Part 2 of 2: Alisa Cohn: When You Meet Yourself as The Hero

Foreign.

Welcome back to our delicious conversation with Alyssa Kohn. Alyssa was named as the number one startup coach in the world. She wrote a book called From Startup to Grown Up. She has a podcast called From Startup to Grown Up. She's named as the top startup coach by The World Thinkers 50, which is Marshall Goldsmith's Global Coaches Award. She's ranked number one by the Global gurus for three years in a row. Like I said, force of nature. She's doing all kinds of things, work with everybody. She's appeared on the BBC as an expert, Harvard Business Review, many others. In part one of the show, we were talking about, of course, startups, but really coaching startups and what it is that sort of gets in the way of all that and how oftentimes our ego can block us or our fear and being terrified can stop us. And Alyssa shared with us about what it was a little bit like growing up in that industry, carrying that itty bitty committee from inside of your own head and how to face that. And we talked in part one a lot about your role in maybe starting a company. Maybe you are the startup, but maybe you're a CEO and maybe you're a leader, and maybe you're a conscious leader. And there's these distinctions between these pieces. And really taking a look at that now as we get into the second part, and we talked about being an imposter and feeling like that imposter. And we talked a lot with Alyssa about how her own coaching has kind of evolved. You've been doing this for 20 years. I want to sort of start there because I think that one of the things I see a lot of times in my own work with leaders is the mentality, even if it's not spoken of, this is the way I do it, or this is the way we do it. And to me, you might as well just get out the shotgun and blow your own foot off. But there's not an evolution. Talk to us about your evolution as a coach over the last 20 years.

Sure. Well, first of all, I have to agree 100% with you, like, this is the way I do it. People, like with all the time managers will say, this is my management style. Well, have you checked in with your people to see if your management style is working for them? Because actually, they're the consumers of your management style. I think it's so important to focus on that. I have a certain personality. I've always been a seeker, and I'm very interested and curious about other people and where they're coming from. As I've matured as a coach and I've gotten more experience, I have to acknowledge that there are two things that have changed. First of all, I've learned a lot more. I've seen this movie over and over again, so I can kind of predict what's going to happen. And the second thing is I've just become more direct. So all my clients would say that I'm certainly a loving, supportive ally and that also I'm very direct. You always know what I think and I think that's really important because I think coaching gets like a bad rap because it sort of turns into, well, what do you think you should do? And tell me more about that. And I think what's really important, especially for startups, is they haven't done this before and sometimes they're looking for answers. I think it's really, really important in coaching to ask questions and really evoke and catalyze what they already know. But at some point they're going to get stuck. And I think it's incumbent upon me, as an experienced coach who's seen this movie before, to be able to say, here's what I see and here's what I think.

I'll tell you this. I think we talked about this even when we spoke months and months ago about you coming on the show, was that generally speaking, I don't have coaches on the show. And the reason for that is because it's pretty much much of a muchness. And I know because of our conversation and I know because of my own style and what we talked about it. Talk to us about what you see. And this is important because again, we have a lot of people who are listening to this show who are in executive positions. As we talked about one, maybe thinking about getting a coach. They know sure as hell that they should have one. But then it comes down to like, which dentist do I go to, which coach do I work with? Right. Who do I go to for a facelift? Because I don't. Like I've been in a wind tunnel versus looking natural. It's the same thing with coaching. I think it's very easy to go down a wrong path. And so I'm going to put you in a very awkward position and I apologize kind of. And that is what, from your point of view, is the distinction between a good coach and a bad coach. When it comes to being an executive.

Coach, I don't think that's awkward at all. I talk about this all the time and I think it's a good question. So first of all, an executive coach is someone who's like me, who's helping you in a career context, that's really important. An executive really connotes that you've worked with leaders before. So what distinguishes a great coach from a bad coach is just an understanding of in the executive world, like the world of work, very often a bad coach will be naive. And naive things are, you should be authentic and you should trust your employees, just trust them. And that may be true that you should trust your employees, but actually you've really got to see, like, are you doing all the systems you need to setting expectations, being clear and rigorous about measuring them, having important conversations that many people shy away from? And all of that has to be in place before you just trust your employees. Because if you just trust your employees, they're going down the wrong path. Bad things are going to happen, I promise you. The second is around this notion of being authentic. So, you know, in my book From Startup to Grown Up, I talk a lot about bringing your humanity because people want to be able to connect to your humanity. But authenticity is such an overused term and it's this kind of platitude that people like to throw around. And I think it means, like, be vulnerable in a certain kind of way. It means let your people see you have emotion, but really you as the leader have to recognize that you're under surveillance every minute of every day. And you want to showcase enough humanity, people can connect to you, but not enough vulnerability or uncertainty so that people lose confidence in you as a challenging, challenging needle to thread. And I think a bad coach will put you on the wrong side of that needle. Those are some examples of what a bad coach will do. Another bad coach move is to only tell you what you should do and explain it kind of over talk as opposed to really be engaging in a partnership to catalyze and help remind you of what you already know. So it's the balance of that that I think brings mastery into coaching.

They become like your cheering squad. If you're looking for that in a coach, don't hire me or Alyssa because we're going to call you out in order to make you better. That's important. But ultimately it is you who is going to have to live with the consequence. And to address the authenticity thing, it was everywhere on my website. I asked my web person, take it off and they go, why? I said, because it's become ubiquitous, it's everywhere and it doesn't mean shit. This is an authentic water bottle stroke. What does it mean? It doesn't mean anything. And so in this generic term of authenticity or generic term of vulnerability, and as you just mentioned, for leaders, you have to understand, as you just so beautifully point out, this is a tightrope. You have to show your humanity, but you can't lose your authority. And what does that mean? It means discernment. You must be discerning. Being vulnerable is not about emotionally vomiting on people. Nobody wants that. And your integrity and your authority are going to go out of the window pretty damn fast if you're blubbering all the time as opposed to really sharing. Hey, this is a struggle for me and I don't know what to do here. Can you assist me? Because I know my expertise is X and yours is Y and I really value that and I want us to do better. Oh, okay. Now I'm in. There's a humanity. And so I really thank you for bringing that forward because I think that a lot of coaches are afraid to bring that forward. There's a piece here that I think is really interesting, and that is I been a bodybuilder for 40 odd years. I know you're a powerlifter and you train that way. If you go on YouTube, you can still find them and it's called Sweaty Leadership Tips from Dov Barron. Most of them I took down because they were literally filmed in the gym while I was all sweaty and because I just find it to be such a powerful, powerful metaphor. Resist training is such a powerful metaphor. Talk to us about that metaphor for you as somebody who does powerlift.

Yeah, I could talk about this all day. So yes, yes, yes. One thing I want to say is that I grew up as an out of shape, overweight kid, period. As I became a young adult, I realized that I was not stuck with that forever. So I began the challenging, let's say, journey into fitness. And then I became a runner. And I was a sort of a mean, mean runner in the sense I hated running. Until a moment came. I remember the moment vividly. I just was in the middle of the run. I hated it. I hated it. And I just fell in love with running. I got that runner's high they always talk about. And ever since then, I've loved running. And I then developed osteoarthritis in my right knee because I was over training. And when you say O, what I said was Bo bawling my eyes out in the cab on the way home from the MRI doctor who told me that I had to give him back my running shoes. And I thought I'M too young. But I also thought you have been over training. You are not balanced. So the first metaphor is about how do you have to balance your fitness and balance your body, otherwise you get hurt. That's the same is true for leadership. It's gotta be the right amount of zooming in and the right amount of zooming out. It's gotta be the right amount of authority and the right amount of letting them go. And it changes based on the moment. And if you don't do it right, someone's gonna get hurt. So that's kind of thing one. Thing two is that my second doctor said, well, not so fast about giving up running. If you get strong, then you'll be able to run again. I thought, okay, thank you. So I hired a coach. Coaches are good. And then between him and another coach who I eventually hired, they taught me all the mechanics of weightlifting, free weights and barbell training and kettlebell training. Not the machines and not the little pink weights the girls use, little 2 pound weights or whatever, serious heavy weights. And for my first year of training in that way, I kind of want to say, and I'm sorry, Toby. My first coach, I yelled at him for the first year. It was terrible. I hated it. I thought we were doing it wrong. I thought he was doing it wrong. I thought I was doing it wrong. It was brand new. I couldn't do it. Too heavy, too much. And it really kind of pushed me. And so I just want to say that I know what it's like to feel overwhelmed, let's put it that way. So that's the way it is. But then over time, I grew. And not only did my muscles grow, obviously, and I got stronger, obviously, but I learned the muscle mechanics. I learned to self correct. I learned that I could push through discomfort. I learned the difference between pain and discomfort. And also I learned that I could grow my capacity. So there's something called the cns, the central nervous system that allows you to lift heavier weights, but I think it also allows you as a leader to tolerate more uncertainty, more difficulty, more challenge. And when you develop the capacity to tolerate more, you're able to execute more, especially under crisis.

Just tuned in, go back and listen to that piece again. This is so important. You actually addressed several things in there, Elizabeth, that I want to touch on, if that's okay. And that's. Yeah, you had to push yourself and grow. But going back, I think that oftentimes we, we all get an identity. We get it in our childhood, whatever it is. And if it's the little overweight girl who's not in shape, that's an identity. And the number one addiction, from neuroscience point of view, the number one addiction of all human beings is identity. You have a neurochemical cascade that is released from your brain that tells you who you are, and you keep resetting that over and over again. Neurons that fire together, wire together and you go, okay, this is who I am. So confronting that identity is massive for anybody. Doesn't matter what you are. And oftentimes, particularly for those of us who are driven and those of us who were certainly seekers and are hungry, we'll overdo it. I know I did. When I box, my body is not in any way, shape or form. Pre bodybuilding, not in any way, shape or form built for running. There's all kinds of things I can do for cardio, but not running. But I started out as a boxer and I ran 10k a day and I hated it. Every step. I never got to the place you got to. I hated it.

But.

But I did it because I wanted to box. And what did I do? I damaged my ankles, I damaged my knees, and I damaged my lower back in the process because I wasn't getting coached for running as you were smart enough to do. I think we overdo it to try and overcompensate. That's that imposter syndrome thing again. I think that the most important thing is this willingness to confront the identity. And what does it take for me to say, okay, I'm a entrepreneur, I do entrepreneurial things and I make about 100 grand a year now I want to be a founder. Is that the same thing? Well, kind of, but it isn't. It's kind of, but it isn't. What's coaching process. I need to go from entrepreneur to founder who is going to take something to the next level that's a bigger step entirely. And, and here's the thing that we all, me included, have to get. You cannot get there alone. My term is a fish. Cannot describe water. You're in the water, you're swimming around in your own shit and you cannot see the stuff you're swimming around in. And what's more is you're used to it. Once you're used to it, it's like, well, this is just the way it is. It's not. That's why that coaching be so important. And then is the pushing through to build the muscle to understand whether that's a mental muscle, a psychological muscle, or in your case, you talked about a physical muscle and then Comes the next piece. That's the piece I want to go to with you, which is can you remember your first deadlift? The first time Toby or whoever it was got you to deadlift?

No, it didn't feel good. But what I do remember is you know what a Turkish get up is? So a Turkish get up is an activity you do with a kettlebell and you lying on the floor and with your hand up and you're holding a weight in your hand and you stand up without any other help and then you come back down. It's hard. It's hard and you have to learn the choreography of it. But you're also, you're lifting a weight in your hand. Right? Just to say that. So Toby, and now my current coach Tom, but certainly poor Toby, he got all the brunt of me. He taught me the Turkish get up with a sneaker in my hand. And we get up and get down. I tried, I'm like terrible at it. And I said, Toby, do we really have to do this? Like, is this really important? Do we really have to do this? And I'm like resisting and I'm not going to do it. So that's the thing I remember in terms of what felt bad and life goes on. And I now do that same Turkish getups with a 45 pound kettlebell.

For a guy like me who can leg press 1100 pounds, that, that would be hard. Turkeys get up with a 45 pound dumbbell. I don't know if I could do that. So I want you to get these ladies telling you, hu, that is not easy.

Yeah. And, and back to the point about the deadlift. As we went up the weight ladder and the deadlift, I will say your point of identity is so important. I certainly had identity about a little girl from a small town and also an out of shape overweight girl. And as I went through the process of learning the deadlift, the moment for me was when my coach Tom said, we'll get you to 200. And I was like, you gotta be crazy. That's, that's not happening. And then I met a woman who looked just like me. She was just like me. She wasn't really skinny, she wasn't fat, she was normal, she wasn't muscle bound, whatever. Turned out she was a powerlifter and it turned out she was doing a 300 pound deadlift. I was like, oh, if she can do it, maybe I can do it. And that was the big unlock that I saw someone like me who could do something like that. And that's what happened when I got to from 2 to 200 and ultimate. My most recent personal best deadlift, which I do every year on my birthday, was 245 pounds.

This is just a wonderful metaphor for wherever it is, as you listen to wherever it is in this, that you look at something and you go, it's impossible. Number one, you need a coach to help you to build the muscle, but you also need someone who looks like you and that maybe is not physiologically, but looks like you, meaning they came from where you came from in some way, shape or form, and they're outperforming what you perceive as possible. I just give a simple clue. So March 2024, I'll be speaking at the brain mapping conference and it's neuroscience. I do not have a PhD in neuroscience, but I'm a neuroscientist. I'm speaking there in the advanced psychiatry section. When I told this section, I'm laughing, I'm like, don't fit here. It doesn't matter. It matters what I can bring here. And one of the reasons I'm saying it is for you to listen to this, not for any, any bragging rights whatsoever. But I'm a kid who was born in a ghetto, who had a learning disability at school as well as adhd, dyslexia and a bunch of other things, who until I was 26 years old was completely convinced I was thick. English term for not very bright. And I speak to neuroscientists who listen to me. I speak to doctors who listen to me. I speak to people who are doing things that they went to school for 20 years for, who take guidance from me. Who are my clients who take guidance from me. I don't tell you that for bragging rights. I tell you because there's some part of you that going, I'm a out of shape girl who can't lift a weight and now does 2:45 on her birthday. Fantastic. It's a great reminder for all of us that the limitations are there and they are real. People say they're not real. Of course they're real. They're absolutely real until someone shows you how to break them. They're 1% rock solid real until somebody shows you how to break them. And you can't do that without bloody good coach. Or in terms of Tiger woods, many coach.

That's so true. That's true. Dove, let me tell you a quick story about one of my clients, to your point, about identity as well. So my client done a fantastic job of raising a Lot of money. He'd raised like $70 million. He'd built this company, they were all moving forward and he needed to recruit top talent, senior talent, senior executives. And for whatever reason, this charismatic, charming, brilliant, energetic founder couldn't get the right people on his team. So I kept asking, what's going on with that? What's going on that? And he kept giving me his excuses. But then we really got in touch with what he was telling himself, his identity. And his identity was, I'm just playing around here. I don't want to bring these real people with these real jobs into my company, take them away from their safe jobs, their real jobs to join this startup, like what's going to happen here? And that's what was in his way for recruiting the top talent and the senior executives that he really needed. So that was identity and that was the voice he was telling right back to imposter syndrome. And it was our coaching process, my ability to help him as a coach to first of all identify that, work around it and as I said before, inside out and outside in, deal with it on the inside, but then change your behavior with these senior talent you're trying to hire in order to then be able to get them to join the company. And that took a lot of work. And that's what coaching can do for everybody.

The greatest vulnerability is the vulnerability with yourself, vulnerability to confront the parts of yourself you don't want to look at, that's where it all transforms. That's where everything can happen. So I love that. When you've been in this world, there's a lot of talk about unicorn. As a coach who's worked with many of these outstanding founders, do you think that there is a psychology to the kind of founder who builds unicorns?

Absolutely. If you can see it, you can be it. The idea that they first have to really see themselves as the kind of founder who can build that unicorn. And so that's the identity part. And then you've got to build for that, which means that you've got to bring in people and systems at the right time and not just let things go willy nilly. When you have product market fit and you're ready to scale, you need to be able to understand yourself and understand your own personal leadership sort of energy to help people, inspire them to reach a very big goal, which again, most people don't reach, most companies don't reach. So it's really an internal experience as well as like really being open to learning the mechanics of what it will take to build A unicorn. What is the leadership structure, the company structure?

I find it interesting and I want to come to this with you because you would understand it better than most, which is that when people talk about unicorns, of course they talk about people like Steve Jobs, they talk about people like Bezos, et cetera, et cetera, and even Elon Musk. And these are my judgment, entirely my judgment. Extremely flawed human beings. They've got some serious shit to deal with. Jobs look like a Buddhist at the end, but certainly didn't behave like a Buddhist in the way he treated his people. Bezos, anybody who, you know inside of Amazon, I know a lot of people who are very high up in that organization. It's a very old school hierarchical. Level ones don't talk to level threes, level fours don't talk to level six, even Elon Musk and his situation. And as a result, I think that a lot of people who become founders think they've got to become that kind of a holeness in order to be a starter. Talk to us a bit about how you deal with that because I'm sure you more than me bump into that a lot because it's your.

That is such a misguided thought for founders, like, I've got to be like that. Or they justify it like, well, Steve Jobs was like that. Just honestly, Steve Jobs didn't want a million. I would just say if you really know for sure that you're Steve Jobs, go for it. But most likely you're not just to say that also, ultimately you're not trying to mimic somebody else, you're trying to get something specific done. And what you're trying to do is to build a consequential company that stands the test of time and that ultimately makes its dent in the world that you want to make. And yeah, of course you want to then also make a lot of money and for yourself and your employees along the way and being able to sort of have the satisfaction of success. So the best thing to do is to deal with your current reality on the ground, your current product, service, your current company, the needs of what people need right now. And the truth is that like your willingness to do the work, to figure that out, adjust your management style, adapt to the current reality, accept the current reality and adapt to it is much more important than you're kind of lionizing some sort of Elon Musk character. And you could also say, I would say probably if Steve Jobs are alive even now with wisdom, he probably would say that he was successful despite his personality, quirks not because of them.

If you could go back in time and you could meet that little overweight girl in that small town so she gets to know who you are today, what would she say to you? Because oftentimes the question's the other way around. What would she say about you?

Um, I think she would say, you're my hero.

The reason I love that question is, what advice would you give? None, because it got me here. But the other way around is I always want people to realize that you are the hero to that kid. I had a nephew who came to visit me when he was nine. And he came to visit me. He was nine. And I had. I was completely broke because I'd fallen off the mountain. I got smashed to pieces, and I was in terrible emotional and financial shape. And he came from my hometown. He lived in a better place, but just outside of the ghetto that I was born in. And he said to me, uncle Dove, what's it like to be a millionaire? And I was on the bones of my ass financially. And it made me realize that I might be giving myself grief for not being where I think I should be, but my little boy self would be extremely proud. And I'm so glad to hear you recognize that, that your little girl would see you as a hero who she's seeing leading massive leaders who are doing extraordinary things, standing on stages, speaking to thousands of people, writing for the best outlets, and deadlifting to 45 on a birthday. I'm with your little girl. I'm applauding you and saying you're a hero. Please tell our audience as we finish up here where they can find out more about you, about your book, how to track you on social. However.

Well, come to my website and I have a gift for you, which is five scripts to help you with delicate conversations and one to make your life better. That's alyssacon.com forward slash scripts. A L I S A c o h n.com forward slash scripts. You can go find my book where all books are sold. Amazon and it's called From Startup to Grownup. I also started a podcast where I interview founders about their personal growth journeys and also other leaders about their personal growth journeys. On the journey from startup to grownup. Come say hi on Instagram or LinkedIn @Alyssa Cohn and all the socials.

Again, Alyssa, thank you so much for being with us. I appreciate it. I know you're a busy lady. I really appreciate you taking the time to be with us. I hope you'll stay with us to the end and for you to listen. And remember, those who control the meaning for the tribe also control the movement of the tribe leaders committed to positively shaping the political and business landscape. No, they've got to tap into what drives human behavior, and that comes from the emotional source code. You can tap into the emotional source code of the individuals or of your organization. I'm Dov Barron. I show businesses, leaders and teams how to harness their emotional source code to move their tribe. Because unified, actualized meaning is the single monolithic difference between mediocrity and greatness for all individuals and companies. Remember, we need your help in staying relevant. So please do us a favor. Wherever you tune into your podcast from, go over there, rate, review and share the show with everybody you know. We really appreciate it. And if you are a regular listener, big thank you to you for making us so popular and keep sharing the show till next time. Stay curious, my friends. Stay curious about that internal monologue that says maybe you're not really that and how you might actually be a hero to your younger self. And the only way to keep being a hero is to get the help you need. So stay curious, stay hungry, and get the help that you need. I'm Dov Barron. I'm here to assist you tapping into your deepest meaning to reach that next level of clarity, focus, purpose and profit in your business, in your life, and your leadership impact. And I am out.