the earliest days of, of Mighty, it was not clear that we were going to be able to find more money.

Mm-hmm.

And there were stretches of time where, to the point that today, looking back on that, I would say it was something else that like allowed for all of these different pieces to come together at one time that allows us as a company or me as a leader get to do this today. And it's why I'm so grateful. But there were periods of time where you know, multiple friends and investors and friends who were investors and investors who became friends were like, Gina, is this really— like, is this really what you want to be doing? Like, okay, you know, it's like, I'll support you, but like, it doesn't seem like a great idea. And so when, when you have people that you respect and you care about and who care about you literally telling you this, because they care, you know, that can get really dark really fast, especially when you're staring into the abyss. And the way I handled that was, and I think it's an important way to handle feedback, which is to listen and to be grateful that someone took the time and the risk of sharing feedback with you or with me, and then putting it in a place to be able to say, do I accept that and do I want to learn from that? Or do I want to look at it and thank it and thank the person, but not let that enter my framework, how I'm making decisions or what I'm doing? And in some cases, I've totally absorbed feedback and said, that's a really good idea. Thank you. And in other cases, I'm like, Yeah, I see your point and I'm still going to go do this thing because for me, the mission, the reason I believe that I am breathing today and gratefully healthy is so that I can bring this new thing into the world. But, you know, I think one of the, one of the really disappointing things about Silicon Valley today is, you know, the number of founders who lead with you know, where they went to school and how many degrees they have and how technical they are and how sweet they are and how, you know, all of these people love them and think that, you know, everything they're about to do is perfect. I find those people incredibly boring because, you know, in many, in many cases, you know, if you talk to them a year and a half later after, like, I'm like, come talk to me after you launch. And I say that because it's important to be humble in this chosen path.

Yeah, for sure.

Like balancing mission and balancing a clear view of the future that I want to bring into the world, my team wants to bring into the world, that has to be balanced and blended with humility. Because the reality is, I don't know if we're— if this is a family podcast, but I'll keep it family. It's like, we don't know. So much, you know, so many of the decisions that I've made that I'm like, oh my God, this is the best decision I've made, have not been. And other things where I'm just like, somebody like swings by and they're like, hey, should we try this thing? I'm like, yeah, sure, why not? And like, it's the why sure, you know, why not? Yeah, let's give it a whirl. That like totally hits it. And the thing that I thought, you know, I would bet my crystal ball on is a thing where it's like a total cricket, total crickets, like total failure. So I think that humor and humility are both incredibly important if one chooses this path.

Yes, that's so well said. How do you know when to take feedback and when to blow it off? How do you know?

Well, I try never to blow it off. I think you can respect it but not accept it. So a couple of things. Number one, I think it's really important to talk it through with other people. Hey, I got this feedback. I'm trying to kind of like process it and understand it. Will you help me think it through? And especially when you can like surround yourself with people that are sometimes they're, you know, that they come at the world in different ways. I think that's incredibly valuable. And so having, for me at least, it's sort of a close-knit set of friends and family even who I can process feedback quickly through. And it— I think one of the biggest things for me that I feel like just changed everything was when it went from processing feedback from, oh my God, I can't believe they said this to me, to, okay, this is where this person's coming from. I'm trying to find if there's a kernel of truth in it. Is there any part of it that I want to take? Or if I'm going to use it as fuel in terms of like, "No, that person can fuck off." And I've had a whole range of feedback, but I also think this is one of the reasons why it's so important to listen to alternative viewpoints and not get stuck too much in a world where you're surrounded by either yes people if you're a leader or one one worldview and that seeking out people who are experts and who know different things than you do, but also people who are super normal and don't care about the things that you care about, that hunger for all of these different kinds of inputs and processing what's coming at me and also what's being provided to me, both of those things are true. I think it's so, you know, it's a gift.

Yeah.

And sometimes you really do have to just laugh at like, okay, feedback's a gift, but it does not feel like a gift right now. Thank you very much for that gift. It does not feel like a gift at this moment, but I will process it and I appreciate it.

Right. Sometimes the things that disturb us and that come in difficult packages actually can be very valuable, but you just have to—

Super valuable.

Right.

Super valuable.

Now, Gina, let's face it, with all this experience of yours, you're a community expert. And so I want to get into it. What are some of the essential elements to build community both online and in real life? Like, what are the characteristics, practices, or rituals that people can really take and run with on their own?

Yeah. So, the first one is a big purpose. And that tends to— so, a big purpose is sort of the motivation for the community. Why are people coming together? Who is it? What are you going to do together? And then, what is the benefit? To you for doing those things. Now, what's interesting is you can actually use that, that framework or that filter, whether it's your community in real life, your friends, your family. And certainly as you're starting to either design or craft a community online or join a community online, you always want to know who's here, what are we doing here, and what is doing those things going to get me. And going to get us. So that, that is really 80% of it. It's 80% is have you crafted this big purpose that typically starts with having a personal purpose? Because I've had a front row seat to like at this point over 3 million communities, courses, memberships created, 300,000 and 400,000 active on a, on a monthly basis. Across two platforms. So, I probably am one of the few, if only, people that have not built one but two community platforms to scale. And really how we've evolved Mighty is into what we call a unified member platform because we do all these other things. And just being able to say unified member platform is easier than, oh, it's a community and you can also create courses and memberships and events and challenges. And it's like, at a certain point, it's like, oh my God, We need another way. Like, I just don't have enough words. There's too many words. So, you know, as we think about what this has evolved to in terms of a unified member platform, you still need at your fundamental, most core essence, that big purpose. And then once you have a big purpose, then actually gets really, really fun because you actually— so our community design framework is just broken down by year, month, week, day, super easy. So after you sort of think about what that big purpose is, and it's not your big purpose, like, why do you want to create a community is not the point. It's— you get to keep that and you get to have that, and that gets to be something that you hold in your, your heart and your mind and your notepad and your computer and whatever. But it's really about why are your members— why are you attracting and why are you bringing your members together? In pursuit of something bigger than themselves. And then you can break it down into a year. So a year in the life, and it— that's a super simple question. What can your members do a year from now that they can't do today? And if you unlock that, what can you do a year from now that you can't do today? That's pretty fun to think about.

Yeah, that's also very profound to think about.

Yeah. And so right there, that is how you can reinforce the value of your community courses member experience is, okay, what can folks do a year from now that they can't do today? And what can you do as a result? And I think that's really important. Most people start with what they want. Well, I started this company because I wanted X, you know, or I started this community because I want freedom, you know, and to not have a normal 9-to-5 job, or I want to help people. If you switch it around, you're gonna get so much more energy, attraction, you know, success faster because you're starting with what is it that you are bringing to people. And then as you bring that to people, then you have all of these new things that you are able to do. So that's the year in the life. And then monthly themes, because after about a month people are like, All right, what's next? What are we doing here? And especially as your monthly themes can ladder up to that big purpose— who are we bringing together, what are we doing together, and what are we going to get for it? So monthly themes are great to be able to unveil and just make really fun in terms of being able to, to have topics that are meaty enough that also Everybody has a story or an experience or an idea around not advice. Advice shuts down conversations. We do not give advice. We do not encourage advice because advice is the fastest way to kill engagement in a community.

Hmm.

Just think about in your own life, you should totally break up with them and then you don't break up with them. What happens? It's a little awkward. Or you should totally quit your job, or like, you should shut down your company because you don't have any money and no one's going to want it. You know, it shuts it down. And too much of online, you know, online dialogue is about, well, I'm going to give this person advice. It's like, share your stories, share your experiences, share your ideas. So, that's what monthly themes are for. And then a weekly calendar. So, monthly themes essentially bring novelty. A weekly calendar creates a habit. So if you're going to do something, if you do it, it's so simple. If you do it at the same time every week, you're going to— even if somebody doesn't join that event or doesn't like click through to that particular question of the week or whatever that might be, if you do it at the same time and they get a notification at the same time every week for a minimum of 4 weeks, they're like, okay, this is now a habit. Versus if you just do an email drip campaign, like, you know, super intensely, and you have the open window, and then the window closes, and you— they don't— nobody hears from you for like 3 months or 6 months or a year until the next time. Versus Tuesdays at 8 AM, this is when I do my thing. And this is true, I think, for any, any creator, any community. It's like being able to build that habit is super important. So we recommend, like, I recommend like just do 2 things a week. And if you just do 2 things a week, that's enough. And then the final thing is frequent or daily polls and questions. And that sounds like, like in the early days, people were like, oh my God, I'd have to create so many questions. And I'm like, okay, we're going to get to the bottom of this. And what we've done is not only really kind of formulated kind of the best community, we looked in our data and formulated kind of this simple, easy way to formulate a great community question, but then, you know, we've automated it as well with what we call the infinite question engine. So the, the benefit of questions is not for you to do something as the host, but for your members to start to build relationships with each other. So purpose, year in the life, progress. The best communities are about results and transformation. They're about progress. So that year in the life. Monthly themes, weekly calendar, daily polls and questions. And then you can layer all sorts of things on top of that if you want. But that's like, that's only if you have all the time in the world and it's right. And you're like, the thing that's been so hard to share about community, but it's almost like this little club of people that run communities where they're just like, the energy when you do this structure, it's infectious. You create a never-ending source of energy. Now, unfortunately, platforms like Facebook, for example, created so many sort of toxic dynamics in their groups that for a whole generation of people that created or were running larger communities, they're just like, "Oh my gosh, I would never do that again," or, "It's a grind and community is so hard and you have to have this massive audience and all this stuff." And the platform actually does matter, but in part, it matters because it matters what is the foundation or framework you start with. And for us, we started with community design, and then we just keep building software to mirror that. And that's how we're able to create a platform where communities can run themselves.

Yeah, I love that. There's so much richness to what you said. I love you talked about progress and also structure. Like, structure sets you free when you do things consistently and with a routine and in some ways with a ritual. Like, even a poll, a daily poll or a weekly poll, can be a ritual. A weekly question can be a ritual. All of those things kind of build, I think, some of the magic of community as well.

Well, and I'll give you, I'll give you one that you can even bring to your, you know, your IRL life or even your group texts, which is just the same time every week, a give-ask. Hey, here's something I can give and here's an ask I have. And for me, it's always really important that you start with the give and then the ask. And again, we've been trained in so many ways to start with the ask and then the give. Oh, and by the way, I could kind of do this thing if you needed it, versus, hey, here's what I have to give, or this week, who's up? Who's got something to give? Who's got something to ask for? And it's just a really powerful way of making connections quickly, even amongst, even amongst, you know, friends who have known each other for a really long time.

Yeah, sparking connection. I love that. One thing you also talked about was energy, and something you've talked about in the past is the importance of managing your Managing your energy as an entrepreneur. Can you talk about how you personally came to the understanding of that was why that was so important?

Yeah. So first and foremost, I think that I started my career as an investment banking analyst, and at the time the gig was you are going to work really hard, like you're going to work 70, 80-hour weeks. And what you're going to get in return for those 70 and 80-hour weeks is you're going to meet incredible people. You're going to be in the room where it happens. You are going to learn how to be a professional. And I thought it was a great trade-off. Now, the, the way that you work 70 or 80 hours a week when you don't know anything is you just have to— like, you're getting— you are doing things like building the model, you're like building the presentation, you're doing the work. Fast forward, and I think, you know, as a, as a leader and as an entrepreneur, certainly at early, early stage, you're still doing the work. But now what's interesting is that my hours, like my actual grinded-out hours, are fewer, but it's always on my mind.

So, oh yeah, that's a good point.

So, so it's— so this, this whole notion of, you know, the hustle you know, like the hustle culture of you have to work 80 hours a week or you have to like, if you're not working every day, are you really an entrepreneur? You know, it's a super controversial— there are people that I love who hate that and there are people who I love who are like, you kind of have to do a fair amount of work in order to be a successful entrepreneur. And I love both. I love both of these are the people that have both of these viewpoints. Yeah, here's where I've gotten to, is I've, I have come to the conclusion that my highest and best use is in managing my energy and emotions so that there's never super high highs or super low lows, that my ability to contribute new and fresh ideas and thinking is absolutely critical to our success. And that only through being able to step back and let things and patterns emerge because you give your brain a break, you let it sort of process in the background. Only by that am I going to make the best decisions as a leader. Now, for some people, that means working a shorter week or being able to take care of themselves in really important ways. For other people, it might still mean working 80 hours a week. I'm not going to pass judgment on how you get there. But I think we don't talk enough about what are the real assets and the real things that a CEO of a startup needs to be able to do. Because at the end of the day, I was saying this to my team yesterday, what's the game? The game that we have signed up for is to find a market opportunity that allows for a doubling of revenue. Not company value, but revenue as quickly as possible. And then that doubling goes to tripling and the tripling goes to quadrupling. And that is the game we have chosen. So, once you start to think about that, it gets really clear, like, you better manage your— like, I better manage my energy. I better manage my creativity. I better manage how I show up for work because this is the other thing. Is that one bad— if you're in a bad mood as a CEO and somebody's interacting with you and they don't interact with you a lot, or even if they interact with you a lot, and this is true for any leader, you can end up freaking somebody out or ruining their day in ways that are not— it's not cool. And it's not particularly productive either.

Yeah.

Because guess what? If they're thinking about, oh, is she mad at me? Or Oh, is she like, you know, and that starts to spiral. It's like, what are they not thinking about? Their job. How can they make the best contribution to, in our case, Mighty, that they possibly can make?

Right.

So I think when you start to think like, so for me, it's, am I showing up with energy, with perspective, with some joy, with some peace, some relaxation, but also, you know, energy. And can I handle what's going to come? You know, what unexpected thing can come at me or to us, either on the positive or the negative side on any given day? And I think it's actually one of the reasons why so many, so many leaders and so many CEOs get up really early. I've started to get up earlier and earlier in the last, call it, 5 years. And it's in part because it's like there's no better time than when everybody's asleep to just be like, okay, what's happening? Like blank piece of paper. What's going to happen today? What do I want to create? What do I want to get ahead of? And then by the time the day starts, it's like, all right, let's drop it in, people.

Let's go do this.

Let's go do this.

Well, that's what I was going to ask you. What specific tools rituals, tactics have you found work for you? So one of them is waking up early.

Waking up early. First thing I do is grab an oat milk latte and, and literally blank printer paper and a Bic pen. And what I have built as a practice, and I wrote about that in, in the, in the book I wrote.

Yes, you can mention that.

Design a Community and Change Your Life. And what, for me, it's not a to-do list. It's a, what did I process overnight? If I do have sort of to-do items, I write them over in the right-hand column. And otherwise it's like, I just, I let the ideas take, like I let the brainstorm, the ideas, the morning page, or whatever you wanna call 'em, kind of take me where they wanna go and where my ideas wanna go. And then to me, I start the day where it's me pushing things out as opposed to— I love the expression, I think it was Tim Ferriss who said it, which is your inbox is other people's to-do lists.

Right.

And so I am really careful about— I don't really check my email first thing in the morning. If I really don't want to get up, I'll sometimes just like check the internet or whatever, see what's happening in my group text. But for the most part, I really try to protect that morning time. The other thing I've learned is I can do a full day's work in the first 3 hours or 4 hours of the day uninterrupted. And if I tried to do that same thing in the afternoon between like 2 and 4, I'm worthless. So I think respecting— and this is one of the things I think that has just been so such a gift of COVID and working from home, and we're a fully remote company now— is I want every person on my team to really figure out what works for them in terms of when do they have the most energy, how do they manage their day so that they're creating a renewable source of energy and creativity and great work and work product, not how do you work as many hours as possible because that doesn't end well. It doesn't end well.

Right.

And people don't do great work.

Right.

I think about it less as burnout. And I'm like, it's what's not fun is feeling like the world is a darker and darker place. And that at the same point in time, your work product's not going to be as good. So if you focus on like, what are the results I'm bringing to my team? How am I, how am I staying in flow for as long as I can? How do I utilize the flexibility that we seek to offer? So that I can do the best work. And again, there are days and there are periods of time where I am like fully in a project and have kind of, you know, lose myself in it. And there are other times where it's like, yeah, I'm not feeling it. I'm going to go watch like 6 hours of TV and get back at it in the morning and be okay with that and be okay with that.

Yeah, part of it is knowing yourself, and I appreciate that you've sort of done the work to explore yourself and your energy levels. One other thing that you said in terms of, I think, self-awareness is that you said that you're a fine manager coach but not the best manager coach. And I guess I'm just curious now.

I tell anybody who I— who directly reports to me, I'm like, I'm a terrible manager. I might be a decent to good leader. But I'm not going to be the best manager you've ever had. And like, if you're good with it, I'm good with it.

Yeah. So what are— I mean, what are some things that you don't do that make you not a good quote unquote manager? And I would say, how have you kind of hired around yourself?

Yeah. And I say that half joking, but also not really. So there are really, really, really good reasons. To build the practice, you know, build a weekly practice. We talked about that from a community design perspective. My challenge is that because I value sort of the ideas, the fresh thinking, the like, okay, how are, how are we doubling revenue every year? How, like, that has got to continue to be the North Star for us, especially at our stage and size. And, you know, again, the game we're playing and That means creating more value for our existing customers, finding new customers, finding new customers who we can offer more and more value to. So I prioritize sort of that ability to do that direct work over whether or not you and I are going to have the same one-on-one time every week.

Hmm.

While I have a standing staff meeting amongst the people that you know, report to me, I do not have regular— like, I do not have the same weekly one-on-one times for those 30 minutes. Now, the way that I manage my schedule is, hey, if you need something, reach out to me. And because my schedule, I protect it and make it more flexible, reach out to me, let's address it right away, and let's make sure that you are unblocked. In what you need to do to do your best work. And so, I'm here for that. So, I enjoy and prefer, hey, reach out to me if you need something and let's talk about it, let's knock it out, let's go. You go to any management training and it would be like, you're inconsistent, you know, you need to be able to like build these practices. But I also have found that as we grow as a company, the people that are going to report to me probably need to have a couple of characteristics, like being very self-motivated. They don't have to have all the answers, and they don't, and none of us do. But we have to have a set of agreements that we're operating because we exist in a human system. We exist in— like, the one of the most profound things, I think you and I talked about this when we first met, I mentioned this is— so I've been working with a coach named Chris Holmberg for many, many years. And when he pointed out, he's like, "When did management become all of these things about a mechanical system when it's an organic system?" And it was just this light bulb went off for me. I'm like, "Oh, it's more like growing plants than it is about building a machine." Because as he pointed out, he's like, the way that you know that humans and management and leadership and all the things we're talking about, it's a human system, is because in a car, you know, the steering wheel and the carburetor don't hate each other. Like, under no circumstance would they not want to work together. You know, it's like you get to just like they work. So, instead of thinking about, okay, how is an organization and how for the people that work for me or the people that work for them and how are we, you know, do we have optimal sunlight and we make sure people have optimal water and that The direction we want people to be growing is super clear. Like all of those things, that for me is where I focus in and say, okay, my goal and my identity is on being, you know, the best leader I can be. I think other people are going to be better managers than I'm going to be.

Yeah.

But as long as, as long as we have a set of agreements that we're operating against and I'm not, I'm not pretending to be somebody I'm not. And somebody who would be working for me is not pretending to be somebody they're not, I think we can work it out. And I think we can, yeah, we can figure it out. And, you know, I feel incredibly fortunate that of the 6 people that are my direct reports, you know, 3 of them I have either known or worked with, or both known and worked with for at least 10 years at this point. And the others are you know, our 2+ years. And we just brought a new guy on too. So, there is— Yeah, exactly. But there are going to be people that do not work. And there are going to be people that I don't work for them. And I think that one of the other things just as becoming an adult, and one of the reasons why I love, you know, your entire approach is embracing and recognizing that I don't have to work well with every personality type and every person in the world. At the same point in time, we can have people in our company that are different, and not just different from a diversity perspective, but different in terms of chemistry and personality. And that's okay. Because when your human system gets big enough and you have the right agreements in place, Because agreements are what are the connection points in a human system. Yeah.

Can you talk about the agreements? I think that's so clear. And it's clear you have something very explicit in mind when you talk about the ones that the founders are going to benefit.

Yeah. So, we don't have policies. We don't have rules. We make agreements. We're all human beings with agency. It almost sounds like it's a cult. It's not. But it's, you know, we're all human beings. With agency. And the way that you build a human system is through a series of agreements. And as managers or leaders of a company, we've made— bottoms up, over offsites, we have laid out a series of agreements that are—

What are some examples?

First and foremost, it is about being clear with how you want or need to be managed. To do your very best work. So, it's not managers have to read your mind. One of the agreements that we make is like, "You'll speak up because we, especially in a remote company, I won't know if you need something unless you say it." Now, sometimes, again, it doesn't mean we're always great at these agreements, but certainly, we can refer back to them when we're working through things. Another is, that we agree to push communication. So, it is your job to push communication out as opposed to leaning back and waiting for somebody to ask you about the thing. Again, you can totally see if we have a different agreement, but if the agreement is you push communication out and you do what you say you're going to do. And if you can't do what you say you're going to do, we have an agreement that says, You will raise it as quickly as possible, set a new agreement, set a new, new goal or new deadline, or, or, and, and your word matters. It's the only way you can manage in a remote company. It's the only way you can, I think, manage in most, if not all companies. And so those are just two. Another is, you know, because people are building their livelihoods on Mighty, You know, we take that very seriously. So, we want to continue to experiment, but experiment with a lens towards making sure that your livelihood is not risked as we continue to experiment. So, finding some of those balances. And I think sort of the final, you know, as we go through all 12 of them, it's like, and we're here to win with honor. We want to win. We are highly competitive, you know, especially as we've started to see, you know, it's almost flattering, but also flattering in a weird way of like copycat companies. But we're going to do it with honor and integrity. And you can do both.

Yeah, I love all those, you know, I love all those agreements. And I'm curious, and, you know, they're probably different levels of abstraction and execution layer. But like, let's assume that somebody is holding back and, you know, it's like, oh, I'm so mad because no one told me, or I'm so mad because no one gave me this thing I needed, and then you discover it. How do you address with somebody that they— because everyone's human, agreements get broken all the time, that's normal. And so how do you address that with somebody without making them feel bad? Like, like if I violated one of these agreements and I complaining that no one told me, and you were like, well, it's actually your responsibility. How would you address that with me?

Yeah, so, so I think let's go back to the fact that anybody who joins Mighty, the first thing that they do with their manager, or even before they join, so that it's like, hey, we're not— again, you have full agency to be here or not be here. And if you don't want to be here, that's okay. Like, no harm, no foul. It's, it's— we have a clear mission We have a clear reason for why we exist. We know it's not going to work for everybody in terms of either how we run the company or, you know, as a solution for your members, your community, your courses. And so what's really important in anything is what were the expectations that you set up front. So at no point would we be having a conversation after the fact that didn't start with, hey, here are the agreements. And if you choose to join us, you are agreeing to these things. And I am representing the company as your manager or soon-to-be manager about these agreements. So then when something inevitably comes up, I think it's a question of, okay, so, you know, another one is rapid and open communication. Like if something like, hey, I got confused by that comment you made in the meeting, can we just talk that through? Notice it's not over Slack, it's not over text, but I would then ask the question of like, hey, help me understand where you're coming from here. What's going on? And so seek to understand and seek to listen and observe and then work through what's going on. What's your perspective? What's my perspective? How does it relate to the agreement? Are we, you know, again, are we out of integrity here? And then the other thing that we're probably talking about is some of the traps whether that's the knower trap or the victim trap of, hey, that sounds like we're, again, we're out of alignment or we're out of integrity with our agreements that we've made. And again, we've made these agreements so that all of us can do our best work. So if you're not able to do your best work, I want to understand that and figure out what we need to adjust. But it's, it's, it's not my fault. It's not your fault. We're both accountable to what happened or how we got here, and how do we get to a better place?

Yeah. I think that's so wise. And I think it also shows the maturation of a leader and your own leadership. And I'm curious, could you share how you've grown as a leader as you've built Mighty and how your leadership style has changed maybe? Yeah.

I think as I have gotten— better at my own practices, as I have really again tried, tried to get or stay as grounded as possible, all of these things become easier. When there is something that is underlying of like either, oh my God, this is all about to fall apart, or, you know, am I good enough at this, or, you know, just what's driven by insecurity, I think it is So, coming back to this, like certainly earlier in my career, I was like, do I know what I'm doing? And I valued in some respects whether I was successful or not, because again, what's hard in entrepreneurship and especially technology, like you can go a fair amount of time with no feedback or with no success or with just a series of failures. And so, you have to actually find what is that thing that motivates. So, for me, finding that mission having that mission super important. The mistakes that I have made in my career have been when I valued myself based on what someone else thought of me. And I've been very fortunate in multiple scenarios where people I really had a lot of respect for had respect for me and gave me a lot of responsibility and gave me a lot of opportunity. So I— but what it, what it created, certainly early on, was this like, as long as they like me, I'm good, or I'm, I'm okay, or I'm good at my job, or whatever. Fast forward through kind of that series of practices where it's like just even working out. So doing that little morning papers, drinking a fair amount of coffee, doing some work so I feel like, okay, I got the things off my plate that I wanted to, and then go and working out. I've gotten to a point where I'm like, the people around me know that. And I'll even say it, I'm like, I will be nicer, more charming, and more interesting and more fun to deal with if I go take 45 minutes and work out and I'll come back down, like, because my little workout room's upstairs. And that's another way of like, how do I ground myself? Because when I am grounded and when I've got good ideas and when things are, are cooking with gas, there's just a lot more room for Hey, yeah, that's a great idea. Go for it. Or, hey, let's tweak this thing a little bit, but then you've got this. Let's go. Versus when you're feeling scarcity and insecure and, you know, you're not good enough, or it all could fall apart tomorrow. Because again, in the world that we live in now, I think we're kind of past this point, but it's very touch and go, you know, like some of the best entrepreneurs that I know, you know, from one day to the next or one week to the next, you know, can, can be navigating some very, very stark possibilities and then pull it out.

Yeah.

And pull it out.

Yeah. Brian Chesky once said that there is a fine line between being an entrepreneur and being unemployed.

Very fine line.

I love that. Very fine line. I know. Gina, just a couple more questions. What do you wish you had known earlier on your journey?

I wish that I had invested in more of what it turns out I found grounding. Because I think some of the biggest mistakes I've made in my career came in places and moments where I did not have a series of practices that were grounding. And that makes me sad because, and again, I've gotten over it, but, you know, I wish I could go back to my 20, even my 22-year-old self and say, hey, you're going to make it, dream even bigger than you think is possible right now, but build into your life a set of practices that allow you to protect that, you know, that creativity, that energy, that sense of calm and peace, and find and surround yourself with people that lift you up and feel expansive, as opposed to being surrounded by people that bring you down.

I love it. Very powerful. Very powerful. And last question, what advice do you have for other founders? As they embark on their journey to grow into leaders?

Yeah, I mean, I think we talked about, you know, a lot of them, which is— but, but the ones that I would sort of summarize are humility. It's just, you know, I think especially modern founders are being trained to start every sentence with like where you went to school and what you majored in. I mean, seriously, like, it's, it's a tell. I think you and I were talking— it's a, it's a bizarre tell. Like, if you go to an entrepreneurial event and it's like, well, I graduated from Stanford in computer science and vision imaging. And it's like, so what? Like, so, who fucking cares? But I think it's become kind of the way the training and the culture has like, oh, this is how you pitch yourself and this is how you pitch your idea. But I personally think that leading with mission, leading with Again, what is that vivid picture of the world that you want to live in versus whether you went to MIT or Stanford? Like, I don't care. So, but I see it so regularly, like I'm in the minority here, but I do think that vision and humility are incredibly important. And then I would also say, especially to non-traditional founders, it's not about how much money you raise. It is absolutely about how much revenue you generate. And there are so many ways today to generate revenue without building software, starting there and controlling your own destiny. There are just so many— like, the world is filled with creative ideas that are so possible and so much more rewarding than the standard cookie-cutter, this is how you build a company and this is the only way you can build a company. And I've always found that to be bullshit. And I find it more bullshit-y. I don't think that's exactly a technical term. Maybe it should be today than I have at any other point in time. And so, you know, playing the game, the game's empty. Customers, mission, your team, those are fulfilling. Those are, I think, why to do this. And not everybody has to be a founder.

Not everyone has to be a founder. That's also good advice.

A lot of good ways to live your life. A lot of easier ways to live your life.

Gina, thank you so much for joining me. What a joy to see you and what a fantastic conversation. And I just appreciate so much, like, You're like, been there, done this, founder, entrepreneur, like experienced startup person, wiz up. So thank you. I really, really appreciate it.

It's my pleasure. Thanks for having me.

Amazing. Thanks for listening to From Startup to Grownup.

If you like what you heard, give it a review on Apple Podcasts so other people can find it.

And if you know of a founder or someone else who is meant to be on this podcast, drop me a line through my website, alisacohn.com.