Alisa Cohn: Mature Your Leadership

Hello and welcome back to Franklin Covey's On Leadership Podcast series, the largest weekly leadership podcast globally. My name is Scott Miller and I am truly privileged and honored to serve as your host and interviewer each week. You may know that recently I published a number one new release book on Amazon called Master 30 Transformative Insights from Our Greatest Minds, drawn from the most interesting and compelling interviews from the first year of Franklin Covey's On Leadership Podcast and we continue to have new editions coming out in 2022. Look for Master Mentors Volume 2 in this next year that will actually allow you to glean insights from 30 new guests from On Leadership Today. Our guest is Alyssa Cohn, the author of the new release From Startup to Grown Up. I like to refer to her as a bit of a globally in demand coach advisor speaker. She also is, from her own words, a recovering cpa. Alyssa, welcome to On Leadership.

Thank you so much Scott for having me.

Alyssa, delighted that we have you to join us today because when we call our thought leaders for On Leadership, we like to have a broad swath of people. Some people that are household names, some that are big celebrities and CEOs and then people like you that are growing in influence and brand perhaps from the clients you have. You've been a coach to some remarkable startups and CEOs in your career, and then there are people that also have your profile where you just write common sense. You don't have one big idea. Perhaps you do. But in your book you actually are, like me, a bit of an aggregator. You are a pollinator. You are an expert in common sense. I once read in someone's book, if it seems like a stupid idea, but it works, it's a good idea. And in many ways I find your book to be a collection and tome of extraordinarily wise leadership practices. But to quote Voltaire, you know common knowledge isn't always common practice. And to quote Dr. Covey, to know but not to do is not to know. So today what we're going to do is we're going to revisit some of the foundational leadership principles that you coach with and you write about in your new book and have a great conversation around the things that all of us sometimes know but don't always practice in our daily business and personal lives. Before we do that, would you take a few minutes and maybe reorient all of our listeners and viewers to your own academic and professional journey, why you are so passionate around leadership and entrepreneurship and we'll get into some of the concepts of Your new book.

I would love to do that, Scott. And by the way, I take it as a compliment, this idea of, you know, helping people come back to basics in some way. But I should just say I started my journey, you know, I did a few number of sense of the nonprofit world. I was, I went to Cornell for business school and it was there that I really wanted to be, you know, sort of somehow do organizational development and be and help people be aligned with the mission of their organization. I got all turned around at Cornell and I focused on strategy and strategy and finance and accounting and I exited into PricewaterhouseCoopers. PricewaterhouseCoopers. I was on the so called fast track to partner the advanced development program. Five years to partner. The only problem was after two and a half years, I just realized this is not for me. I kind of had a moment of truth. I thought, I hope I get the flu so I don't have to go into work tomorrow. And sure enough, 18 hours later, I was rushed to the emergency room with the flu. So I realized, hey, I don't think that my body is speaking to me. And I realized, like, this is just not for me. I've got to figure else what out to do, what else to do. And in my head, the music in my head was to make a difference, that the work of my hands mattered. And you know, PwC, which is a great firm, was just too big for me to make, make me feel like the work of my hands mattered. So I met a coach at a conference. I was totally inspired by her. Violins played when I heard her speak and I'm like, that's what I want to do. I want to do that. I see myself in that. But I thought I was too young to be a coach and I ended up joining the startup world. So I was a CFO of one startup, the head of strategy of another startup. And when that kind of all imploded in the 2000 time frame, I thought, okay, I'm going to become a coach right now. So that is my sort of coaching journey and I think also my first entry point into the idea of startups and what they were all about.

Alyssa, I think you would agree sometimes the most profound coaching advice books are those that are the most practical. And we all want to be inspired with trends and where the next big innovation is coming. And when it comes to leading people, leading ourselves, leading the business, sometimes the principles exist right in front of us. We just have to be reminded of them. And that's going to be the nature of today's conversation. I applaud your bringing a sort of current practicality to these universal principles that oftentimes get lost in the the flutter of information and new trends and chasing the next new shiny thing. So let's do just that. I think one of the organizational structures of your book is this simple but profound idea around managing yourself, managing others, leading others, if you will, and then managing the business. Let's deconstruct each of those. Maybe you might share with us one or two big ideas on each of those three components. We all know this concept that you can't manage others until you manage yourself and But I wonder how much of us actually put that into our daily habits. What have you found? Are some of the most impactful reminders, behaviors, mindsets that leaders Whether you are the leader of a small entrepreneurial company or the leader of a platform and a large multinational, what are the things we all should be reminded of about how to best lead ourselves?

Yeah, you're making a great point, Scott. You know, the first person you lead every day is the person who wakes up in your pajamas. But people don't always act like that. We're at the, you know, we're sort of the victims of the things that happen to us, like, you know, having fights at home or not getting enough sleep or being upset by bad news during the day. So my point of view about leading yourself is actually very simple. Increasing your self awareness and getting up to speed on your triggers, on what upsets you, what tends to set you off, and also what calms you and what makes you feel good, and inserting the things that prime you and modulating yourself for the things that kind of upset you. The second thing is to get aware of your natural swing. Do you tend to hold your cards close to your chest? As a leader, you must communicate intentionally with the folks around you in multiple ways. Do you tend to sort of, you know, say everything that comes into your head, hey, as a leader you have to be aware of your audience and recognize that when you speak, the boss is speaking, the CEO is speaking, the leader is speaking. So people are really taking your words seriously. So be aware of all that. So leading yourself has to do with self awareness, of understanding of how you're showing up and being intentional in how you do that. The last thing I want to say about self awareness is it's super important for all of us to protect the asset. I should say managing yourself to protect the asset. And managing yourself has to do with getting enough sleep, making sure you're eating right, having fitness and de stressing activities in your day and your week to make sure that you're taking care of yourself for the long term. Because business life is a long term game.

As I'm listening to you, Alyssa, I recognize that when I'm leading myself, I have to think about the things that set me off, right? The things that are like my triggers. One of the things that I recognize as a trigger for me is I don't like being schooled. I don't like being told the obvious. I tend to react really negatively. Even if I'm violating that principle. I don't like being schooled. And what happens when someone schools me? Perhaps they're trying to help me or they're trying to inspire me. And I either know that I'm wrong or I feel embarrassed. I usually like verbally eat them for lunch, right. To shut it down. And I recognize that as I'm thinking about you, you're going to perhaps be my jiminy cricket going forward. When someone is schooling me, it might be that I'm feeling schooled, but that isn't their intent. Right. I have to recognize that how I'm receiving the message may not be how they're always sending it.

That's very well said. And you know, Scott, what you said is, oh, they might just try to be help me or, or they might be even correct. Or they might not even realize that they're schooling you. Like, for them, it might just be something that they are saying and noticing and that you take it in and you're giving your own load to it. For all of us. We all do that. So then it's very helpful what you just did. It's a learning trigger. It's ah, when I'm feeling schooled, what I can choose to do is insert a more productive behavior, which might simply be to say thank you to that person and then decide for yourself what you want to do with that information.

Alyssa, not a new concept, but you write about imposter syndrome. We've all heard about this. We know what this is. But you have a little bit of a twist on kind of when it comes into our careers, especially as entrepreneurs. How would you address this? All of us face at some point in our career, in new jobs, whether you're in your 20s or whether in your 50s. Right. We all have this brush with imposter syndrome. What would you speak to about that?

Well, there's a lot to say about imposter syndrome. So first of all, just to understand what it really is, it's severe self doubt. It's also specifically the sense of like, oh, someone's going to find me out and they're going to finally realize the jig is up. And so we had that in different shapes and sizes throughout our career. And there's two things. One is that I think it's very helpful to do what's called a highlight reel. I had one of my clients do this. I had him write down the specific capabilities that he had, his successes in the past, all the things that were hard for him to do that he was able to overcome. So you have that with you and you could read that daily. You could read that before a difficult situation. So my client Matt, he read it daily and he reported back to me and said it made me feel so much better because I had this every day priming me, knowing that even when I came up with something that was going to be difficult, I had already accomplished difficult things before. So that's a highlight real and it's very helpful. But also in my book, I talk to a number of found who have been very successful. One of them is Susie Batiste. She's the founder and CEO of Poo Pourri and one of the top 80 richest self made women in the country. And what she said to me was, I don't have imposter syndrome. I am an imposter. I have never done this before. And so I think this part of it we can all embrace the fact that when we're a beginner, it's going to be uncomfortable, but you have the capacity to learn and grow. And that is actually part of the point of this whole book. Helping you understand your capacity to learn and grow and then teaching the tools to help you learn and grow.

What a profound insight, right? I don't have imposter syndrome. I am an imposter. I love the embracing of that. Since you used the phrase I know what this company is, Poo Pourri. Talk a little bit about how this sort of innocuous item became this mass craze primarily with women, but certainly probably with men too. Talk about the business.

Well, just to say, Poo Pourri is an extraordinary product from the point of view of, you know, we all have, let's say, bathroom odors that we wish would go away. Well, Susie is very into fragrance and also making things. And she sort of concocted this wonderful concoction where you spray it in the toilet and it makes things smell much better, let's put it that way.

It's like the Febreze for the bathroom toilet, right?

Yeah, that's a good way to put it. And Susie had had this sort of background of a lot of misses, a lot of misses in business, and a lot of misses financially. And when she hit on this idea that she knew intuitively that it was the right thing. So even following her intuition is actually something that we can all learn from. And she just went, went by the process of like, one foot in front of the other, step by step, build it by bootstrapping, built this business and hired people around her to make up for her own deficiencies, things that she didn't know how to do. And this was the thing that really, it was a massive hit as a product and as a company has been a foundation on which she and others have built other things.

Alyssa pivot, from managing yourself to managing others. You speak a lot about having social awareness when it comes to managing others. What does that mean, and why is that so important?

So social awareness has to do with recognizing, reading the room and recognizing the feelings, sort of the vibe that's going on in the room. Also, even more importantly, as a leader, you are the expert on your intention. Everybody around you is the expert on your impact. And marrying your intention with the impact you're having, that is one of the most powerful tools that you have as a leader, really, so that you understand that when something comes out of your mouth or you behave a certain way, it has a desired impact. And that means that when you can do that, you're more able to communicate with people, commiserate with people when that's appropriate, hold people accountable without making them feel bad. And overall, support forward motion of the team. And your biggest job as a leader is not to decide things, not to do everything yourself, but to support forward motion and create the ecosystem. People can do the best work of their lives.

It reminds me of my role as a parent. You know, my wife and I, Stephanie, have three young boys, 7, 9 and 11, and they all fairly fit into this classic birth order, right? My youngest has a bit of a wild card. My middle child is a wild child, independent. My oldest child is sort of the classic angel rule follower. And I was talking with him. His name is Thatcher, named after my hero, Margaret Thatcher. And just this week I was saying to Thatcher, thatcher, your superpower is empathy, is reading a room. Thatcher is 11 and he can walk into a dinner party and then within 30 minutes, he can tell you who is nice and who is not. He can tell you who is successful and who is portraying success. He can tell you who is shy and who perhaps feels like they're out of place. He's great at reading a room and then going to that person that perhaps is sitting by themselves or appears to be uncomfortable. At 11 he has this superpower and I've said to him Thatcher, I'm not sure how you're going to use this but this is a leadership competency is being able to read a room and recognizing who might need to be left alone, who might be alone but would love to have someone that's non threatening to support them, who might need some feedback. So I love that you brought this up as a practical leadership skill. Let's pivot for a moment to managing the business. Right. I mean, duh. But I know a lot of leaders that need to be better managers. I know a lot of leaders that have charismatic personalities and they're very creative and they have big vision but they can't deliver a quarter to save their life. They can't land a project to fund the business. Talk about how important it is to balance your self management and your culture skills with delivering results and making and keeping commitments.

Yes. You know in the book I say I don't ever want to get too far from business impact because at the end of the day, in the context that I operate in businesses and certainly in fast growing startups, but in all corporate environments that I'm in, you know, the business is kind of need something from us. By the way, I actually think that links to managing yourself and managing others. The point is that the business needs something from you. So the first person you lead is yourself. They need to lead other people around you in service of what. So I talk a lot about dashboards. I also talk about like the joy of meetings and when you structure meetings, how how really magical they can be in terms of bringing people together and also in terms of syncing everybody up and moving projects down the path. So what I think is the problem with meetings is that people don't do enough pre work for them and don't prepare enough for them and they don't quite know how they're going to get to their outcome. But I think what's important about what you said is I worked for a while in a company, I didn't work with the CEO, but he was one of those charismatic leaders. There was a. Their main project was way off track and when I asked him about it, he said oh, you have to be patient sometimes. So okay. But I was the one doing 360 feedback around inside of the company and I talked to a lot of the people. It turned out that the Head of product just didn't know how to deliver the project. He was not project managing it. He was not coordinating with the engineers. And they had some legal and sort of regulatory requirements that were also not happening. Everything was stuck. And the CEO, rather than actively walk in and help people get unstuck to move it down the field, he just said, oh, you have to be really patient. The problem is that he wasn't in the weeds enough of management. I also want to say that everyone says, oh, as a leader, you've got to zoom out. You've got to zoom out, which is true. You've got to trust your people, which is true. But I think the most sophisticated skill that you need as a leader is to know when to zoom in. Like, oh, there's something here that needs my attention in my hands and when to zoom out. Trust people, empower them and know what they're doing. It is complicated for even senior leaders to really navigate those different moments.

Alyssa, the title of your book is From Startup to Grown Up. I think the tagline should be uber practical advice too few people follow. Because I think you're like the king or queen of practicality. I think I read in the book also you mentioned something about how so many companies are fixated on small expenses and things like that, but yet they'll have highly productive meetings that run hours over time and they don't quantify the value of that. So many nuggets like that in the book. Let's talk about the power of feedback, both providing it and giving it. I think all of us are very aware from listening to me and reading my books as well, what a champion I am of both providing feedback as Dr. Or Stephen Covey and his son Stephen. Mr. Covey would say that perhaps the biggest gift a leader can give his or her team as feedback on their blind spots. That should be done with both high courage and high consideration. Oftentimes leaders, I think find themselves on one end of this litmus scale, right? They say what's on their mind and oh, you know, where you stand with them. But they perhaps verbally eviscerated you or diminished your self esteem. Or the other end is they're so diplomatic, or so to quote Kim Scott, they're ruinously empathetic versus radically candored. Talk about the power of feedback and maybe even what are some things people, leaders do, right or wrong, when they're providing feedback to others.

Feedback is of course one of my favorite topics too. So thank you for bringing this up. I think what leaders miss in providing Feedback is, first of all, the power of positive feedback and how important it is to give people positive feedback. They know they're doing a good job and also to use that to also showcase progress. In startups and really in all of corporate life, there's a lot of obstacles, a lot of problems, a lot of issues. Constantly if people are not reminded of what they're doing right and how well they're doing, they can be actually kind of feel pretty down. And then you don't get discretionary effort out of them. You don't get them, you know, they're really full heart at work. Also, if you don't merchandise progress for them, show them progress, you don't give them that kind of motivation. So that's the first thing. The second thing is that in all the feedback you want to give, you want to signal positive intent. So when you're about to have a difficult conversation with somebody or let someone know about some blind spots they have, or maybe some problems and concerns, you want to really signal positive intent. I like to think I'm wasting my breath about this because I see your potential. Otherwise I wouldn't waste my breath about this. I see that you could operate a much higher level and I want that for you because I care about you and your career. So as such, I just want to talk to you about whatever you want to say. Their participation in the meeting, their way of leading people, their way of achieving goals, or sadly not achieving the goals. If you care about people and you showcase that, you're able to deliver whatever message you need to and they will take it in a good spirit.

Elissa, that part of the book and what you just said reminded me of my first onboarding experience at Franklin Covey. I've been in the firm for 25 years. I'm since retired as an officer, but have the privilege of consulting back in and advising the firm and hosting this podcast. When I first started 25 years ago, I worked in the education division and the leader at the time was a man named Chuck Farnsworth, a mentor of mine, a coach, a very dear friend. He fired me three times and I managed to claw my way back by the end of the day. Story of my career. And he and his division. Say that again.

There's a whole world in that story.

Well, there is. It's a book called Management Mess to Leadership Success that I authored, you know, and one of Chuck's great leadership skills was he instituted this concept in the division called Pre Forgiveness. I'd never heard of this. I came from a Fortune 50 company. There was no pre forgiveness. In fact, they invited me to leave. There was so little pre forgiveness in that previous career. But Chuck had this cultural imperative that you are pre forgiven. You're going to make mistakes. That's called taking risks. You're going to do things wrong. That's called being an imposter. You're going to say things that are going to offend people. Welcome to being a human right. Let's not repeat those. But it took a whole level of anxiety away from you, and you wanted to stretch and learn and grow and take some calibrated risks to help grow the company. And this concept of you're pre forgiven was enormously empowering to me. Similarly, you introduce a concept that is kind of the antithesis of what I call the post mortem, which is the meeting after the project. It's the meeting after the launch to say what went right and what went well. It's the debrief, perhaps after some feedback. What's the postmortem of that? You coined a phrase called the pre mortem and which I'd never heard of before. Riff on that.

Thank you for bringing that up. And by the way, I do like me a good post mortem, but I think even before that is the pre mortem, which means you and your project team can sit together and say, let's assume we failed, let's assume we failed. What are the conditions? What are the situations that happened? What are the mechanics that were not in place that unfortunately caused our failure? Let's talk about that. And one of my clients did that. She was running a sort of a steering committee for this massive project that she was working on with her team and another large company. And they sat around and they all wrote down the why did we fail? Pre mortem answers. And one massive reason that they came up with was why we failed was we did too big a team. We did not stay coordinated enough and we did not meet regularly enough. So she did two things. She had regular meetings, even though people didn't want to meet and even though it wasn't time to meet. She made sure they had regular meetings. And she broke up people and also into tiger teams to make sure they get the substantive work done. Because of those, everyone did stay on the same page. And the project was a massive success. And it was really, really, really, you could say the one factor was their ability to talk openly about the failure at the beginning. I'll put that in quotes. Failure in the pre mortem. And that allowed them to take the appropriate action. And the proper action to then be successful and prevent those avoidable mistakes.

Invaluable leadership insight. Is there a role for the pre mortem in a feedback session? Or perhaps you're doing a 360? I know that the feedback post 360 is usually horrifying, right? It's like go to the restroom and throw up. Is there a role for pre mortem and feedback?

That's a very great question. And I love the idea of taking the pre mortem into the feedback sort of milieu. One thing, as a leader, you as a leader could do this right now. First of all, I love the pre forgiveness thing too. You could pre forgive yourself and you could say, I am a human being and I'm doing the best I can and I'm subject to all my baggage and all my idiosyncrasies and I'm pretty sure I'm doing a few things right. And so sadly, I'm probably always already doing a few things wrong. So that's the pre forgiveness piece. Then there's the pre mortem piece. If I were on the other side of me and I were going to give myself difficult feedback, bad feedback, what would that be? What would be the difficult feedback that I would give myself? What would be the reasons that I'm not the best leader for my people or for these projects and the things we're trying to get done? Let me think about that. That's a good moment to talk to a good friend or a peer coach, maybe a few other trusted people, and talk in advance about what are the difficult things I might learn and could I correct them right now?

In fact, Alyssa, I have, like you, given feedback to people on countless occasions because I love feedback. I hate that feeling of wondering, am I in trouble? Am I on the edge? Am I relevant? Am I getting fired? And because I hate that feeling so much, when I became a leader, I was determined never to let that be my legacy with those with me now, perhaps I went too far and gave too much feedback too frequently. We'll let their glassdoor comments decide that. Having said that, when I'm getting ready to give feedback to someone, I'll usually ask myself, if someone was giving this feedback to me, how would I want to hear this? If I was giving feedback to someone about their personal hygiene or their inability to collaborate with others or take responsibility, I'll ask myself, how would I want to hear this? And I find that when I roleplay that, that feedback to me, like you've kind of said, it typically allows me to deliver it in a way that's much better received and more influential.

Oh, that's a very good use also. And I love that idea of sort of role playing and practicing the feedback and then to your point, deciding in advance about how that is going to be, how that's going to be received by somebody else. And I think then that also everything we're talking about pre mortem and sort of just, you know, the practicing that you're talking about, the role playing, it all comes down to preparation. And I think preparation in some ways the unsung hero of a lot of these practices when you just land the people. Understandably so. Leaders are uncomfortable giving feedback and they have their own baggage. But having gotten feedback and whatnot, I understand that. So they put it off and they put it off and they put it off and either they sort of just like get triggered and they just say it and it comes out harsher than they realized, or they don't really make enough time and they haven't really practiced and then they're in the meeting and it's just uncomfortable and awkward and not making themselves clear. I think preparation is the key to all of that. I love your idea about role playing and really see, because your job as a leader to give is to give difficult feedback and still leave someone feeling inspired and supported and helped. And the way to do that is to really get your mouth around the words. By the way, that is why I also have scripts in my book to help you get your mouth around the words.

You heard it here today. First you're talking and listening to Alyssa Cohen, this co author of the next book on Feedback with Scott Miller, because so many authors only put a chapter about it in their entire leadership book. And Alyssa and I are writing a book, a whole book on how to receive and give feedback. Not really, but who knows? Call me later. Let's end this conversation about terminations. This is like feedback. It is a fundamental responsibility of leaders to act swiftly, act decisively, act humanely. Like you, I have served as a leader of people for three decades. I've had the honor of interviewing literally thousands of people, the privilege of hiring hundreds, and the responsibility of terminating dozens of people over my career. Terminations are difficult. No one enjoys them. There's no magic formula. But there are some things, to your point, around preparation and intent and humanity that can make them go easier on all. What have you learned and what advice would you give our listeners and viewers about terminations?

Yep. So terminations never get easy. Like, oh, it's so easy for you. To have this really difficult conversation with somebody and recognize that you are, you know, affecting their life. However, I would say this, it's important for you to know that you've done everything you can to get this person back on track. So when you shy away from the difficult conversation, when you shy away for the difficult, you know, feedback, for your own comfort, I'm sorry to say you're doing a disservice to the person that is facing you that ultimately you might have to fire. So one thing to say is that you really want to be clear in giving feedback along the way, as in, this is not working and I need you to change it and you know, those kinds of things. And then before you actually fire somebody, I think it's really important to have the conversation before the firing conversation, which is, listen, we've talked a number of times about this problem. You're not meeting your goals or your team is not aligned around you, or you're not coordinating with your peers or whatever it is. And I just want you to know it is a real problem and, and I need you to fix it. I need you to come back with me with a good action plan. So I know that you're in the swim of fixing it. If you are not able to fix it, I'm sorry to tell you we're going to have to part ways. That's the next conversation we're going to have to have. I don't want to have that conversation. So let's talk about how we can get you back on track. So once you do that, if it doesn't change you, then as you said, Scott, you need to and you will have that conversation with them about termination. And at least you know you've told them and they won't be surprised. P.S. people have a high capacity for self denial. So they might be surprised, but you know, there's no reason for them to be surprised because you were clear.

I told you she was going to give you practical advice. But I would tell the listeners and viewers, rewind this about 60 seconds because Alyssa just gave you a beautifully adaptable leadership tool there on how to clarify those expectations when you feel fear that a termination is perhaps an eventuality. I've often wrote Lyssa in my own decades as a leader that if someone is surprised when they get fired, shame on the leader because the leader has not done the preparation and the conversation. Not that that person had a target on their back. Most leaders have that right. There are sociopaths, there are very, very few. But most leaders want you to rise to the occasion. But you just gave us a great dialogue to use to integrate into our own vocabulary, to make sure that someone knows, you know, this is where this is headed and you should be sobering up on this and I'm happy to help you, but you have to do the work. This is your career, not mine. But our next conversation, if this doesn't change, is going to be a parting of ways. That way no one is surprised when you call them in and you say today is your last day. And they all act. Not all. Many of them act surprise and feign horror and shock. And it's up to you to make sure that that conversation is not a surprise. An unfortunate surprise to anyone. Alyssa Cohn, your book is From Startup to Grown Up. You can visit from startedtogrownup.com to learn more about you. Delighted you joined us today. I told you this was an interview that I knew was going to be enormously practical from a leadership toolkit point of view. The book has so many tools and tips and phrases like this that people can begin to make comfortable in their own style. Thank you for the gift that is your leadership journey. I love the line that I'm not an imposter syndrome. I don't have imposter syndrome. I'm just an imposter. And you've just described like every entrepreneur, every startup, everyone with a side hustle, right, trying to grow and improve themselves. Thank you for joining us today. Congrats on the major success of your book. It's now being published around the world. Delighted you joined us today On Leadership.

Thank you, Scott, so much for having me and for your insightful questions and for the great conversation. Thank you.

Gosh, the honor was ours. If you're not subscribing to On Leadership, you can visit franklincovey.com click on the onleadership button. You also, of course, can consume our podcast and all your favorite podcast channels. And we'll see you back here next week for a new interview on Leadership.