*Let’s Talk Sustainable Business* S7E2 - How Should Businesses Frame Sustainability Ambitions?

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Hi, my name is Barbara Mendez George, and I'm a sustainability communications expert based in Brussels, Belgium. It's a pleasure to welcome you to this edition of Let's Talk Sustainable Business, a series brought to you by the Conference Board. This is the second installment of our two-part conversation with journalist and writer Philippa Nuttall. Editor of Sustainable Views at the Financial Times. If you haven't listened to part 1 yet, please do go back into our catalog to listen to it first. Welcome back, Philippa. Thank you. Thanks for being here. So in part 1, we talked about how reporting on sustainability has changed over the years, the advice that you'd give to companies writing to you about sustainability or climate change. In part 2, I'd really love to talk to you a bit more about policy, about social media, and again, a little bit more into the current global context, which we did touch upon in part one, but it's arguably tumultuous times at the moment. We're recording this in April 2025. Certain political leaders' rhetoric is denigrating sustainability-related topics such as DE&I in the US and even in Europe, women's rights. So for example, in the Netherlands, the government wants to make significant cuts to development cooperation and eliminate support for women's rights and gender equality. So it's been interesting and of course depressing to see some companies and governments use moments like the election of Donald Trump to backslide on anything related to DE&I, sustainability, etc. What are your thoughts, or would you have any advice for companies less sure on how to position themselves on these topics at the moment? In part one, you mentioned that there's a little bit of greenwashing going on and maybe companies are doing a bit more behind the scenes. Do you think that may be wise? Do you think that companies actually maybe need to stand up more than ever. What's your advice at the moment?

I mean, I'm not sure I'm the right person to give advice as a journalist to how companies should be—

I think so—

positioning themselves. But I mean, my, my personal opinion, and from what I see, um, is that companies should be standing up. I mean, policymakers, especially in the EU, um, or the UK, you know, they've been elected by, you know, people, and a lot of the, the the parties, especially on the right, that are pushing back more against sustainability stand up and say they're doing it in the name of business. Often this is a business burden, that we can't do this because it will cost too much, that EU companies or UK companies in particular will be less sustainable. And, you know, Donald Trump has made the same arguments in the US. I think this is very much living in a world which no longer exists, where we're pretending that climate change does not exist, that nature degradation doesn't exist, where solution doesn't exist. And we can see from numerous reports— many of these reports are not coming from the civil society sector, they're coming from insurers, they're coming from financial— exactly, financial organizations, Big Four consultancies— showing that climate change, more extreme weather events, nature degradation, pollution are massive costs in terms of the bottom line of companies and the global economy. And I mean, there was a report came out yesterday or by the, a recent report by the Cambridge Institute for Sustainability, which made this sustainability leadership, sorry, that made this argument very clearly that if sustainability is a cost, if it's just a box-ticking exercise, so companies are just paying somebody to literally, you know, go through and report, but there's nothing actually changing. But, you know, they argue that if you really invest in sustainability, change business practices, you're then at the forefront, you're a leader, and then you can, you know, it becomes synonymous in many ways with competitiveness. And I think, you know, this is the future we can have for years now where we have Donald Trump in the White House, where people push back. But ultimately, climate change is not going anywhere. Copernicus is coming out. You know, every report shows that the world has never been hotter, that extreme weather events are getting worse. And so I think, you know, companies, and we can see from many companies as well, that are actually doubling down on sustainability because they realize in terms of their future, their resilience, and their competitiveness that they, they need to be prepared for, for extreme weather events, but also that it's their kind of responsibility for the future of business as much as anything to actually take action and, and to change certain practices. So yeah, you know, if I can give advice, I think it's standing up and really for companies to say, you know, these decisions are not being taken in my name, that this isn't good for business. Ignoring climate change or pollution or other issues is not ultimately going to help businesses or the global economy.

I couldn't agree more. I mean, I, you've been working in this area longer than I have. I feel like we're in 2009 again at the moment where, because there's been a, you know, that context was financial crisis. Climate crisis wasn't at the forefront as much. It felt, especially in the West, I would say something that feels far away. But when I started working in sustainability, it was seen as it's an extra that you have to pay money for. And it's almost like you say, if competitiveness is taken out of it. I think I've mentioned before that in my first job in 2010, I got asked by colleagues if I was greenwashing for the organization that I was working for. I'm like, well, I'm trying to do the exact opposite, guys. And it just feels crazy to me, to be honest, that competitiveness is so divorced from the context, as you say. And I remember when I first came to Brussels in 2013, I went to one of the first panel discussions where someone mentioned the circular economy and was laughed at by the audience. And that, you know, look where we are now and how much it seems. So I do think I would agree that competitiveness is misused as an excuse when actually, if you're really considering sustainability as a kind of resilience, or what I don't always like this term, but what I've started using more actually, or advising my clients to do, was future-proofing. You know, if a climate event means that there is more flooding, you're not going to be able to do as much business as usual. So if you invest more in preventing flooding, then you are future-proofing your business model. And I think that's definitely a narrative that I think people will understand, and I hope more companies take on board. That's my personal opinion, and we're not here to interview me. Going back to policy, so, you know, you mentioned that you're closely following policies in Brussels, US, UK, elsewhere. How do you feel they've evolved over the last decade? Again, you touched upon the fact that von der Leyen's first term is very different to now. But what else do you have to add to that? And what about other contexts outside of Europe, maybe?

I mean, I think in general, as we started off the conversation when you said, how have things changed in the 20 years I've been a journalist, there's been a massive change. All these issues are essentially taken for granted and accepted as policies. So there may be a talk that we're going to push back on this, we're going to slow down on this, we'll move a target here and there. But ultimately, you know, climate action, the move to renewables are not just sustainable policies, but they also make economic and business sense. You know, solar power is the cheapest form of power. So is anybody going to suddenly open a new coal plant Donald Trump can talk about clean coal, but, you know, everybody knows clean coal does not exist. So ultimately, and we can see even in the US, you know, the red states— Texas, for example, is a massive state that's based, you know, renewables now is not going to disappear even if he says he wants to dismantle wind turbines because there has been too much money invested, companies support it. A big issue that came out of the Draghi report on competitiveness, then, that comes out constantly is that the price of energy, the price of electricity, needs to come down if we're going to have competitiveness. And ultimately it will be renewables, as most reports show, that is going to enable this, not, you know, volatile fossil fuel markets. I think for the EU, Russia's invasion of Ukraine was a very real— brought that to the fore, you know, very strongly. So when we talk about sustainability, you know, it is now embedded to a certain degree in all companies in the global economy, in all policies and regulation. Now, how fast change happens, whether the investment that we need is there or not. I think those are the questions that could now change, and money could be moved elsewhere if it's not seen as the same priority it was. But ultimately, you know, nobody's going to totally get rid of it. Donald Trump is trying to get rid of it at a federal level, but still, we also need to look in the US that a lot of legislation is state level. Um, I think, I mean, when I speak to people in the US, or we speak to people in the US as a team at Sustainable Views, There is still, as in the first Trump term, this kind of restating that mayors, local authorities will stand up and continue to move forward with sustainability, with climate action. My personal feeling is that doesn't feel as strong as it was under the first Trump term, but I think there's still that movement there. So I think we have to be very careful when we say, you know, exactly what is changing and really look behind those headlines and kind of look at what companies are actually doing rather than what they, you know, rather than just if words disappear, does that mean they've actually stopped doing it or they're just being quieter about it and it's being done in a different way? And I think, you know, some targets that were set by companies were extremely ambitious and, you know, they may well not be met. And perhaps there's also a bit of a, you know, a reality check that's now happening in terms of reducing emissions. The first few years it was the low-hanging fruit. It was quite easy to do and it gets more difficult. And therefore step 3. And then exactly, exactly.

Yeah. And I think you've kind of reminded me of the fact that I think a lot of people that we forget in the conversation, firstly, is investors, whether sustainably related or not, because yeah, why are you going to invest in something that is going to cause more issues? You know, that's it. It just doesn't make good business sense. And I haven't followed the debate recently, but you know, I feel like for many years the debate was fossil fuel subsidies are so high, and one way to save money and be able to invest in cost-competitive lower-cost renewable energy is to change that. I still think that's not a topic that's discussed enough in the mainstream. So yeah, so relatedly, what role do you, well, what role do you feel businesses should play maybe when engaging with or positioning themselves alongside policymakers? Because, you know, again, there are kind of more sustainability leaders, more passive people, and you know, you see every now and again where companies will get ahead of policymakers and say, well, no, actually we want we need this legislation to happen because this is what we want to do, but we're not going to be able to get there without legislation. So yeah, what advice would you give to any kind of business looking to position themselves?

I mean, I think from a journalistic point of view, it's calling on businesses as policymakers and everybody else to engage, to answer questions, to speak to the press, because being silent isn't helpful because your voice isn't part of the discussion. So if you want your voice to be part of the discussion and you have strong feelings on this in either way, and then, you know, to stand out and speak, because otherwise it is the loudest voices like the Trump administration that we hear pushing back, and we don't hear those progressive voices or those voices of business which are still moving forward with sustainability and putting in place the policies that are needed and would like policymakers to stick to their targets. So I mean, we have seen many businesses come out and call, for example, for the sustainable finance, you know, regulations, the CSRD, the CSDDD, etc., the taxonomy in the EU to remain, or to perhaps a certain number of technical changes but not to be weakened. Um, and so I think that's it, is just to encourage more businesses so it's not the usual suspects. We often hear from the same progressive businesses all the time. It would be great as a journalist if you had a, you know, there were more businesses, business leaders who were willing to, to speak out and, and say what they want or what they think needs to happen.

Well, there's your call, businesses. Please get in touch with Philippa. Changing topics, I'd like to talk to you a little bit about social media because I feel it obviously plays a huge role in consuming and disseminating news these days. And as someone working for legacy media, how do you feel about this evolving landscape and how do you think businesses should engage with social media and video to reach the media, but also maybe in a more general sense?

Yeah. So first thing on this term legacy media, I feel this is a term that we've potentially been given by Trump or people who are not in favour of the media. So I'm not sure that I subscribe to saying that we are legacy media. I don't really know what it means in the sense that no media is just sitting there and publishing some kind of paper, Dickensian sort of with a quill and an ivory tower. Exactly. So I think the media landscape has changed massively and it's extremely difficult for for the press to make money in an era whereby advertising has essentially disappeared. Many people believe that the written word in any form is all equal, that specialists or experts are not needed because they can just ask their mate on Instagram what they're saying or wherever else, TikTok. And so I think media has evolved massively. And this term legacy media, I don't really think means anything because it has evolved. Everybody's now on websites, everybody's reacting constantly in terms of businesses and social media. So, yeah, I mean, the media is obviously on social media. I think for me, Twitter has been— the loss of Twitter essentially has been a big loss as a journalist because it was a great place where there were discussions, sensible, informed discussions between different audiences, different groups of people about various issues. I think that debate now has moved to LinkedIn. I mean, I noticed a few comments on LinkedIn saying, oh God, LinkedIn is so boring. But I actually, as a journalist, think it's really useful. And lots of people seem to have moved their discussions there. People get in touch through LinkedIn. So that's great and very helpful. And I think there is a good discussion there, at least around EU policymaking. And I think for companies in terms of social media and video, it's definitely useful to see engagement, to see companies reacting through potentially LinkedIn or other places. And then in terms of video, do you mean video in terms of them contacting journalists or how they—

I mean more kind of using video to get their messages across or making videos to journalists as an alternative or as an addition to a press release or something like that.

So I'm quite old. Somebody sending me a video is probably not going to land because that's not how I consume I'm not on other social media platforms, and as my children will tell you, that's not how I consume my media. I just think they're what, you know, but I understand for different audiences that can be important. I think it's definitely key for all of us these days to have a range of tools and platforms that we use to communicate with different audiences. I think video is also interesting for businesses. I was on a panel recently for a solar power event, And there the idea of pushback or propaganda lies being told against the industry, this idea that, you know, if you have a solar panel, it's going to blow up and set your cows on fire if it's in a field or anything else. And I think then, yeah, these videos are really important from businesses, from business organizations to get out the truth, the reality, to show what's actually happening and to sort of fight fire with fire to a certain degree. So there's definitely a space. But for me as a journalist, I'm probably not really going to start watching videos.

Yeah, I find it tricky because I feel like every time I go and look at the impact of video, especially on kind of how many people prefer to consume video versus text, like it just does seem very overwhelming, especially on social media like LinkedIn. But I personally, I'm much more of a text person. I also very much feel the loss of Twitter. And I think with LinkedIn, it's a very interesting one because I think LinkedIn is now having to become the space for everything. Previously, it was just like a space where you shared your business updates and now it's kind of, but also a space for interacting with the media, but also a space where you might share personal things that only vaguely interact with the stuff. So I think maybe you need to make LinkedIn what you want it to be if you're a business. I think it's normal that for businesses it's very kind of broadcasty, right? They're just going to use it to kind of put out news and that's the end of it. But what you're saying is, you know, actually it is a space for discussion and maybe businesses should invest more time and strategize a bit more to engage with other audiences that aren't just the people who like their company page, for example.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

To finish off this part, I wanted to ask you if you had one final piece of advice to share with companies who want to get wider coverage of what they're doing in the climate change or sustainability space. What would it be?

Very good question. I think to be open, interesting, and targeted in your media outreach. Who do you want to reach? Why? And what's the outcome you want? And do you want to just say you were quoted in the press, or are you trying to target certain people? And to really engage. If you're commenting on a policy, what is it within that specific policy that you're commenting on? And not just to send out sort of a bland jargon-filled quote or sentence that you may have used before or that sort of says exactly what you want to say, but ultimately means very little to journalists or to the audience that you want to reach.

Be targeted, be timely. Thank you very much, Philippa, for joining us today for part 2. And thanks to our listeners. If you enjoyed this episode, please remember to subscribe to this podcast series and explore the entire catalog of podcast programming from the Conference Board. By visiting our website at tcb.org/podcasts. See you next time.

That was Let's Talk Sustainable Business.