Sustainable Views: Can female leadership accelerate climate action?

Hello and welcome back to the Sustainable Views podcast, brought to you by the Financial Times Group. This is where we discuss all things related to sustainability policy and regulation. My name is Philippa Nuttall and I'm editor of Sustainable Views and I'm your host for today. This podcast, as all the podcasts in this series, are being brought to you in conjunction with the progressive business coalition We Mean Business. So with us today, we have Catherine McKenna, CEO of Climate and Nature Solutions, founder of Women Leading on Climate, chair of the UN Group on Net Zero, and former Environment and Infrastructure Minister of Canada. We also have Aaron Kramer, CEO and president of the global nonprofit consultancy working on sustainability, BSR. So thank you both for being with us today. Great to have you here. So we're talking about a subject very close to my heart today, which is women, and whether female leadership can accelerate climate action. I think we all remember the photo from COP28 in Dubai last year, whereby, you know, finding the woman was a bit like reading a Where's Wally book. And if I look at the statistics, I don't think it was much better in terms of the nonprofits and the people who were not the main attendees there. So Catherine, to kick us off, you know, why are we still struggling to find parity in the climate world? We've got an existential questions facing us? Half the population are women, and yet we still don't see, you know, half of the people sort of trying to find the solutions are women. And why does this matter as well?

Look, it is critically important to have women engaged on climate, not just because we're 50% of the population, but because women are more ambitious. So it was very disheartening and actually super annoying to see that the COP29 organizing committee, so in Azerbaijan, included no women. So it's not only that we're half the population, we're not even like given, you know, like some face time whether or not we can have an impact on that. So there was a great campaign. We Mean Business Coalition started it to get women, leading women to say it's completely unacceptable. I think I even gave a quote to the FT saying, not because we're 50% of the population, 'cause we want climate action. And then I thought Teresa Ribera, who's the Deputy Prime Minister of Spain and a minister there, She was actually quite direct. She's like, "No woman on organizing committee, no woman going to COP, no quota, no COP." So I think, you know what, it's also great that many of the women actually have a sense of humor and also are blunt. But anecdotally, when I went to COP21, I noticed that there were amazing women there. So Laurence Tubiana, who was the French ambassador, France had been working very hard in the lead up to COP for a number of years to get ambition, but she was really driving it in her quiet, thoughtful way, wearing her Converse sneakers, doing little doodles. And then we had Christiana Figueres-Duarte, Kerris, who was a firecracker. She was the executive secretary of the UNFCCC. And so she was obviously driving action. But there were a bunch of women ministers. I was one of a core group of ministers, but included many women ministers that were selected to really get answers or solutions to thorny issues. I could go on and on. But there was this network and it was organic. But everyone, what I saw is in the rooms, in the corridors, They were saying, we don't just need a Paris Agreement, we need an ambitious one. And they were doing the heavy lifting on this. And they don't always get enough attention. But I filed that away because I was like, OK, that's really interesting. I didn't come here looking to see that women were more ambitious, but this is clearly what is happening. And they're more strategic. And they aren't just holding to talking points, which often happens in these discussions. So I think that if you look at also the facts, I mean, I think facts obviously and stats are really important, that while over 70% of people globally want more climate action than their governments are delivering, that when you break that down, women are 2.5 more times likely to respond to messaging that says we need more significant climate action. 60% are more likely to talk about climate change with their friends and family, which is very important 'cause they're putting it in their own way about you know, people they love, communities they love, and the impacts that they're seeing and the opportunity for change, 30% more likely to demand clean energy for their communities. And something that is critically important and that we have to wrestle with, which is fossil fuels. This is a fossil fuel climate crisis. And 70% of women are more likely to think that those causing the problems, the polluters, should be held responsible. So I think that this demonstrates this groundswell. But then if you go to the businesses, so if you look at what's happening in the business community. Once again, unfortunately, we do not have enough women CEOs, but we have a lot of women in C-suite that they are demanding climate action. So if you look at companies that have women in leadership positions, they're much more likely to be acting on climate. If you have women on boards, they are much more likely to be disclosing their emissions. We need to disclose emissions. You need to measure what you want to reduce. And you can go across the board. There's many stats that demonstrate this. And so really the goal is we're stronger together. So you may feel alone in your boardroom, you may feel alone at the negotiating table. You won't feel alone in the streets. Let me tell you that women and girls in the streets are very vocal, but it is very important that we bring together a network, but not just because we're women, because we're more ambitious and we're also more practical. So Women Leading on Climate is bringing together women leaders from the business community, from governments, ministers, and broader civil society to start demanding more ambitious action from governments into next year. So next year's really important. Paris Agreement requires everyone to ratchet up ambition. We're not seeing that now. So we need to do that and we need to be specific about things we need to see. So that's like tripling renewable energy, doubling energy efficiency, fossil, like having some managed phase out of fossil fuels. And then we wanna bring that to COP. So this COP, we are going to do something that we did before. When I left politics, that's when I created Women Leading on Climate. I started Women Kicking It on Climate and brought women leaders together. But we're going to flood COP with messaging from women and girls around the world demanding, talking about what they are doing, because I think it's important we all share what we're doing, but also demanding more action from governments next year.

Great. Thank you. That's a really powerful start for us, Katherine. Aaron, I'd like to bring you in because you're obviously a man. And so how How do you see sort of women leadership on climate change? I mean, do you think women intrinsically, as Katherine has suggested, are stronger in terms of demanding action on climate change? I mean, we know certain political leaders like Marine Le Pen in France or Giorgia Meloni in Italy are probably not great examples of what Katherine has just set out. So where do you see women and climate in terms of leadership?

Well, first of all, I think thanks for having me. Katherine just gave, I think, a masterclass in embodying strong leadership from a woman on climate as she has for many years. So I think we have a walking, talking, not walking right now, but a present example of strong female leadership. And actually, this goes back some decades. So, you know, we think of Jim Hansen, we think of Al Gore, but who led the effort to coin the phrase sustainable development? Gro Harlem Brundtland. Strangely enough, who was an advocate in the 1980s for climate action a woman leader by the name of Margaret Thatcher, who's not associated with progressive or woolly-headed ideas, but she felt very strongly that climate was going to be a more and more important issue. So I think this goes back decades. And then more recently, because I think you name-checked a lot of the really strong leaders, who have been some of the youth voices who have raised the profile of of climate. I think of, of course, Greta Thunberg, but also Vanessa Nakate, and there are a great many others. And so I think we see lots of examples of this. So representation absolutely matters. I think the nature of leadership absolutely matters. One thing I want to come back to later on is who's impacted by climate change, because it is disproportionately women, and very often women in the parts of the world where the resources are the least to be able to get through what is already a very, very bumpy transition. I want to be a little careful about overgeneralizing on gender lines, but I do think that there are a couple of features of what kind of leadership we need. And that's what I'm really interested in. What's the nature of the leadership that we need? It's not the great man, and I say great man very consciously, theory of leadership, the so-called man on horseback, the top-down leadership. That's a 20th century model that doesn't work in the 21st century, number one. Number two, doesn't work for climate because this is an unprecedented challenge. It affects all of us across all jurisdictions. So Catherine, you represented Canada and so on. No country controls its own destiny here. We need to have collaboration. And I do think it's fair to say that women are maybe more inclined to collaborative leadership, which is, which remains, you know, strength remains important dimension of this and so on. When you think of gender stereotypes, you have to be stronger in some ways to build collaborative models than top-down models that come from a unitary point of view. It takes a lot more work. It takes negotiation. It takes diplomacy. It takes sticking to principles and so on. And so I think it's no accident that two of the people you mentioned, Catherine Laurence Tubiana and Christiana Figueres, were the architects of the agreement, of the Paris Agreement, not the only ones, but crucial ones. And of course, Patricia Espinosa picked up the baton and so on. So I think that's it. The other is, while clearly at COP28 and COP29 initially and ongoing, there was, I think, there was not the kind of representation we would want. If you go a layer below the organizing committees, if you go a layer below the presidency and who's walking around, who was walking around in Dubai, you would see actually amazing diversity in all its forms. I maintain that the COPs are the one global event that look most like the world as it actually is than any other event in the world, including indigenous populations and so on. And then if you think about the world of sustainability, I would say, you know, the numbers of chief sustainability officers, it is probably the C-suite role that has the greatest representation of women of any role. It's striking when you look at companies from Google to Amazon to many others where you have women leading the way. My own organization, we are 73% female identified here at BSR. And so I'm not representative of the whole organization actually. And so I think in the world of sustainability broadly, actually women are leading the way. And I don't think that just is an accident. I think that is because The longer-term thinking that women often, I think, exhibit is there. The instinct for collaboration that women often bring to the table is there. And so that in some ways is the glass half full version of this story, which is in the sustainability world overall, I think we see a lot of examples of women leadership. As is so often the case, still necessary to go through, I guess it's a green glass ceiling, break through the green glass ceiling and have more women in positions of ultimate leadership authority. But there's a picture that's actually quite positive from the sustainability world overall.

Thanks, Aaron. And I was interested as well, you used the word diversity as well and how much it's general diversity that needs to happen, not necessarily just sort of women leadership. As well. And I dunno if that's something you see that having a more diverse group of people, whether it's women or different genders, actually also helps the discussion move forward.

Absolutely. And again, it's because of the nature of the challenge. This is a challenge that affects all of us, including those of us with the fewest resources. And so, you know, solutions hatched in New York or Ottawa or Paris or London, they're important. Like, you know, we don't wanna lose that, but it can only be part of the solution. And so I think the notion of inclusive leadership, and you spoke to Mary about Mary Robinson, she's been a fierce voice for inclusion. And I think that is going to become more important. In fact, it's interesting that the UNFCCC is allocating badges for COP29 this year quite differently with an effort to have a better global balance in terms of the participation there. And so I think that is important today and it's only going to grow more important.

I hope they're also noting if you are associated with fossil fuels. I think that's also important. I just want to pick on something Erin said, like, why is women leadership so important? And first of all, I do want to give a shout out to the diversity piece. I mean, and now obviously there's broader diversity, including how people identify in terms of You know, if they're non-binary or trans or whatever. So I think LGBTQ+ more broadly. So I think that that's important. I also think diversity in terms of young women, because younger people, I mean, if we were to break down our stats now and actually go to younger women across the globe, like, it's amazing to see how they are willing to say things that no one else will say, but they are just true. And I think the unvarnished truth is what women often bring to discussions. I certainly try to, to break through and also talk like, and not like an alien, 'cause the climate world, we use words that people have never heard of and certainly don't get excited about. But when I think back, the Rio Summit, so I'm gonna take a Canadian example, but Severn Suzuki, so she was a 12-year-old and spoke at the Rio Summit and was the most compelling person because she's like, I'm telling you leaders, we expect you to act. Now that's 32 years ago. If only leaders had paid more attention, but also Indigenous leadership, 'Cause I've seen this. I mean, often Indigenous women are the most impacted. Also racialized women, including in developed countries, they live in communities that are more likely to be impacted by floods or pollution. But you actually see that they bring different attributes to the table and they can speak very powerfully from their own perspective. So I just wanna emphasize, women leading on climate is not just women leaders. Part of it, we do need women leaders 'cause they can make phone calls to leaders and they can put pressure because They may represent businesses or other strong constituencies, but we also need women everywhere because the way you get more climate action is actually, and this is what I really believe on transformative change, sure, we need innovations and there's a lot of time spent on innovation, but we also need governments that are trying to act to feel like they've got support. So when I was bringing in, I was tasked with bringing in a price on pollution, some people call it a carbon tax, it was revenue neutral. So it's actually by the Supreme Court not, a carbon tax. But when we brought that in, I needed support of people broadly, not just environmentalists. And women were way more likely to support those policies, which actually helped me push, including internally, you know, within your own cabinet, to be able to bring in this change. And I think that that's what we need to— governments need to hear that they have a license to do more ambitious things. And if they don't want to act on climate, that there will be consequences because people actually— what is the— thing that is most infuriating. Like, why do I still work on climate? My friends think I'm bonkers. They're like, you know, you try so hard every day. You get up and you're trying to do a million different initiatives. It's because it's so obvious, like, people want climate action. Like, the polling, 70% want more ambitious climate action. But we are going to have to really push and raise our voices for that. And women are the ones that speak the loudest and, you know, where it resonates the most, and girls. So I think we need this broader group that is all women and girls in countries who care, which we know is a much larger percentage of the population. So I think this is how we're going to get change because I think we've been doing a lot of things in a binary way, really focused on policies and policy wonkiness. And like that is the— even the polling now shows that what resonates to people generally, but obviously, as we've said, messages resonate on climate, resonate more with women, is actually taking action to protect the people and communities you love, like you love. So we got to think about that. And I think the best people to do that are like mothers, sisters, aunties, medicine women in the, you know, often in the context of Indigenous communities, like people that actually can talk to their friends and neighbors and say, this is really important and bring together, you know, on the streets for sure, but in the boardrooms, in the negotiating tables, in the labs, in the communities, So I'm actually really excited because I've been trying to figure out, I'm like always every angle, every angle on this issue. And of course there's an economic angle. Of course there's a national security angle, there's a social justice angle, but I think there's also a gender angle to empower or push governments to do more, especially in this critical moment next year, but in this decade.

And I know that Catherine, you're setting up a new initiative around women. Perhaps you could explain a bit more what that is and if this is going to help achieve the vision you've just set out.

Well, that's the plan. So it's Women Leading on Climate, but we're now going to be very focused. So at COP, we're— sorry, not a COP, but Climate Week, we're bringing together many of the women who signed this letter. That's the start, you know, and other women who said, okay, this is ridiculous. Like, climate world, what is going on here? We're now falling into traps that we're seeing in many countries where we're like, we don't even care about women now. So obviously we demanded representation, but this is about women who are going to, within their own countries. So we want to have a global voice on demanding action, but we need to be very practical. Obviously, when we talk about climate plans, new NDCs, which we will never use that acronym, but new climate plans that are due next year by governments, we need to raise our voices right now. And that means like whatever tools you think may work in your country, whether it's like putting pressure as a businesswoman or putting pressure like, you know, because you know folks in government or whatever it is, So that would be country networks. Brazil is already launching a country network, but we're going to have many countries, key countries, having women country networks formally of women and girls or informally. And then COP, what I'm most excited about probably is really COP is as much as Erin says, it's very diverse and everything. It's very exclusive. Like, who the heck gets to go to COP? Like, one, get a badge to go to COP, but two, be able to afford to go to COP or you know, have time away from your family or other obligations or jobs. So we want to flood COP with messages from women and girls around the world, as I said, talking about what we're doing, because I think it's important we all have to feel like we're part of this in our communities, even in our homes, but then also demanding action. So that's part of a campaign. I think our focus like for this, you know, coming year is really into Brazil. And actually seeing governments step up. 'Cause that is an accountability mechanism. We actually need governments to have more ambitious climate plans, but actually the actions, they need to be more detailed. It can't just be high level. As I say, we gotta think like an Olympian where you have long-term goals, but you every day have to get up and do the work. So that is what I'm very excited about. I think there's a huge opportunity. I think it's been largely untapped. Not that there aren't amazing networks of women, including women working on climate, but being very specific about what the goal is and thinking about, you know, how do we get transformational change and create spaces for more action in countries?

And Aaron, how does this translate then into the business world? I mean, we've mentioned here the need for collaboration, for long-term thinking, and also the need for business to a certain degree to legitimize this action. I mean, I sometimes feel that businesses are sort of hiding a little bit behind politicians and kind of allowing politicians to sort of roll back a bit on sustainability without standing up and actually saying, you know, we want action and actually we're ready to move. Is this a space that women can potentially fill and some of the women leaders can stand up and help sort of legitimize this transformation within businesses as well as governments?

Well, the animating purpose behind the Women Business Coalition, and I was present at the creation at a, you know, in a very humble hotel motel in the Netherlands in 2014, and we're proudly celebrating 10th anniversary at Climate Week, though with clear knowledge that we have a very long ways to go, was to catalyze the business voice. And I think there was some impact at Paris from that. I think obviously a great many mothers and fathers of that great success, I think we made a contribution. I think that time is here again. And here's why. I think With apologies to Al Gore, I think we have an inconvenient truth that we're all facing right now in 2024, which is, you know, 9 years after the Paris Agreement was signed, halfway through the decisive decade, we have stalled out on our progress. There are a lot of investments, there are a lot of innovations, there are a lot of collaborations, there are some great new policies. All that is great. It's fantastic. It's necessary, but clearly it's insufficient. So I think we have to up our game again. And that hopefully involves the business community. Now, it needs to involve the business community. Now, there are a couple of things going on that are a bit challenging right now. One is that companies are very aware that they're finding it hard to meet their own targets, whether it's around Scope 3, whether it's due to the biggest dilemma of all, which is how do we ensure that we can create more value as opposed to growth and as opposed to consumption, while also decarbonizing. We haven't quite figured that out yet. Policies, we have patchwork policies around the world. And then the rise of regulations has, I have to say, injected a new set of caution in the boardroom where a lot of boards of directors, a lot of CEOs are saying, well, wait a minute, we're struggling to meet our existing goals. We now are seeing our peers being the subject of greenwashing enforcement. We are mandated to sign off on our carbon accounts, our human rights accounts, our due diligence. It's better for us not to exhibit more ambition. Now, I'm sorry, that's just not going to work. But that is the mindset that's present right now. So is there a particular role for women right now in this? Yes, but this is an all hands on deck moment. Because we have stalled out. So we need women leaders. We need people to speak truth, both to power and from power, to say the economy is not on a stable footing if we continue to see the risks of climate change grow and get out of control. We cannot be good stewards, let alone of our shareholders' interests, but of our shareholders' interests if we don't do something more about it. So what will that take? I think that will take a bit of courage and a bit of a spine. It will also take engagement on public policy. Katherine's right that large majorities of almost every country's population says they want more action on climate, but they don't necessarily vote that way. It's certainly true in my country, in the United States. And so I think we need to find ways to activate what it is that people want as citizens, as employees, and so on, to translate that desire for action into real action, because that's what politicians pay attention to. I'm living through a rather bizarre electoral season in the United States this year. There was one question—

We're all watching. We're all watching.

Well, yeah.

Living it.

Yeah. Well, we are all living it, sometimes with our eyes closed, sometimes not. There was one question in the presidential debate this week on climate. It came at the And frankly, neither candidate answered the question particularly well, one better than the other. But, but so it's there, it's real, but it's not activated. It's latent. And I think we need to find ways to do that. And businesses and business people have a uniquely valuable voice because they can speak not as the representatives of an NGO, which unfortunately a lot of people filter out, but as people whose job it is to manage economics. And so there's something there. So I think we have to re-energize the overall community. That involves speaking from the head. It also involves speaking from the heart. And I won't presume to speak for women, but as a man, I know that we're not always socialized to speak from the heart. That's not really what we're taught implicitly and explicitly. Now, I think that's changing, which is very, very good. But I think that, that, that men have some cultural barriers to overcome. This whole gender thing is interesting because historically it's been women who have to overcome certain roles that are attributed to gender. I actually think in the 21st century men have more to overcome than women do. And men's traditional styles are not always as well suited, whether it's climate or other things, including human rights. And I started my work at BSR and human rights as well. So, so I think that's needed because we have to activate the latent interest. We have to re-establish a sense of courage in the boardroom and frankly in the, you know, in the executive and legislative branches around the world.

Because how do we do that, Aaron? Because is a way of doing that to flip the narrative a bit? There's a lot of discussion at the moment I hear from businesses, you say it's all about security, it's all about costs, it's all about sort of, you know, let's roll back a little bit and just, you know, steady the ship because we've got the war in Ukraine and we've got the elections in the US and we've got this and we've got that. Now it's not necessarily the time, even if we understand. And I think the benefits to business of climate action and the costs if we don't act still seem quite nebulous to people and aren't necessarily factored in. Is there a role that women can play, do you feel, in the world of business in terms of perhaps perhaps slightly, you know, pushing the benefits, the positive narrative, you know, of change? I mean, this has been tried before. It doesn't seem to have quite landed. Do you think now is the time that that can happen?

If we believe, as I do, that women are often more oriented towards longer-term thinking, then the answer is an unequivocal yes to your question. And we have some tools. One of the best things that came out of Paris, in my opinion, was the TCFD because the TCFD mandates—

Can you just spell that out, what that is for our listeners, please?

Sorry, yeah, the Task Force on Climate-related Financial Disclosures, rolls right off the tongue. TCFD mandates climate scenarios. It mandates that boards look at medium and long-term considerations. And we now have a lot of companies looking at climate transition plans. These are practical steps that hundreds of companies are implementing, they need to be done in a clear-eyed way. So we have these mechanisms. So that's something that absolutely needs to happen. And if you take as real, and again, I think this is true, that women are more often going to ask questions. And there's data out there about boards and gender diversity quality of decision-making. And I think it's more correlation than causation. I don't think we've yet proven the case, but there is a correlation. When you have women in the boardroom, I think those mechanisms are going to be used in a more honest way, quite frankly, and that will begin to affect decision-making.

Thank you, Aaron. Sorry, Kathryn, to cut you off as well. Do you want to come in now and say what you were going to say?

Yeah, I mean, I'm going to go like directly to the jugular here. Like the stats, it's not like— it actually is shown that when you have broader diversity, including women, you get better decision-making, but you also get better outcomes on climate, whether that is the C-suite, CEOs obviously, but also in the board. So if we could change things, and that is true also by women leadership in politics. So look, I think one of our challenges, if I could add a magic wand, I'd be like, okay, we're going to have half the population women, half CEOs. And why do we not have this? The thing that drives Slightly bonkers. And we hear this about boards, like we can't find women for boards. I know maybe I'm misusing this, but I got binderfuls of board women that would be good on boards, but we're self-replicating. And by the way, in Canada, so I'll give you a perfect example. So we have obviously mostly male CEOs by far. More male CEOs are named, I think, Michael or whatever our most popular male name is than women CEOs. Oh, okay, we got a bit of a problem there that they actually then are on the same senior level, C-suite CEOs are on the boards of the fossil fuel companies. So the problem about these discussions is I wish, and I'm not saying this to you, Aaron, but I just wish we could focus on facts because the reality is businesses understand or they should better understand, but maybe it only has to be by regulation, by the Task Force on Climate-Related Financial Disclosures, by regulation generally, that we're going to get people actually like CEOs to do what they should be doing, which is both addressing risk in a real way as well as addressing opportunity as well as addressing their responsibilities. So the reality is if I were like, if we were to have the CEOs were women, I know not all women are amazing. I'll give you some examples in Canada, our premier of Alberta who put a pause on renewable investments and the biggest opportunity, which was the market in Alberta. But generally, the stats show this. So if we actually had half CEOs, half C-suite, half boards, half politicians, political leaders, let me tell you, we will get further. I know maybe you're saying this is Catherine McKenna. Actually, this is just actually stats, McKinsey, whatever, blah, blah, blah. But this is all to say that right now we need way more leadership. And I'm not giving people like, we've got the war in Ukraine, all these things. No, fossil fuel companies, by the way, are making hand over fist in profits, giving them back in share buybacks. By the way, not to Canadians. Canadians are sometimes fooled. Like, you know, our politicians say this is amazing. No, they're actually giving it back to shareholders outside of Canada while they're demanding subsidies to clean up the pollution that they cause, while people are paying more for inflation because of the cost that these companies are charging for oil and gas, not a revenue-neutral carbon price, while they're the cause of fossil fuel climate crisis. So I just wish, like, sometimes it feels like, and this is where I will push back, Like it feels like if you're a woman demanding more climate action, doesn't matter if you're in business or you're a political leader or you're on the streets, people are like, "Hmm, that sounds a little woke." No, it's actually just what people, we need to do unless we're completely bonkers. And if we care about our kids, what are we leaving them? I know it's very hard. I did corporate law. You know, we got to maximize net present value, but I think we're going to have to do a better job. Up on what we're doing. And I think women are key to leading the way. I will give you another example, the We Mean Business Coalition. So Erin Sparrow helped found it. Maria Mandolucci started a campaign that actually was really important to the last COP. I know there are very different views on what happened in the last COP. I may have a different view of like really the real impact, but the reality, we finally were able to talk about fossil fuels. Like, it is completely bonkers. The rest of the world should be very annoyed with everyone who goes there, all the leaders, that we can't actually talk about the cause of the climate crisis. But they called— so 260 businesses, I was trying to get the stat, representing $1.6 trillion, greater than $1.6 trillion in global annual revenue, urged national governments to address the primary cause of climate change, burning of fossil fuels. So that was a campaign that was pushed by a woman, Rhea Mandalucci. But I'm going to tell you, the women that are part of our networks most of them, well, they came from the We Mean Business Coalition, are women in C-suites who are ready to stand up. And so, I mean, I don't want to put them, you know, like, of course, you know, it's hard, right? There are many different considerations. I'm well aware that people, you know, like businesses, they have to make money. But I think that thinking about this in a more sophisticated way, and by the way, regulation's coming, everyone, so you better future-proof your business and Climate catastrophes are more expensive for all businesses, and litigation is coming. I mean, I think that we need to be more rational how we approach this, including the boardroom. But I think it's actually going to be women. And that is why we are doing this network of women. And I think it's like people that are willing, women in particular and girls, and broader diversity, by the way, within that, and to actually say things and push and do things. So that's the goal with Women Leading on Climate. It's very ambitious, but I don't believe we have time to like be not ambitious. And TCFD, I think, is part of it. But these all take time, these processes. So I think actually, you know, people, women and girls in their families, in their communities, talking to people, saying they want action, I think is critically important because those voices often aren't heard as much as they should be heard. And as I go back to my stat, 70% of people want more action from governments. How do we make that happen? It is not going to be TCFD, to be honest. I mean, it's part of it, but it's going to have to be people raising their voices and demanding it.

Yeah, totally agree with you. But isn't this part of a wider social, a wider debate as well? Because ultimately women and girls can go out on the streets and demand things. We can get more women and girls can be— or women can be at certain levels in businesses. But if those people at the top of those fossil fuel companies, which they are, I would think in probably virtually every fossil fuel company, are still men making those decisions, which are still based in a system which is based on making profit, how do you still get that change that you're talking about within a very short amount of time?

If you're a government leader, you literally can make decisions on policies, right? If you are the CEO of a company, you can say, we're not investing in fossil fuel companies. Like, there are people that have power that maybe they need to be a little stronger on actually making those things. As I said, I actually think if we could actually change board composition, if we could change CEO, if we can change leaders, we just don't have time. Like in Canada, it was going to take like 150 years to get equity on board. So I don't really have time for that. Like I will do work on that too. By the way, in our cabinet, the prime minister just said, okay, half the cabinet are women. And oh my God, like, oh, before he actually appointed us, everyone was like, oh no.

So we really need more affirmative action then, or quotas in actually terms of speeding this up.

I know that that's very challenging, but you know what, I just think the drama out of it. It would mean you actually went and looked for people and you didn't self-replicate because people are choosing themselves. They're literally choosing different versions of themselves to be on boards. And that is not a best practice. That's not me. That's someone who I don't always love. McKinsey, though, does say this. Like, you know, people have looked at this in decision-making.

Let me speak to the diversity point just briefly. So, we've seen an example of this in the United States. Again, I'm trained as a lawyer. The current president, the former president have stocked the judiciary, the federal, federal judge system in fundamentally different ways. The former occupant of the White House who wants another go at it, he basically appointed a bunch of white men, some, some white women, no people of color and, and large majority of men. The current president, Joe Biden, has just has just broken all records in terms of really aiming to put a completely different set of demographics in the federal bench. That has consequences. That makes a difference. And so these things are possible when it comes to boards. Again, quotas in the United States, quotas are kind of a nonstarter, but it doesn't require quotas. It requires leadership. And it requires leadership from men to say, we need institutions that look more like our overall population. And, you know, again, I, you can get into some tricky territory and trying to attribute certain behaviors to certain kinds of people, whether it's on gender lines or race and ethnicity and so on. So a little, a little reluctant to go there. But, but I think the bottom line is our societies are becoming more diverse. The pool of talent— I've been blessed at BSR. I visited 60 countries during my time at BSR. If I've learned one thing from that, human capacity does not know borders. You find it everywhere in the world. You find creativity, you find intelligence, you find fortitude. It's everywhere in the world, whether in a Bangladeshi garment factory, whether it's in a village in Guatemala, or whether it's in the San Francisco Bay Area where I live, it's everywhere. And we would be idiots collectively not to take advantage of the breadth and wealth of talent that exists in the world. And so to persist with the populating our institutions the way we have for all of human history, frankly, until the last few decades, it's just from a practical perspective, from an excellence perspective, it's nuts.

I just want to be clear because I know I'm feeling a bit like maybe I wasn't clear in this. Like, we need men who do this, right? Who support women. We're not— and I don't want to sound like I'm anti-men. I'm not.

I didn't think about that.

I just want anyone who's listening to this. It's critical because, as you say, like, if the people in power tend to be majority male, for example, probably majority in at least in North America, Europe, probably white men. We need them to actually help. So, it's not meant to be exclusive, but it is meant because we need to tap into women because they actually are speaking up in different fora that we need to include them. But I could not agree with you more, Erin, and you're a huge champion. And there are many many business leaders and many board members and others that are champions. So just for everyone, whether you're a male or female business leader, governments need your support, especially governments that are trying to take action. And I actually think like in the US, you've actually seen a lot of business step up and say, we don't support Donald Trump actually, because we think it's bad for the economy and interest. Well, you could actually say the same thing on climate because if you need certain action, if you say it, then it actually becomes more real. And it is true, you need these policies, you need these policies.

That's a really super strong call. I'm going to have to cut you off. Sorry, Katherine. But that was a super clear, excellent call for business to stand up. And I think I totally agree. I mean, that's what we're seeing in Europe. We're just not seeing businesses stand up and demand action on climate. And yeah, sitting back a little bit. Aaron, do you want to sort of give us a last call for action as well? What's the one thing that you would like to see happening or if you could wave your magic wand, what needs to happen tomorrow to boost climate leadership, and especially in terms of women?

Two things. One is, let's remember that women are disproportionately impacted by the climate crisis. Women live in more economic precarity. Women often take on responsibilities for their family's well-being. These are all things that are under attack. Women are in, you know, some of the work in agriculture, light industry, that have— those things have given women a step into the formal economy in the last 30, 40 years for the first time in human history. Those things are all at risk. We have to take that very, very seriously. The last thing I'd say is businesses do need to stand up with a sense of courage right now. A lot of the pushback on climate action is well orchestrated. It's well-funded and it is not on the level. And I think business leaders know that, but too seldom say that. And so I think we need that and we need that from women. We also need that from men, because I think the point of this discussion, how can we ensure that women's leadership continues and advances and accelerates the progress that we need to make, won't happen without that. So that's something that I think very badly.

Yeah, no, totally, Aaron. I think that's exactly correct. And yet, no, super, super well said. So I'd like to— I'm going to have to draw the discussion to a close there, but I feel we could have a whole seminar about this. And thank you both for your very strong views and opinions today. And yeah, Katherine, look forward to hearing more about your initiative as it gets up and running. So that was the Sustainable Views podcast from the Financial Times Group. If you want to read more about issues on sustainability, access our other podcasts, or check out our policy tracker, please go to sustainableviews.com. Thank you for listening.