#49, Joe Thomas, Co-Founder and CEO of Loom — Why it’s essential to track your time; how to get better at fundraising; getting your head right to make good decisions; and how to decide to keep building your company, even if it means sleeping on a mattress

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Startup to Grown up the Podcast My name is Alyssa Cohn. I'm an executive coach, an angel investor, and the author of From Startup to Grownup. Each week I talk to founders, creators, advisors, investors and builders of all kinds about their insights and experiences in going from startup to grownup.

Welcome back to From Startup to Grown Up.

And today I'm so excited to have.

Joe Thomas from the co founder and CEO of Loom, on the podcast. Loom is an async communication tool. You record a video and while you're recording, you can also show what you're doing on your desktop. Then you can send it to someone or to a group and they can all watch it whenever it's convenient for them. And they can speed it up or slow it down or watch it again. Joe and I had a fantastic conversation. We covered the early days of Loom, what Joe called the grind, when they pivoted three times in nine months.

We talked about the agreement the three.

Co founders made to get Joe to move to LA and sleep on a twin mattress on the floor in his co founder's home, mind you. And how Joe learned to fundraise, which did not come naturally to him. We talked about the counterintuitive way Joe prioritizes his time to make sure he's working on the right things. And we also talked about why Joe.

Thought it was so important to codify.

Their values when they were only a team of seven people, and how those values have helped them run the company and even during difficult times. And we covered the tools that Joe uses to make sure he's in a good place so he can make good decisions. This is such a great conversation with a really outstanding founder and leader. So please enjoy this great conversation with Joe Thomas, co founder and CEO of Loom.

Joe, welcome to the show. I'm so excited to have you here today.

Thank you so much for having me, Alyssa. It feels like a long time coming.

Yeah, that's for sure. I feel. I totally agree. So tell us about Loom. Let's start with Loom. What was the founding insight?

So the goal for Loom? We actually were three founders that showed up to Whiteboard one Sunday and we had a good balance of skills. I was a product manager by trade. We had an engineer like CTO and then designer by trade, although Shahid had been working in VC for a little bit. Either way, we had all said, why are we not building together? We had been best friends for over a year at that point and we showed up to Whiteboard and what we actually decided to work on. We all had to come up with three ideas and we felt like video at work. We were using Snapchat in our day to day communication, but we would show up to work and we were using Outlook for email and we were like, one feels like the future, the other one feels like the past. Now we ended up having very specific applications of video at work. So we started with a user feedback platform that we wanted to be a two sided marketplace of experts giving feedback to companies, whether it's like PRD or Design File or even like live production experiences. Can you have an expert network that gives feedback for microtransactions? Now we kept pulling on threads as we were launching these and hearing from our users and customers that the ones that we wanted to build for those that actually had money were saying that this sort of video feedback that was a screen and a superimposed camera feed, that they wanted that from their real time users. So we ended up building a Chrome extension that enabled you to collect NPS feedback and then you could offer a discount to users if they ended up responding in a certain way. So for those that remember Soylent back in the day, they were actually one of our early beta partners and they would offer a 20% discount if a user would give video feedback as to, you know, the product overall or like maybe why they were potentially planning to drop off out of the checkout form. And then through going and working with five different companies and partners with this product, we actually started getting feedback that, oh, this recording with a Chrome extension and then the camera bubble, which is like fun because we had changed it from a rectangle to a bubble just to make it feel friendlier and nicer. They're like, can I record a video without having to upload some sort of user feedback on the website? And so we separated out the Chrome extension from the user feedback platform and launched that. And that is when we were like, we got something that works. We're like off to the races. And that's what we turned into and rebranded to Loom after we launched that product.

That's fascinating. So I mean, it's like you really iterated pretty fast. It sounds like, if I'm not mistaken, it was like seven months. And you went through a few iterations of products like you're just describing. And then, you know, I guess I'm just curious, like your, your customers were speaking to you, but like, were they literally speaking to you one on one? Like, what made you realize the thing that people really want is to communicate in quick videos and Thus the, the Loom insight was, was founded.

Yeah. So it was an absolute grind in the early days it took us. So we started building in September of 2015. We didn't launch what is now Loom until June of 2016. So it's about nine months of rapid iteration and a couple major pivots. And in those days, it really was one on one conversations. Like you, you can get a lot of earned secrets is like a phrase that an early product manager at LOOM used. And it was just through talking to people directly. I mean, part of the grind was, you know, we got blocked from our Gmail accounts a couple times because we were sending out hundreds of emails per day trying to get in front of people in order to say, would you use this platform? And then if you send out 200 and you only get a couple conversations, like, those conversations are worth gold. And so it was a relatively small subset of feedback. But if you actually look at what's required for essentially like Insight, you don't need to talk to that many people. You really only need to talk to six or eight to say, okay, this is a representative insight if you hear it from six or eight different people. And so that was how we really decided when and how to pivot. Obviously there was the usage metrics and feedback, which is, hey, we launch on product hunt, we spike up in terms of usage within the first 12 hours and then it goes back down to zero. So you're like, okay, something's clearly not working here. What's not working? And then what are the bright spots? What is working? What are people really interested in? And just being willing to make massive shifts in the early days because you have no idea what you're going to be working on longer term if you just start building and velocity is really important. And then being able to be a really good listener and understand what users are asking for of you and then acting on that.

Yeah, I love that. And we were just talking just before this podcast, before I hit record, and we said, you know, Loom has now become like a verb or a noun, like to mean. I'm going to send you an Async video, right. To describe it with like, you know, graphics in the background to show what's going on. How did you. I mean, it's great that it's now like, I'm going to send you a loom or I'm going to loom you. That's wonderful. But like, you know, when you started the company, it was by no means a household name. Why did you pick the name Loom.

So when we had launched it was under the brand. Open Test was the multi sided network that we were working on. And then, you know, one of my really terrible branding mistakes was calling the Chrome extension OpenVid. So people were confused about how did the Open Test platform map to OpenVid. And we're like, well, they're too two kind of like separate, different systems right Now. So use OpenVid as much as you want. You don't need to use Open Test in order to utilize OpenVid. But we knew when we launched on Product Hunt on what was basically Thursday night, but Friday evening at 12:01am because that's how you gamified Product Hunt. That Friday we had that spike in usage. Then Saturday I woke up and, and I looked at the analytics dashboard and we were having more users and more recorders on Saturday than we were on Friday. So at that point said we did it. I don't know what we did exactly, but we did it. And so from there it actually took us about six months to rebrand to Loom because we were really busy listening and talking to customers and building product features that they were asking for. Because all of a sudden we had thousands and thousands of users when we were used to having none. And.

Right.

It took us a little bit of time to rebrand, but we had been throwing around names for months and there was this, we liked the OOM sound, honestly. Like I, I don't know how else to like describe it because we were talking about plume or you know, flume. You just want like a single syllable name as much as possible. And I was, we were all like broke founders and my, I had a long distance girlfriend at the time who's now my wife and I was riding a megabus from San Francisco to la and I told Vinay and Shahid that I was going to get off the bus ride and decide on a name. And that's what we were moving forward with. And I looked up and I was researching online things around Loom and there's this concept of superluminal communication which is theoretically faster than the speed of light communication. Then it's also, you could tell a story around like weaving people together through Async video because there's a very real human component. And so you brought those together. And I had looked up some of the trademark things around Loom and it was like it's an open space for communication collaboration software. So that's how we landed on it. I mean it really is a, it's a nice word to say it is like there's a story to be told around it. And there was an opening for us to go after the name. And fortunately, you know, just to round up the story a little bit, we were under the URL useloom.com for a long time, but we knew that Dropbox owned Loom.com through an acquisition. And we were bugging them a lot for two years. And when they were going to go public, they were offloading some of their static IP that they didn't need anymore. And so we were able to purchase the loom.com domain from them.

Oh, I love that. Oh, that's such a great story. And I love how you sort of. It came together and it makes. It has resonance as it has meaning. But also, to your point, it's easy to say. It's easy to spell right, which is not always the case. So it's like a happy. It's a happy good fortune, happy coincidence.

100%. I mean, it really is. There was a window of time where software products had, like, cutesy names, and they all ended in ly.

Ly.

And to us, we wanted something that felt like it could be a household name. And that was obviously like a really high bar to set. But that was something that we felt like we had captured lightning in a bottle. And we needed a name that represented how big the opportunity was. You hear Apple and you're like, what does that have to do with computers? It doesn't need to be such a direct through line to be a great iconic brand. It doesn't need to be a literal translation. Pick something that you feel like is going to feel good to somebody when they talk about it to somebody else, I think is a really, really important kind of thing to keep in mind.

I love it. I love it. So during that grind, as you call it, you know, if I'm not mistaken, and we're like, kind of fill in the blanks for me. Because I think you were using your personal credit cards to fund the company. And also, I know that you said in one of your talks that you were like, you had two weeks of Runway left. If you're using your personal credit cards, you actually had zero, like, negative right Runway left. So, like, talk about that early days of, like, feeling like we. We have a limited time that we can really fund this business. Like, what was going on then?

So I had set a bar with Vinay and Shahid, who were both living in San Francisco, that if we raised at least $25,000, that I would uproot my life from LA and move to San Francisco to build this. And we landed at $25,000. Exactly. We had two angel checks, 10k and 15k.

You should have asked for more. You should have set a higher bar.

Exactly. In retrospect, it worked out. But I did have some regret when I had a twin mattress on the floor of my co founder's room for six months. But the thing was for us is that when we were deciding within these major pivots that we were making, we kept pulling up and asking ourselves like, and each other, are we still having fun? You know, like, do we want to continue to do this together? Because they were big changes and there was no guarantee. And we were sinking some of our personal funds, like our savings and checking. We all had good paying software jobs as relatively young individuals. And so we did have some savings in the bank and we were like clearing through all of those because San Francisco rent is not cheap and that we all had to progressively start to get rid of things like our cars that we had payments for. I had student loans that I didn't pay off until finally in 2020. And so there was very real, like major expenses that we had that we, that we didn't offload right away or literally could not. And so that was dwindling very quickly in terms of the 25k in our personal savings. But we kept talking to each other and being like, is this worth the dollars that we're putting in, including our own? And every time we said yes, we're having fun building together. It's hard, but we feel like we have insights that we should absolutely continue to go after. And so then you fast forward all the way to when you talked about of having literally 14 days of Runway left. Like, yes, our credit cards were maxed out. We had run through that 25k in our personal savings and we knew that this was our last shot on goal. We had been maintaining relationships with VCs. Like 1517 had actually asked us to start sending them weekly emails in terms of what we were working on, what the updates were. And we were doing that because we were like, we need more funding and so we'll take on this additional workload. But we knew this was our last shot. And then finally when we sent them that email around post launch and like, here's the first 72 hours of data, more usage on Saturday and Sunday than that Friday. They, they came to our apartment on that Monday and we told them that we're running out of money. And they're like, okay, well we'll just send you the 250k that we plan to invest. We'll like, figure out deal terms, but just so you all feel okay. And they sent us the wire by Thursday.

Wow.

And so, like, it really was this. We had no regrets. Well, like, by the time we had gotten to that 14 days left of Runway, you know, we obviously, it would have sucked to potentially have to like, go back and then potentially move into our parents places for a little bit. But Jeff Bezos talks about regret minimization framework. And like, if you look back on it, would you regret having given up because you were starting to run out of money, but you hadn't actually run out yet? And all of us were like, no, we need to absolutely run out before we give up.

You know, spoken like a true founder. Like, I guess I want to probe a little bit more on, like, what you're experiencing. So, like, you could say, hey, as long as we're having fun and we have, we're getting insights, we're making progress, we're having fun, but you can have a lot of fun in life without founding a company. So, like, what is the drive inside of you and your co founders that were. That was saying, like, and this is significant or and we can't give up or something like that, because it wasn't just about having fun. Although of course that's part of the game.

So I think that I appreciate this more in retrospect that I can articulate a little bit more. But I don't know that I fully appreciate it at the time, which is that it just felt special. I don't know how else to describe it. I think that we really were best friends that were living together in an apartment that were building together, that we had all experienced full roles where we felt like we were running our heads against a brick wall at the companies that we were working at, that we felt like we had more to offer, but we were being told no in a lot of ways. And so, you know, it was just as much about, hey, what can we do together? As like, we don't want to go back to that. You know, we. We all felt like we could do something together. And it was the best working experience that we had in our careers thus far. Because, like I was saying, we were all relatively young. The average age between us when we were building at that time was 24. And so I felt like we all had this experience of working together that we hoped that our future careers could look like. And so I think that that, to me, was what really kept us going Was that we didn't want to go back to the old world, which is part of why we started the company together is like, we're not necessarily bad employees because we're ambitious and we wanted to drive impact, but a lot of times we felt like there were bigger opportunities that the company that we were working at should go after. And we were misaligned, you know, and that misalignment is painful when you experience it. And so sometimes you just need to be your own boss.

Yeah, that's so true. To have that kind of control. So that's amazing. And so you landed that first, like really small, smallish check, although it kind of kept you where you needed to be. And then of course you. How much money have you raised total now?

A little over $200 million.

$200 million. My God. So I think that you probably learned a lot about fundraising in this process. So first of all, how did you set about like improving your fundraising skills or was it like a natural strength of yours?

No, I mean, we got a 100 no's before we got that one primary. Yes. And it is a little bit cliche to say, but you just have to go out there and put yourself out there and, and have at bats. But the one really important thing that I think if you're in the earliest stages of learning how to fundraise for the very first time, is right when you're done with the meeting, take detailed notes about like, what went well and what didn't go well. And a lot of times we would ask explicitly of investors who decided to pass. It's like, can you just give a sentence or two as to why? And like you have to assess on your end is like, is this valid feedback? Is this like, did they take the time to actually like write real feedback or is, you know, there are things that I think in retrospect, a lot of professional investors passed on us because of the fact that we were all first time founders and that we just didn't have extreme kind of like credentials. You know, we, we didn't go to prestigious universities. We worked at some solid companies. But were they like the premier companies? No. And so all of those things is like they're not super clear about what they're working on. You know, they don't have traction yet and they don't have the pedigree. So then from there I think you kind of like the pre seed is more about selling yourself. Because pre seed investors know that the idea changes over the course of time, so they're really investing in the founders. And I think that to me that's where we just had to prove it with usage. That that was like the real unlock for us was that we had real users and real traction and that's when we got real money from there. You really have to articulate clearly what dollars that you're raising for, for what are relatively simple goals of what you plan to do with that money. And I think that that was a really critical insight for us as we went to go raise our seed rounds was what do we plan to do with like okay, we raised a couple hundred thousand dollars, what are we gonna do with a couple million dollars? You know, that's like a order of magnitude increase in terms of dot. And so for us it was simple. Like we wanted to get to 25,000 paid customers and we wanted to grow the team from what was five people at the time to we wanted to build it to 15. And here's the roles and functions that we were hiring for and that's it. Like if we could go from users to paid revenue and we could prove that we could increase the talent level of the team, then that would bridge us to the Series A. Now did that work out in practice? Absolutely not. We did not monetize before our Series A. And that in and of itself was an incredibly painful round of funding to raise. Because you know, I got a lot of questions around are you all a consumer product in disguise? Because no B2B SaaS product raises a Series A pre revenue, at least not back in 2018. And so it was a good filtering mechanism because we got a lot of no's like 85% nos right on the front. But that means that there was 15% who are real believers in what we were building for. And then from there, like I said, you have to understand what the investors that you potentially want to work with understand in terms of de risking the value of the business between what story are you telling today? What progress have you made? Made but what are you going to do next? And there is, when you do get to Series A, it will likely be your first board member. Right. And so this is where you have to make sure that you are aligned on a 10 year vision in terms of what you're doing today. But also how do you ladder up and de risk the business over the course of time?

Yeah. So lots of questions like how actually do you make sure that you have that values alignment with that first as you said, the first board member, like how do you do it? Because you'd solver oh, we Want to.

Build a good thing?

Oh, we do too. We run it for the long term. Oh, we are too. You know, how do you actually test that?

We. And this is more of a. I heard it once from another founder and CEO and again this like you, you do start to appreciate these sorts of things that you logically understand but don't feel in your bones until, you know. Now I'm five years into my relationship with Ilya Fuschman, who is our series A investor and our first board member is that it is a 10 year relationship. And so I think that the most important thing you can do as CEO and founder is like investor relations is a real part of your job and work stream. And I think it's a big mistake to not be meeting investors and building relationships with them over the course of time because those that will spend real time with you as a founder and CEO before your fundraising kind of like wrestle, bring, be open with investors that are not around the cap table yet. Like bring real problems with them and see how you solve problems together. And so I knew Ilya for a little over a year before he invested in our Series A. It was the same thing with Andrew Reed. Like I knew him for about a year before he did our Series B. DG I'd met like when we were raising our B plus and he's at Andreessen Horowitz, but I had known him for about a year at that point. And so like the average length of time that I knew an investor before they officially became part of Loom is at least a year across the major like board members or board observers that we have at Loom and so while it is your early stage, I was there with any founder that's listening to this and like the pre seed, seed Series A, I was exhausted all the time. And you're like one more work stream. I'm like recruiting the entire team. I'm running the entire product roadmap. I'm like dealing with all of the HR stuff that we have to. And you're like, you're tell them you have to also build relationships with investors. And I'm like, yes, it is absolutely critical if you want five years on to have a high functioning board.

Yes. So wise. I actually, I want to keep asking about fundraising, but I really have to key off what you just said too. Like actually all the founders I work with, especially in earlier stage, are exhausted. They're working all the time. And every, everything you just described is mission critical. You know, the idea of spending all, all your time recruiting the team, all your time, making sure the roadmap's on the right, dealing with big customers or small customers in the case. Right. And then you've got to go out and you've got to, you know, build. Build relationships with many people, but certainly investors.

How.

What advice do you have or how did you think about managing all the things when literally there was not enough time in the day?

I spent a lot more time on this than I do now in terms of trying to be as rigorous with time tracking as possible. I forget the name of the software, but it actually was a desktop app that kind of like tracked all the different softwares that you were using. And at the beginning of each week, actually, Vinay Shahid and I would meet for what was originally founder dinner, and we would do it every Sunday, and we just have two hours together and, like, talk openly about the business, but we would also share, what do we do with our weeks next week? What did we do with our weeks last week? How would we rate ourselves in terms of productivity? And I wanted. I'm a product person by trade, and I want data, if I can get data. And so again, I forgot the name of the software. But there's more now that have come out at this point. But I really track my time in terms of how often or how much time per week was I spending with talent for people that I was recruiting, how many customer conversations was I had, having, like, even if it was working sessions of, like, product roadmap, I would track that on my calendar. And so all of this would be. I would reflect, how am I splitting my time? And then rearrange as appropriate. Because for me, the biggest thing was there's always a million things to do. And unless I created that prioritization and clarity for myself, then everything felt bad, you know, I wasn't doing anything well. And I think that it's really important for you to understand what's the most important thing for me to work on, and then try and hold yourself to that as much as possible. So that way you feel okay about all of the other fires that are burning, because there will always be fires burning, especially at those stages. And you just gotta make sure that you're prioritizing your time most appropriately. And that comes through tracking.

That comes through tracking in terms of knowing. But then how do you really know? Like, how would you say, on the one hand, the product roadmap, because, you know, the product is. Is our thing, it's our lifeblood as compared to talent. Like, literally, how can you decide which is more important how you can prioritize.

I think I. People default when they're really uncomfortable or tired to their strengths. True. So I found myself, I still love to work on product, right? Like, if I, if I could spend 110% of my time on that, I would. But I still love other parts of my job too, of talking to customers and working with roommates broadly in order to build the best company and product possible. But I know my default is I spend time on products. And so to me, I knew. And you kind of have to map your own strengths and you have to understand where you default, spend your time, time. And then what are the things that you're avoiding because you feel uncomfortable, like the most uncomfortable during it. And to me, it actually manifested a lot in hiring for roles that I had what I felt like no business hiring for. Right. Like I hiring our first business operations person. Hiring our first product marketer. Right. Hiring our first HR person. Right. Like, these were, these were all really painful for me. And when you're hiring for a role and it's been open for about four and a half or five months and you're still doing the job yourself and you know that you're indirectly avoiding it, you just need to hold yourself to the fire. And I think that that's one of the more painful things about being a founder, or specifically like a founder CEO, is that you have to wear so many different hats, especially in the early days. And so know yourself is really, really important. And then hold yourself accountable to doing the things that you really don't want to do.

I think that is so wise. I think it's a wise. Where did fundraising fall into that for you? I want to go back because I know that you wrote a document for your employees about what do we learn from our Series A. But would you say for yourself fundraising was like in my strike zone once I figured it out, or would you say, no, I put it off?

I would say that there are parts to the fundraising process that were my stripe zone and the parts that they were energy draining in the sense that like you, you have a lot of anxiety associated with it. And so to me, I love storytelling. I really do. I think it's such a powerful human thing that if you end up telling a story that people resonate with, I mean, my goodness, is, is that like such a amazing experience to be part of? And so I love being building the deck. I actually loved the part specifically around you're forced to dig into your data and try to find key insights and so finding those nuggets that you're like, wow, how did I not know this? I'll just tell a quick side story, which is we're raising our series A and Ilya Fuchman was like, you need to kind of tell the intra and inter company network effects or virality that's happening. So show how Loom spreads across organizations and then show how it spreads within organizations. And we were analyzing HubSpot specifically who had the most users on our platform at that time. And I knew that the CEO had signed up and started using it. But what Loom specifically did he sign up from? And to be clear, I didn't watch the Loom, but I could see the user was an IC engineer. I went to their LinkedIn profile, had seen that they were an intern during the time that he had recorded and sent to Loom. And that was the Loom that got the CEO Brian Halligan to sign up to Loom at the time.

Wow.

Yeah, it's like a really incredible story that like the fundraising process really forces you to dig into your data and find incredible nuggets about the value that your product and platform offers. Now, the parts that I didn't like so much was partner meeting meetings. You had built a relationship with one individual, but you learn over the course of time that their jobs are to champion for you in the background. The partner meetings are for the rest of the partnership to grill you on. First of all, how legitimate is the story? Second of all, how legitimate is the founder? They're going to intentionally pressure test you and see how you show up under pressure. Those when I didn't really understand the full dynamics, I'm like, ilya, why are you not stepping in here? Help me out. But just know that you're going in there and you're proving the worth of the company and the products and yourself because they're investing in you as CEO and your co founders. And so you just got to show up to the best of your ability. But it's still hard.

It's hard. Getting so many rejections is hard. I think it's easy to say, well, we got 85% rejections. Easy to say that Now I think when you get like 20 rejections in a row followed by 5, 5 additional rejections in a row, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, it's not easy. Can you take us back to like that moment where you were getting a bunch of rejections for any of your phases and what that was like?

Yeah, I think that the when we were earliest stage, when it was three co founders doing it. We all live in the same apartment. So it would be real time that we would share with one another. Like, hey, we got this email, we got passed. And honestly, you build a little bit when. When you're. The default is no. You build a little bit of a thick skin to it. I think that the first few are hard. You start to get a little bit desperate in the end, you know, and so the no's hit harder. But in the middle you're kind of like, are we doing everything that we can to improve the product and the story? And if we are doing that, then you're okay with the no because you're learning and you're improving. Like, I think that that's a really important, important resilience mindset to adopt in the earliest days of building a company is because you will get more no's than yeses by like a wide, wide margin. So you just got to get mentally comfortable with that. And then as time goes on, you think that like, oh, we're making progress, we're crushing it. We got this many users, how could they say no? And so you build an ego, right? And that's an ego serves you only as much as it's like, well, I have to puff up my chest a little bit going into these partner meetings. But it doesn't serve you in practice in the background when you're receiving the no. And it's like, how quickly can you move on and move forward? And I do think that one really important but subtle thing is how confident are you truly in your product and company? Because it's way, way, way more important to find the right part partner who deeply believes in you, then I felt like it was harder. Because when we finally cracked the story for our series A based off of feedback from Ilya and other investors about what are we looking for? And we could have shown the inter and intra company virality and how loom is spreading. And it's like, whoa, this story is incredibly compelling. So all of a sudden we have four term sheets and you're like, well, I have to decide between the four of who's the best and right partner. To me, take the nose as being like, well, it's actually a door that's opening to the right partner, like the real right partner. And so if you can adopt and flip that mindset a little bit, I think over the course of time that you'll be okay.

I love that. Yeah, it's resilience. And by the way, everybody founders need that. But guess what? Everybody in their career, if you want to do something interesting, if you want to go for something, if you want to try something which is hard, then you need to build that resilience because it's not always going to work. In fact, what I always tell everybody is like, go out and get 10 nos because if you keep getting yeses, you are not pushing yourself high enough.

Somebody just tweeted this the other day and you know, I was like, absolutely. This is right. Is like you gotta send like a cold email a day, right? Somebody.

I love it.

Even at it, like, and to me, that's what I'm gonna be doing with new feature sets coming out with like CEOs on our platform that I haven't talked with before. It's like, send a cold email because 1 keeps you humble and 2 is like, it's a, it's a practice and like resilience. And so you never get out of the stage of receiving no's or rejections ever, ever, ever. So you may as well get good at it.

I love it. That's so powerful. I'm gonna do that myself as a practice. I'm gonna do that just because you told me to. I love it. It's so good. You know, you're talking about my mindset. Really? And as you built, you know, the three of you co founders hired a bunch of people. Do you have like, I, the last I saw you had like 185 employees. How many employees do you have now?

Yeah, we're at about 175.

175. So you've talked about team mindset and so the three co founders certainly had a founder's mindset. But what do you mean by mindset and how important that is in terms of the success in building your company?

So this again, like a macro theme of this podcast is like, you really respect it and appreciate it looking back. But you know, we got early advice from an investor which is. And they, they had built their own successful company and was a full time investor at that point. They're like, don't undervalue being intentional about the culture from the early days. And we were only seven people when we did our first off site in Mexico. And we actually spent an entire day codifying our first cultural values as an organization. And we had one individual who's like, we're seven people. Why do we need this? We know how each other work. And to be clear, I was also a little bit in that camp too, but I was like somebody that I really respect told me that we should do this, so going to do it. And we ended up coming up with six values. We have five today. And while the wording change for the five are actually like, the essence of them are still the same. So to me, when I think about team and company mindset, codifying your values early, like forcing yourself to look in the mirror, because the other thing that the investor told us is as much as you profit, probably want to think about like a meritocracy, especially in the earliest days, you will realize over the course of time that as founders, you are the ones that are at the business for the long haul, right? Like most everybody else, even if they're there for six, seven, eight years, you all will be there for 10, 15, 20 years. So you have to understand that values are more reflection of yourselves as founders than anybody else. And so you actually have to look in the mirror and say, what are the things that I care about? What are the things that we want to imbue with the rest of the organization? And when you go through this a couple different turns, because like I said, we iterate on them, that you actually realize that there's just kind of core tenets to successful companies, that if you go out and you study Amazon's leadership principles or Stripe's cultural values, or insert any company that you really respect their culture and company from the outside, there's a lot of overlap between them. And so I do think that there's a corollary between successful founders. What they believe in, what their personal values are, how you translate those into team culture values, and how you own them over the course of time. And so for Loom, it's an optimistic owner who acts with velocity, keeping it real and human. And so there's like five words within there ownership, optimism, velocity, real and human.

And first of all, I love how you said, like, there were seven people and we did a whole day on values and, you know, sort of building culture. And even you were like, I can't believe we're doing this right. It feels like we're playing startup or something. But I appreciate that you took that advice from somebody who'd done this before and took it seriously because it turned. I guess I'm going to ask you, what kind of business impact has it had that you have those values codified? And what kinds of tough decisions have you made as a result of having those values codified?

So I think that that's exactly right. Which is like, values are good when times are good, but they're imperative when things are hard. And so for Us, really, the values are most important when you do do have to make hard decisions, as you were alluding to. And I think that like most companies over the last 15 months, they've had to make a lot of hard decisions in terms of how are you thinking about corporate efficiency? How do you think about the long term of the business? Do you believe based off your run rate, that you'll be able to raise additional capital within the time frame that's needed? Because you should never go under 12 months of burn. And if not, then you have to make hard decisions, decisions and hard changes. And for us, that was when I actually, within the executive team, we really leaned on the values of real and human in terms of what is the reality of the situation. Look at the financial model. It does not make sense. But with the changes that we're making, we want to be human about them as best as we possibly can be. So what does that mean in terms of. Of how we run the operations behind a reduction in force? How do you make it as compassionate as you possibly can? And that was just like a rallying cry for us is like, we have to keep it real with ourselves and the rest of lumates, but we can do it with human at the core. And then on the other side, it's like, okay, yes, this is an absolute shock to the entire company. A lot of us are going to through a macroeconomic downturn for the first time in our careers. So, like, how do you process this even at the executive level? And there is like, we have to own the decisions that we made as executives, which is like the ownership side of it. But we also have to be optimistic that, like, this is not. This is so far from the end.

Right?

Like, we. We have a job and a duty and a mission to show up for our customers in a certain way. And we need to obviously give lumates time to process generally, but we also need to be the optimists who are saying, okay, let's move forward. We have a job to do. And so that's where to me, it really was. Our values were showing up more often in our executive communication, especially to each other, as we are navigating and helping navigate the company through the reduction in force that we did in May of last year.

Yeah. And that's such a hard thing for everyone to do. Um, how did you. I guess I would love to know when you had to then galvanize the team, because that's what happens. You have to unfortunately part ways with people through no fault of it's not performance it's not their fault.

Right.

And yet you have to do it for the good of the company. So coming to terms with that is very challenging. But then how do you narrate and what advice do you have for founders going through this? Literally right now, what advice do you have for founders and how to articulate the difficulty, but also specifically articulate the optimism?

I think that you have to break them apart from a time perspective. You can't immediately shift into optimism within the same talk track that you're giving in terms of the changes that you're making, the reduction in force that you're making. The way we thought about it was we need to take ownership at the very top. Like, these were decisions I made as CEO to hire the people that we hired. And I fucked up, straight up, this is my fault. And from there it's like, here's the reality of the situation, here's the burn rate that we have. I think transparency is like, so, so, so important, especially in these scenarios. So here is essentially the most important metrics within the model. Here's our burn rate. Here's the Runway that we have. If we do make changes, here's what it is. When we did. And so this was a necessary adjustment that we needed to make from there. When you do that, you just let it land and you give time for individuals to talk to their managers afterwards. And what we had done was we had let leadership know a week in advance. We let managers know two to three days in advance. So that way you can actually have conversations within those reporting structures to make sure that they're ready to own it at the individual employee level. So when that actually rolled out to the company, the managers could have conversations with their reports. And I think that in terms of giving people time to process, played out at the, like, when we delivered it to the entire company, we did it on a Wednesday, which was basically like, people had Thursday to talk to their managers, and then Friday was okay, like, are you starting to do, like, a little bit of work? But, like, if you wanted to take Friday off, all good. Like, we totally get it. But Monday, after everybody's had a weekend to process is when it's our job to start moving towards optimism. Right? And you go back to, hopefully you've hired as many missionaries as possible. And the thing about, like, the financial model, it doesn't change the mission at all. Like, you, you have to continue to focus on the customer as much as possible. And if you do that, then I think that you can move towards optimism in terms of, like, here's the adjusted strategy going forward. We obviously have less resources. We can't do as much as we've been doing. So here's a strategy in terms of pulling back into the core. And that was one of the other core lessons that we learned through all of this, is that we just went too wide, too fast in terms of all the things that we were trying to do. And by having a reduction in force and having less resources, then you have to ask yourself, what are the most important things? So then the optimism is not just focused on the mission and customer, but the specificity around how you're focused on the core value proposition and what adjustments you're making from an execution perspective. And that takes time to be clear. Right. Like, people don't hear that, like, part of our jobs as executives is to be chief reminding officers. And so you just have to be ready to be like, not everybody's going to hear it on the front end. And so just you have to have a steady jump beat of that optimism and changes that you've made to move folks forward.

Yeah, I think it's chief reminding officers is so powerful and so very true. You know, I'm curious how, like, was that hard for you to learn that you realized, like, I need to be the chief reminding officer?

Absolutely. I mean, I think that that's why I say it all the time as like a self reminder as much as anything else. I think that that is one of the things that when you start to build and grow the company, it becomes more and more of your job over the course of time. Right. Because there's more disparate teams, there's more layers in terms of a messaging getting through. There's less touch points with everybody in terms of individuals. When you're all in the same office, it's easy to talk about the same things, everybody being on the same page. But as the company grows, you're going to have to say the same thing a lot of times over and over again in many different conversations, and you'll start to bore yourself. I mean, a funny example of this was that when we were raising our B during the beginning of the pandemic, my wife got to see what the fundraising process was like for the first time when I was pitching a bunch of different investors. And when we finally started signed a term sheet and she knew the pressure was off, she was like, okay, let me see if I can do the loom pitch at this point. And so she just like parroted it back because I was just saying the same thing over and over and over again. And it was pretty good. You know, it was just close enough to be hilarious. And so that, that to me is like the best representation that I have about what becoming a CEO over the course of time is, which is like get comfortable with saying the same thing over and over again because people need to hear that from you. Right? Like consistent narrative in terms of what's valuable. Why?

Totally consistency being everything. And I love that story. You should have hired your wife to then give the pitch. You know, one thing that we connected over when we first talked, I mean, it's just when you're talking about sort of like being the reminder and repeating yourself and having to like actually have a process around that. But what thing you and I connected over was meditation. I know you've had a very long term meditation practice and I know it's been a big part of your life. How did you get into meditation? And, and what is it like now? And specifically how has it impacted, would you say, your leadership style?

This was one just incredibly fortunate skill set that I ended up picking up as a result of. I had a design agency when I was in college and it was with my childhood friends. And Adam was always like a little bit different, you could say even like growing up. But he, when we moved out to California to run this design agency, he started going to ashrams in order to like go to these meditation classes. And he said, you should really start doing this. Like, I think, I think that you'd like it. And so I started going along with him. And to me, I think that meditation is one of those things that it's hard up front. Like it's, it's not like a super intuitive thing to do. And at that time, headspace and calm had just come out. You know, they were like brand, brand new products in 2012, 2013. But going, going to an actual physical location with my co founder at the time, in order to get through that initial phase, to me got me to the breakthrough point of I actually started feeling it in myself where I would notice it and actually like day to day behaviors. So the way I think about the core value of meditation, other than just kind of like calming yourself down, I think is what a lot of people go into it with. To me, it was actually, am I making better decisions for myself overall and do I spend less mental energy on the anxiety that I have? So that way I don't have decision fatigue by the end of the day because that's like your brain actually runs out of decision making power that's part of what happens and why you need sleep. And so to me, I actually felt like I had more longevity to make good decisions throughout the day. And then that combination pounds over the course of time. So when I started seeing and feeling that I was candidly addicted to it, there was no really going back because I hadn't experienced anything that was like. First of all, when you do get to a breakthrough point with meditation and you sit down for 15 minutes and then you stand up and you immediately feel better, I mean, that's incredible. But the mid to long term effects of compounding better decisions versus, like bad decisions is where it's like, I could never go back to not having a meditation practice.

Yeah. Gosh, I love the way you describe that. Has it also made you less reactive? Would you say?

Yes. So I think one thing that I don't know what else to attribute it to, but I got three siblings. I'm a middle child. And so there's an element of being a middle child that like, maybe you're a meal mediator. And that was certainly the case because I had three sisters and I was the only boy. And so, you know, they were, they were more kind of like fighting amongst themselves and I would have to negotiate with them to get everybody calm down a little bit. But so, like, I've. I think I've kind of like grown to be less reactionary as a. As a result of my meditation practice. But I think that I always kind of had a lower reactivity than the average population as a result of that. And then from there, you do have to have that as CEO as well. Like, I think that what I was talking about with resilience and not reacting emotionally, you know, things only kind of get harder over the course of time as the company grows and scales. Like, things feel like they always feel big, but consequentialness of certain decisions that you make or the level of severity of issues that come across your plate, they only get bigger and bigger. And you just can't be reactionary. You always have to be the calm force in the room. Now, to be clear, you have to know when it's appropriate to use stern language and when to say, hey, we need to get our butts in gear. But the default mode is to be non reactionary. And meditation absolutely helps helps with that.

Yeah. You know, I love that you just said that. I think it's so important, like to be able to choose a response rather than have a reaction. And sometimes this response you need to choose is, hey, I need this from you or, hey, that's unacceptable.

Like, do you.

Do you think about that consciously? Like, when should I push and when should I kind of comfort or how do you kind of build that balance?

Yeah, I think that the. When you talked about building that balance, you know, I've worked with the same executive coach for four years. His name is Khalid Halim. He's amazing. In our second session, he called out the fact that your greatest strength is usually your greatest weakness. Your greatest strength is how deeply empathetic you are, how that shows up in listening to customers what they potentially need and wanting to serve them. But also being empathetic as CEO, it will end up being your greatest, greatest weakness unless you hedge against that from. You can't make everybody feel comfortable all the time. And you have to deliver tough feedback. You have to make tough decisions. And this is going to be one of your hero journeys. Over the course of your CEO arc is learning how to give tough feedback when required. He's dead on, like, 100%. And so when you ask about intentionality of when to use this, it's like you. Yes. Because it actually takes a lot from me in order to overcome that hump to, like, give people tough feedback. So I have to push myself to do it more often. And the intentionality is not necessarily, like, leveraging at certain times. It's just, like, doing it.

Right. Well, like you said earlier that you sort of shy away from the things that you aren't good at or that make you uncomfortable. So, like, how did you learn to get more comfortable? Or how did you expand your repertoire, your toolkit, around saying the hard things?

You know, I think that this is similar to, like, the at bats things that I was saying with fundraising, which is, like, you just. You need to see that, like, giving tough feedback actually is okay. You know, like, people are fine. They actually, a lot of times appreciate it, and so you just need to do it more often, and you'll see that it's like, everything will be okay. I think that the other side of it is there is a good framework from Netflix, which is like the 4A framework. And I don't know all the A's by heart, but I do know that the framework is really powerful in terms of one, how do you think about setting up the feedback that you want to give to the individual? And so that's the first two A's, and then the other two A's is for the person giving feedback. It's supposed to make them feel okay about it, because when you give feedback, it's actually on the other individual decide if they want to take it or not, is it valid feedback? And so if you've kind of reduced the anxiety around, somebody is going to hear this feedback and they're either going to take it or leave it, that's really empowering to them. And it should be empowering to you that you're just going to express how you feel in terms of what needs to change and why. And so I think that to me, the combination of those two things, of repetitions and that framework are the two that I think has helped get me over the hub.

That is so powerful. I love that you said that. And the point about it's like, there's two people here, right? There's me giving the feedback and I'm expressing my point of view and it's important. And then there's the person who's got to deal with it, as in, like, decide what to do with it. And I think sometimes the notion of people pleasing has to do also with, like, somehow taking care of that person. Like, that person doesn't have any agency themselves. So when you expect them to take care of themselves and them to deal with what was just said, it's like you're. You're respecting them enough to give them that agency.

Exactly. And one, one of the, like, fun framings. Anique is our coo. She's been at Loom for almost three years. And she's like, feedback is a way of being somebody's, like, biggest cheerleader and fan. So, like, if you can actually tell yourself that that's true, that is actually true, is you care. So you give feedback and you are being their biggest fan as a result of it. That's when you would force yourself. You're like, I have an imperative as a manager to be their biggest fan and to help them grow. And you do that through feedback.

Yeah, it's so true. Like, what I always tell my clients is like, the framing is, I'm wasting my breath telling you this thing because I believe in you. Right. Otherwise I wouldn't waste my breath. I would just fire you.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah. I think that's great. How else? You know, Joe, I can tell by what we're talking about you've grown so much. You know, as the CEO, as a leader in the past, like, five years, can you articulate other specific ways that you have grown and as a leader, as a human being that have helped you as the company has grown?

Yeah. So I touched on a few of them, which I was just talking to Khaled about this earlier today, which is going through the number of years that we've been building loom for. You do end up learning your hardest lessons through the hardest windows of time. And so I think that to me, I've come to appreciate the hard times. I think when I was an early stage founder, when everything felt hard, perpetually, it's like, when is this gonna let up? But that is when you have the most growth is when times are hard. And so I've actually started to be friends with hard times is what you could say. And I think that that's really important. I think another part of time doesn't stop stop like your personal life doesn't stop as you're building a company and a business. And I think that one of the things that I've learned is how important taking care of yourself is. I've actually really, really started to prioritize that. A lot of folks talk about how important sleep is. You know, if I was wearing a whoop band back in 2017 or 2018, you know, the average number of hours of sleep per night would probably be like four, a half or five hours. But how many suboptimal decisions did I make as a result of that? And so I think taking care of yourself is unbelievably important. And it really is like it starts with sleep because it's free, you know, it's, it's free to get better quality sleep. It really is. And so the other part of that, and I think why I've actually focused on it more in terms of taking care of my myself is you can white knuckle it for a while when you're younger and you have more energy when you have less responsibilities outside of work. But I had a daughter 18 months ago. And so that really forced me to say, how am I prioritizing my time? How am I not just showing up for the company day to day, but how am I showing up for my family? And you can't show up for both of them in the same quality level level because you start working right when you wake up and then it's maybe like 6pm That I try and sit down and have dinner with my wife and daughter every single night. And if you're there and you're showing up exhausted, which to be clear, like, nobody's perfect. I absolutely do that some days, but I don't want that to be the norm. And so I, I need to start taking care of myself. I need to work out, I need to have my meditation practice and quality sleep are like the three things that I really focus on, on and if I do that, I'm actually a far better CEO than if I don't.

Yeah. Is there more you wanted to say? Because I think that that's really powerful. The notion of like taking care of yourself is a very powerful. It's like a moment of that you grew like you used to get four hours of sleep a night and now you're, you know, you're recognizing the self care tendencies are so important as a foundation of your role as CEO. Are there other ways that you think about that you've kind of grown as a CEO, as a, as a human, as a leader?

I think that there's. As you have more time with a company, you also understand where your strengths are and weaknesses are in more nuanced ways. You understand the things that you're actually like, you may be good at, but you're okay with passing the Legos. And there's things that you're good at that you're not okay passing the Legos. And sometimes I think that that's really important to understand about yourself because as CEO, as a founder, you actually have a lot more autonomy than you think. I think for me, I felt like I was riding on a lot of waves of feedback and advice to kind of like create a mosaic of a company that was it representative me, was it representative of the company that I wanted to build? And as you actually build a company over a longer course of time, you actually start replacing some of those pieces of feedback that maybe weren't more directly aligned with who you are and who you are as CEO and what you feel like if you want to do this for another 10 years, what are the sorts of things that you need to swap out from a roles and responsibilities perspective? And how do you do that in a way that feels not just optimal for you as an individual, but how do you do that for the company as well? And so I think that that's where to me, that is how I've really started optimizing the company over the last couple years is what you could say is how do you mix and match roles and responsibilities?

What's an example? A few examples.

So one is that I do really love products, as I mentioned, and when Anique, who's our coo, she was our VP of product and she hired a design leader underneath her. And I was like, I want you to feel fully autonomous with your relationship with Christina, but by having a design agency before I started Loom and like, you know, I'm not adept with Figma. But back in the day I was pretty good with the Adobe Creative Suite. And so I built an intuition and an understanding of user experience that I felt like was a real value add for Loom overall. But I felt like I had like grown a real distance to the design of our product where I wasn't part of the design crits. I was, I wasn't part of a bi weekly sort of meeting that would help me get into the early stages of design because a lot of times I would only see it once it was in product and I'd record a loom and I'd send it back to the team and like, we just got done with this, you know, like, and so to me, an example of that was like, I asked Anique and Christina, I was like, hey, can we set up bi weeklies? Like, I don't need to give feedback directly to the team. You can translate it, but I want to like notion document of all the Figma file links and I want to be able to go through it. And we spend an hour and I give you feedback. And so we brought that back. And it's one of my favorite meetings that I have. And to me, those are the sorts of things that you learn over the course of time that you're like, oh, I feel distant to that and it doesn't feel good.

Right, because everyone tells you you've got to let your Legos go and you've got to delegate and you've got to trust the team and all that stuff, but you're like, this is not working for me.

Yeah, there's this really interesting concept from Matt Mokeri, who has like the great CEO within and he has a framework called the Energy Audit. And it means, like, basically, as you go through a week, what are the things that give you energy, what are the things that take energy, what things are neutral? And then what are the things that you feel like you're missing? And if you just go through that framework, you'll start to find the gaps in terms of how do you energy optimize? Because energy is the atomic level of what I was talking about showing up for work, showing up for family. And so you do really need to be intentional with optimizing your energy over the course of time.

Yeah, totally. You know, Joe, we have got to talk about Async leadership. We've got to. Right, so Loom is an Async tool. It's so, so useful. But I just want to say I have seen Async bloopers in my time. Like I saw a loom that a CEO sent his, his, one of his people. And it was like he was like free associating on his computer real time. And I was like, oh dear, no, this is not the way to do it. So I'm just curious, first of all, what Async bloopers have you seen and what are some best practices when it comes to async leadership?

So I actually think that to me, one of the bloopers is thinking that async is the end all, be all. I think it's a like tool in the toolbox. I think for optimal communication and collaboration, you kind of have to understand what is the core value of synchronous time versus asynchronous time. And I think that when you lean too heavily on asynchronous, there's downsides to it. And so I actually the. One of the frameworks that we talk about about at LOOM and like, part of the core value proposition of our offering is that it helps meeting reduction. And so we're not saying meeting replacement, although it does replace some meetings, but it's meeting reduction. So a 45 minute meeting can be 30 minutes if you sent out a 10 minute loom in advance walking through the deck. And what you should be optimizing your synchronous time for is bursty communication, right? And we what that translates to the visual is like if you have a ball and that represents who's talking, you should optimize for the number of passes that happen in a meeting. And that is bursty communication because that means you're rapid collaborating on something. If somebody is standing up and talking for 10 or 15 minutes at a time, that should have been asynchronous context that was given in advance. And so then on the flip side of the most important, important kind of like Async framework that I think about is how would I move this work forward if everybody on my team was asleep right now? Right. Like, am I able to effectively communicate something when everybody's asleep? If so, send asynchronous communication, give them the context. And a lot of times it's actually, yes, I can move the work forward without synchronous. What you should really use synchronous time for is bursty computer communication as much as possible. And so the default becomes asynchronous. But I would be remiss to say that asynchronous is the end all be all. Because we're humans, we biologically evolved to talk to one another. It's the most efficient way that we've learned to kind of collaborate on something. So those are the two frameworks that I think about with synchronous versus asynchronous.

I love that so much. I especially love the notion of bursty communication. That's so good. That's so good. And also. Right. Like the idea of moving it forward so that you can give the context and that you then you leave the meeting. I mean, I love meetings. No one else loves meetings. I love meetings because they have that social interaction and the possibility of bursty communication as opposed to someone lecturing us in the middle of the room. So I love the way you frame that.

That's so great.

Totally. And I think that the other thing that's interesting about, you know, for loom, asynchronous work has actually been a default as a result of the products that we're building and delivering. And so one of the things that I think some folks feel a challenge with in terms of that framework around moving work forward if everybody's asleep is like, man, how long would it take me to document this thing for Loom? That was one of the core value propositions is it's super high fidelity communication with minimal amount of work. And so you're minimizing back and forth, forth on the other side of it, which is like, when somebody views it, it's really hard to misunderstand a video. It can be easier to misunderstand a plain text message. And so for us, I think that we've always had this in our core where it's been like organic and natural result as a result of the product that we built.

Yeah, I love it. Joe, just a few more questions. Tell us about any experiences you've had with imposter syndrome. So many founders and frankly, many, many highly successful people experience imposter syndrome or severe self doubt. Have you ever experienced that?

I think to me, over the course of time, like, imposter syndrome is kind of a default, right? It's atypical if you don't have imposter syndrome, no matter what your role or function is. You know, when I was working at my life was a company before Loom and I was a product manager, and I would get up in a meeting of like 24, five or 30 people and be presenting a roadmap, like, who am I to be saying this? What do I know? And I think that to me, there's a couple things. One is the more successful the company is over the course of time, imposter syndrome will never go away. I think that that's okay. And because what it does is it allows you to kind of like, self reflect and be like, okay, well, what value is it that I'm offering? What is the unique perspective that I do have? And regularly asking yourself is actually really healthy. It's almost like standing in the mirror and doing like, the self esteem talks, but more specifically about who you are, what product you have, like, what value that you're offering. And so that's one thing. I think that the second thing is when you have more repetitions over the course of time. Like, if we were doing this podcast when we were like nine or 12 months in, I would have been so nervous for like weeks and weeks and weeks leading up to this. But what you do is, like, you get comfortable with certain things that you feel like maybe you'd have imposter syndrome for like, I actually, it probably resonate with quite a few folks listening to this, this. But, you know, getting up on stage and presenting is not a default for me. I actually have whatever, like, physiological responses that, like, my palms sweat, my handshake, my voice shakes a little bit. But over the course of time, I've kind of like, built up my comfort with it, you know, and like, you just have to familiarize yourself. And so to me, the imposter syndrome part about, like, who am I to be like, saying these sorts of things and sharing my opinion, It'll never go away. Get comfortable with it. But, you know, over the course of time, you will get more and more comfortable with parts of your role that you feel like, oh, my gosh, I could never do this. And then you'll wake up one day and you'll be like, oh, I'm presenting at a conference. You know, that's pretty cool.

Totally. You're like, oh, I'm on stage in five minutes. Oh, okay.

Right.

Because you've expanded your comfort zone. You've got to kind of get out of your comfort zone in order to expand what's possible for you in a comfortable way. That's so well said, Joe. What do you wish you had known earlier on your journey?

I wish that I had known that Loom was going to be successful. No, I'm just kidding. Yeah, we're not. First of all, we're not successful yet. And also, we probably wouldn't have worked is hard.

You are successful. But it's nice to. It's easy to say that now. Yeah.

Yeah. I do think that one of the core things that I've been reflecting on over the last year and a Half is like Airbnb had this philosophy about having a culture interview that was run by one of the founders until they were like 2,000 people or something like that. They were meaningfully slowing down their hiring pipeline. And to me, I think we went through this window of time in 2020 and 2021. It was really hard to hire, and you end up kind of like lowering your bar a little bit and bringing folks in. And what I'd say is you got to just be patient. So the trope feedback is like, higher slow and fire fast. And I don't like the phrasing of that exactly, because I actually think it's more about what I've learned over the course of time is it's more about like a company individual fit. And the thing is, when you let somebody go, it's like they'll find another better fit. You know, like this. This isn't the end of their career. But you should never lower the bar on the front end because firing is always hard. Like, you never get over that. I still get very nervous going into conversations where I have to let some. Someone go. And that's just the reality of the situation. But to me, I wish that, looking back, that was like, the one thing I wish that we had not done when hiring was really hard was trying to put butts in seat. Because that's never the right answer ever.

Yeah, Yep. Hard one wisdom. I totally hear you. And last question, Joe, what advice do you have for other founders as they.

Embark on their journey to grow into leadership?

I think it's a lot of the things that we touched on, but I'll try and do it in, like, brief bullets. One is, I hope you have a co founder that, like, you deeply respect and you love in a way that, like, you can, like, love your co founder because it's going to be hard along the way. You're going to go through a lot of things together, and the co founder relationship is unbelievably important. The second thing is listen to customers that never, ever, ever goes away. Right. Deeply respect customers, try and translate them to the best of your ability, but never stop listening to them about what value that they want from your product and platform. Because I think we lost that a little bit along the way in 2021 when we were expanding into these surface areas that even just like, call it basic research would have told us that this was not going to be the best use of everybody's time and resources. So listen to your customers deeply. And in the early days, it's probably going to mean pivots later days. It means better iteration and better servicing of your customers. And then the other thing is just get comfortable with discomfort. Because it never gets comfortable as a founder and CEO. It never ever does. And so the more that you can reframe that in your head to the best of your ability, which is that pain is growth, and it's usually the fastest form of growth, that you'll start to befriend pain and discomfort in a way that is necessary if you're going to do this for the long haul.

So well said. So wise, Jo. So wise. I love it. Gosh, this is such a valuable discussion. I just want to know. It's been so great to talk to you and I I really appreciate you bringing the real talk to the table and I just know people are going to really benefit from this. So thank you so much for joining me today, Joe. It was really great to spend time.

Thank you so much for having me on Alyssa.

Thanks for listening to From Startup to Grown Up.

If you like what you heard, give it a review on Apple Podcasts so other people can find it. And if you know of a founder or someone else who is meant to be on this podcast, drop me a line through my website, alyssacon.com.