Sustainable Views: Turning fashion into a sustainable business

This podcast is supported by Federated Hermes Limited. Since 1983, we have been focused on delivering sustainable wealth creation, aiming to enrich investors, society, and the environment over the long term. Federated Hermes Limited, a global leader in active, responsible investment. Professional investors only. Capital at risk.

Fashion is problematic. The carbon footprint and waste concerns related to the production and sale of clothing is so high that European regulators are passing legislation that increases scrutiny on materials and imposes responsibilities on brands. But fashion has another dark side. After construction, it is the world's second biggest driver of modern slavery. Women represent over three-quarters of people involved in abuses according to the Global Slavery Index. So today we'll talk about making the fashion and textile industries more sustainable with one of the most vocal campaigners in this area, Ursula de Castro. She's the co-founder of Fashion Revolution. She's an author, and she's one of the most well-known and recognized figures in this area. This is Sustainable Views, and I'm Silvia Pavoni, your host. Ursula, welcome to the show.

Hello. Thank you for having me.

So we are actually talking the day after the British Fashion Council had its annual awards ceremony, and we were saying that You had to miss it. You were nominated as a Leader of Change, but for, for other reasons you couldn't be there. So you were, uh, instead— what did you do instead last night? And what were you going to wear?

It was doubly annoying actually, because I knew that I wasn't going to be there, and then I had a very last minute change of plan. So on Sunday I knew that I could have gone, so I was like, uh, and still kind of, you know, planning with what would have been my outfit. I actually posted what would have been my outfit this morning. It's a dress that I inherited from my ex-mother-in-law. It's this very beautiful dark brown, sort of chocolatey dark brown dress with gold, with a gold pattern. Very, very, very beautiful. And the shoes I could have worn were my daughter's and my mother's necklace. So again, one of these outfits put together from memories.

And this is also very much your mantra, isn't it? So that of reusing what is in your wardrobe and ensuring that fashion and clothing is sustainable in the most original sense of the word. And you were a pioneer, if you don't feel embarrassed by me defining you as such, of upcycling. Was it called upcycling when you launched your brand in 1997?

No, not at all. It wasn't called anything. It was called reusing. It was called, this is what I want to do. It was called, I like picking up things that I find and I fall in love with. You know, of course, upcycling now has the name, and to be honest, it has grown to be really more of a method and a technique. You know, at the time, it was just, as I said, me and a few other designers picking up pieces and reusing them. Now I feel it's more formalized to a certain extent. Some designers are using a particular waste and others another. And I still feel to this day that it's really not an opportunity that has been explored enough. I often say that If upcycling had received 1% of the investment that recycling has received, by now we would have, you know, assembly and disassembly lines in factories. We would have new job descriptions such as creative waste engineers, both in brands and in manufacturers. It's just something we've overlooked. But creatively, the younger designers are really exploring it. So it's really exciting because it's also differs very, very much all over the world, and it's practiced all over the world. So it's, it's still very much up in my, in my estimation and love.

So let's talk a bit about the business of fashion and where the money goes when it comes to investing in fashion brands. And then I would like to ask you about the different campaigns that you're also working on in this area. So your label, From Somewhere, again, the original upcycling label. How have consumers changed since then? So now secondhand or vintage or reusing, shopping in your wardrobe, I hear some people defining this trend as such, is more palatable maybe for a wider number of consumers. Would that be fair to say? And is business actually moving at the same time and with the same speed as consumers are.

It is a particularly interesting time when it comes to the secondary market, I would say. It's almost as if everything has gigantified, as life has, you know, with social media and the way that we communicate with each other. I mean, to be honest with you, when I was growing up, we always bought vintage and secondhand, and I keep on bumping into people who remember and did it as well. So it seemed quite big, you know, 30 years ago, 20 years ago, nevertheless. And, um, but now, um, there seems to be the added impetus of using, um, buying secondhand as a way to be more sustainable. And as always with business, it's been a little bit co-opted by, um, the big brands and, uh, you know, the big organizations to an extent. Um, so there is also the question that it's still buying, it's still consuming. In my opinion, of course, it's way better, a much better way to consume, but it's still the principle that if you're buying something cheap because it's secondhand, you should still aim to keep it for a long time rather than have it temporarily on your body for a few months. But in terms of awareness and in terms of facility of finding it, this is increasing hugely. So where is the money going? Um, the interesting fact is that when the internet came alive and social media, we believed that it was going to be a way for smaller brands to have direct access to their consumers. And in a way, the hope was that this was going to somehow, um, you know, create some— I wouldn't say some parity, but more of a balance. While the opposite in fact is true, people are buying way more from from the main brands and way less from the smaller brands. So this hasn't happened. So inevitably, the business of fashion for young emerging designers, particularly all over the world, not in the great capitals where they get a lot of support— I mean, in London, the young designers get an enormous amount of support from the British Fashion Council and other organizations, but it's not necessarily the same all over the world. And what kind of support are they receiving? So it is a difficult time, and my feeling is that investments in both brands and organizations is scattered. Um, I was actually writing this morning for Vogue Business exactly about this, how it's almost like we are seeing lots of small trailers of a film that will we ever see in the end, but not really anything that seems to be breaking the mold, not something that really is creating enough change and enough visibility. I mean, the high streets still look all the same with the same brands, and magazines to a certain extent as well. So it's really about making space for emerging designers, innovation, those brands that are so small that can actually make big mistakes and learn from them. This is certainly something I've been doing for years with Aesthetica at London Fashion Week, and now that we have restarted Aesthetica in the last few months. But for me, supporting and giving visibility and making space for these young designers is crucial. And there is a wonderful quote by a designer called Thomas Lomé which says, "The next big thing is lots of small things." And this is very inspirational for me, how I see the future.

Now, this is an area that's— I mean, it's fascinating because of course we all wear clothes, we all go and buy them, and increasingly most people, I think, are aware of the issues of sustainability, meaning the environmental impact of the clothing we buy and also their provenance and who made them. And I know that you have a campaign exactly about this, who made my clothes. And so we're also seeing regulators now paying attention, right? Because greenwashing, these big brands or even small brands riding the trend, the sustainability trend, and, you know, trying to use the term sustainable as much as possible. Would you say it's a fair statement? And now also regulators again are paying attention and And we've seen cases in some countries saying that actually certain labels should not use that kind of wording or certain indices shouldn't be used as an indication of the sustainability of those clothing. So is this also going to help? Are you seeing a change coming from that kind of attention from policymakers? Or is it something that perhaps still feels too distant?

No, it does feel like this has had some movement. I mean, I certainly know that since we started Fashion Revolution in 2013— I'm the co-founder of an organization called Fashion Revolution, which is the biggest fashion activism movement in the world. We have teams in over 80 countries. And yes, I mean, of course we've seen movement, but the fashion industry is not yet regulated. So the EU is coming up with new laws we are expecting on due diligence, on on waste and on labeling as well. So that, you know, we are beginning to see definitely an interest when it comes to policymakers. But the reality is that it's not been— it's, as all changes, it is slow and it needs to come hand in hand with innovation and it needs to come hand in hand with commitments from the brands to actually do better. I mean, But at the end of the day, obviously with awareness comes demand, and undoubtedly citizens have been bombarded with information. And, you know, some of it, it's correct information. A lot of it, as you say, it's greenwashing. So it's almost like this whole sustainability in fashion thing is a bit of a new game and we have to create the rules. And yes, it's not as fast as we would like it to be because people and nature are being exploited at a rampant speed while we wait for these legislations. Workers are going underpaid and resources are being extracted and clothes are being dumped in landfill. So the cycle, the vicious cycle will take time to turn into a virtuous cycle. And I welcome the new parameters for greenwashing because greenwashing really is mighty confusing. And to a certain extent, we all know that brands take advantage of it in several ways. But it's very difficult to actually inform citizens about greenwashing. I mean, you can basically make them aware that greenwashing happens, but it requires knowledge to actually defy and understand if a brand is green. And our society doesn't give us that much time, and this knowledge is potentially a bit difficult to research on Google, even though there are lots of organizations— Fashion Revolution and the Transparency Index. There are apps like the The Good went up on transparency. I mean, there are so many that, um, where you can actually find out more, but it's creating a whole new mindset. I try to be encouraging and explain that when we went from shopping on the street to actually shopping online, we had to create a whole new different way of thinking. And this should now apply to the way that we Google our clothes. You know, if jeans, you should not just look for size. You should also feel that whether it fits your principles, you should have that information that tells you how much the people that are making those jeans are being paid. At the point of purchase, you should have the information of knowing if those jeans contain toxic chemicals or forever chemicals that won't wash off. But we're very far away from that level of transparency on behalf of the brands. Of course, We need it desperately because how can you be a conscious consumer without actually knowing what you're buying, who makes your clothes, what's in your clothes? And as a result, you know, this is, this is, it's impeding us. So in that sense, regulating greenwashing and above all ensuring that brands think twice before speaking inaccurately about what they're selling is actually really important.

So it would actually be very useful to have that kind of information as you purchase an item of clothing. But as you say, it does feel something that may happen very much in the future. But are you talking to any business leaders in the fashion industry who feel perhaps receptive to this idea? Or what kind of reaction do you get? When you talk to them?

What's interesting is that we've come to expect it in food, and there are huge comparisons between the fashion industry and the food industry, um, not least the fact that, um, you know, it— it's— they are industries that go very, very far back in the supply chain, all the way down to agriculture. I mean, fashion is, you know, encompasses so many other industries, but the skin is the second most absorbing organ in our bodies, and We know that the fashion industry is responsible for huge levels of pollution, intoxication, and so on. So it is really extraordinary to encounter the reticence when you do, which one does. But what I encounter more isn't so much the, you know, the reluctancy to move things forward. It's this sense that it's not joining up at the seams. There are lots of small organizations organizations each trying somehow to control the market for transparency or for traceability. And at the end of the day, this is not what it's about. It's about joining forces. It's about competing in the proper sense of the word, compete, to strive together rather than competing in rivalry. I mean, these solutions will affect us all, and it's up to all of us to find them together. And still we are seeing the application of an old business mentality, of an old business model onto one that should be entirely new. So we are seeing rivalries, we are seeing organizations that should collaborate actually not collaborating, we are seeing brands cannibalizing rather than giving visibility and space. So we cannot apply a very old way of thinking to what is a new science and potentially a new philosophy as well. And this is, you know, this is really where we're at at the moment.

Lastly, tell me about one of the campaigns that you're working on, Good Clothes, Fair Pay, which is a campaign by the organization Fashion Revolution that you co-founded. What is it about and how is it going?

Well, this is an incredible campaign because if we manage to gather 1 million signatures, then the EU will look at its— look at the whole project and facilitate regulations. And it's called Good Clothes, Fair Pay. And it's mostly a European campaign, although I have to say the subject of living wages is close to the heart of all of our country coordinators. So although the signatures actually only count in Europe, the campaign has been taken up globally. How important is it to actually know that the people who make our clothes are paid a living wage. It's fundamental to know that we are wearing clothes that are made in dignity and not in suffering. And it's one of the hardest things to achieve. You know, many brands will talk about environmental sustainability, inclusivity, but when it comes to the crunch, how much you pay your supply chain workers, we're very far away from reaching that dignity. And so it is an important campaign. Good Clothes, Fair Pay, you will find that there is a website and you can add your signature to it, and we would be very thankful if you do.

Ursula, thank you so much. I'm very thankful that you shared some time with us telling us about all the initiatives that you're working on, and best of luck for the future.

Thank you.

That's today's show. I will add links to the Good Clothes Fair Pay campaign in the show notes, along with the links of where you can find Ursula's book Loved Clothes Last, as well as any relevant articles on the fashion industry from Sustainable Views. Thanks again to Ursula de Castro for talking to me. Sustainable Views, as always, is produced by John Rogers. Thank you, John. And we will be taking a little break for a few weeks now. So we will find each other again in January. Until then.

This podcast is supported by Federated Hermes Limited, a global leader in active, responsible investment. We follow three pathways. Active ESG, sustainability, and impact. 3 routes to 1 destination: sustainable wealth creation. Capital at risk. Professional investors only.