117: Jyoti Bansal, Two-Time Founder, How to Win the AI Race Before Your Competitors Catch Up

It's one of the most important milestones that almost every company is going through is the how do you establish relevance and dominance in the AI transformation. You could very quickly be AI winner or AI loser. There's a binary separation that's happening very fast. So that is something that, you know, right now I'm going through that iteration of as a company, we have to get in the AI winner camp very, very strongly. And we have traded on it over the last 2 years. And like now we are in a very strong place, like, you know, but we were not like, you know, 2, 2.5 years ago when, say, the LLMs and the AI revolution just started.

Welcome back. This is From Startup to Grownup. My name is Alisa Cohn, and today I'm thrilled to welcome Jyoti Bansal to the podcast. Jyoti is the founder and CEO of Harness, which is building an intelligent software delivery platform so engineers can deploy software faster. Before that, Jyoti founded AppDynamics, which he sold in a multi-billion-dollar acquisition. Jyoti and I talked about why, after the huge success of AppDynamics, he decided to become a founder all over again. He shares a surprisingly confronting experience of finishing one chapter, realizing money was no longer the motivator, and asking himself what he would truly regret not doing. He also talks about entrepreneurship as a craft and why founders have to learn to iterate milestone by milestone rather than trying to perfect the whole journey all at once. We also got into what it takes to lead in the moment of massive change, like right now, including how he thinks about founder mode, how he's trying to drive speed and alignment, and the specific practices he's using as a founder to help the company adapt to this AI transformation moment. We also discussed sales as a differentiator, what he specifically looks for when hiring leaders, and the unusual startup within a startup model he's built at Harness to create ownership and accountability. This is a thoughtful and very practical conversation. So please enjoy my great conversation with two-time founder Jyoti Bansal. Jyoti, welcome to the show. I'm so excited to have you.

Great to be here, Alisa Cohn.

I'm thrilled that we're talking. You know, you are a second-time founder. You founded AppDynamics in April 2008, and now you are the founder of Harness and founder and CEO of Harness. And I'm really curious, after you successfully sold your company, we may get into some of the dynamics around that, but you successfully You actually sold your company for $3-point-something billion. And let's face it, you didn't have to do anything. You could play golf, you could do charity, you could do anything you wanted, but you founded another company. But it's so hard to be a founder. What was the thought process that helped you decide, I'm going to be a second-time founder, I'm going to do it again?

You know, that's the question. You know, once my first company was sold, AppDynamics, the first instinct I had was, okay, I don't need to work anymore. You know, I should retire. To enjoy other things that was on my list for a long time. And that was my first instinct. So I decided to retire. I didn't decide to start another company. And I had a list, bucket list of things that I wanted to go safari in Africa. I wanted to hike Machu Picchu. I wanted to trek in the Himalayas, wanted to see the fjords in Norway, all kinds of things like that. And, you know, I set out to do that. In 6 months, all the bucket list was done. And I realized I don't really like to play golf. And then after 6 months, I went into this almost this crisis of, okay, what do I really enjoy? Like, I'm still in my 30s.

In your prime.

I really can't retire. And yes, okay, I don't, you know, I did financially well and money is not the primary motive anymore and all. So, but what do I enjoy? And I ended up realizing, okay, I enjoyed the founder journey. That is like, you know, some people will enjoy playing golf. I would Enjoy the founder journey. So, okay, let's just get back to what I enjoyed and just do it like, you know, not because I need to make more money, because, you know, this is what I enjoy. This is kind of my craft. So why not just continue to do your craft and do it?

Yeah, I love that. What was that process like though? Because it's very confronting sometimes. There are actually plenty of first-time founders. They sell their company, they go IPO, whatever it is, and then it's kind of like, okay, like money is not really the primary motivator anymore. So suddenly they face almost like an abyss. Like there's almost a very confront— confronting experience of their identity. What specifically— can you take that back? Take us back to like a moment where you thought, oh my gosh, I really have to think about what, what am I about besides the fjords of Norway?

You know, that is the, that is the part, like, you know, when you are running a company, you're a founder, you're kind of like living and breathing and every moment of your life around that. It really consumes you to build, build a company. And when that exit kind of moment happens, and like, I wasn't staying at the company that acquired us, and it was kind of a very bittersweet moment. I know like we had this big celebration party, like, you know, of like, you know, it was a $3.7 billion acquisition. It was one of the largest software acquisitions at that time. And we had big celebration and I was coming home from the celebration and I had a few drinks and it was happy moment, the happiest moment. But when I coming home, I was the saddest. And I was like, you know, because kind of this end of this journey suddenly, or end of this chapter, and you are in this abyss of what do you do? I feel like, you know, you just have to go through a phase of boredom to figure out what you enjoy, which is what I did eventually. Like, you know, and I went through a very thoughtful exercise of, okay, what do I really enjoy? That's one part. Yeah, the second part I did was like, what do I— what would I regret, let's say, you know, 10 years, 15 years from now if I don't do? When I was doing my first company, it was like very kind of single-minded in some ways. Like, okay, I can put other things on hold in my life. I can compromise on other things in my life because I'm focused on it and I can do them later. And, you know, I was in my, you know, 20s and 30s and I had time. But when I was starting my second company, it was, I was very deliberate about, I can't put life on hold or things on hold. So I have to go into it very thoughtfully about that. And so I had a simple list of things. Okay. You know, these are the things I need to do. Like, and I want to build a company and be kind of very successful at my craft because that's what I enjoy. Like, so that's like the, uh, the company building part of it. But then there are other parts of life, like, you know, that I need to make sure, like, there is another. And I call it like, you know, there are few trains that have to run in parallel. I can't like have only one train running. So there is, of course, the company building part which I wanted to, but I have to have like, you know, family train, I have to have fun train, I have to have health train, I have to have giving back train, you know. And I added like one more was like intellectual stimulation outside of work as well. Like, you know, that's so, so, okay, as long as I'm making progress on all of these trains for the next 10 years, I'll be fine, you know. So, and, you know, so I cannot do the second company at the cost of like, you know, okay, there's only one train and no, no other trains, you know, family and life, your health and everything else has to— and that gave me peace on, okay, I'm ready to do it again, you know.

Yeah. Did you do a journaling process when you kind of got in touch with, you know, what do you love and what would you regret? Was that just like a set of journal questions you asked yourself or what was that process like?

Sort of. Like, you know, I like to write, like, you know, sometimes just to clear your thoughts. These days you don't write, you talk to your AI friends to clear your thoughts, like, you know, but back then, like, you know, you will kind of write up to clear your thoughts and then, you know, to get more clarity.

Yeah. And so you found that helpful. And something that you've talked about, you know, both now and I think in past interviews that I've studied about you is that you do sort of see being an entrepreneur as a craft. And you have to hone being an entrepreneur the same way you have to hone being an engineer. Can you talk a little bit more about that and what that means to you? And then also like how specifically does one hone their craft, their ability to be an entrepreneur?

Yeah, I think the one difference I would say is like when we talk about honing the craft word, it's a lot about like, you know, let's do the same thing again and again. Like your craft is basketball. So you hone by doing a drill every day, you know, you're practicing, you know, a particular shot every day. As an entrepreneur, you don't have that many shots. You can build like one company in your life, two companies in your life, three companies in your life. So when I look at the craft, I look at studying. Honing is a lot about studying and practicing it just in real world and enjoying it. That's a big part of it. I looked in the sense of I don't have like 50 shots that I'm going to try 50 companies and by number 49, I'm good at my craft. You really don't, right. So the way I look at is more about when I look at the entrepreneurial journey I kind of break it into milestones. Like there's a milestone of like getting started, like which is just really getting started is one of the hardest milestones. Then like maybe getting initial funding is another milestone, then like getting your first million of revenue is another milestone, getting your first product out is another milestone, getting like start to go from startup to some scale up to more scale up to more scale up to IPO and international expansions and these are all like different milestones. So you have to break each of them into like, you know, so the way I always look at it, like in each of the milestones you start by, you know, okay, this is what I need to achieve. And maybe you'll fail for the first month, first 2 months, or 6 months, and then you kind of find your way, find your way. You create insight at milestone and then you overcome it, and then you go to the next one, and then you kind of do that. You can't iterate the entire company journey, right? That's just— you won't have that many iterations, right?

But you iterate kind of each milestone. That's a very interesting way to look at it. Is there— I don't want to put you on the spot exactly right now, but like Is there a milestone right now that you're thinking that you're sort of heading towards that you feel like you're iterating inside of right now? I mean, there may not be, but I'm just curious if there is.

Totally. Like right now it's like, it's one of the most important milestones that almost every company is going through is the how do you establish relevance and dominance in the AI transformation? You know, because it's very, you could very quickly be AI winner or AI loser. There's a binary separation that's happening very fast. So that is something that, you know, right now I'm going through that iteration of as a company, we have to get in the AI winner camp very, very strongly, you know, not just for now, but for like, you know, and you have to find our way, like, you know, and, you know, we have iterated on it over the last 2 years and like now we are in a very strong place, like, you know, but we were not like, you know, 2, 2 and a half years ago when say the LLMs and the AI revolution just started. We were finding, okay, how do we be the AI winner, not in that camp in a very strong way, and we couldn't figure it out initially. It took multiple attempts, okay, what should our product strategy look like, our messaging, our positioning, our technology, our relevance, all of those, but it took us some time to get to that step, but we're not fully there still, that's the kind of, let's say, the iterative process, but I look at that is so core milestone to what we are doing as Harness right now. That I have to figure it out. As a company, we have to figure it out. You know, it's whatever it takes, we'll have to figure it out. Like, you know, when I was starting my first company, the biggest— the first milestone was just getting funded. Like, you know, I was just first-time engineer turned founder. I didn't have much money to start growing myself. The goal was very clear, like, get funded and, you know, get some venture capital so that I can start the company. And I got— like, it was a 6-month iterative process. I got, you know, 30 rejections from VCs before I got my first First offer. So it's, but you kind of trade on like, you know, after every rejection you learn like, okay, what went wrong? Like, you know, why did I, I need to refine my story. I need to refine my position. I need to like, you know, provide this, you know, evidence or whatever it is, right. To, you know, so that you can achieve that milestone. Once you achieve that milestone, now it's like, I need to find a product market fit that people want. And we failed in the first few iterations on that too. Like, you know, it's like, okay, you, we build something, get some thesis on the product. You bring it to the customers, the potential customers. They didn't really want to buy it or it was, you know, then you kind of iterate and pivot and find your product-market fit. But that is kind of the entrepreneurial journey that you kind of keep finding your way inside each of those.

Yeah, and you keep tinkering. There's so much to ask you about that. But just coming back to this AI moment, which is so important and transformational, and I would just say, I just talked to the founder and CEO of Whisper. Whisper's AI dictation software or transcription software, or not software, a tool. And it's amazing because he was, that him and the company were born during the AI moments. There was no transformation necessary. Necessary. But there are so many companies and founders, including you and Harness, who were born pre-AI, the pre-the AI moment, and have now had to really undergo that transformation. And it is clunky and challenging and also high pressure. And I'm just curious, like, what did you do to get on that train? Like, did you pull your team together? Did you have conversations? Did you kind of jump in? Did you have the right level of executive leadership? Like, take us to the moments where you were realizing this is super important, we got to figure it out, and the things you've so far not working.

One thing I'll say, like, you know, we had a unique advantage that when Harness was started in 2017, yeah, the headline in press was Harness brings artificial intelligence to DevOps, and that's what we have been doing. But this was pre— the definition of artificial intelligence was very different. Yeah, it wasn't LLMs, it wasn't, you know, generative AI. So it was like different era of, of AI, you know, and many times people will not even call it AI, you know. And right now based on like, you know, what it used to be. So we were kind of, we started from the very inception, even before this AI moment, you know, to be an AI company for the AI technologies that are available and bringing it to our products and our customers. But this was still a very, very transformative moment. You know, the primary transformation here is like, you know, what Harness is in the business of, people write, software engineers write code, and now you have to do everything after the code process of like testing, securing, deploying, optimizing, all of those things. Things. But the writing code is completely very quickly moving from humans writing code to AI writing code. So now it's like a very different world. So we had to adapt fast on it, right? So now as a founder, as a CEO, you know, I know like a couple of years ago there was this conversation on the founder mode and like you're just— yeah, yeah, this is that moment. Like there is no— like, you know, the sense of urgency is so high, you just have to lead it from front. That's what I do. Like there is no other option. Like, you know, like what are the things we to transform. We can't go through the normal, you know, the organization moves slow, you go like 3 or 4 layers. So like I talk to some senior product leader and they talk to the product manager under them and they talk to— and now we have like 6 months later, you know, we're doing something. We don't have 6 months. Like, and I tell people like, yeah, you know, we gotta move in the pace of like 2 weeks, you know, a week, you know, it's not, you know, for months and months for things. And some of it is so you have to kind of put a lot of energy on alignment very, very fast, not like, you know, weeks and months and, you know, or quarters of alignment. Fast shipping of things, quick decision-making, and also bold transformational thinking when needed. Like in Inhana's case, we are completely rebuilding our, you know, we have thousands of customers, hundreds of millions of revenue, a product platform that has evolved over 6-7 years. We're fully rebuilding the entire user interface, how people interact with our product, we're fully rebuilding our pricing strategy and these are big, big moves that normally companies will go through like multi-year transformations to try to do those and you go through slow but you have to commit to it and get it done fast otherwise you'll be left behind in the AI world. So this is definitely that moment where a lot of the CEOs, founders have to lead from the front, make fast decisions, bring team together very quickly You know, move faster. You just don't have time for like the normal organizational slow processes, right?

And so what's up besides you just realizing like we need a sense of urgency and then telling everybody we need a sense of urgency? What other specific tactics do you as the founder CEO use when you're going into founder mode for this actually quite transformational, like possibly generationally transformational moment?

Find the solutions. Not just like I go and tell people like we need sense of urgency, find a solution. I don't tell people that. I find the solution together with them and we don't leave the room until you find a a vision and a plan, you know. So it's not like, you know, that I'm just telling them, hey, move fast. And, you know, it's like we have to come to a— and, you know, I need to drive many of those decisions and discussions. And, you know, like, say, in the past, it would be like, say, if I have some thoughts and ideas, you know, okay, we need to fix this, or we need to solve this, and you're seeing this thing, I'll talk to someone, and they will talk to, you know, someone under them, and they will talk to someone under them. And like, you know, you kind of take from like your thoughts to some plan and it will take like, you know, 2 months of back and forth. Maybe it will meet like the 70% of what you want it to be and all that. Now I don't do that. I spend like, you know, 6 hours myself with multiple AI agents myself and like, you know, convert those thoughts into like a 15-page document. So everything is like, you know, and so that 6 hours of work that I do, or maybe 3 hours of work sometimes, can cut it down, the 2 months of back and forth, to a few hours. And now I give it to the team on like, you know, hey, this is the starting point of what, you know, some thoughts here of all of it. So we don't have that 2-month, 3-month back and forth and like, you know, the things lost in translation because there is an advantage of moving fast by like, you know, and that happens at every level, not just at my level. I'm now at the next level and the next level, like, you know, we can move fast, like, you know, just not go into like a high-level discussion and someone coming up with a plan and then you're really like, you just go into it, you know, create a mock together. Like, we get in a meeting, like, you know, on a Zoom call or like in an office. Like, don't just go back and forth, let's just build it right now. Like, in the meeting, like, at least a prototype, a mock, so we can all align on this is what you want to build, you know. So, you know, and not like, you know, someone will build it and there's a demo that will happen a month later, or someone will like— and then you give another feedback and another month later something comes in, or quarter later. Let's do it right now in that moment. We use, you know, that is a big, I would say the biggest tactical thing is the sense of urgency is not just like, you know, I tell people that you need to move fast, that we have to just do, get into this very, very high doer mode across the company.

Yeah, totally. Do you feel like it's because you're the founder that you can kind of instill that in people and insist on that? Or do you think any kind of CEO who came out from the outside could kind of create that rhythm inside of a company of your size?

It will be extremely hard for any CEO from outside. You know, I think it would be hard for any non-product CEO right now because the products have to change so fast that, you know, and you have to bring the organization together to do those. And, you know, that's so that there's definitely an advantage of having the product orientation for any, any business right now because the products have to change and change in 6 months, you know, and someone has to drive with high degree of conviction those changes as well, like, and bring the organization together. As a founder, you know everything, you know like the building blocks, you know where every skeleton in the closet is, everything you know, right? So there is definitely an advantage because you need the speed, you need the speed today. Normally you are in the mode of like, you know, I call it like, you know, like if you think about like, you know, it's like you go and fight a battle as a company and, you know, something like something important, critical, and then you are kind of in this a little bit of a peacetime for maybe you know, 6 months, 12 months, and then you are in this big battle mode, and then you are in a peacetime. I tell them right now, there's no peacetime. It's just battle after battle after battle after battle. That's where you have to keep into that. Like, you know, there is no time for like, you know, okay, we have 6 months of smooth, you know, normal peacetime thing where we, we can, we can chill. That's just not happening in, you know, at all in the industry right now.

I know, that's just not— that's totally true. I guess I'm curious, I work with a lot of founders and also a lot of CEOs of large companies. And the truth is that plenty of them, despite them being in this moment too, we're all in the same moment, are getting resistance from their team. It's hard to change. It's also not willful resistance, it's just hard to change. And people who joined any company, including yours, 5 years ago, 6 years ago, and are still there signed up for a very different mission with a very different company. How do you deal with that? How do you kind of think about that? What do you experience about that? And then how do you handle it?

A big part of any CEO's job right now is to bring the organization together, align them, excite them on like, you know, the direction, you know, get— because it's— the challenge is like, you know, there's so many existential questions for everyone, like any business, any job, any role. Everyone is like, you know, there is so much— like you go into social media and you'll be like, does this job going to exist? You know, will this company going to exist? Like, you know, will all the SaaS companies be dead, all cybersecurity companies will be dead, and just so much of the stuff like, you know, that's happening all the time. So the noise level is so high that I feel like any CEO's job is to also make sure that the, you know, you're creating this like a clear vision, a clear, you know, purpose, clear set of goals to go through that. Otherwise it's just so much noise and distraction on everything, and people can get into this mental loop of, you know, the doom loop any day. And that's unhealthy and productive. And that is becoming part of CEO's job to create the clarity.

So is that something that you think about every single day? Like you walk into your sort of your office or go onto your computer and you're like, this is what I have to do today. And also, what are the scripts that you use or what are the specific tools you use that to excite people and to calm people and get them focused on that mission?

First of all, is like, you know, clarity of like what we're going to be. Clarity of who are you going to be as a company in the AI world. Second is like, okay, how are we going to compete? How are we going to differentiate? How are we going to have the long-term moats? I think the more clarity of those and alignment, like you have most of the company bought into it, or at least the— and it starts with like your senior team is bought into it, and then you have the rest of the company is bought into it. That's very, very key. Otherwise, everyone is questioning it all the time, which is a valid thing. Like, if you don't create the clarity, like everyone, including like, you know, and I encourage in the company like discussions and debates and arguments and, you know, those are healthy part of it. But it's very also important, like, you know, you answer those and you create alignment through after those. AI is going to change everything. Should we be doing this versus should we be doing this? Why are we not doing this? Why are we on this path? We are on the wrong path. If those questions are happening every day, which happens in any organization all the time anyways, but right now the moment is because everyone is struggling to answer, like, you know, what the world will look like, what a job will look like, what any company will look like, what anything, right? It's just such a big moment. You have to drive even more of— more and more of that, you know, frequent discussions, alignment, write-up. So it's like, you know, I, I believe in more and more writing. It's so to create clarity for the organization around it as well. No.

Yeah. Do you also, you know, Jyoti, one thing that you've talked about in a lot of podcasts is like how to how to hire and specifically kind of what you look for in sales leaders. So I have like a lot of questions about how you've hired people, but I think my first question is like on your leadership team, do you also say to them proactively, hey, I'm, you know, communicating this, but I need you guys in lockstep in kind of a different way communicating this clarity, you know, solving problems. Do you tell them that? Like, how do they respond to that? Because a lot of leaders aren't always sure that that's their job.

My job, number one job, is to create alignment. It's create clarity of vision and clarity of goals, and then make sure this alignment is there across the board. And I feel like if I do that, 90% of my job is done. You know, it's like, because we have capable people who, like, you know, who can run with things. Like, you know, it's where the companies will start struggling is like the, you know, it's not clear where we're going, or like there are discussions and debates that are not settled. There is contradictory parts that somehow we evolved into that doesn't make sense. Things don't add up essentially. So, and that applies, starts with my level for the whole company, but applies everywhere else, you know, at the senior levels there. So all our senior execs that, you know, that we have, we're very clear on what the goals are, what you want to achieve, but then we also create alignment between like, you know, okay, what's the product strategy and the sales strategy and the customer success strategy and the financial strategy? Are they all in lockstep? Like, so, you know, we as a leadership team will meet once a week, you know, we kind of review the goals and where we are on those. You know, once a quarter we do like these business reviews on product and sales and, you know, where the different teams participate in the sales ones, the product teams will participate in the product teams. Actually, we have like this week all those product business reviews quarterly where the sales teams and others will participate so that everyone is on the same page on like what's working, what's not working, you know, what we're going to be doing. And like, you know, once in 6 months our management team will get together and be like, you know, it's almost like no structured agenda, no tactical topics, but like, you know, just making sure we are aligned and we get an opportunity to a day to answer anything on our heads and like, you know, and discuss and debate. So you have to create multiple forums on these and these are executive level, but you have to do it across the company on like different forums, like, you know, the companies to get together. We do like every 2 weeks a company all hands and where like, you know, I spend a part of the all hands in asking any questions, you know, and we make it like, you know, anonymous, non-anonymous, whichever way you want, you are comfortable with, but no question should be unasked. Like any employee in the company, whatever question they have, you know, every 2 weeks we'll answer it all. So it creates like, you know, people get to hear, you know, what we are all thinking, you know, all the questions are answered. It creates a degree of transparency and the transparency now creates like, you know, trust and creates also this in the sense of we are solving the problem together. Like I always tell our team, like, you know, if I am the one, like, you know, we have 1,200 employees and these are very smart people we have, like, you know, across the board. The collective intelligence of 1,200 people is so high than anything anyone would have as 1 person, 2 person, 5 person, 10 people. So we have to bring in the collective intelligence and have, but that will only happen if everyone knows what the goals are. Everyone knows which is where we are going. Like, you know, I'll give you a very simple example. Like, I like to call it like a North Star goal, which is a simple North Star goal of revenue, because revenue is so measurable. Like, we want to be $1 billion of revenue by this year. And we set the goal, like, you know, I said it like, you know, when we were like, you know, just starting as a company, and people would be like, $1 billion of revenue, that's too crazy. And, you know, but because I was second-time founder, people still call me too crazy. But like, you know, but then we said it, okay, we have $100 million revenue goal by this time, and this This is kind of the plan and this is, you know, this is the billion-dollar revenue goal by this time after that, like, you know, that's— and this is like a tentative high-level plan and roadmap towards it, right? But now it's like, you know, what happens over time is like, you know, the organization, our 1,200 employees, like right now we are on the path to like, you know, getting, you know, to a billion dollars in the next few years. But we're at a point where like no one is asking like, is it possible? Is that the goal? Everyone is like, to get to a billion dollars, we need to fix these two things here. We need to do this. If we don't change this here, we'll have this problem a year later or two years later. So everyone is thinking on that, like, you know, the goal is internalized. Like, that is the goal. Like, it's almost like our destiny that that's gonna happen. Now everyone is trying to find a way to how do we get there, what will stop us there. So it's not just me, like, you know, everyone in the organization. And that creates the right, you know, that's kind of the— so same applies to now this AI moment. Like, it's like, ideally you want, like, you know, okay, you have clarity and thoughts, but also like everyone is trying to solve that problem together, like the entire organization. Like, you know, it's not just my problem, it's like all, every employee in the company, everyone in every role, like, you know, we solve that problem and that's what, to get to the next level.

Yeah, so that goal gets internalized by the organization and everyone's kind of driving for that goal. And you know, one thing, Jyoti, that you really are, I think you're very interesting and unique, is that you are an engineer turned first-time CEO turned second-time CEO founder, and yet you are very sales-oriented and very revenue-oriented. And that's not always true of all engineer founders. How did that, how did that happen?

It's very clear, like, you know, products don't mean anything until you have revenue. You know, revenue is the only lifeblood of any, any, any business. And of course, over time, profits, you know, revenue converts to profits, but at least like as a, as a tech startup or a, you know, you start with the revenue. That's how we build a business. And it's not like, you know, I knew the sales, go-to-market skills and all of those. But you learn it, like, and you put more energy into learning it because that's not something you— like, when I was, you know, as an engineer, I practiced as an engineer. I knew, like, you know, what, how engineering works. So it's like, you know, it's more— it's a natural progression. As a sales— I never practiced as a salesperson except, like, you know, when I was a kid, I helped my dad in his shop. So I had my sales experience from there, you know, like after, you know, school and weekends, you will go to your my dad has like what you call like a mom-and-pop shop and you go and be a salesman. I had that as a kid but I didn't really professionally work as a salesperson. So you have to do it, like there is no other way. Like when I started my first company, this was right before the Lehman Brothers, the financial crash of 2008. So like it's like 6 months before that and then this crash happened and there was no funding in the market. There was like no And I knew like, okay, the company is going to die. All the startups were dying around us at that time because there was no venture capital funding until we get to revenue. And I couldn't afford to hire salespeople because we didn't have— that was like a very lean funding time. So I had to figure out how to be a sales rep myself. Part of it is like just was forced on me to learn and be, you know. But then also over time I realized like, you know, my first company, like, you know, we grew to you know, we had really good product, you know, we have like, not like we were not putting that much energy in sales and we're growing to like the first $10 million in revenue. But I could see like, you know, things were starting to slow down and stalling. And I never thought of like, you know, sales as a differentiator. I thought product is a differentiator. You start with like, you know, you have better products than your competitors and sales is a mechanism of like, you know, distributing your, those better products. Around that time, like, you know, I realized like sales could be a differentiator as well. It's not just the right sales execution for an organization. And once that belief started to happen, like, you know, and starting to see companies that will make that as a strong— like your go-to-market sales marketing, like also as a differentiator, not just product. That kind of— once that clicked to me, I was like very keen on, okay, I need to build the company with both as differentiators. Like the real power of the company will come where our product is differentiator in our go-to-market is also a differentiator on its own. And that's what we did then after that, you know, in my first company AppDynamics, you know, that was a big part of our success story. And that's kind of the mantra I believe in, like, you know, in Harness as well.

Well, Jyoti, how do you make go-to-market— that's fascinating. How do you make go-to-market a differentiator? How is that a differentiator in AppDynamics and how is it a differentiator in Harness?

I think a lot of it comes down to the talent. In engineering, people talk about these, you know, 10x engineers. The delta between like, you know, let's say a normal engineer and a very, very, very good engineer is good. The productivity could be very different. Sales is also like that. And that I didn't like, you know, initially didn't appreciate, like, you know, that sales, the delta between like, you know, a top sales rep and kind of a normal sales rep could be high, like in terms of the output, what they can do, what they can make happen, which is different than some disciplines. Like some disciplines, like, you know, like for example accounting, like you know the delta between like the your top rockstar accounting person and a normal accounting person is not that high. So what happens is like you know in sales very similar to engineering you have to bring those top talent inside the organization, you know, so it's like the talent density of the right people is very key. Some of them you hire who are experienced in that already, some of them you develop. So you create a sales organization that where you develop those people with those kind of top-tier skills. So you need the right sales leaders for that, like, you know, the right who know how to develop them, they have a framework for developing it. So it's all the talent is the first part. The second part on a sales go-to-market as a differentiator is that it's, is it running as a more organized machine process or is running like kind of like, you know, like when I was starting my first company, I never did sales. My perception of sales, especially like enterprise kind of sales, was like, you know, these like, you know, slick guys with slick hair, they go play golf with customers and find deals and all. Like, that's what a salesperson does. That's what my perception was. And there are people who kind of pitch you like, you know, most— that's what they pitch to like engineers and founders because that's what people like, you know, think. That's what the— what I realized was like, those are not scalable salespeople or a sales organization or a go-to-market organization. Scalable go-to-market organization is a structured machine. Like, you know, how many calls you're going to make, how many people are going to reach out, what is the conversion rate, what do you speak in those so that you convert better, you know, how do you go to the pipeline, do you do the right qualification. And the difference between a well-structured go-to-market organization versus like, you know, unorganized or like, you know, just do like, you know, someone is very highly magical and building relationships and all, which is— you can build business by doing those, but that doesn't scale. So that's when I look at, like, you know, go-to-market as a differentiator, that also— that's the second part of it, like, you know, the structured, organized process and the machine around it.

I love that. And when you were a founder, you know, you were the founder of AppDynamics and you couldn't necessarily hire all the salespeople and you had to figure it out yourself. I guess I'm curious, like, what are the first few things— like, if you had to now give advice to a founder who was on a shoestring, had some funding, but could really had to go out and do sales him or herself. What specific advice would you have for them?

Two things. One is like, you gotta appreciate sales and learn it. Like, you know, many times as product engineering founders, you start by not appreciating it. Like, it's like the, it's a different skill. It's a different mindset, you know, different motivations as well. Like, you know, in the, And a lot of, yes, everyone wants to make money and all, but in product, it's a lot about also like making a difference, you know, solving hard technical problems, you know, passionate about the challenge you're doing. The motivation in sales is a bit different. It's more about like, you know, kind of that mindset of like, you know, the hunter and, you know, you, you eat what you kill, that kind of a more of a competitive mindset around it. And, you know, it's, it's just a different mindset and you have to appreciate it and respect that first. And then, you know, and as any founder, CEO, and like, you know, and you start building people, you know, I see like, you know, and which I had the same kind of mindset, like the first time engineer turned founders, CEOs, the salespeople they get more attracted towards are the ones who are like kind of like more intellectual engineer kind, you know, which may not be the best salespeople for an organization because that's very different skills, you know, it's the, you know, and that appreciation is step one. Then step 2 is the appreciation around the slick people doing their relationship stuff. It's mostly like it's a machine, it's engineering problem there as well. Like of the, you know, how the sales funnels work and how the sales capacity work and the conversion rates and ramp times, all kinds of things in there. Like, you know, and that's something like any CEO has to become good at understanding and running to scale the business. The one caveat to all of this now is like, you know, things You know, one thing I'm always very clear, like, you know, things that work for me at AppDynamics many years ago and things which work for me at Harness many years ago too, may not necessarily be the one formula that works for everyone, you know, for every company. Like, you know, there's so many transformations on like, you know, that have happened over time. Like, you know, open source software, you know, product-led growth, you know, now AI-led growth, all, they're all kind of different ways. You have to figure out the right go-to-market. Like, and it's not necessarily, you know, if your business is selling to enterprises, that's a different business. You're selling to SMB, that's a different business. You're selling to consumers, it's a different business. You just have to figure out what is the right go-to-market model and make— have to become very good at it. Because some company with a slightly inferior product may still outcompete you if they have a much superior go-to-market. And over time, because they have superior go-to-market, they got more revenue, and now they can fund more the R&D to get the product to become better. So you don't really want that, you know, your competitors to get away because they, you know, they had superior go-to-market.

Yeah, absolutely. Because they can just keep reinvesting and then outlap you. I think that's really powerful and also such an appreciation for, you know, really the sales function. And if you're thinking about hiring a sales leader, let's say early stage, super early stage, and like later stage, what advice do you have for founders? Because very often it's just like this black box of like not knowing how to hire a sales leader. So what advice What advice do you have for founders in early stage, how to think about hiring, the kinds of questions to ask, and then later stage, the kinds of questions to ask?

I think for hiring for sales leaders, like good salespeople are good storytellers. They will, you know, so you have to be careful about that. As someone who never hired a salesperson, like, you know, when I was starting my first company, it was kind of a tricky thing. Like, you know, they say they all interview really well and say all the right things. Like, you know, who do I—

They look good.

Yes, you know, who do you hire? And to me it was very clear, like ultimately it's all about the track record, like what they have done in the past. And you know, maybe they have not, you know, so I look at like, you know, when I talk to any salesperson, like whether it's a rep or a leader or whatever, like what, let's say if you talk to, look at their history, like, you know, every year a salesperson has a number, a quota, and like, you know, what did they do against it? Like, you know, whether it's a leader, as a rep, you know, And it's okay if you didn't do it, but do they really understand like why, you know, they didn't do it? You know, do they really understand the nuances of it? What could be done better? What was the challenges? What were the gaps? Do they take pride in the number? Like, you know, if I see a salesperson who's like really never even talks about their numbers ever, to me it's like, that's not how they're oriented then. Like, you know, they're not oriented towards the goals and the numbers and the quotas, you know? So you want like someone who starts with that, like, you know, when they say in their resume, you see like, you know, 2025, 120% achievement, 2024, 150% achievement, 2023, 70% achievement, and that is okay. But at least they're mentally oriented towards goals and numbers is one thing. And then I want to understand what they've done. So it becomes more about results and all, especially when you're hiring a sales leader. The second thing, most of the times founders, when you're starting a company or you're at that point where you want your first sales leader, The question is like, how senior you want to go? Like, do you want to hire a sales rep? You want to hire a, like, a sales, uh, you know, VP? You want to hire a CRO? You want to hire, like, you know, sales manager? What do you— what level you want to hire? And that's always a tricky one. Like, you know, I tell people, like, and people ask me this question all the time, I say, like, if you know how to manage sales reps, hire sales reps. But if you are, like, a— if you are an engineer who doesn't have no idea how to manage sales reps, try not to. Like, if you can afford, hire a like a sales manager, director, VP, and hire someone who has operated at the— at least the scale you want to be a year or two years from now. So let's say you are projecting $10 million of revenue, you know, in two years, or $20 million revenue. So that's someone who has operated that scale. Beyond that, yes, they can maybe learn, maybe they cannot learn, you have to change it, you know. But at least try to hire someone like, you know, who has already operated, so you don't— you're de-risking the learning curve for them. It's not the first time, like, you know, Like, say you are at $1 million revenue today and you're hiring your first sales leader and, you know, you are projecting $10 million in the next 2 years. Try to hire someone who has whatever level they have operated at a $10 million revenue scale as a— maybe as a sales manager, as a sales director, as a VP, whatever it is. So you get that experience. Normally that's the advice I give to people.

Yeah, that's very good advice. And then once you hire them, how do you think about onboarding leaders in general, but also specifically sales leaders? Because the problem is that they're there for a year and it's like you're thinking, I don't think it's working. I don't think it's working. But they tell you it's working because they're great storytellers. How do you stay close and how do you touch in to make sure that this is actually the machine you were hoping to build?

For me, it applies to all leaders, not just sales leaders. Like, you know, onboarding leaders, you know, and I've learned through hard ways, like iterating on that too, is like, what is the right way? And what works for me is like two things. One is the— first is what I call like the mind meld phase, which is like 3 to 6 months, like, you know, where any leader you hire, you have to make sure like, you know, you understand how they think and they understand how you think. So initially you have to be more involved. Like I have hired leaders who are like, you know, I hired this very senior executive and now they are into, they started on Monday and I don't need to be involved on this. It's their job. And sometimes, you know, the reality is like, you know, 6 months later you figure out like, you know, okay, this, they're not doing a good job. And I give them feedback and they say, hey, why didn't you tell me this before? Like, you know, that you wanted it this way because I was just not, I didn't go through the mind meld. And I realized that that's a big mistake. For me to get leaders to succeed, initially the first 3 to 6 months, I have to go through— and sometimes it could be faster, sometimes could be longer, but there is a— I call it when we are on the same page now, that we think same way, this person knows how I think, they don't need to come and ask me things because they probably can guess my answer, I can guess how they think, so I know what to nudge them on. So that mind meld phase is very important. The second part is the transparency on numbers everywhere. Like, you know, but that again is not just for sales. I strongly believe in like, you know, transparency on numbers as a key tenet of the organization. Like, you know, we are like at Harness and AppDynamics, we are fully transparent on everything. Like every sales number, pipeline, how many reps we have, where things are, revenue, you know, marketing demand generation number, product numbers, customer retention numbers. We share everything in our— it's all open, you know, except like, you know, people's compensations and all. And then we share in the company all hands every 2 weeks, we talk about this. So everyone is aligned on the same numbers, we can't hide. Like, I like, like, you know, it creates accountability to everyone. Like, it's not just accountability to me as a CEO, it's accountability to the entire organization. Like, the entire organization can see, you know, that we are behind here, or these numbers look strange, or this looks you know, not on the right track. And so it's just those conversations are happening and you're trying to solve those problems instead of like, you know, and it doesn't happen 100% like how I would want it to be. Like sometimes the numbers get fuzzy, sometimes the definitions are not clear, you know, so those kind of things happen and you have to kind of keep at it. Like, you know, clarity of numbers and clarity of like, you know, how you talk about those and everyone is speaking the same language on what this number means versus not, things like that.

Yeah, it's a lot of intention. You know, it's so funny that you're talking about this and it really is like there's so much about like kind of the operating mechanism of the company and also dealing with people and communication and alignment. And I really think that many founders don't realize that that's actually the job. Like when you're successful, that's the job. Like your first, your first early years are like doing everything. And then at some point you got people around you to do everything. And then your job is to make sure that that transparency is happening, that communication is happening. Communications happening. Did you know that going in, or is that something that you kind of learned along the way?

Yeah, and I didn't, I didn't know that going in. As first-time CEO, like, of course you learn through it, you know, through that iterative process. You know, initially, yes, I, you know, my, my inclination was, uh, do it all myself, you know. Then you start realizing, like, you know, that doesn't scale. You need to find the right people and let them run with it. But then I also realized that is also a mistake. Like, I also need to get through this mind meld phase. Like, you know, otherwise if I let them run without it, then they may be running in a direction where, like, not by that they're incapable or they have a wrong intention or they're doing anything wrong, because I didn't really go through that, you know, mind meld of everything. So that was like an adjustment I learned through like, you know, process there. But then I also, you know, really think that there are times where you have to do things yourself as well. Like, it's not like as binary of like, you know, 'Okay, as an early-stage founder, I used to do everything. Now the company scales, you know, I've become the best delegator and, you know, alignment— an aligner between people.' The reality is you still have to— there are things that, like, you know, you still have to open to be doing yourself. And to create, like, this fast— there, at any point of time, I feel like there are, like, 1 or 2, or, you know, sometimes maybe 3 projects I need to lead myself, that the company would not get there fast enough if I'm not leading it myself. And which is like, you know, which is not like, you know, company is doing 100 things, like, you know, across the machine is working in all different things. For all those, like, you know, 97 things, you just need to create alignment, everyone is running with it. But there are 3 things that you just have to drive yourself. And I always pick, you know, few of the important things which mostly require, like, you know, this founder conviction, bring people together, get moving fast. Like, you know, there's some of the AI work right now is along those lines where, like, you know, you have to just Do it and know and balance that, like, you know, the, with the, you can't just delegate, delegate some of those things. Some things require you to run it.

Yeah, 100%. That's the whole founder mode thing. Again, it sounds like that's something that you have kind of developed your spidey sense about.

Yes. And you got, you don't want to bring it to most things, you don't want to bring it to everything, but there are, at any point of time, there are a few things that, that does require it.

Yeah. Now Harness is very interesting. You have the startup within a startup situation there at Harness. Can you tell us about that and what it brings to the company and what you get out of that?

When I was starting my first company, we built our product number one and product number one was great. We are doing great in the market, but we knew like, you know, it's not like the big, big addressable market just with that one, one part. We need to build our product number two. And, you know, we started building product number two and it wasn't really as good. You know, we didn't have that degree of like, you know, same degree of like, you know, do-or-die hunger that we had for product number 1, you know, as we're starting the company. And then you build product number 3, it was kind of the same thing. And at some point I started realizing, okay, why is our product number 2 not as good as product number 1? Because product number 1 was a startup startup, like, you know, at that time, like, you know, 5 people. And, you know, it's like build it or die, like succeed with this product in the market, compete with it, you know, or your company goes away, right? You know, and you are like fully motivated towards it, there is no like, you know, hiding behind something else, there is no, you know, there's clear accountability, clear ownership, everything like, you know. So I was like, why don't I— it's like we're struggling in this product number 2, 3, 4 to be as good. Why don't you bring it the same thing to them? Like, you know, because it worked for product number 1, so why don't we try to bring— which is really like ownership, accountability, remove the organizational barriers, you know, create this kind of like the incentive to to win and compete on those products. And that's when I started calling it like startups within startup in AppDynamics, my first company. These are essentially like why don't you operate as the startups that I know that the first startup when we were small, 5-10, we could build great products and succeed. So why can't we do the same concept in our second and third and fourth and instead of these mediocre second, third, fourth products. And then that thing started to take off and I was starting to learn some lessons and that's what a big part of the AppDynamics growth that we were having when we were going IPO when we got acquired. So at Harness, like, you know, I kind of started building the V2 of that startup within startup, like in a much more advanced, rigorous kind of model, which we have at Harness, which is like, you know, so, you know, Harness, we started with like one, we call them one product, we call them modules for like, we are going after this passive, you know, software engineering ecosystem. Software engineering is like there is coding that happens, and after coding there are like 30 different things you have to do, like, you know, all kinds of testing, security, compliance, deployment all worked. But each one of those are like different products. So, you know, but how do we build 30 great products? So, you know, that's the way our addressable market is. We can build a massive company, build big platform company, which is what I want to build, but I need to go build world-class products for each of those. And the startups, that kind of the startup mindset of like build the best products and compete on in the market in each of those and have that hunger and that like, you know, the do-or-die mindset, the survival of the fittest mindset for each of the products that is needed. So that's what the startup within startup model inside Harness is. So Harness, we started with one product and over the last 5 years we have now grown to 16 products. So these are 16 different startups that run inside Harness. So every startup has like a product-oriented leader, just like, you know, think of like a startup CEO and they are responsible for revenue of their product, competing for their product in the market, for retention, customer success. And yes, they get advantages of all the platform but their goal is very simple, compete in the market, be best of breed for your product, your startup. You're accountable for revenue, you're accountable for customer happiness and retention there and that's really it and like use what you can use from the rest of the organization but your job is to win in your area and compete and then we create a whole funding model around it also. Like very simple funding model, like, you know, where— so if you start work, it's kind of think of like, you know, when you start a new startup, we fund it with like 5 people, which is like a seed stage startup. Like, then normally, which will be if you go out in Silicon Valley and you have a seed stage independent startup, that's what you probably will probably have, right? And then, you know, once you cross a million in revenue, will, will become— it will become like a Series A startup, and then we'll fund it more with more people, more engineers, etc. Startup, you know, become $5 million in revenue, you become a Series B startup, we kind of fund you more. You become like, you know, $20 million in revenue, you become Series C startup, we kind of give you more funding, more things. You start becoming $50 million in revenue, you're a Series D startup, and, you know, so it's really like, it's not too different than how outside it works in Silicon Valley, like with VCs, the funding model. We internally do that as a framework, like, you know, so it's really just based on revenue milestones. And it's okay to fail also, like, you know, if you start a seed stage company and it doesn't work, we're not getting to the million of revenue, we're not getting the right product market fit, it's great, like it's a low-cost startup experiment for the company which is very important and you have to make sure like there's no stigma around failures, our team is not like too worried about it like if their seed startup failed that means like their job is on line or they're not going to get to do anything else or etc. So culturally you have to create like that we're taking the chances, taking the bets and these startups kind of start to to grow. A big part is ownership and accountability, like gives people the sense of ownership, it gives people accountability which people thrive in like in building it. And we get the rest of the platform like our go-to-market platform and everything to use so that gives you the platform advantage also. The accountability we also don't do like bundling too much with our customers like we tell our customer out of the 16 products each product you use if you think it's the best of breed. Otherwise, you can use our competitor for that one thing. So you can 3 of our products or 5 of our products or 1 of our products or 10 of our products, but we have to earn our business on each one of those. So it creates our accountability to the customer. It also creates internal accountability. Like, and if it's not a good product, you know, the customer doesn't buy, we tell them like, don't just use the, you know, things that you think are good. It works very well. Like, you know, we have grown from are, you know, driving a lot of our growth acceleration. You know, we have like people with high degree of ownership, you know, around building these. People are like, you know, high degree of competitiveness to compete and win in the market for their areas. And, you know, I think we can continue to build like, you know, maybe like normally like 2 or 3 new startups every year.

That's fascinating. But where do they sit in the org chart? Because they're part of your company, but they're sort of these little entities out in themselves.

Well, they're all organizationally, you know, they are all part the part of Harness, you know, they sit in the product organizations mostly. So, okay, we have these 16 startups, but like, I can't have all 16 directly report to me. So I kind of— I also, they report into, you know, 6 general managers. So every general manager has like, you know, 2 or 3 startups they operate, and then those 6 report to me directly. But these are like, think of them, they're like the quarterbacks of— they're designing the startup, they're leading it. But they're leveraging the sales organization, they're leveraging the marketing organization, they're leveraging the customer success, they're leveraging finance, they're working with engineering. So they're like almost all the organization they leverage across the board, but they run as like it's in— some things are like they're very directly accountable, responsible, or some things like they have to go through like they're using a shared sales team, for example, things like that.

Do they have to like compete for the shared sales team's time? Like, do they have to like, you know, sort of like tell a good story, like come over and work for us, you know, with the shared sales team or with the shared services?

Well, a lot of times it's about what the customer wants. Like, you know, it's like, so the, it's, you know, our sales team is paid the same amount, whatever product, you know, it is. So now it really comes down to like, you know, what the customer wants, where the customers the pain points are the most. So our product teams realize like the, if you want to sell more of your product, get the best product market fit. You know, that is the, you know, if the customers are asking for something that will sell and that's what the salespeople will want to sell. So that's, it's all about build the best product market fit. You know, of course you have to enable the sales and marketing, the right messaging and all, and that product will sell.

I see. So in a sense, like they actually get spun up based on probably business needs and customer needs. Needs, like, in the first place. Jyoti, just two last questions, or three last questions. Have you ever experienced imposter syndrome or severe self-doubt?

Self-doubt, yes. You know, it happens, you know, when you— it's part of the entrepreneurial journey. Like, you know, you have high highs and high— and, you know, those low lows, and all those kind of moments happen. Like, you know, when you're, you're doubting, can you, you know, make through things or not? You know, in many ways I like to start with like a dream or a goal or like, you know, something. You know, sometimes people ask me like, you know, one of our early sales employees, he was just asking me this question, like, did you ever think Harness will get here? Like, you know, when you're starting 6, 7 years ago, I said, yes, of course. I thought Harness will get here. Why would I have spent like, you know, last 7 years of my time and energy if I didn't think we will be here? And same for the next 5, 6, 7 years. Like, you know, so it's not that like, you know, I think like, you know, we are just getting there by fluke or we just get there and like, you know, it is deliberate. Yes, we don't, may not completely get to the path we built. You know, there may be changes, but I always believe like you have to start with the, this is the building I want to create and you're creating it like, you know, one floor at a time. And, but you know, like this is the building in the end. Like if you can build the building, this is the building you're working for. That sometimes happens, like some companies can get lucky and it just happens like, like by fluke, like, you know, but you know, I believe like, okay, that I can't control, but I can control like more organized structural building, you know, and that's what we have been doing, like, you know, so that doesn't like, you know, make me feel like, you know, that, okay, it's, uh, yes, sometimes there will be hard times where you're iterating through something, you're struggling through something, you're figuring it out, something. It's, it's in the end, it's like problem solving. You can You can solve your way through it. You just have to make sure you have enough revenue and enough money in the bank.

Yeah, yeah.

During the times of your early stage, you know, in late stage it's not that much of an issue, but early stage, that is, that is, you know, you don't, may not have, you know, time and to do iterations to figure something out. Like, you know, you may have one shot or two shots and after that you run out of money.

Is there, Jody, is there like kind of a low low that you could tell us about? Because I mean, you seem so successful and you're like so calm and confident. Is there a moment where you were like, oh my God, I can't believe— how am I gonna get out of this?

Yeah, yeah, many, many moments. Like, you know, like, I start with, like, even just my first company. Like, you know, when I had, like, these 30 rejections from investors, like, you know, you were at the— I was— yes, I wanted to, like, okay, let me find a way to find there. But, but there were many low lows. Well, okay, maybe this is not a good idea, I should just give up. And it's like, these are too many rejections. And when you're starting to sell your, you know, I was selling our product for the first time. I remember like, you know, we had this whole product thesis and that we got started the company for. And then I went to New York to do like a lot of like customer demos to like large banks and all. And I came back from the demos and they were all excited. Oh, that looks cool and everything. And I came back and like, you know, and then I sent them a follow-up email and no one responded. And you know, it turned out like, you know, it's like they're all like, oh, it's cool. They didn't want to say that to me. but no one was willing to buy because our product wasn't really the right thing. But of course you go through those periods when like, you know, are you going to succeed or you're going to not? But there are a lot of periods like that. Even Harness, we've gone through those, like, you know, the last, you know, it's not like things were not like that streamlined. Like, you know, COVID hit initially, response was okay, what will happen to everyone? You know, you go through, uh, uh, you know, cutting your expenses, you know, it's very hard things to do when you have to lay off people because you have to prepare for those things. So those are like times when like, you know, would you survive through it? Would you succeed through it? And, you know, yes, you find your way. Then like, you know, the, you know, you had the financial system with interest rates and all change, you know, the pressures on the businesses change. So you have to adapt and adjust through it. You know, even now, like the AI moment is such a critical moment. Like, you know, it's the— there is no like smooth straight line always. Like, you know, from outside it looks like it. Like, you know, at AppDynamics, this was, you know, billion-dollar valuation is still a big deal but not as big as it used to be at that time. This was like 2013, like, you know, unicorn billion dollars is a big deal. Our first time we became a unicorn, like a billion-dollar round, and, you know, I was talking to the reporter, like a reporter, and the reporter asked me this question, like, you know, how did you feel when you get the call that you're a billion-dollar valuation now? And yet I was looking at this like, it's not like that. Like, you know, to get to that billion-dollar valuation, I was like 6 6 months of fundraising process and hard work on it. So what you— it's not that I just one day out of the blue I got a call and like, you know, $1 billion valuation and how do you feel about it? You know, it's, it's— that's the part that gets missed around behind it.

Yes, that's so wise. It's so wise. What do you wish you had known earlier on your journey?

It's a constant learning process. I realize that it's better to try to learn and faster, you know, it's all about the learning curve of how fast we can learn. There is no— it's all about the, you know, building a company. Entrepreneurship is constant change. Yes, you learn things, you learn some patterns, you, you get wiser over time on things, but so many things are different and so many things are changing all the time, and you have to learn, you have to adapt, you have to adjust. And figuring out that, like, how do you do it and what are the things— so that's one. Second is like getting good in like, you know, what should you be leaning in more yourself, what you should delegate. Like, because you go with like, you know, okay, I'm doing everything, to I'm delegating everything, to what should I do? But that, there is a balance, like where is the, where do you get there? Like, you know, now I've realized like for every CEO, like, you know, you have to lean in your superpower, whatever your superpower is, whether it's like, you know, go-to-market, sales, you know, operational, product strategy, engineering, whatever it is, like, you know, and then you find, you try to delegate the rest and you create the alignment around it. But like, you know, It took me some time to figure that out. Like, you know, it's like the fully I do everything or I delegate everything. It's like, where is the right balance? What are the things? What are the right time? There are time when delegation makes sense. There's the time when it doesn't make sense. There are time when, you know, there are areas where it makes sense, areas doesn't. So that is just developing that skill or a sense. I wish I could— I did it earlier.

Yeah, it's not binary. It's like a dynamic tension. Totally. The last question is, what advice do you have for other founders? As they embark on their journeys to grow into leaders?

I would say that it's constant evaluation is very— is definitely one. Like, every step of the company is different. There are different skills that you have to learn, so you have to be open to doing that. The advice I give to people is like, you know, just think of like, what do you need to achieve in the next 18 months as a goal, as a company? Like, you know, that I want to go from, you know, today we just started the company, I want to become the first $5 million in revenue in the next 18 18 months or some goal, right? So what skills you need to have as an organization and as a CEO to get there? So maybe the goal is, okay, in the first 18 months we just need to build our product. So the only skills you need is engineering and product skills. But if the goal is, okay, we need to also get revenue, then you— and $5 million of revenue, I need salespeople— then you need to develop that skill, you know. And then let's say now the next goal is go from 5 to 25. That means you have to have like 300 people in your organization. And 300 people needs like now the people management skills at that level as well, like, you know, so now that's a skill you need to develop. So the advice I give to founders, like, first of all, like, don't go too far. Sometimes founders go the inverse of it, like, I'm learning this, reading this book about like, you know, how a 10,000-person company operates and CEO operates there, and you're like, you know, I was like, don't waste your energy on that. I don't know how to, you know, it's like, just find the— what do you need to achieve in the in the next 18 months, what skills you need, just focus on that and concentrate your learning and you go deep into learning everything about that and becoming good at that and achieve that. Now you go to the next thing and you say, okay, what do you need to learn and achieve? And you know, there's otherwise there's so much information and so much learning like that, that overwhelms you as well. Like you learn what you need like for that period, become very good at it, then go to the next level is what I normally tell founders.

I love it. Very powerful. Jyoti, you're amazing. Thank you so much for this conversation. It was really, really valuable. I know people are getting a lot of value out of it.

Thank you so much. Great conversation and great to be here.

Thanks for listening to From Startup to Grownup. If you like what you heard, give it a review on Apple Podcasts so other people can find it. And if you know of a founder or someone else who is meant to be on this podcast, drop me a line through my website, alisacohn.com.