325: 10+ Conference Networking Strategies with Alisa Cohn

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Mindset Matters when you go up to someone and you see someone, it's really helpful to get your mindset right and to kind of think actually just what you were saying before. Like, how am I going to approach them in a way which is sort of orthogonal and not about oh, I love your work, oh, I love your voice or, you know, whatever. It's a good practice for you to get in. And I think that best options and outcomes come from the work you do in meeting someone as a peer.

What's next? This is a question we're all having to ask and answer more frequently. I'm Jenny Blake, your host of the Pivot Podcast and author of Pivot. The only move that matters is your next one. For show notes from this episode, visit pivotmethod.com podcast if Change is the only constant, then let's get better at it. Here we go. Welcome back, Pivoters. I am so excited to have returning guest Alyssa Cohn here on the pod in person at Gotham Production Studios in New York City. Alyssa has been coaching startup founders to grow into world class CEOs for nearly 20 years. She's the author of a book called From Startup to Grownup, host of a podcast of the same name. She and my dear friend Dorie Clark are Broadway investors together. And the last time we recorded, also in person, they were on the Pivot podcast talking about getting into Broadway investing. But a big part of that episode was on networking. How do you build your network in a new space? Alyssa and I just got back from the TED conference, the big Kahuna one as I call it, in Vancouver, and a lot of our friends couldn't make it this year. So on kind of pre day one we text each other, we go, do you want to meet in the hotel lobby and just kind of brave this thing together? We ended up pretty much being inseparable the whole week in various forms of a couple, a throuple and a quadruple. And on that first day, Alyssa and I started batting around these ideas around how do you approach a conference? How do you approach One, when do you get overwhelmed? What do you do about all these different things? And so we have this list of 10 conference networking strategies, in some cases conundrums that we're going to talk about today. Alyssa, welcome to the show. Welcome back.

Thank you so much, Jenny. How fun to be here. And I just want to remember that we were in the lobby of the hotel and instantly got into this conversation of like, how do you handle this? How do you handle this? Oh, I think about it this way. So I'm so excited we're doing this because I just think it's so natural to both of us and also very impactful and useful for people.

And we also have very different approaches. Probably that's what is also so interesting that we're often traveling in similar overlapping circles, but might have different ways that we approach relationship building in general. And pivoters. You'll hear on Free Time, just in the next solo episode that I release, I'm actually going to air some of my TED audio diary of me talking in the mornings. It could be a complete nothing burger of an episode. I'm not really sure, but I find it kind of fascinating to go behind the scenes in the Day of a Life. And the reason that we're recording these two episodes so this one 325 on pivot and one 96 coming out on Free Time, is that it can feel high stakes. I think going into TED for me, this was my second year. I'll be curious to hear from you. It's a big financial investment. Sure. There's a time investment. There's also a lot of high profile people around. And since the pandemic hit, we're doing. At least I've been doing less in person. You've been running all over the world. How many teds had you been to?

This was. I think I want to say it's my fifth ted.

Okay.

Yeah.

So we're at the bar, we're already kind of breaking down. How are we going to do this?

Right.

The very first thing that we started talking about, so strategy number one is approaches. And you said to me that it's a good idea to have a repertoire of openers to help you start a conversation. What's in your repertoire?

Yes. So if you're at a conference in particular, you have to remember that actually you're there to meet people and therefore they're there to meet you. So don't forget that when you have that as a mindset. I think that's even like the pre opener, like you're almost opener to yourself. So if you acknowledge to yourself and let yourself believe they all want to meet you, then the opener can just become as simple as, hi there, my name's Alyssa.

Oh, my goodness.

Crazy. You don't say simple and it works. And you know what they say? They say, hi, and then they say their name. So suddenly you're already in sort of a dialogue and a smile from there. And then something super easy like, what brings you here, where are you from? Actually gets you into a real conversation that is like a very simple approach. If you want to bring in something a little more interesting, you could say, what I like is this idea of like three or five hooks in order to spark serendipity and spark a longer conversation. So you say, hi, my name's Alyssa. I'm from New York. I'm an executive coach. I wrote a book called From Startup to Grownup, and my passion is weight training. How about you? Now, at a networking event, people find that charming. Right now, if you're like at a bar or something, maybe that might not be the right approach. But when you try to put hooks out as soon as you can, people can then say, either, ooh, tell me more about New York, or I've never been to New York or whatever, or they might also. This has happened to me multiple times. They also have a passion for weightlifting. And then you start talking about that and you go down the deep rabbit hole, and I think you immediately have commonality, which is above and beyond small talk.

Something so powerful in there, you said you're opener to yourself, is that they were there to meet you. Because sometimes my imposter monster saddles up to me next to me on the bar and says, no, they're not here trying to meet you. They're here to meet somebody fancier than you. Do you ever have that concern or have you done away with that?

I mean, we could do a whole other episode on the imposter monster. I love the way you framed that. Of course I have that, and I've had it for so long. And I help people get over their own imposter syndrome in my coaching work. So luckily, I also have a repertoire of skills and self talk to help meet myself. And then others overcome that. And when your imposter monster sidles up next to you, you can say things like, oh, yeah, you again. Hi. You try to keep me safe. Thank you.

Hi, I'm Melissa. I'm from New York.

Exactly.

I love weight training.

Exactly. And you can make friends with your imposter monster as you need to. It does remind me of a Buddhist sort of experience of like the ally of the Buddha went up to him and said, oh, Ra is here. Ra is like evil and darkness. Ra is here. Everyone has to run for their lives. And he went and he found Ra in the forest and he said, I see you, Ra. Come have tea. And I love that because all of us really need to see our darkness and our shadow selves and our imposter and self criticism and invite them in for tea. And that's how we can befriend ourselves in order to befriend other people.

I just heard an Irish proverb that said fear knocked on the door, courage answered, or faith answered. There was nobody there. So if we follow your logic about approaches, the person sitting across from you might also have an imposter monster sitting next to them.

Yes.

So in a way, breaking open the conversation can also be a favor to them.

Yes.

And I find, as we did shortly after this moment, we kind of broke open the convo with two other fellows that didn't know each other, but they had sat down at the bar. I try to make my approach just like either super light or entertaining one or the other who doesn't like to smile or laugh or feel some ice broken. And it's funny because I on that pre day one we had not picked up our badges yet, but Ed, on everybody's badge, the bottom of it says ask me about. So there is also an opportunity to build in an approach or as you said, some of those hooks. Mine was let's swap favorite GPT experiments. And that was so fun, like with whoever I met, that was really fun for the right people. Some people could care less, but they could at least ask what I'm trying. Or they could ask you about your weight training.

Yeah, that was so great. And what I noticed about you through the whole week is you always had a repertoire of something interesting, a little comment about someone, something a little fun, something a little light. Just like you said. Do you have a repertoire of things that you do to make sure that you can find the light moment or the amusing moment?

Thank you for that compliment. As I said to you, you told me that my brand is being introverted and that's true. I'm always complaining about people overwhelm. I joked to you in response, like even then that I feel like I'm a squirrel. Throughout the year I'm just collecting interesting thought acorns from books, articles, podcasts because I spend so much time with myself that by the time I Bust out into a conference setting. No, I don't have anything pre planned, but I always have my little interesting acorns. And in the moment that I'm meeting someone, I try to match the most interesting recent acorn to the person. So I go forage through and I say, oh, you're the president of Pushkin Studios. Oh, I love the recent Michael Lewis episode going behind the book about the FTX scandal. Bam. So I'm always trying to.

Yeah, true story, by the way. She did say that.

I did do that.

Yeah. Yeah, I think that's great, Jenny. But I want to ask you a little deeper because not everybody is wired that way. So let's assume that people are interested. They're reading, they're watching, they're looking. And let's assume that in the moment they're feeling maybe intimidated or overwhelmed or they're just not wired the way you are. Can you think about, like, one strategy to help them get organized in the moment to drop in a little nugget like that, a little acorn like that?

That's a great question. And I feel like a lot of it does come from coaching skills, as in listening and being present. Part of it for me is I'm not trying to impress people when I meet them. That doesn't work for me. I like to see if I can make them smile or light them up, just like with interviewing a podcast guest or coaching a client. I like when their eyes sparkle and I can tell when I lose them. And I can tell that if I go toward something that's about me, we'll talk about fangirling a little bit, I lose them. I guess part of it for me is looking for clues about something that will make their eyes light up that they might be able to geek out about. And so it's hard to say exactly how to find the right nugget. But my intention in that moment, if we could go to some underlying framework or system here, the intention is engage them. The previous year at ted, our mutual friend John approached Ashton Kutcher and his wife Mila Kunis. And I joked that I was his barnacle that year because I was just, like, so shy, didn't know anybody, attached myself to his side. But that was a interesting case because I didn't want to just say to them, like, oh, I love you in all these shows and movies. That would surely drain the life out of their conversation. And for some reason, I was just listening. I was kind of quiet. I was on the side. And then they mentioned something. I said, oh, have you read the Courage to Be Disliked? And I'm like, oh, my God, we love that book. We just read that as our book club. It's so good. And we're like, yeah. And it, like, sparked this whole explosion of conversation. But I had to be quiet enough, observant enough, and present enough and present to know what that would be, rather than jumping straight to fangirling. Now, I also was kind of trying to listen for what when their energy and body language seemed to perk up. I wish I would have asked about, like, jiu jitsu that my husband is so into. If you go straight to the work context, I think sometimes you could lose people. They themselves get bored. I've seen people just think to themselves, like, I myself am bored about talking about what I do. You also talked about just one last thing on approaches that might lead us to our second strategy, the art of the sincere compliment. Yeah, how's that a helpful opener?

Well, back to the whole point about imposter syndrome. I can guarantee you, having done a lot of research on this, that not 95% of high achievers experience imposter syndrome. So we're at the TED conference, and trust me, they're experiencing imposter syndrome for sure. So when someone comes in and makes you feel comfortable and safe and welcome, you might think, who am I to make someone safe and welcome? But actually, you're kind of someone who can make someone else feel safe and welcome. So the idea is that when you can find something that genuinely would say is a positive, whether it's, boy, you handle that conversation so well, or I love your earrings, or anything that is genuine and that you might even be thinking, but you might feel uncomfortable saying, say it and watch that other person light up. And then also there might be a story about their conversational skill or their.

Earrings or whatever it is, I love that. And that's so true for women and men, even the men. It's like, I love your glasses. Oh, yeah, I love the whatever. But it's true. It has to be genuine. I've also had approaches where I literally will just ask a logistical question. Like our new friend Eric, patient zero of our conference strategy approaches.

That's right.

And I just said, oh, it looks like you picked up your badge. So they're open already. And he says, yes, but now it's open. Right now there's a moment. Speaking of the sincere compliment strategy, number two, this is one that I've thought about increasingly is talk piece clothing. Now, the term peacocking was popularized by the much maligned pickup artist community, or PUA for short, that those guys were always teaching each other. You got a peacock, you got to wear something kind of outrageous. Here's how I think about it. I'm not going to win on being the fanciest person, nor do I want to be. I like to be comfortable. I'm always wearing jumpers. I'm wearing comfortable shoes. I'm not going to look that fancy, and I don't care.

Yeah.

However, I learned at year one, I wore these wild, like, moon shoes that Michael picked out for me. They're called the Nike Joyrides. They truly look like outer space. Wacky shoes. Crazy colors, crazy design. Everybody talked to me about them. Everybody talked to me. I love your shoes. Where did you get those? What are those called? Can I take a picture? And they're Nikes. They're tennis shoes. You're walking a lot at a conference.

Yeah.

But they got people talking. And so from that moment, I always tried to wear something interesting. Even I have little free time pins that say book nerd or the flying heart. I brought 50 pins to give away. But wearing something, anything that would open a door to allow someone else to give a sincere compliment, I found that was very helpful.

Yeah, I think that's great. And the point is to wear something that's distinctive or have something distinctive that you're carrying to your point. To be open, to be approachable, for. For people to say something about it. I actually have a pair of earrings that I wear a lot. I'm not wearing them today, but I wear a lot. There's my signature earrings. And the reason why my signature earrings is because people compliment them all the time. They're these long, dangly gold earrings.

Oh, yeah. You're also wearing a gold necklace that's a shell shaped. Yeah.

This. Awesome.

It's big.

It gets a lot of compliments, honestly.

Yeah, because it stands out. People want to weigh in. They feel as awkward as we do.

Exactly.

We'll be right back just after this. This episode is brought to you by indeed. Stop waiting around for the perfect candidate. Instead, use Indeed sponsored Jobs to find the right people with the right skills fast. It's a simple way to make sure your listing is the first candidate. C. According to Indeed data, sponsored jobs have four times more applicants than non sponsored jobs. So go build your dream team today with Indeed. Get a $75 sponsored job credit at Indeed.com podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Hablas espanol Spries du dzoich. Com de nosq if you used babbel you would. Babbel's conversation based techniques teaches you useful words and phrases to get you speaking quickly about the things you actually talk about in the real world. With lessons handcrafted by over 200 language experts and voiced by real native speakers, Babbel is like having a private tutor in your pocket. Start speaking with Babbel today. Get up to 55% off your Babbel subscription right now at Babbel.com Spotify spelled B A B-B-E-L.com Spotify rules and restrictions may apply. Number three. We talked at the bar before we ever got into the conference about chatting as a peer versus what I call the inevitable fangirling that sometimes you cannot even resist. Maybe the kids these days call it stanning, that maybe the goal is to approach people as a peer that our friend mutual bestie Dorie Clark suggested. So tell us more about that. And then of course, I'm gonna take us back to sometimes you can't help but fangirl.

So here you are at a conference, and we're at both at the TED conference. And you have to be a certain kind of person to get yourself. You have to be accepted to the TED conference. You have to be a certain kind of person to get yourself to the conference. You've invested time and money and energy into the conference. So, like, I think it's really important to put yourself on a peer level and not feel somehow less than other people. That's probably true in all of life, in real life. And I just think it's a very helpful frame of mind for you, for me, for you, for everybody. Once you're doing that, I think the notion of fangirling gets in the way. Actually, what you're saying about Ashton Kutcher, you become kind of overwhelmed with their celebrity dom or their something, whatever it is you admire about them. And then you can't have a normal conversation. I'll recall that when I fangirled Daveed Diggs from the original cast of Hamilton, he played Thomas Jefferson. I was desperately in love with him. Who wasn't? He was incredible. I actually met him. I went into this behind the scenes thing with Hamilton. I was such a fan. And there he was on stage. And I said, daveed, can I beg you to take a selfie with me? He said, you don't have to beg. Grab my phone and take a selfie. Hand my phone back to me and looks at me and I go, ha ha. And I was mushed. I had nothing. And there was so many interesting things to Ask him about because of this behind the scenes thing. But I. I'm not criticizing myself, but sort of the reaction of someone that you are fangirling, it's just not ideal from an intellectual level, from the context of building a relationship with someone. And I think for you, it's not the best stance. So I think mindset matters. When you go up to someone and you see someone, it's really helpful to get your mindset right and to kind of think actually just what you were saying before. Like, how am I going to approach them in a way which is sort of orthogonal and not about, oh, I love your work. Oh, I love your voice, or, you know, whatever. It's a good practice for you to get in. And I think that best options and outcomes come from the work you do in meeting someone as a peer.

And here we go again with the mindset piece. First and foremost, I'll come back to a story. It's very true that the fangirling, sometimes you can't help it. It's true that it blocks the relationship, actually. Do you pretend when you're approaching someone as a peer and let's say you already know who they are, you're aware of their work, do you let on that you know who they are or not?

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. I have the great good fortune of being face blind, so that helps me with celebrities. And I was going to talk to Rick Doblin, who I actually think is a legit celebrity. He's the founder of maps. He's been marching forward on psychedelic research and getting it legalized for 40 years to help people with trauma and issues. And there he was at ted. This is right before the pandemic. There he was at ted. And I sidled up next to him and I started entering the conversation and talking to him. Standing next to me was Sergey Brin. It turned out I had no idea, Right. Someone had to tell me later, what's Sergey Brin? I was like, which one was Sergey Brin? I had no idea. So that was really helpful because we were just like yucking it up on his mom and doing this work in psychedelics and whatnot. So I guess I find that helpful. I guess I would say we talked about this also. You can acknowledge in a sincere and comfortable and secure way that you admire and appreciate someone. I sent you that video as a follow up of Lizzo at the Grammy Awards, saying she was thanking the crowd and she was gushing and gushing and it was so beautiful to see how happy she was winning this Grammy Award. And then she said, and then, Beyonce, Beyonce, I can't see. Where are you? And oh, Beyonce in the fourth grade. I skipped school and I saw you and she was fangirling in like a really appropriate way from the stage of winning a Grammy. And I think if we can all picture ourselves on a stage winning the Grammy, we can then all go thank our goddesses.

Wow. So beautifully said.

Thank you.

I fangirled, I mean, so many times, but last year I saw Andrew Wilkinson, who is not a mainstream celebrity, but in the world of running delightfully tiny companies that scale, he's now an investor in those types of companies. I had just been on a 20 episode listening binge finding him on any podcast that I could. And I go to breakfast at the Fairmont. It's 7:30am, he's sitting there by himself having breakfast. And at that moment I had a choice because I could either walk by and pretend I didn't see him. There wasn't necessarily an opening as a peer because I was going to be interrupting him. It's like I saw myself doing it and I couldn't help it. I'm like, are you Andrew by chance? He said yes. And I go, oh my goodness, you know what? I kind of lose it.

You gushed.

I gushed. And I'm like, oh, I'm an author and podcaster as well. But I've heard you on so many shows. I love your work. I love the way you think about business. I had reached out to his company, Tiny Capital, or just Tiny officially, but the website is Tiny Capital. So I did try to insert the connections and the interactions at the end of it though, no relationship was formed. And I do think that had I bumped into him somewhere else in the conference in a different context, maybe I could have gotten to know him. But instead it became this smile and nod on his part. Hopefully it made his day. Sometimes that's all I care about as the fan. Girly or girl, I just think, you know what, if I can make his day, that's okay. I don't need to be his friend necessarily.

Yeah.

But I know that if I were in his shoes, all of a sudden, your energy, it's not necessarily defensive per se, but you're kind of in this energy of thank you so much. It doesn't necessarily position you for a peer to peer friendship. And I even wonder with Lizzo and Beyonce. I wonder if Lizzo is still in a way putting herself as mentee under the Beyonce umbrella or Apprenticee.

Yeah.

Rather than straight up here.

Yeah, yeah. It's a good point. It's a good point. And at the same time, there's nothing wrong with having your heroes and thanking your heroes and acknowledging that they're your heroes. I think that done that in an appropriate way, in a way which also recognizes your own kind of contribution or your own self worth, let's say. Or worth. It's an interesting fine line and you don't always have to do it that way. One thing I would say is with Andrew, it's interesting. Like you had just gone on a 20 episode listening binge to Andrew. I'm just going to suggest, and I think this is just learning for all of us, right? If you had sort of stopped yourself before you did. And by the way, I've also, as I mentioned before with Dovey Diggs and many others, I've uncontrollably like, right? And then it's like, okay, well that didn't go very well or fine or who knows, right? But if you had sort of stopped yourself and said, huh, I wonder what is a little nugget I can throw into this discussion? And he would be a really powerful thing. And I'm not saying this is an advanced move, people, but you could have said, Andrew, Jenny Blake, may I join you? And sat yourself down. Jenny's face. You could have. I also have a lot of interest in and really done a deep dive on tiny teams. And I'm really very interested in the work that you're doing with that. You're doing it more maybe from a venture point of view. I'm doing it more from a sort of almost like solopreneurish point of view. And I think there's a lot to unpack here. You know, if you had done that and then ordered eggs, I love that.

What would stop me from doing that is that I know how much I cherish my reading time at breakfast. I would not want someone to do that to me. So that would hold me back from. May I sit down?

I can understand.

May I join you?

May I join you? And by the way, you ask and you're sitting at the same time.

Yes.

And you don't have to do that. It could even be Andrew Wilkinson. Jenny Blake, we have a lot of common interests. In fact, I think your people are going to arrange for me for you to be my podcast. Let's find a way to catch up later. I want to maybe talk to you a little bit more or something. So I don't. Who knows, right? And by the way, there's something that you. And again, when I Fangirl. It's funny, I was thinking a lot about this when I met Jon Kabat Zinn, who's a very well known meditation teacher and kind of the inventor of mindfulness based stress relief, MBSR. And I went on a retreat with him. He's 80, he's in his 80s, in January. And I was kind of fangirling, and then I decided, alyssa, do not be like this and be on the lookout. And just like what you were saying, be present to the moments that I can find my connection to him. And I said really openly, I read your book when I was like a teenager in my bedroom, and it was so meaningful to me. And when we talked a little bit more about that, I shared with him really authentically and shared with him what I was getting out of this retreat. And I was both acknowledging him and also being really genuine and in the moment. And it was very relational until I asked for a selfie.

Forget about it. Yeah, I know. And then what's interesting, too, is playing the long game to give Dory another product placement of these relationships. Because I fangirled on Krista Tippett in year one, little did I know there would be group settings where I wouldn't have found a fangirl in year two.

Exactly.

But I fangirled at the end of year one. And although it can be okay in the moment, again, I think it becomes a barrier to overcome later. And it almost needs to be corrected later because you're right, I could have met her in a completely different context if I were patient.

Yes.

And then the next time said, by the way, I love your show, but it's more of an aside. It's not the entire context of the quick conversation.

So very true. And it's funny because Krista Tippett is someone who I was one of the first people in my life. I was really conscious of, like, okay, let's see how I can approach this without being like, you're Krista Tippett. And I approached her at Renaissance Weekend and her daughter was there. That's another strategy. I'm not sure we're going to talk about this, but you talk to the other person and not to her. And also when you have a parent there with a child, the parent loves when you interact with the child. And I have done that multiple times. And it becomes a very safe and an easier way to be a different kind of person with. To have a different kind of relationship with the parent kind of out of the gate. And when I saw Krista, I was like, oh, hey, how's your daughter? Which I'm sure she doesn't get very often. And as you recall, part of the reason we were kind of in her group is because of my friend Debbie Millman, who, when I met Debbie, I didn't quite know that she was such a big deal. So, you know, who knows? Letting people's status and kind of public Persona get in the way does get in the way.

That's it. And Paulina Porzkova describes it as that fame has a bubble, like a one of those bubbles you blow where there's a sheen around the person where you're looking in and actually only seeing a skewed reflection of yourself.

So true.

Or who you want them to be. And meanwhile, there, the famous person or the status person is in the bubble, not truly being seen, because they're only being seen for their Persona. So it is a gift to not ignore it, but just go around, treat.

Them as a human being.

Treat them as a human being. Like, that's why I don't ask for selfies. I'm actually really never. Doesn't matter. If I see them walking on the streets in New York, I try not to even stop people. If I see a celebrity in the wild, I try not to stop them at all. I just kind of enjoy, oh, hey, there's that person. And I feel like I'm in the show with them because now we're crossing paths in New York City. But in person, I'm actually very deliberate about not asking for selfies, unless in the case I went skating. Roller skating was one of the breakout activities. After an hour of roller skating, Amy Cuddy was there. She loves it. It's her passion. I was chatting with another wonderful woman, Stacey, who I'd met the year prior. The three of us took a selfie, but normally I try to avoid it because I feel that it conveys that I want a record of having a relationship.

Totally. But by the time you did that with Amy Cuddy, it was just like you, me and Gina taking a selfie. Right. You already had a relationship. By the way, on the topic of Amy Cuddy, who I'll just say, in case people don't know, is kind of a world famous thought leader in the world of body language. She's famous for power poses. She's kind of a big deal. And she was standing there at Ted with these like, golden, silver, sparkly roller skates over her shoulder. And I made the choice to go up to her and say, I see you like roller skating as opposed to you're Amy Cuddy and we had a 20 minute chat about roller skating where I don't roller skate. But she told me all about why she feels safer on skates and a whole thing and how she feels. Feels better, you know. She told me all about the skates and I kept asking her and at the end I said, oh, my name's Alyssa. She said, yeah, my name's Amy, you know. Cause we had name tags on anyway. And it was like nothing about her big dealishness. It was more satisfying.

Oh, I'm an author too. How did you get a tuktuk? Oh, you know, all of a sudden asking for favors or something. Fun fact. She packs her roller skates in her carry on luggage.

Incredible.

Anywhere she travels, that's, that's truly a passion.

That's a passion.

Yeah.

Impressive.

Let's go to strategy number four. Sit, AKA park yourself in central locations such as a lobby to catch passersby. This was very interesting because as a result of the free time podcast, I had interviewed Gina Bianchini, founder of Mighty Networks, and we happened to run into her on the morning of day one. I said Gina. I didn't know her beyond that at all. We had only met for half an hour virtually. Cause it was even a quick recording day. And this is why I love podcasting because you just never know what it can become. That day one, I said Gina. And we had never met in person. She came over and said hi. We were inseparable, the three of us after that. So we had a conference throuple that Jane, our friend Jane. Also at some points it was a quintuple by the time she was in the mix. Quadruple. Yes. But the thing that was so interesting in those early days with the throuple between Yumi and Gina.

Yeah.

Is that when we would sit in a central place, it really expanded our reach because we all knew different people.

Yes.

There were so many people that you both flagged down separately that I would have never spoken to. So I guess just to say the power of parking yourself in a central place.

Yeah. There's a corollary to that. There's two ways to think about that. One is to park yourself in a central place and one is to stroll aimlessly because the TED Convention center is really well designed in a donut. I think you called it a donut. You could walk slowly with nowhere to go around the donut and then you see a whole bunch of people also doing their tour around the donut or just going somewhere who you can see. I Saw Ian Bremmer, who I know a little bit that way. I saw Adam Grant a couple of times that way, who I said hi to. I ran into a lot of people that way. And then when you park yourself, you can be seen. And there's something about, like, the stability of being stationary.

That's true. Right. I had so much fun. There was like, snack bins. So snack bins are also. This is like, anywhere that there's some other thing happening that can provide an opening.

Totally.

So three people who we do not know each other, we converge on these candy bins and one guy goes, getting some for my kids. They love candy. And me and the other guy, Damon, look at each other. We haven't met yet. Okay. But we look at each other and we go, yeah, this is for the kids. And we wink and we load up on all this candy. And the rest of the conference, Damon and I, this guy, we're like, how are the kids? Do the kids need more candy? You know, or like the third cup of coffee? Like, it's for the kids. The kids love coffee. So just like, having a laugh.

That's funny.

At those congregation points.

This is also what you said earlier, finding that other thing to talk about. So Amy Cuddy's got roller skates. Everybody's in front of the candy bin. I mean, you know, we are not alone in front of the candy bin. And you something. Oh, you can always bond over chocolate. And then also the other activities. So the DEXA scan.

Right.

The other things. I don't go to other things to go to other things. I go to other things in order to have a likelihood of meeting people, which is why I don't go to the talks. Like, why would I waste my time going to the talks?

Yeah. Alyssa goes to TED to not attend any TED Talks.

Yeah, I could see the talks on.

I'll see em later.

I can see em on the video. Why do I need to see the TED Talks? But the point is, you do wanna go to the activities where you have a likelihood to be able to strike up a conversation. I think it's also important if you're going to a conference or an event to have a goal and decide what you're gonna optimize for. Some people wanna optimize to, like, go see the TED Talks and learn something. God bless. That' going to optimize my chance of meeting interesting people, period.

Very powerful. And, you know, your priority. That is your priority. You were so clear on it. If I ever have a goal, it's just to maximize Serendipity. And I started to see that you're right. When I'm inside, I feel a little more stuck. Although in the past, I've met very interesting people who I sit next to in the room. So every now and then I would go into the sessions. I also wanted to maximize interactivity. If there was going to be, like, really fancy AI augmented reality displays, I like to experience it in the room. I want to talk about strategy number five, because on the subject of finding things to talk about, exposure, one of my strategies is that I would message people right after I met them and I tried to message them. I make a lot of use of emoji, the hieroglyphics of our time, that I would say, nice to meet you. I put the little waving emoji with the brown hair so that there was some cue as to who I am. But I always tried to make a note or a joke about something that we talked about. So with Amy Cuddy, I would just say, great skating with you today. And like a bunch of stars and roller skates and I make a whole emojiscape. Or with Damon, with the candy, I'd say, like, hope your kids enjoy the candy and a green apple emoji, because we were eating sour green apples. And with my use of emoji and the private direct message right after meeting somebody, I just wanted to, like, kind of reinforce because it's so easy to forget who you meet. And it was helpful for me. Even a year later, I saw people I had messaged the previous year with a little inside joke. It's not just nice to meet you.

Totally.

Or if I didn't have a joke, I would try to send an interesting acorn back to that point. I would say, by the way, here's an article related to the book you're working on, you might find interesting.

I think that's brilliant. You said you did that, and I thought, well, that's a good idea. Remind me of the name of the.

Founder of Pushkin, Jacob, co founder with Malcolm Gladwell.

Yes, I did that with him. I sent him an app message with that kind of thing, like, can't wait to check out the podcast or whatever. And I also, you know, I gave him my book. I was like, here, I'm sure you're gonna hold my book. You're a startup founder. And so he wrote back to me very kindly, I look forward to reading your book. Right. So that was very nice. But, Jenny, I also think this is where actually selfies are very helpful. And so this is where you meet someone as a peer. You can take a selfie with somebody and then say, I'm going to text it to you. And then you get their text. And that's above and beyond the conference app. That's like a real world text. Right. And now you've got a way to contact them with your inside joke or whatever, or the article you want to send three months later or six months later. And that's, I think, very helpful. So you can either say, let's take a selfie, I'll send it to you, or you can say, oh great, let me send it to you, let's take a selfie so you remember who I am, or something like that. And that is a very easy, fruitful way to get contact information and to sort of strike up a conversation that then can last past the conference.

You read my mind. Because strategy number six is one that you gave. Okay, texting a wish you were here selfie to mutual friends as a way to keep in loose touch. That's kind of the long term networking because maybe you're texting a third party who is not there. Now you're trying not to induce fomo. No, that's my codependency of that person. I know, but that was very interesting that you will often text a selfie to a friend or a loose connection if it's a mutual friend. Tell me a little more about that.

I do think that I'm a relational person. And so I genuinely am thinking about, for example, our mutual friend John, our friend Nick. And I'm thinking about them there because we have a lot of mutual friends there. Or it's kind of fun. The serendipity. Serendipity of TED and other conferences. I mean, I've been to Davos. The serendipity there is insane other places. Web summit. And so it's like, oh my God, the last time I met you was three years ago with Nick Sonnenberg. Let's take a selfie for him. Like it makes complete sense. Or even Jenny, as soon as we got to the podcast studio, I didn't even say hi to you. I'm like, let's take a selfie for Jane and Gina and send it on our group texts for Jane and Gina. Because it's again, a way of just staying connected with our beautiful experience of being together there at TED and experiencing it together. By the way, I've seen each one you one on one, Gina one on one and Jane one on one since Ted in each time I sent a selfie with that person to the whole group.

That's brilliant. You're so good at that. That's definitely not my zone of genius.

Yeah.

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New arrivals first, Unlock exclusive discounts and more. Great brands, great prices. That's why you rack. Let's talk about some of the trickier sides of conferencing and networking strategy. 7 How to deal with feelings. We wrote down big feelings. Yes. The inevitable ups and downs of your mood in large groups. And I have to say, I noticed I had. What do they call it? Your surge capacity is depleted? Is this article that went viral when the pandemic hit, my people capacity diminished so rapidly toward the end of the week. You even left early. You didn't attend the Friday activities. And for me, I was so kind of like people tired and overwhelmed by that point. I didn't do very much anyway. But tell me, what are some of the big feelings that arise for you, especially at the beginning of something like this, when you're not in the flow yet?

I don't have the feelings in the beginning as much as I have them in the middle and in the end. Right. So my beginning feelings, typically, I feel super charged. I'm an extrovert. So I love meeting new people. I have enough experience at ted, at Davos, at places like that that I know I'm gonna know a lot of people. I'm excited about it. I might feel a little stressed, like, oh, I don't have time for this. That is a thing I might feel. And then it's only in the middle where I'm getting overwhelmed. And also I have a lot of issues. Again, I'm a relational person. So when I keep having quick hits with people, I kept seeing my friend Tim, met him at ted, but he's a genuine friend now. I kept seeing him at the gym, in my hotel, every morning. And every morning be like, we have to find time to catch up Today's our day. And literally that was true. We said, today's our day or we're gonna get together. From the day before we both got into Vancouver to the day that we left and we never had time to talk. And I still feel bad about that. I just feel like somehow. And then this, you know, of course, why shouldn't he feel bad, right? Like somehow I didn't make it happen, or somehow I feel like I came across as insincere. And I do not mean to be insincere. I also am a kind of person who wants to do what I say I will do. So I'm not the kind of person, like, let's have lunch. I'm actually the kind of person who always follows up on the let's have lunch thing. To everyone else's surprise, I just feel I'm acting out of character when there are so many quick hits with people where you can't have a deep conversation. And I'm made for deep conversations. That is what drains me and the reason I left early. You say early. I just know how I am. And I just know that, like, it's better for me to leave on Friday morning. I'm going to be done. But when I was at Davos last year or this past year in January, what I always tell people, and this is really true, Davos ended on Friday, but unfortunately, I ended on Thursday. So the last 24 hours were kind of torture, whereas the first 24 hours were kind of heaven. I texted our mutual friend Dori Clark, and I was like, davos is heaven. And I was not feeling that way on Thursday. So you have to also know yourself.

Yeah, I talked about that in the Free time episode. Going live in a week of just. I totally faded out toward the end. But not just that. I realized it was because there were two very big all group, all hands events. There was like the end of conference, mega party, and then a mega picnic the next day. And in both, I fell flat on my face. Yeah, like, made two laps alone. Felt like the kid at a cafeteria with her tray, not knowing who to talk to, got completely overwhelmed. The music was so loud, I didn't want to talk about it. And I just went home feeling kind of defeated and alone. Yeah, both of those instances. And I realized I thrive at morning coffee. That's when I thrive. I am at my peak delightfulness and patience for trying to break into a conversation. Whereas toward the end of the day, I was not even going to many dinners because I just couldn't take it anymore.

Yeah.

What about the FOMO that will inevitably arise during a week like this? There's so much FOMO of, like, even when I was going to bed early, I knew it was what I needed, but there was this little voice saying, well, it's only one week. Shouldn't you suck it up? Shouldn't you be out there? Well, who are you missing? Who are you going to miss meeting? How do you deal with the FOMO or even not getting an invite?

As you know, that was a very challenging thing for me. I am, unfortunately, uniquely susceptible to fomo. I think, more than other people, I do feel that way, which is kind of torture for me. So that's really hard for me. I have to give myself a big pep talk, like, oh, it's okay, Alyssa. It's okay. And when you got invited to this dinner that I did not get invited to, I was, like, completely beside myself. Like, I was so upset about that, which is funny.

Not funny that you got upset, but funny that I never get invited to anything. I'm like, I have the fewest invites coming into these things. So it's ironic. Like, the only one invite that I had.

But, you know, God bless, right? And I was happy for you, but I just felt like the whole notion of, like, feeling left out, and for me, it's very difficult. It's like, oh, one of my difficult inner voices is like, that I'm scratching at the window, telling them to let me in. You know, let me in. And that's a terrible vision for myself. And that just gets exacerbated when there's some dinner going on. There's something going on. So that is very challenging for me, and I have to really talk myself down. What's helpful for me always is to go back to what works for me, which is being relational, finding someone else, making someone's day, being of service to someone, introducing other people. Those kinds of things make me feel like, oh, look at me. I'm a connector. I'm on the inside. And also, I'm doing things for other people, which I find very helpful. But it's funny you talk about that party. That party is terrible. Last year, at that party, I texted Dory Clark, our friend Dory Clark, and I was like, dory, where are you? Yeah, I was like, dory, where are you? I hate this party. And she wrote, oh, sorry, I'm not there. I'm at this dinner. She said, sonia, I can't invite you nicely. Like, I'd invite you if I could. And I wrote back, no problem. Next year I'm gonna plan my own dinner. Because I was like, that party is terrible. The music is too loud. The food is terrible. It's, like, the worst place to meet people. It's exhausting. So I made sure I got invited to a dinner this year, by the way. I got invited to a lot of dinners this year. I got invited to a number of.

Parties, one of which only involved a chicken skewer, like, four hours a day.

Oh, dear God.

It was a very fancy party dinner party, but there was no sit down. These are champagne problems.

Let's just. And we don't mean to complain, as Gina said, she had wine for dinner that night.

Right.

And I had club soda for dinner that night. That is true. And so just. That's the whole point, is that I got invited to a bunch of stuff. And to be honest with you, what was the funnest dinner? The funnest dinner was with you, me and Gina, and we went out into Vancouver. And I don't want to, like, dismiss that in the sense that, actually, it's really good to get invited to the party or the dinner or whatever, just rhythmically speaking. I'm also better in the morning. By the nighttime, I'm kind of used up, and it can just be hard to socialize. So even you get invited to the fancy dinner or whatever. Most people don't do a great job setting up an event for success. So it's too loud. There's no intimacy. You don't know who anyone is. That's challenging.

And you might max out your conversation at your dinner table with the people who can hear you and vice versa. Exactly. And then you're sitting there for four hours. That's what I get, really restless, by the way.

That's happened to me many times. You're sitting next to this person, you're like, oh, my God, where we're gonna go from there and what I do just for my own sanity. But actually, it's worked out. I double down on finding the interesting jewel in that person. I double down on, like, we're gonna have real talk right now. We're going deep and intimate.

Yeah. My take on fomo, I try to maintain this mantra that if I'm meant to be there, I will be, and if I'm not meant to be there, something else cool must be meant to happen. Even if it's getting a good night's sleep, because you never know. The next morning, I might be getting my coffee, and there's Zach Braff singing a tune, and it's like, you just Never know the next thing that could unfold. This goes with strategies eight and nine. Cause we're almost out of time. Strategy eight, how to recharge. And then strategy nine, when to call it. And in both, I'm hearing us say a permission around knowing yourself and just taking the view that, yes, there might be feelings of FOMO in the moment, but also recharging at these things. And it's a marathon, not a sprint in some ways, but it's also a sprint in other ways. It's okay to call it if you're getting fatigued. I call it falling off a cliff. I start to get angry and impatient when talking to people. And that's why I'm like, oh, I better go put myself to bed.

Totally. I start feeling kind of down and not in a good place. And knowing yourself is really important there and accepting yourself for who you are. Gretchen Rubin has these what rules for being an adult. And one is like, let Gretchen be Gretchen. And I will sometimes say to myself, let Gretchen be Gretchen. Now I'm not Gretchen, but nonetheless, I'm letting Gretchen be Gretchen. And that means I'm going home.

Yes. Because also, you're not doing anybody any favors, least of all yourself, if you're trying to force it when you're tired.

Totally.

And no magical sparks are gonna happen. That's so true.

And there's always another bus. You have to recognize you can't go to everything. There's always another bus. And so you have to give yourself permission to. To go recharge. For example, for me, leaving on Friday and not waiting until Saturday or Friday night. By knowing yourself, you can embed ways to recharge.

Our final strategy number 10, following up with conference connections after you return home. Yeah, this is all you. Because I don't do it very well. There might be a few people that I know I want to invite onto the podcasts. That's a big benefit of going is meeting potential podcast guests and vice versa. There might be a few that I authentically am in connection with, but I don't have good strategies for following up. I get overwhelmed, actually. I've met so many great people, and you know me, my brand. I'm usually people tired in general, let alone like, how to create some strategy. So what do you do to follow up with budding connections after an event?

I write myself notes. As in, I remind myself that this is important to me. By the way, I send that note also to my va, so she reminds me. I get contact information. I send it to my va so she can keep a list. I have a Google Doc, it's called Dinners in New York, but really it's Dinners in New York, San Francisco, Louisiana and Miami. And if someone lives in those places, I write them down because I don't have a great contact database. I just write them on the sheet and then when I start thinking about going to that place or something comes up in my mind, I kind of have them right there. But I just make an effort. Like I run out of steam too. But I don't run out of steam until like let's say four or five days go by and I've written to 10 or 20 people and then I might run out of steam. But guess what? That was a good outing. So I'm really proud of myself for doing that. And I really make an effort to, if someone's in New York, to figure out how to meet them again. As you know, I'm trying to get you to plan a TED New York reunion with me after Davos. I planned a Davos New York reunion, you know, and I also, also, because I invited some folks to that I got invited to their Davos New York reunion. So I just think it's like about being in the flow.

I don't have that many dinner slots open on my dance card, so to speak, because I get overwhelmed. I don't have that much one on one capacity available to even want to have so many dinners in any given city.

Yeah, but think of it as a six person dinner, an eight person dinner.

Yeah, that's what I was gonna ask you. Are you trying to meet these people one on one or are you organizing group?

So what I typically do is I organize group dinners or events or something and I like that. And it's a nice loose touch and it's a good experience. And the asterisk is just like I said before about like feeling this unsatisfaction of like not having real time with Tim or not having real time with, you know, whoever else I saw there. I did this dinner in LA like a few months ago with Eric. Eric, my beau and I did that and, and it was really frustrating. It was a slightly loud restaurant, but actually it was not as bad as other places. There were 12 of us. It's a very big group. It was a very large table. I think everyone really enjoyed meeting each other. I knew everybody at the table. I wanted to have quality time with everybody at the table. I got quality time with nobody at the table. And I actually felt very frustrated at the end of that dinner. So I think It's a good strategy overall, but it's not always the most satisfying thing. My favorite is, like, six people where I can facilitate a table conversation, and we. We all feel like best friends at the end. Yeah.

You're so good at that.

Yeah.

You and Dory both.

I love that.

Is there anything we missed? We have all these strategies, the emotional ups and downs. Is there anything we miss that you would advise someone, having been on a broad circuit yourself the last few years of putting yourself out there?

Yeah. Two things I want to emphasize. First of all, get out of your comfort zone and go to things that you wouldn't necessarily go to and that are uncomfortable for you because that's where all the magic is and that's where all the gold is on the outside of your comfort zone. The second is it comes back to mindset. Have a mindset in your mind's eye. I'm not here to be my usual self. I'm here actually to create a different Persona for this few days or this week. And you can do that in your mind's eye. It's not being inauthentic. It's trying on a different self and get your mindset right about how to approach people and let amazing things happen to you by virtue of that.

I love that. I just finished today an interview with Todd Herman for free time. He wrote the Alter Ego Effect that says you can have different alter egos for different things. You can have the career alter ego, the conference alter ego, the home front alter ego. So he would double click on that. Yes, I love it. And then I would just add, less is more. Sometimes it's okay not to have an agenda heading into a conference. I have to remind myself that here's a shift that I'm still trying to make. Not heading in. What can I get? As in who can I meet? Who will benefit me and my career and my book and my podcast and me, me, me. That energy is ultimately. It is not magnetic, and yet it shows up. Especially if I'm plunking down a big chunk of change to attend something, I'm kind of primed to think, what is the ROI going to be? So I have to actively remind myself it's okay. Sometimes less is more. Less connections that I make, but deeper ones could go much farther than solely focusing on quantity in any sense. The word even. How many talks did I attend? You know, how many people did I meet? How many parties did I go to? I have to give myself permission, less is more, and try to drop any agenda of what I can Get. And I think the thing that I've learned, having this feeling that I always feel like I'm sneaking in the side door at these things. Sometimes people just say, I love your energy. I get that compliment a lot where I realize that sometimes my gift isn't how fancy I am or how much status I have. It's just an energetic, positive conversation or interaction and that that's just as valuable sometimes at these things than how important you are on paper.

So well said. Absolutely.

Thank you. Well, this was so fun.

So fun.

So fun. Listeners, I hope you got something out of this. I would love to know what's one takeaway you're going to try? What's one piece of homework? I always actually do leave Pivoters with one tiny experiment they can do in the next week. So what would you say?

I would say in the next week, go and meet one new person one way or the other, strike up a conversation with somebody that you would not normally strike up a conversation with and see what happens.

I love it. And my one tiny next step, as I said in the little free time daily diary, put yourself in the path of people. So even if you're not going to sign up for a conference right now, is there an event, a book reading? Can you go sit on a bench in the park? I often I will look at what books people carry onto the subway and I'll look them up on Amazon and sometimes buy those books because I figure that book crossed my path, I must be meant to read it. So I try to do that when I can just park myself in public somewhere.

I love it.

Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Eliza. This is so fun. Thanks for traipsing around the donut with me.

Loved it.

Me too. Thank you for listening everybody. And hey, even if you're not listening on Spotify, they've opened it up for comments now so you could pop over there and say your one big insight from this conversation. I would love to hear. Thank you. Thank you, Alyssa. Thank you Pivoters. I hope you all have a beautiful rest of your day. Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Pivot podcast. Make sure you don't miss an episode or my insider tips and templates by signing up for Pivot Lists, a curated twice monthly newsletter where I share the inside scoop on what I'm reading, watching, listening to and the latest tools I'm geeking out on. Sign up@pivotmethod.com pivotlist get show notes from this episode@pivotmethod.com podcast and connect with me on Twitter Ennyblake. Remember, build first, then your courage will follow. Hasn't it always? Starting a business can seem like a daunting task unless you have a partner like Shopify. They have the tools you need to start and grow your business. From designing a website to marketing to selling and beyond, Shopify can help with everything you need. There's a reason millions of companies like Mattel, Heinz and Allbirds continue to trust and use them. With Shopify on your side, turn your big business idea into Sign up for your $1 per month trial@shopify.com special offer.