#15: Ilan Twig, TripActions

Welcome to From Startup to Grown up, the podcast. My name is Alyssa Cohn. I'm an executive coach, an angel investor, and the author of From Startup to Grown Up. Each week I talk to founders, creators, advisors, investors and builders of all kinds about their insights and experiences in going from startup to grownup. This is episode number 15 and I'm thrilled to welcome Elon Twig to the show. Elon is the co founder and CTO of Trip Actions and this is the second company he co founded with Ariel Cohen. We discussed how their first company got acquired after nine months and why Elon knew that he'd found his next company with Ariel. We also talk about how the pandemic obviously threatened to bring their business to zero and how they leaned on their mission and their culture to create 80 new features and an entirely new tool during this incredibly difficult time. We talked about the nightmares that Elon had about not being able to code, about how a surprising diagnosis helped him understand his leadership style. This is a value packed and intimate discussion. So please enjoy my conversation with Elon Twig. Elon, welcome to the show. It is great to have you here today. I want to start by asking you. I want to start by going back to, you know, this traumatic moment for all of us. You know, Trippactions was founded in March 2015 by you and Ariel Cohen, your CEO. And you guys were up and to the right. You were like a rocket ship. And then suddenly for all of us, a global pandemic broke out. And for you at travel business, that was like really more intense than even for everybody else, I guess. I'm wondering, can you bring us back to that moment where you realized that there was going to be a real problem, that this pandemic was going to cause a real problem?

Yeah, absolutely. So, hey, hey, thanks. Nice to see you again. And thanks for having me in your podcast. Yeah. You know, being, having a travel company, when a global pandemic breaks, it's an experience for sure. And when Ariel and I started the company, we, we did think a lot. We started it rather late, I think, compared to a lot of other founders. Both of us were in, in our very, very early 40s when we started it. So there's advantages and disadvantages, but definitely one of the advantages is we thought a lot about competitors and competitions and how can we make sure that what we do will stay unique? How can we shape the culture in a way such that the company will stay always sharp and always on top of the new things and in other words, will not be disrupted? And I think that we did cover a lot. Like, I think we covered everything. And the proof was that the first four and a half to five years almost things went really well and we kept growing at a really, really insane pace. Pace of around 20 to 25% growth every month.

Every month. Yeah, yeah, it's intense.

It's, it's intense. It's very intense. But yeah, the one thing that we haven't thought about that could, that could, you know, disrupt us or stop us is a global pandemic we haven't thought about. And what if there would be a global pandemic? There would be a virus where people would be afraid to fly, borders would be shut, countries would be isolated, people will not leave their house. We haven't thought about something like that. And the impact was it was very intense. January, February went really well. We kept seeing the crazy growth that we used to see and then within four to six weeks everything went down to zero. And I don't think that these things, something like that happened in the past. There's been recessions or slowdowns. Companies, you know, that used to grow 2x did not grow at all. But here we're talking about, forget the growth. We already had a very solid revenue stream that was growing at a very high pace every month. And within six weeks it went down to 0.000. Not even close to 0 or around 00. So what do you do first? I learned a lot about, I think human behavior in this time because I knew about this virus back in November, I heard about it. It was in China, in a city called Wuhan. And it's just that, okay, so it's in Wuhan, China. If you told me if the same thing started in November of 2019 in Manhattan, New York or Paris or London or Tel Aviv, I would probably say, oh my God, there is a virus. But it was in Wuhan, China. So here. Okay, you can tell me. Mars, to me, it's the same. And it's just, I think, you know, a lot of people around me, it's just like no one was concerned. And I remember that I started to get concerned and there was 3,75,000 cases in Wuhan, China. And I remember that people started to get concerned when there were 130 cases in Milan, in Italy, oh my God, there's a virus in the world. What's going on? And the next day it's 400 and the next day it's a thousand. So yes, I think that it took some time for me and also for, I think A lot of people. To realize what's going on.

Yeah.

And to realize that it's, it's. It is. It's a real thing and it's not on Mars and it's right here. And the world is one. One big, you know, town or village. And if it's in Wuhan, it's everywhere. And yes. So there was this, I think, I would say about a week, maybe 10 days of transforming my. The way that I was thinking about it or transitioning from. There is something going on on the other side of the planet to, to reality is changing right here, right now. And it's a big, big, big change. And I think once the transition was done and in my head, it was, okay, it's happening. When I concluded that no one will be on an airplane, it's when I saw. I saw a 25% decline in bookings, I knew that it's going to get to zero at that point. We started to function these seven to 10 days. We didn't know what to do. It's like the world is changing. We don't know. We haven't really accepted it. We haven't really acknowledged it fully. And so we haven't done anything about it once we concluded. At least that's how I remember it really vividly in my head. Once I told myself, it's happening like what we say in Wuhan is just a preview. Like, it's everywhere. And no one will book a flight, all flights will be canceled. And it's just a matter of time that. That countries will start shutting down the borders and make the whole concept of airlines obsolete. It's just a matter of. And I think it took maybe two or three weeks after for all of these things to happen. But I was, I was at least a bit more ready for that because. But everything happened very quickly. And then the biggest question, I guess is, so what do you do, right? Like, what do you do when your company's revenue go down to zero in four weeks?

Right. You know, but actually, Ilan, the first question for me is, how did you feel? Did you feel like everything we've worked for is like, going to go to nothing? Or did you feel like, oh, we'll figure it out.

Not even for a slight second did I feel that. I'll tell you, I think that the journey that you go as an entrepreneur and as a co founder is a journey that is full of challenges and full of moments where you feel like you hit a mountain that now you need to cross. So to me, the journey of trip Actions, for example, is a journey of crossing the biggest mountain that you've ever seen, getting to the other side to then realize that there's a much bigger mountain waiting for you right there. And I think that the mind, the mindset that I have and my co founder, Ariel Cohen has is that, you know, things happen and our goal is to make it, make it work. When we started Trip Actions, it was borderline stupid. I mean, it was borderline stupid. I think that a lot of startups, when you start them, if you ask people from the industry about whatever the new idea is, the new approach, they will tell you, you know, it's a. I don't know, good luck. And that's what we heard. Good luck with that. We heard, we heard it from experts in the field back in 2000 and late 2014, like, you know, just take your talent and apply it somewhere else. That the things like that. Very clear that there's no confusion. But that's what it is. It's a. As long as you keep the fine line between being stupid and being naive, I think, I think being naive is where the magic happens. And if you are naive and you're not biased, you don't have the biases that all people from that industry already have. And that's why they don't start new companies. They don't start something new because that's how they think and that's what makes them really good at what they do. I think if you are naive enough, that's where you can create space for a lot of innovation. So, yes, Ariel and I had the idea, we were really naive. I had no idea how complicated and complex the travel market is. It's very complicated to book a flight. It's a complicated thing. It's not an API call, which I assumed. And in many ways, if I knew everything that I know today about travel, if I knew it back then, most likely I would conclude in the same way that we've been told multiple times, just go do something else. I would do something else. So, yeah. So I think to get back to your question, what was crossing my mind? Did I feel like, oh, my God, we are so. We're in a big problem right now, obviously. Big problem, yes, but doomed. Absolutely not. I guess the other thing that I can tell you about the approach to life of being an entrepreneur is you're not a victim. You never are. And with that, it means that, okay, things happen, you're not a victim. So go and figure it out. Go and figure it out, and everything can be figured out everything. And if you have this approach, you can really build amazing companies, amazing products, amazing things.

Yeah. Because as an entrepreneur anyway, you had to kind of beat the odds to your point. You know, everyone told you you'll never be able to do it, and you had to beat the odds. So this feels like it was another. Just another mountain or obstacle that you had to deal with. And that's. That's great for you as a founder. And I know that you and Ariel together were, you know, sort of a team in this, but I would just say for my clients, what I experience is that the founders, they got it just to. You said, like, okay, are we still alive? Okay, good. Is our company still okay? Our employees. Okay. But they received a lot, you know, from their employees themselves, like, when is this going to end and what's going to happen? You know, looking for that certainty because employees are kind of, by definition, not founders. You must have also experienced that from your team. Like, what is this going to end and are we going to be okay? How did you. What did you hear from your team and how did you handle it?

Yeah, that's actually absolutely true. So the way that I experienced it, and I think that it probably is very similar to the way that my co founder experienced it, there was this initial moment of like, what the fuck? Then there was, okay, that's what's happening. And then you become an entrepreneur again. So we had a running company. We knew that layoffs would be part of it because you have to be very responsible about the money. And if you think about it, you know, we raised money a few months before the pandemic started. So what does it mean, raising money? It means that Ariel and I, cfo, but Ariel and I, really, as the founders, we met with people and told them, give us money, and that's what we promise you. And. And now everything's changed, right? Because the plan obviously is changing. We will not be able to. We had zero revenue. No one booked a flight. Our business model back then was we make money when there is usage in our system. Usage is people book flights, hotels, cars, train. That's how we make money. And it was very. It was by design like that. And the idea behind it, or the concept behind it was as long as we attach the revenue of the company to usage, we force the company to always focus, to always make sure that users use the product so it will keep us sharp, make sure that the product is good and keep improving it and measuring the right things. And so it's a lot of thinking behind it. We didn't think about a pandemic where the product could still be amazing, but no one uses it because of a virus, not because there is a better product out there. So, but, but that's, that's what happened. So we, we had to adjust the plans and we had to be responsible towards ourselves, towards the company, towards the board, towards the investors. We, we had to burn less money during this time. So at the. Everything happened simultaneously. So we did that to be more responsible with the, with the money. And then we realized that we have a lot of travelers, Trip actions, employees all over the world. And now it's very difficult to manage the situation because there is no, you know, there was, There was people in Italy and Iran, I remember that. And the first country that the CDC said do not go to was Iran, followed by Italy two days later, followed by warnings about France and Germany and Spain two days later, followed by do not go there three days later. How do you manage it? How do you. And then if you come back, you need to quarantine. Oh, you came back last week, you still need to be in the office, at home for seven more days, because. So it was chaotic and we thought about it and then we said, holy shit. Or holy cow. Sorry for the language. Holy cow. All of our customers experienced that thing, some of them at a much higher scale. And it was a Friday, so we walked throughout the weekend and we created the first. We call it the Corona Dashboard, which allows business travel managers and companies to manage the travel program where travelers are at, how to communicate with them, which countries to block so that they will not be able to book during a pandemic, and not just a pandemic during a time where the reality changes every two days and the guidelines change. Change every two days. And the way to do it was we actually connected the system to the cdc. So if the CDC says do not go to Italy, it blocks it across iOS, Android, Web. No one can book a flight to Italy. If the CDC says that if you come back from Iran you need to quarantine for 14 days, it automatically communicates to travelers that are. If you are in Iran, it says you get back home immediately. If you just came back yesterday, it will tell you you have 14 days to quarantine. And if you came back last week, it will tell you you have seven more days to quarantine. So managing the communication, when the reality changes every day, we made it basically seamless. So all sorts of. On Monday, there was this new dashboard and business travel managers could just say, yes, I want to do it. I want to use it. It's a checkbox. Once you do that, everything happens behind the scenes, blocking it. And, and you don't need to follow, you don't need to read every day what the CDC recommends and then send email to the company, tell them don't do this, don't, don't fly. Yesterday I told you it's okay. Now it's not okay. So, so what I wanted to say on this one. So first thing was be responsible about the money. And the second thing was actually what should we do? So it was let's do what we've done all the way as a company until the pandemic hit us. So then there was a hiccup for seven to 10 days where we was confused. We were confused. But after that it was clear we need to continue to work on a product that generates value to our users. It's just what they need change. They don't need the best booking tool in the world because they don't book, but they need the best tool to manage a travel program. And travelers, wherever they are, take control over the situation, guide them, manage the situation. So, and this tool, obviously no company had this tool in the, in the, in the world because it's the first time that we had to deal with a situation like that. I still don't think that there is any other company other than Trip Actions that has this tool. And that was just V1. But now you can think of a very healthy and beefy roadmap for this dashboard. As the situation evolved, we kept beefing it up and adding more and more and more value because that's what our users needed and that's what we focused on, generating value.

So it's, I mean, really, you're saying so many things. I mean it sounds like you're saying we'll get into culture in a little bit. But like that your culture and your values were about providing value to the customer. And that also you use this downtime, if you will, this uncertainty time and certainly downtime in the travel industry for your business to create something different. It sounds like probably you were, you were able to get your employees to rally around that also in the nicest way to keep them busy. Right, because everyone's like their minds are going to terrible places and they're having a lot of stress like all of us did at that time. But it was a way to kind of like consolidate and crystallize your employees efforts. Is that about right?

Yeah, absolutely. Another thing that happened, so we had layoffs, but then Also, people left. It was a travel company, and it felt like for some time that it's going down, it's a sinking ship, call it whatever you want. So people made their decision. Some. Some of them and decided to leave, but those. But a lot of people stayed. And those who stayed were exactly as you said they were, rallied around the mission. And it's those people that joined for the mission, and it was very clear for them what they need to do. It's like, okay, we have a mission and that's what we are doing. And. And it became very clear. And when it's clear, when there's no confusion, you forget about, yes, there is the virus out there, but you forget, you really focus on generating value. So I think that there was an impact probably on trip actions, probably for two to three months, if I want to take into account everything when we had the layoffs, which is really a terrible thing. I mean, it's really not nice.

Yeah, talk about that a little bit, because I know that that was obviously something that happen. There was some, you know, publicized, you know, comments about the way that that happened at trip. Trip action. So talk about that a little bit.

Let's talk about that, because I definitely have a belly full of stuff. But I'll tell you what happened. I think if we look backwards now, it's very clear that all companies and all businesses, except for or minus a few exceptions like Zoom or Amazon, and there's probably a few more that. That flourished during this, but most businesses slowed down. It's just some of them got impacted immediately. Airlines, hotels, travel agencies, trip actions, and some of them got impacted later because everything slows down. So I stay home, I don't go to a restaurant. Then restaurants got impacted, then hairdresser, hair salons. And then. And the entire, you know, it was just pharmacies and groceries or whatever that kept operating, but everything else was shut down. It just took some time. So we were really at the forefront of. In the Silicon Valley, one of the, like, definitely a growing company, very high profile. We really were the darling of the Valley for a few years in a row. And now this company was the first company that had to respond because we had zero revenue in four weeks. Zero. We didn't have to wait for the implications six months later.

It wasn't confusing.

It was not confusing. And it was immediate and big, really big. So we made the decision that we have to do it. Then there was a shelter in place. So if there's a shelter in place, you do it over Zoom. Now, when you do it over Zoom. It doesn't mean that it's unhuman. It just means that it's not physically in the same room. Now, obviously, those people that we had to lay off were people that we hired. Some of them we just hired. So we wanted them to be in the company. And it was very, very, very painful to do this process. I do want to highlight a few things. Yes, we were the first company that did that. Most companies in the valley had to go through that a month later or six weeks later, and they all did it by Zoom because there was a shelter in place. So I really do not get those criticism towards us Trip actions. Laid off over Zoom. It was either that or it's a federal offense. A B between me and my co founder. We met on a one on one fashion over Zoom with all of the 260 people that we. That we had to lay off all of them because we care. On top of that, there was a virus out there in the first few weeks. You know, you don't really know what this virus is. And I paid a lot of attention. You know, I sanitized everything. I got the mail. I sanitize the mail. Do I sanitize it now? Absolutely not. Like, right.

We all had to sanitize our groceries. I mean, it was a different time.

We didn't know what was going on.

Yeah.

Right. So it was, it was scary. Definitely was. Was more scary. But yeah, I just remember that the beginning was. Was. Was definitely. The beginning was different. It was definitely different. But yeah, I think that when we look, look on what happened, all companies had to do that.

Yeah.

And it doesn't, it doesn't make it a pleasant experience. No, it's a terrible experience. But it makes it a. I think that it was not. I don't think that anyone should have been shocked or surprised to see a company, a travel agency that gets to zero revenue in four, four weeks has to respond to that somehow. That's why I found it puzzling back then. But, you know, but it's noise. It was noise. It did not confuse us for a second.

Yeah. I think, and I think your point about being a high profile company, you know, the sun can tan and make you look golden brown and beautiful and the sun can also burn. Right. So when you're too close to the sun. I think the question is, and with some of the reading that I was doing is that there was a report that you gathered all the employees and like laid them off on Zoom all together. I think that's what. And by the way you, you aren't the only company that ultimately did that. I mean, I think your point about leading the way is that it was very shocking for everybody. Everybody was responding, reacting, not even responding, but reacting to what was happening without any context at all because it was so early. But I think what you just said, that you met one on you and Ariel met one on one with the individuals, that wasn't what got out to the news.

There was no massive layoffs. There was no event like that. There was no event where there was 100 people on the call and said, hi, you're fired. Like, what?

Really?

Yeah, seriously, like. So I think that there was a lot of frustration. What I wanted, my point of that I mentioned earlier, it was a scary time when it comes to the virus because we did not know anything about it. And therefore, you know, if you, if you get, if you lose your job, you use, you use your, you lose your health insurance. And that's why we actually, we thought about all of that. And like, I think about it, if it was my brother, if I had to let my brother, you know, lose his job, I would want him to, at least for the next six months, to have health insurance. And we did that. We did it because it was really, really important because, because like, seriously, if this virus turned out to be really deadly and like, like Omicron spreads really fast, but also deadly, I want to make sure that people have the right to get to the hospital. Especially in America where if you don't have health insurance. It's scary.

It's just so scary.

Yeah, it's very scary.

And it was in that time too. So I guess now, I mean, I hear you and I think that's a very helpful context. And to your point, you are not the only company that had to reduce headcount and also be wary of. Just be mindful of money. If I then ask you to turn the attention to culture, sort of, how do you think that you promoted maybe your cultural values? Like what are your cultural values and how did they show up during the early stage of the pandemic? And how do they show up today now that everyone's working remotely anyway?

Yeah, a Trip Actions is an in person company. We really believe in in person. And if you check my Twitter account, I just tweeted an article that was published today on TechCrunch. Not by Trip Actions. Okta published the. I don't know how. I guess it's by the number of logins or activations and they basically ranked companies by being in person And Trip Actions came in number two after notion. And I tweeted it and I said, we really believe in in person connection. That's what we do. We bring people together to promote ideas and concepts and we also follow it ourselves. So Trip Actions is an in person company. I'm sure that after this experience, but actually before that we used Zoom as well. But I really think that if I want to sell you something, I can meet with you over dinner and have a glass of wine and talk about it, or I can do a Zoom with you, but if my competitor will meet with you over dinner, I will meet with you over dinner as well. Or I can choose to do it over Zoom and lose. Life goes on. Life is all about being in person. So that's about this one. But going back to the question about culture, it's a really, really good question. And I think that that's what makes companies special or not special. It was very clear for us as a company what we're focusing on all along. And that's why it was successful. It was about, you know, it started with how we make money as a business. Fundamentally what drives our success and existence. It was usage. It's all about usage. So all employees in the company, new, old, you ask them, hey, what's the number one value in the company? They will tell you, it's all about the user, all of them, all the time. There's no downtime for users. And it doesn't matter which user you are. You can be the admin, the CEO, the delegate, the traveler, the one that travels every four times a month, or the one that travels twice a year. No confusion. So I think that when there's no confusion about those things, yes, there was a pandemic and everyone was shaken. But as I told you very quickly, we went back to what we know how to do best and it's to focus on the user and generate value. We just did not imagine prior to the pandemic that we would need to connect to the cdc. If you asked me in January or February, hey, I think that if you connect your system to the cdc, it would be fantastic. I will tell you. Have you lost your mind?

Why would we do that?

Why would you do that? But guess what? It became an amazing feature. And the number of emails, very emotional emails that we got, I remember that Monday I got like 60 emails thanking us long. Thank you. It wasn't, hey, thanks. It's like you saved us. You saved us. How would I manage this thing otherwise? It's so special, so special. And I think the trip actions really started to separate itself from other companies that are not technical by nature. A lot of our competitors are more traditional and less technical. And I think that it became very evident how technology and data actually can be really helpful and actually is needed to manage a modern travel program and how you can no longer rely on solutions that are not data driven, not technical, not in real time with low adoption, et cetera. So that was actually beautiful to see how people want to rally around the mission. People need it. And those that stayed. And again, some chose to leave, but those that stayed, I think. Well, I don't think I'm judging by Results. We produced 80 different features in the first 12 months of the pandemic. None of which you would probably would have done otherwise.

Right. I mean, I have to say that for all the companies that I work with, it really activated creativity and you know, the notion of like constraints and focus and like connection back to what are we in business for and what are we in service to activated so much creativity. And it sounds like you were saying that totally happened with you guys too.

Yeah, totally. I can tell you that was a, it's a funny story, but I'm an engineer, a software engineer and that's my education and that's my experience and that's what I love. But for two months from April to June of 2020, I, I think that I would, could have been qualified as, as an epidemiologist because we realized that the notion of the R factor or the reproductive production number.

Yeah.

Became popular and hey, what's the R factor there? What's there? But at that point in time, there was no single source where you could actually see the R factor in real time across all the countries in the world. So we developed it because we thought that people start to look at this number to assess risk. So In June of 2020, users of Trip actions, as soon as you type, you just say, I want to fly to Amsterdam. You just type ams, which is the, the airport in Amsterdam. We immediately populate the obvious things, the number of new cases, 7 day average moving average deaths. So you can, you can get visibility. But we then also started to populate the R factor over time and you can see if it's trending down or up. And again, you can assess the risk by yourself and make a decision. It became so popular and people loved it because there was no other source that we actually took this component and made it available on our website publicly. So anyone that had any interest to see what's the R Factor in this country or that country could just see it.

So providing data to sort of. You're talking about using that data to really provide a service. People can educate themselves and get their own information.

Exactly. It's empowering them. The notion back then was we cannot make a decision for anyone, but we can empower them to assess the risk and make decisions. Because even during the pandemic, there were people that had to fly for operational stuff. And we thought that this way we could just help them assess the risk and make a decision that is a bit more informed, a bit more data driven, as opposed to calling. Because what people used to do is call and say, hey, what's going on there? Is it safe? You know, do you think that it's okay if I can.

Right.

Which is. Which is beautiful and you should do that. But we wanted to provide another dimension that is a bit more data driven and more, you know, less. Less subjective that way.

Right. I love it. So you're an engineer, as you said, and now you're an epidemiologist, obviously.

So you're a doctor.

And yet the job you do now as CTO and also really as co founder is a far cry from coding and sort of figuring technical stuff out. I'm just wondering how you have adapted. Like, if you think about your journey as a leader, not as an engineer, how do you sort of describe your journey as a leader and what's it like to do constant adaptation like that.

So we can talk about being an executive for companies that scale really quickly? I think that's very fascinating. There is a lot of insights. But if you specifically, more about myself being an engineer and being really, really, really passionate about that. So it's not just being an engineer. It's. I love to build things. I really, really, genuinely love to build things. I do not love to manage, you know, organizations of hundreds of people. I've done that in the past. I've done that at Repractions. But the thing that really, really gets me excited and stimulates me, makes me very curious and pushes me to the limits of everything that I can do is building stuff. So the way what my role at Trip Actions, it's a cto. I also have a few engineers that have been with us for anywhere between seven and six years now. And most of them I know from, you know, some of them I know for 25 years. And so they report to me. They're just engineers reporting to me. They report to me. I'm like a team lead. An engineer that is a team lead with A lot of influence in the company because I'm also a co founder and the cto and we build stuff. We build things that yesterday seemed impossible. That's the mission of this team. And this gives me a ton of spark. And also I think that this is what will really help A, our users, B, the industry. Some of the things that we are cooking there could have a huge impact on the entire industry. I'm talking airlines, hotels and other travel agencies. So like at scale. But again, four, five engineers, that's it. I can't talk about it right now, but I can tell you that the project that we are currently getting to fruition is transformative for the company. I'm not being cocky. I would be less inclined to compete with Trip Actions. If I hear about what we just built here, I would just say, you know what, that's just too much. Let's do something else.

Fold up shop.

Yeah, yeah. And it's fine. You know, when we picked the market, we also looked on the players and we analyzed it and we wanted to know what we're getting into. Going and competing with Google on search is tough going. Competing with Apple on a phone is tough. And one of the reasons is that they keep pushing their product forward. So that's what I want to do with this team is to keep pushing Trip Actions forward and build the things that seem almost impossible. Like the Face unlock. If in 2007, 8. So the iPhone was released in 2006. If in 2008 you tell you you don't need to unlock it. All phones had. You had to punch in the code. There was no, you know, fingerprint, there was nothing. And I said no, you just stare at would sound. Sound completely impossible.

Right.

And people will say it will never work because you need a good camera and the battery, it has to scan all the time. How would you know to capture it now? And it would not work. You would need a huge battery. But they did it and they did it and now it's more difficult to compete with them. Because now if you want to compete about the experience, that's part of the experience. So now go build the Face Unlock. And I can tell you that as far as I know, there is Windows hello. That I haven't tried. And I don't know how it works. Supposed to work like Face id, but on the mobile phones. So that's what you're building for Trip Actions, your version. Yeah, the version of Face id.

So competitors be warned. All the competitors should be warned.

No competitors. You're welcome. Like seriously, because if there would have been no competitors, maybe there would have been no team like that. You know what I mean? So I actually think it's all good and I'm looking forward to see innovation coming from competitors because it will keep me and us sharp.

Yeah, good. I love that. But obviously things change. So what you said was that you did run organizations that were like a lot of people. Probably before Trip Actions. And during trip Actions, what insight did you get about leadership, about management during that period? And then what also made you decide? You know what? I want a small team and I want to just build stuff. Like tell us about that journey.

Yeah, maybe at this point I'll share something about myself that I just discovered. The I. A few months ago, I was diagnosed with a very light. Light autotism. It used to be called Asperger's. Now it's one scale. Sorry, the autism scale is. There's one. And I'm on the far end of one of them. So I'm right there. And I'm saying that because I think that my leadership style is very particular to what I am and how I am. So, you know, with Asperger, for example, you. You're very genuine because you don't have this sophistication. I'm a really single layer person and if you want to confuse me, have a second layer and talk there and I will not understand what you want. You can have. You know how you can talk with sub context and stuff. I don't see subcontext, I see context. I do not see sub context. So I'm saying that because that's how I work with my teams and it's very simple, it's very respectful, it's very to the point. There is no. I don't play games because I don't know how to play games and I don't care about those games. So that's how I see the world in a simple single layer. And at least that's my experience with myself. I think that maybe other people with the. With us for Girls might experience it differently. And so it's. And my passion is to build stuff. So I think that, you know, growing up was. Did require some adjustments which I've acquired prior to Trip Actions. Where my career back then was to become a more senior manager and a more senior manager and a more senior manager. That was my career at Trip Actions. I did not see it as, hey, I started a company. How would my personal success look like in a few years? If you asked me back in the past, I would say today I manage 35 people. I would like to manage a global organization of 300 people. And it's very legitimate at trip actions. Never did I see it like that. I always saw it as trip actions. I want to build. I want to build and I want to build. So today I actually do not manage a huge organization. A huge organization. I have an SAP of engineering offer. Ben David, he's amazing and he runs the organization and he runs it really well. He runs it better than the way I did, focusing on many things that I did not focus on. And this thing works really, really well together. You know, I can talk for hours about what does it mean to step up from being. Not step up, but changing your role from being a really good software engineer to now run a team?

Yeah, actually pause right there. Actually be helpful to hear what that was like for you.

Well, the first month I had weird dreams where weird dreams. And they were all about, who am I to tell them what to do? That's what it was all about because I was an engineer working with them. And then some one day they reported to me and I had to tell them what to do. So there was some personal adjustment. I don't think that it happens to everybody. Probably most people don't experience it this way.

Well, just to tell you, actually, most people do experience that.

Oh, really?

Yeah. That's very normal. Very normal to be like. Especially what you're saying is that I was their peer on Friday and on Monday I was their manager.

Yes.

That's uncomfortable.

Yes, yes. So I use it as like a guiding style for me. And I told myself, hey, continue to develop. Continue to write code. Like, who says that now you're not allowed to, like, you know what? Change. I'm responsible for the outcome of this bunch of people. That's the only thing that changed. I went through that, by the way, I had those dreams and I had a few nightmares and the nightmares were that I can't code. In all of these nightmares, I can't code.

You lost your ability to code.

I lost my ability to code. And I was a really, really good engineer. I mean, it's a passion. Right. So I think that those dreams are really telling. Right. You don't need a psychiatrist here to analyze it, a fortune teller to analyze it. But yeah, so I use it as a guiding style for me. And I told myself, hey, continue to develop. Continue to write code. Like, who says that now you're not allowed to. I became almost like pissed off about myself that I even like, you know what changed? I'm Responsible for the outcome of this bunch of people. That's the only thing that changed. Now what's the best way to do it? I actually figured out that in a team, when I'm managing a team, for me, the way to get to the best outcome is to code as well. That's my philosophy. So why? Because I work with developers that write code every day. I need to be able to talk to them, to them about what happens. I need to be able to talk to the point. And then with this realization, I said, okay, if this team lead versus the other team lead versus the other team lead, those that report to me now, if they have their own path, their own approach, I should let them do it. So that's what I learned. That I learned to operate more under the concept of freedom and responsibility. So that's something that works well with, it actually works well with first line managers. It actually works well on all levels. I still apply it today. As a company, we apply this approach. It's freedom and responsibility. You know, we hired you because whoever you are, whatever level, you can be an svp, you can be a director, a team lead or individual contributor. We hired you for, we went through the interviews, we decided that you should join the company because you, you bring value. Now you joined, now it's a reset. Now we need to bring value. Now to bring value, we need to feel that you are free to talk, free to suggest, free to question, free to criticize. And so that's the freedom part. You have freedom and then people are different, they have different approaches. I think that I would have failed as a team lead if my boss wouldn't let me code because he thought that it's a mistake. He said, he told me, you want to fail, do it. So he gave me the freedom, but the responsibility was there. He did not give me any discount. But I can tell you that back then, that was a Mercury Interactive. That's where I met Ariel, by the way, back in 2002. 3.

You know, I want to talk a little bit about Ariel, Arielle and your relationship, but before I do, I just want to push a little bit or tease a little bit out what you said. Freedom and responsibility. That's, that's lovely. And by the way, when you hire the right people then and you give them this goal and the mission and create the right culture, they want to do a great job and everybody's working together harmoniously and it works, that's great. But surely there are moments where that breaks down where you give someone freedom and so called Responsibility, it doesn't work, and you have to part ways. What's that conversation look like when that.

Has to happen, I'll tell you. In order to address this question, I think that I'll take a step back and we can talk about the hiring process. One of the steps of the hiring process is to let go very quickly. It's part of the hiring process. So there's three months, four months. It doesn't end when you hire the person, because there's so much that you can learn about a person when you meet with them for one hour, two hours, four hours in the office, over coffee, over dinner. So you can definitely do stuff to get more exposure in different setups, and then we can talk more about that. But there is the last step. The last step is, okay, now the person is there. What's happening? Be very quick to let go. If you see that it's not working. Well, I cannot say that I'm the quickest person to part ways. I'm not the quickest. Maybe it's me just being very. Maybe too open. But I'm not saying it as a sneaky, complimentary to myself. I think that it is a flaw, and I will tell you why. I think that if you don't do it quick enough, you're being disrespectful to the person. I think that you're being disrespectful towards the company and the peers and lastly for yourself. So there's no good way to look at it. I think that the fact that I, in some cases, definitely did it too slowly. So to your question. I think that it needs to happen quickly. I think that I see it as part of the hiring process. It's the last stage. Yeah. Hiring is very challenging, given. Given all of that. And I think that. That there is a good process that keeps evolving all the time. You still make mistakes, and it's still sometimes very unfair for the candidates. But that's why I think the last step is to recognize that. That there was a mistake. It's not saying recognize that. That the employee failed. It's recognized that there was a mismatch.

Yeah.

And, you know, be respectful towards them at that point. That's the last step of the interview. Yep.

I love what you just said. In terms of the traits for. So you're really looking for intelligence and drive and passion and the spark of passion, as well as a gut sense of, like, are we meant to be together? Kind of.

Exactly. Exactly.

And then what you're saying is there's no onboarding plan. It's like, that's part of the hiring. Those three months are like, we're still in the hiring part. And I think that's very powerful to frame it that way because then if it doesn't work out, it's not like a failure. It's like, well, that was part of the hiring. It didn't work out.

It didn't work out. Exactly. Yeah, exactly.

So I'm curious because you're talking about the way you are with people and the way you click with people. People or don't click with people. And I'm wondering about your co founder and CEO, Ariel Cohen. And you met him and I, you talked about how you met him and I know that you all did a first startup together.

Yep.

I, I, I want to kind of say, fortunately and unfortunately for you, it got sold. You guys sold in only nine months. You're like, well, that wasn't, you know, that's what you wanted. So then you wanted to start up. You both knew that you were going to found another company together. So we. What is it about your relationship with Ariel and how you two work together that made you say, we're definitely going to do another company together?

Yeah, no, there was no doubt. And by the way, there was also no doubt that he would be the CEO and I will be the cto. And that's what I think. It makes it very special. There was no doubt about that. I think that Ariel and I are very different in the skills, the capabilities. I think that what I am when it comes to technology and software is what he is when it comes to life and managing operations. And it's a huge compliment because I know myself when it comes to technology, I lose perspective. And I think that he's like that on the other things. And this combination is super driven and super smart. Three months, I was much younger. The amount of drive and hunger that I had was uncontainable. And Ariel was at least as driven as I was and hungry. And yeah, we founded a company and nine months later we got sold. There was three months of due diligence in between, and it was a really, really good outcome for everybody that was involved. The employees, for us, for the investors. Nine months. And I think what I've learned throughout this, these nine months is A, to respect him a lot, B, to trust him. The trust came later. The respect was there because, you know, I heard of him, we used to work for the same company doing different roles since 2002 or something like that. Very early 2000. I always heard of him there was this Ariel and he admitted that he always heard of me. There is this crazy team leader that writes code. And then I moved to California in 2006 and he moved to California in 2009. At some point HP acquired Mercury Interactive. So both of us became HP employees. Both of us didn't like it. And then HP acquired Opsware, which was Ben. Ben Horowitz and Mark Andreessen's company. And I became the head of engineering for Opsware And Ariel was. Was holding a very senior position in the product organization. So we got to work together and that was pretty much the first time that, you know, we walked much, much closer together dealing with angry customers, bugs that I produced and he had to deal with it. And then, and I think from there it was three years later we started the stream on. But that was the first time that I really got to see him and in stream once. It took I think four or five months for me to fully trust him and I think vice versa. If you talk to him, probably a similar. Similar story from his side. And the result was, was good. Then when we started Trip actions, we were really focused, very driven. We both wanted to fulfill the desire to build a company that would have an impact, that would be meaningful at scale. We both wanted that. And the trust, I think is probably the most important thing.

How did you build trust when you said after it was four or five months it took and that's normal. I mean we can trust people a little bit instantly or initially, but it takes time to go through some trenches to then really have the trust. What happened in those four or five months that made you say I really trust him?

I can tell you that with me, I knew myself and I knew where my personal bar was at and I knew that I will never be able to sit in. It's so, you know, high up there. That's what I knew. And I. The starting point for me in Ariel was I assumed that his bar is not there. Almost assumed. I did not assume, but I was. I really wanted to know. I can tell you fast forward that his bar is probably even higher than mine. But it took time and he didn't build my trust. He earned my trust and he earned my trust by. I saw how dedicated he is. I saw how, you know, I remember this time where I was. He was sick. He had fever. It wasn't Covid.

Before Pre Covid.

There was a time, yeah, there was a time where people could be sick and it's not Covid and you know, is it Covid? No Thank God. Like, it could be. Nevermind.

Yeah.

Anyways, he was sick and he had a meeting with Salesforce in San Francisco and he was in Palo Alto. And I was waiting for him to tell me that he's sick and he cannot make it to the meeting. And the meeting was important. It was his meeting, not mine. So he tells me, dude, I'm like, I'm dead. And by the way, he's not spoiled. I. I know it now, but back then I did not. I'm dead. Like, I took pills. And I was saying, huh? I was just waiting for him to tell me and I decided not to go to then lash at him. It didn't happen. He just told me how miserable he is. And then I met him after the meeting. The guy was dead, but he did the meeting all the way through. And I learned something about me and I learned something about him. I learned that I underestimated or I didn't give him enough. I learned that I was too. I was more too doubtful for no reason. At least start neutral. If you don't know anything, you have no opinion. Like, start neutral. I started negatively. Like, I was pessimistic or whatever, like negative. I learned it about myself and I changed that. And I learned about him that the guy is like, nothing will stop him. Yeah. So it took some time, but this is just one example. But, you know, it didn't take much more than that to tell me who the guy is. And until now, you know, when we have. He will never cancel a meeting, even if the guy is like burning, burning with fever. Like he will pump himself with whatever medicine will make it through the meeting and then pass out. And it's true. And it's true.

So drive again back to drive insane. Drive insane.

Drive commitment. Drive. Sticking to the goal. If we set an artificial goal to ourselves, it's important because we said it, so we're going to meet it.

Yeah.

So.

So what would you say is the best part and the hardest part of your relationship with Ariel?

I think the best part is there is friendship. Friendship evolved over time and trust. So. And I can tell you the important thing is when I talk to Ariel, I never seek for comfort. And when he talks to. Talks to me, he doesn't never seek for comfort. We seek reality. We seek, you know, we seek being straightforward and to the point and to really speak up. That's what I say when I tell him something. I can come super excited about something and tell me what I think that it's. And I love that about the relationship and we can do it to each other. We had endless arguments when we built the company about what to do. And I remember there was a point in time where we had really, really tough arguments. And I told him, well, if you want to do that, you're going to kill the company, and I'm not going to kill the company. So I'm not going to do that. But it's good. I think that good discussions are discussions where you can really express yourself, and discussions where you can really express yourself are discussions that are backed up with trust. I trust that where he is coming from is for, for the best of the company and not for the best of his own career. And I fully trust that. So when he. This creates a space for a really honest, honest, straight, you know, a straightforward discussion with no fluffiness, with a really good discussion. By the way, both of us are Israelis and I've heard from some people, at least, that they think that Israelis are rude and straightforward. And I am proud of that. I think that it creates less anxiety when you know exactly who the person in front of you is and what he thinks about you. Maybe a little bit polishing would not be bad for Israelis. But, but in general, I, I like it that in Israel where you have a boss, you know where you are, and there's no anxiety and there's no surprises, it's good. It's actually a very good thing. So, so yeah, between me and him, it's. It's definitely like that. So these are the, the, the good moments. I think it's just sometimes it's, it's for the, on the same topic, sometimes it's very difficult because you get very. Call it harsh, but you get feedback that is very extreme and you need to have a conversation. You can't just walk away and say, you know what? I don't care, because you do. So, yeah, it's a very productive, challenging, and I think, result driven relationship.

And he pushes you and you push him.

Yeah.

Yeah, I could see that. You're right about it. I work with a few Israeli companies and it is true that what they say about Israelis, it's direct.

It's very direct. It's very direct.

Yeah, I see that.

It's like that. I've been in California for 16 years and my experience going back lately is I, I go back and the second I land in the airport, I feel like I'm surrounded with baboons. But, but five minutes later I want. I'm one of them.

Yeah.

It'S. Yeah. And then, then, and then there's no baboons. It's. We are all the same.

They're all the same. That's.

There is something. Yeah, there's something very liberating about being direct.

Yeah.

Yeah, I think it's knowing that it's liberating and knowing that the people around you are direct as well.

Yeah, exactly. Just a couple more questions before I let you go. What do you wish you had known earlier on your journey?

It would have been amazing if I knew that. That there's going to be a pandemic. Yes.

For all of us.

It would have been really nice. Aside from that, I think, as I said, I really believe in being naive. And because my job is being an entrepreneur and a founder, I don't want to know more than what I did. I told you, if I knew everything that I know today, if I knew that about travel, I would have probably had a startup in a different market. So I don't, I don't believe in being a victim. I think that, you know, I believe in being naive. I believe that anything can be done through software and solved. And these are my tools. And that's how I handle my, my professional life.

I love it. That's great.

And I embrace it.

And what advice do you have for other founders as they embark on their journey to grow into leaders?

To grow into leaders. Maybe one advice is your role is to be the co founder and the company needs its co founders. Because it's the vision that you have and it's the passion towards whatever it is that you do. It doesn't mean that you necessarily have to manage half of the organization. Maybe, yes, but maybe not. So don't, you know, embrace it. Don't put this expectation on yourself if you can do it and grow and grow and grow and grow. I think that's one advice. Then that would be this one about growing the journey.

Amazing. Oh my gosh, Ilan, this is such a wonderful and rich conversation. I can't thank you enough for joining me today. It was really, really great to spend time.

Cool. I really enjoyed it as well. And I knew it since we met in Lisbon. I knew that it's going to be a fun conversation. I feel very comfortable.

Amazing. Great.

Excellent.

Thank you.

Thanks so much. Bye. Bye. Bye.

Thanks for listening to From Startup to Grownup. If you like what you heard, give it a review on Apple podcast so other people can find it. And if you know of a founder or someone else who is meant to be on this podcast, drop me a line through my website, alyssacon.com.