Ep. 014 - Alisa Cohn

I've heard you.

I've heard you mention that event, but I was like, man, if I was. If I was there, what would I learn?

What could a frog learn from Alyssa Cohen? You have to listen to find out. Alyssa Cohen is a globally recognized executive coach. She's an author From Startup to Grown Up. It's a great book. She's a podcaster. She's a contributor to Harvard Business Review. She's been on the Tim Ferriss podcast. I mean, I could go on and on and on, and it's just really special to have some time with her and talk about some of these issues.

That we like to discuss.

Enjoy.

Yeah. Well, hey, listen, again, thanks for joining us. Super excited to have you here. It really is. To say it's an honor is an understatement. But what do we really want to do or what I want to explore on this podcast is what are these things called core values to people? And then how has that impacted their lives and their businesses? So I've been fortunate enough to have some leaders and some entrepreneurs and even some other coaches, and it's really about the exploration of what that is because we hear so many negative things about business, and there's so much. You know, sometimes there's just too much negativity, and I think sometimes we forget about some of the great things. And. And I always go back to core values, so that's what I like to explore.

Great. Okay. When did you first get an interest in core values?

You know, I want to say it has to go back to probably when I started coaching. You know, when you go through coaching school, that's when you really have the awareness. But when I go back, it's always been sort of underneath, and I just didn't really identify and tap into it. There was things that drove me. And, you know, you get upset about things, you get happy about things, but you rarely dig deep enough to know. Ask the why. Why are these things happening? And I remember one of my first jobs out of college, which was Pricewaterhouse. I had a very difficult time because I was asked to do some things that I. I inherently knew were probably not the best thing to do. But I didn't know why I was getting headaches or why I wasn't sleeping or why it just didn't sit and sit with me. And it wasn't until much later I realized that was. It was a core value. That was. It was rubbing against something that felt dear and deep to me from sort of wherever that came from. And that awakening came much later. And I wonder if I had that awakening earlier in life, you know, But I've done things differently. So for me it's about that exploration. But thank you for that question.

You're welcome. Great. All right, well, I love it. Sounds great.

How about yourself? I mean, what, what do you think about Core Values? I mean, your book, by the way, From Startup to Grow up, absolutely amazing. And there's ton of things that are in there. You know, in fact, Core Values is like one of those things that once you see it, you can't not see it. So I'm reading your book and they're popping up everywhere. So where, where would the Core Values journey start for you?

So is this the podcast now?

Yeah, yeah.

Okay. We've already started.

We can, yeah, yeah, absolutely. I can cut out some of the earlier stuff anyway, but, you know.

Okay, great. I, I, Okay. So one of my first, I guess, opportunities, coaching or the first time I, you know, I became a coach and I tried to build my practice and the big kind of corporate break I got was at EMC and that they got by, bought by Dell like six, eight years ago or so. But it was a big company, Massachusetts, big public company. And I would teach in their leadership training. So I taught in their, what's called transition to manager and then directors programs. So I always had this, this program on value. Right. On values. It was one module on values. And we would do it. And I taught that class a lot, so I facilitated that class a lot. So we did over and over and over. And I remember at first feeling like, okay, now we're into the values thing. You know, I didn't, obviously I facilitated better than that, but I thought about, okay, now it's time for the values. And when we do the values, people would have some really interesting insights. And then came did it again, came time for the values. We did the values people would have some really interesting insights and they kind of taught me how important it was because they had really powerful insights about their values and really aha. Moments. And they also really began to get a deep feeling for how to use that in their leadership. And also they shared experiences where their leaders either were really leading by values or not leading by values. And it was this sort of practice and repetition of doing that over and over. I remember specifically that module. It got deeper and deeper and deeper for me every time we did it.

Had you, had you had any connection to that for yourself personally before that, or did it.

Not really. Not really. I, you know, as a co, you know what it's like when you get trained as a coach, you do the values thing. Other things were, in coaching, training or whatever were much more meaningful to me than values. I just, it just never really resonated with me. And then it did, by virtue, frankly, of doing this module over and over again. And then when I began to do it with them, you know, like they were doing their silent reflection to themselves. And I would do it with them and I would kind of really clarify what are my core values for me. And then there were times, especially as I would just say I got more successful and got more busy that it was easy to forget about the work. And it was just I had to go here and there and I had to get on this plane and do this and that. And then I found a lot of solace in my values. You know, it's like, I'm running late or I'm tired or I'm jet lagged or I gotta rush to this thing and go on the plane or whatever. And it's like, oh, this is a, this is a lot. It's too much. I don't want to. Why am I doing this? And actually, I kind of knew why I was doing it because one of my core value was, and the reason I became a coach was to make a difference. And I knew that that was why I wanted to do this over and over again and not get distracted by, oh, I gotta get on, I'm late and I'm doing this and I'm doing that. And then another value for me grew. You know, really I recognized over time was connectedness. The idea of feeling connected to other people, how significant that was. When I was at my best, I was connected to other people. And then another was like, excellence. Not just mailing something in, but really giving it your all and really going above and beyond. So those are some of the values that came out of me during that period. And definitely when you say I was taught through that, I sort of taught myself through that process.

Well, thank you for that. And when you said they came out, did you think they came out or you connected to.

Yeah, I connected to. Right. I mean, it's, I mean it's a question like, where do your values come from? And. Right. You know, are you born with them and then also do they change over time? Right. These are all the questions we explored actually in this, in this, this set of classes, in these modules. And I mean, there's no question that, you know, this stuff like emerges. You know, it's like, this is part of me and then I give it. Voice and it emerges, and then it definitely deepens the work that you do because you kind of. You make the connection between what you're doing and how it touches on your core values.

Yeah, I. I find that's the interesting part because I think sometimes people don't make that connection.

Right.

And they get driven by other things. And then there's, you know, there's that old Gallup survey. Right. The famous one. 70. On average, people are disassociated or disengaged. And.

Yeah.

I wonder what would happen if that number was flipped. Yeah. Right. What would. What would we look like that. To me. So when you talk about, like, making a difference, that really. And part of a pun, but that connected with me also.

Yeah.

So. Right. It's like that. Make that difference. If that number was just flipped, what would we look like then?

That's a really good way to think about it. Yeah.

Yeah. I just. I guess the expression for me is how do we do that? Or how do we understand if that's even something that is possible?

Yeah.

I don't know.

You know, I don't have an answer for that exactly. But I do know that I think that we don't give enough credence to the middle manager. We don't give enough, let's say, credence and then tools to managers to equip them to have the conversations with their people that light them up and help unlock them to do the best work of their lives. Yes.

Yes. I find there's a missing equation.

Right.

People have this leadership, and they want things to happen from this perspective, and they have goals and objectives. But I think the one piece of the equation that's usually missing is the person.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Because I. I almost feel. And you can tell me if. If I'm probably flying a kite here or drinking the Kool Aid, but I almost feel like those other things become enhanced once you. Once you sort of resonate with yourself. And I. That identification.

Yeah, I think that's right. And I. I think that's certainly the identification with yourself and being attuned to yourself and also just having time and space to reflect. All these things are very, very powerful. And, you know, they're very powerful. And I would say it's like a cluster of things because it's. You can talk about values, but there's also motivations and drivers. There's also just the overall context of someone cares about me. All of those things come together. And I think when those things come together, there is much more engagement. And when they don't come together. There's less engagement.

Yeah. People start with engagement and they go from there. I think they're missing that, that root piece. And I'll be honest with you, I love listening to your podcast because.

Thank you.

Inevitably, there's always a founder or two who goes directly back to core values.

Yeah. Yeah.

And unfortunately, I. I apologize by. Probably annoy your LinkedIn comments. I'm like, oh, my God. They. They were speaking to this. This is. This is.

We love your LinkedIn comments. More of that. More of that. We do not. We love them. We are never annoyed by comments.

How did you. How did you get connected with so many leaders to have this type of conversation? And do leaders appreciate when you sort of approach on a deeper level?

Yeah, well, that's what my podcast is really about. My podcast. Well, you mentioned my book, and I appreciate that. From Startup to Grownup. And I interviewed 14 founders on their own personal growth journeys from Startup to Grownup. And that was great and part of the book, and I loved it. And then it was over. So I was like, oh, no, it's over. But then I thought, I know, I'll invent podcasting, and I'll be able to have these conversations over and over, because I love to have deep conversations. The 14 founders I interviewed in my book and also one of my podcast, without exception, they say no one's ever asked me these kinds of questions before. And I really. These are great questions and like that. So they want to go deep. Or maybe they don't know they want to go deep. But, like, I try to create a lot of context and safe space for everyone to go deep, including on my podcast. And I think that it's grappling with the deep things in some ways that really gives founders life.

Yeah. Well, there's no doubt about that. And that that energy comes off the pages and it comes off the podcast for sure. And it amazes me that maybe we don't take that journey enough.

Yeah.

And I was speaking with a professor who is a guest also, and we talked about sort of what is the. What does the workforce look like currently? And then what does she see as she has students coming through? And she said that there is a lot of hope because the conversations and the things that they're really curious about and really want to engage with are much more attuned with what we would call core values and, you know, how we progress. So. So I thought that was super interesting. And yeah, especially from her perspective. She was like an ethics professor, and she does a lot of stuff with fraud and things of that nature. So her view on that, I thought was incredibly inspiring.

Yeah, I think that is great to hear. And I think that, you know, we all need to have more opportunities to step back and reflect.

Yeah, there's. There's no. There's no doubt about that.

Yeah.

So how do you. Is that something that you. You feel is top of mind when you. You start working with. Because you, you work with a lot of amazing startups and founders. Is that something that you start with initially or. Or how does that usually. How does the conversation come around core values?

You know, I don't ever start with that because I start with. I. Let me put it this way, sometimes I start with that, but only when it makes sense. I start with the business, the needs of the business, and I start with them, and I want to meet them where they are so they have a crisis or they don't. They don't know what they don't know, or something's going on. I really want to make sure that we have partnership before I bring up other topics. And values is one of the other topics that I bring up. But ultimately, we both know that when a company understands its core values, whether or not people agree with them, they ultimately are more engaged with the company when the company can be clear and consistent about its own core values. So that's an important, you know, sort of element of business success and certainly leadership and management. And then the second piece I would say is people begin to realize that their employees are not like them. Right. So the founders I work with, leaders I work with, it's like, oh, they're different. There's another person out there. There's another human being there. Oh, great. What's that human being made up of? You know, like, what are they made up of? And it's like, oh, values and motivations and drivers. So that's the context. Of values. And then, of course, they come up in the context of culture. Of culture. Like, what's the culture around here? Which is something I will often ask when I'm doing 360 feedback for the founders I work with. I will often ask the people I'm talking to, what's the culture like around here? And those kinds of questions also get at, you know, what are the values around here?

Yeah, for sure. I mean, I like to sort of. I don't want to say informally, but you end up informally almost doing like a culture audit.

Yes.

When you talk to some of these clients and because the values feed into that. Right. What are the Artifacts. And what are the stories around that that create that culture? Because ultimately, that's what people will fall back to if they can't. Right? And then, you know, as they say, in the lack of a story or in a vacuum, people create their own.

For sure.

If you set the tone right, it'll be amazing. There was one. Actually, there's a couple, but there was one specific. I remember I was doing a workshop in. In New York with a nursing. Nursing company. And it was. It was a tough engagement because we're trying to accomplish a couple things. And the CEO was very engaged in terms of the strategy and how we're doing it. And he said, hey, you know what? Let me introduce you when you come out to do the workshops. And I'm like, okay. And usually, you know, a lot of times you would give CEO or somebody some talking points they may want to hit. And he was like, no, no, no, let's just go in. I'll introduce you, we'll get going. I'm like, okay. And then sometimes it makes you nervous because you don't know. But I remember when he spoke, he literally hit on almost all of the core values that they articulate in this organization, which was like 100 years old. And I was flabbergasted because I didn't. I didn't tell him to do that. And then after, I think I saw him at lunch, and I. I said to him, I said, did you. Did you do that on purpose?

Yeah.

What are you talking about? I said in the introduction, I said, you. You really hit on a lot of the points that are. You can go right to the website. You can almost go down. And he's like, no, I just sort of talked about us. And unfortunately, I don't. I don't think there's enough of that. I mean, you can. You could literally hear him speak and then go right to what the organization was all about. It was very refreshing.

Impressive. That's very impressive. Definitely.

Yeah. But it's. It's nice to ask. It's nice to ask organizations, you know.

Yes, yes.

When I. When I work with a lot of directors and manager of that nature, I'll ask. We ask them, what are the core values of the organization? You know, I structure some questions in a certain way. It's very interesting. A lot of times they give me answers about their own, what they perceive core values and not the organizations.

Totally 100. Because there's not that there hasn't been that glue in that connective tissue to tie people's values together. And really. To articulate the company's core values.

Yeah. It's always interesting work when you do that. And I find that when that happens, there is a magic because they connect something in themselves and then they have sort of that core values congruence, which really frees them up to sort of work within the organization.

Yeah, definitely.

It's amazing work. So one thing I was curious about back in 2006. Oh, I know, right? Going way back when, back in 2006, if I was a frog on the pond that you were walking around with Dr. Marshall.

Yeah.

What would I have learned? That. That walk.

I've heard you.

I've heard you mention that event, but I was like, man, if I was. If I was there, what would I have learned?

It's funny you say that. In fact, it was. Are we Marshall. Dr. Marshall Goldsmith and I just had our 18th year anniversary. Wow. Last week. So it was April.

Good timing.

Good timing. It's an interesting question. First of all, you would have heard a lot of Marshall. You know, he's a talker. And I think you would have heard, you know, Marshall narrating his life story and his advice. Advice. It's a good book. Like advice to a young coach is, I would say, entertaining. So you would have heard a lot of laughter because Marshall laughs at his own jokes. And of course, I was also laughing at his jokes. And he talked a lot about his background and the two of us together talked a lot about kind of, I would say, our mutual philosophy. Now, I was young and a brand new coach. In many ways. I was. I wasn't brand new brand new, but I was new, still quite new. And I was young and I. The reason I sought out Marshall is because I knew that we shared a lot of philosophy. I saw myself in him. And so we talked a lot about, you know, the way he coaches and stakeholder feedback and also the need to take response, personal responsibility and, you know, all that kind of stuff. But what comes up for me is, I mean, I just remember Marshall kind of lecturing me on all these things in his, you know, really happy, buoyant, laughy way. And I was also thinking, oh, my God, I can't believe I'm walking around the pond with Dr. Marshall Goldsmith.

What do you. What do you think are some of the. The key takeaways for you? Eighteen years. You said 18 years. It's 18 years.

Yeah. It's 18 years. Yeah. You would keep takeaways from that from Doc. From Marshall, or from those eight from.

Well, what would have sprung out of that over the 18 years that you say, you know what that would have been, that's something pretty amazing that I experienced because, you know, I. I took that walk with him.

Well, first of all, in the middle of the walk, he said, what can I do to make your life better? Which I didn't know at the time was just like a martialism. Like, that's something he says. But I was like, whoa. So I didn't know quite what to say, but I said, well, I just want to spend more time together with you. Because he had talked about following Paul Hersey around. So I was like, I just want to spend more time with you and follow you around. And so something like that. And then we get back to his house, and I'm getting into my car. He's saying goodbye. I'm saying goodbye. I'm getting into my car. And I thought, alyssa, you need to step up right now. I know he's the big mentor, but you need to step up right now and say, what can I do to make your life better? So I said, marshall, what can I do to make your life better? And he said, well, there's an assignment. There's a. An engagement or something that you could work on with me. And I was like, you know, like, this is the moment, you know, And I know exactly what I said. I said, I can't say yes fast enough. Exactly what I said. And then he said, but it's in New York, because he thought that I lived in San Diego, which is where I spent time with him. There I was in San Diego. I had been wintering in San Diego.

I was gonna say, did you. Did you go specifically to talk to him, or were you already.

No, I went to San Diego because I realized that there was a place called San Diego, and it was winter, and I was like, what am I doing in Boston for the winter? This is crazy. I'm going to go to San Diego for the winter. So I did, and then I realized Marshall Goldsmith lives there. And so I thought, I'm going to find that guy. I'm finding him. And I networked and networked, and I couldn't find him. I just sent him an email, and I said, I'd love to spend time with you. And, you know, I said specifically, I'd love to be able to spend time with you, even if it's a very short period, even if it has to be scheduled far in advance. And he got back to me a week later and said, call this number and we can set it up. Oh, my God. So I Called that number. I set it up, and it was literally two days before I was going to leave San Diego. I was seeing. I did my walk with Marshall. I was seeing Marshall, and then I ran the La Jolla Half Marathon. And then the next day I was going to return home to Boston. And so he said to me, can you work on this thing with me? And I was like, yes. And then he said, but it's in New York. And I said, perfect. I actually live in Boston. He had no idea. So that was life changing. I got back to my place in San Diego and I knew my life has changed, but I did not know how. I did not know all the things that would happen. You know, I worked together with Marshall for, like, five years, shoulder to shoulder. I saw what Marshall, exactly what Marshall did in the coaching room. I got to know all these people around Marshall. I, you know, I feel like I matured a lot. And then here we are now 18 years later, and there was, you know, I'm sure, you know, about the 100 coaches where Marshall's kind of gathered the collection of the top coaches in the world as part of this, you know, group that he. That he's this year spearheaded. And one of the things that Marshall would do was Marshall would just send an email to all his friends to kind of say, come and do this. So he sent an email and said, my friend Aisha is doing a workshop, and come on Saturday, 9am Just come and do this. And I'm like, oh, my God. Saturday, 9am that's like the worst time ever. I work out in the morning. That's actually really challenging. Whatever. When Marshall says come, you come. I came. And in that workshop, Marshall had the insight to form the 100 coaches. Oh, wow. And I was at that workshop, one of the few at that workshop and have been on this journey with Marshall and the 100 coaches the entire time.

That's amazing.

Yeah, it is amazing. So those are just some of the ways my life has changed because of Marshall.

Wow. Well, I'm imagining it's not just your life that changed. I imagine you have quite an impact on those that you're serving as well.

Well, I hope that's true. I think that's true. Yes. I try for that to be true.

Well, I would say from my experience, you listening to your work and reading your work, it definitely has validated some of the things and the research that, you know, I bear out. And it's. It's inspiring. Right, because there's people that feel the same. Like, sometimes when you do this work? It gets a little lonely sometimes.

Yeah.

And you don't know if you're, you're hitting the right thing. It's like letters to a poet, you know. Right. You know, the first letter of the. You, you know, so it is inspiring that there are others out there that sort of have that connection and can move the, the pendulum forward. So we can flip that Gallup number.

Yes, yes, 100%. That's great.

I agree. Who are some of your heroes?

Well, certainly Marshall and I would say that I have a lot of heroes in, in the, in founders. You know, you could sort of say famous founders. Also the founders that I'm really privileged to coach and to serve and to see them put one foot after another, handle all the adversity, handle all the talk about lonely. Right. The lonely up and down journey of, you know, marching towards success. I mean, I, they're, they're totally inspiring and I just, I really, I definitely look up to them, into their ideals.

Wow. Thank you for sharing that. If there was one or two key takeaways you hope somebody would, that would be listening to this, would, would walk away with, what do you, what do you hope they might be?

Well, we talked a lot about, you know, clarifying your own values and taking time to reflect. And I say to everybody, be good. If you clarify your own values and take time to reflect, that would be really good. Yes. And I think everybody should, should really give that gift to themselves and to their people. If you manage any people. The second thing I would say is, you know, everybody is limited the most by one person, and that's the person that looks at you in the mirror. And so I would encourage every single person to continue to push past their perceived limitations and to recognize that they're the ones who can fuel their growth and their fire and their own inspiration. And then in doing so, you will inspire and support and help and make a difference for other people.

It is very easy to see why Marshall was willing to sort of talk to you, embrace you, and you have this journey for 18 years with him. So I can completely see that.

Thank you.

Thank you for sharing that. Your book, which I want to mention again, because I'll be honest with you, every single time you open it up, I'm flagging more pages and there's more interesting things. And the scripts in the back are really a great resource for people. So from startup to growing up, grow your leadership, to grow your business.

Yes.

And the associated podcast with it as well. If people wanted to reach out other than the book and the podcast, what would be great ways for them to sort of learn more about Alyssa and what you can provide?

Well, you. On my website, I have additional scripts. You mentioned the scripts in the back of the book. I have five additional scripts to help you have delicate conversations on my website and one to make your life better. And you can find them at alyssacon.com forward slash scripts. That's a L, I, S, a C, O, H N, no e's forward slash scripts. You can also come and comment on my content just like you do Thomas on my on LinkedIn. Please come and follow me on LinkedIn.

I will absolutely. I will put that information in the show notes. And yes, your content on LinkedIn is very engaging. I love the Friday questions. Those are always fun. So I do appreciate that and I would ask people to take a look at that if they're interested and comment because it is a lot of fun and a lot of value provided.

Oh, that's so great. Thank you.

Alyssa, I can't thank you enough for taking the time here. I really appreciate it. It means a lot to to me and I'm looking forward to moving forward in this journey and learning more about values and how that impacts others. And I thank you for taking the time to spend a little knowledge with me.

It was such a pleasure and thank you for having me.