Robert Herbst Explains How Make GETTING Sales EASIER!

Welcome to the Biz to Biz Podcast, your number one source for all business news.

Hey everybody, welcome to today's episode of B2B Vault, the Biz to Biz Podcast, sponsored by Nationwide Payment Systems and our new product NPS One, the smart invoicing tool for business. So if you need a smart invoicing tool, payment links, and a host of other features, book an appointment at nationwidepaymentsystems.com., and we'll give you a demo of our new product. So today's guest— silence my phone— is Rob Herbst, and Rob is from spireselling.com, and he wrote a couple books. But today, and today we're going to be talking about how AI and sales is converging and what's going on with that, with sales, with salespeople. And all the different things going on with AI. AI seems to be one of the hottest topics that I get asked about almost every single day. What are you doing with AI? And we're going to talk to Rob about that today. So Rob, introduce yourself to the audience.

Well, first of all, thanks for having me, Allen Kopelman. This is great. Yeah, in a nutshell, briefly, my background is I've run a Sales Consulting Company for 36 years now, helping sales forces, sales companies. We do a lot of training for sales managers and salespeople. Quickly, yeah, I wrote a couple of books. One is called Cheating Death. It's for salespeople. And the second one is Spire Sales Culture. It's for sales managers. So, we're students of sales, students of salespeople and sales companies and how customers are experiencing salespeople now. That's That's what intrigues me.

Somebody told me about sales and marketing recently when I was interviewing them, and they said sales is sometimes about selling people something they might not want or need and creating a want or need for that product. And I was like, whoa, that was pretty good. But, you know, I always say like sales is, you know, very interesting. People buy, you know, you have buyers You know, and I had another friend of mine used to tell me buyers are liars. It was one of his sayings. Yeah.

Okay.

I was like, wow, that's crazy. But you know, when, when you're selling, it's all kinds of things going on. You know, what is the, you know, where does the lead come from? What is the want? What is the need? You know, and then how are you going to go about selling that? And today, you know, everybody's talking about AI. AI is taking away jobs. Um, I think people who know how to use AI are taking jobs away from people who are not using AI. I tell everybody, invest $20 a month, buy, you know, get OpenAI, Claude, Groq, whichever one you want to use, and learn how to use it, you know.

Absolutely.

I use it all the time. I use it for all kinds of different things, summarizing documents. I mean, someone sent me a 150-page document. I uploaded it to ChatGPT. Not reading— I don't have time to read a 150-page document, right? So I said, please summarize this, and I got a 3-page summary.

Wow. Yeah, that's the beauty of it. It's fantastic. Yeah, right.

So I didn't have to go read the document. Then I asked it a bunch of other questions about the document, told it what I was looking for inside of this document. It found it, told me what page it was on. And everything. So it was very interesting way how to use— I find all kinds of different uses for it.

Yeah.

So tell me, what are salespeople doing with AI? I know what I'm doing with it, but what are you see salespeople doing with AI today?

Well, a couple of things. Um, one is, uh, it's, it's helping relieve some of their admin debt load, Right. So things like organizing, as simple as writing their expenses for them, summarizing calls for them, the obvious stuff like you and I could record this right now and an AI will summarize it for you. It'll help populate account data, admin kind of stuff, which relieves the salesperson from before and after the sale. Admin stuff. That's easy. It's valuable. It's fantastic. It reduces admin time. But the other thing that we're finding, Allen, that smart salespeople are using AI for, it's not to replace themselves at all. And it's not so that the customer doesn't need a salesperson anymore. What it does is, give you an example. We were in Geneva a couple weeks ago. We had a sales group. And just off the cuff, we're talking about strategizing accounts and we're talking about finding out the customer circumstance. Because if you're a strong salesperson, you're trying to find and fix a problem for the customer. Do you understand that customer's industry? Do you understand that customer circumstance? Do you understand that customer's company? And surprisingly, Allen, I said, you know what, guys, pull out your phones, pull up Groq or OpenAI, whatever you want, and take your account and just ask Groq, tell me about this customer, their industry and their company and their problems. And these people looked at me like I had three heads. And these are, you know, they're intelligent people. And they'd never done this. And so, they all got on their phones and let them wander around for 3-4 minutes and said, 'Okay, what do you find?' And oh my God, the hands start going up like crazy. I didn't realize that this customer is wrestling with these problems in this industry. And not that AI had it 100% perfect, but the awareness that it created and the context that it created that said, 'Okay, if my account is XYZ company functioning in this industry, this industry is wrestling with this problem, and these tend to be the problems that these companies are focusing on. Your company in particular may be susceptible to this problem.

Yeah, that's, you know, that's simple.

That's simple.

It's pretty interesting what it'll pull up. You know, like somebody told me they were, they were doing a sales, they were calling on me to sell me something, and the guy goes, oh, I put your name in OpenAI's And he goes, whatever various things came up, so he started asking me about my podcast. And then he read one of the articles that I wrote. He goes, oh, I found that article really interesting. So that can give you some context in how to talk to somebody also. When you're Googling them, things might come up about their, maybe their personal life or some charity that they're involved in or some project that they're working on. And that gives you a little more insight into the person. Yeah, you're not going to get that from Google.

No, no. But interestingly enough too, excuse me, um, it, it points the salesperson towards where they are not replaceable. So another exercise that we did is we said, okay, how would your customer use AI for whatever part of your service you offer? As a salesperson. And the purpose of that was to create awareness for the salesperson to say, I am not replaceable in these areas. And what we're trying to continually hammer home to salespeople, the upper echelon of salespeople are practitioners. They have the intuition, they have the skill set, they have the curiosity and the determination to find something that the customer can't find on their own. Find a problem, right? So we had them do this exercise with AI as well. What, what part of what you offer a customer can AI do? And so the AI said, well, these, you know, these base things, these base administrative tasks, this base information. And it— what it made the salespeople realize is that I am not just an information provider. I'm not just a dog with a note, so to speak. I'm not there to just barf all over my customers and just give them a whole bunch of information. They can do that on their own. My job is to diagnose. My job is to understand how the customer is experiencing a problem in this product area. And every customer experiences it in their own way, right? In their own— they have their own gaps because they have their own circumstances. You can't, you can't replace that with AI, that human interaction.

No, that's true. One of my friends is in a business where they have meetings, 5, 6 meetings every day. And I was telling them, I said, you know, you meet on Zoom, right? And they go, yeah. And I go, well, why don't you turn on the AI companion? They were like, what, what's that? And I was like, no, turn on the AI companion after the call. You don't have to sit there while you're on the phone with the person, writing down all these notes and then forgetting what you wrote down. The AI companion will give it to you all typed up, what you talked about, key points. If you mentioned anything about following up, it'll give you like these points that were talked about in the conversation. And they started trying it out and they were like, man, that just saved me like all kinds of time because now I can just go to the— I can just open that up, then go to my CRM. Fill that all in in just a few minutes, put the document in there also, you know, print the PDF and upload it there. And I have everything organized. I'm not having to type out like, what did I talk about?

Yeah.

And rack my brain and all that. And it's like a massive time savings. They were like, they're saving 2 hours a day.

Yeah. So, yeah, which is more time for sales calls, right?

More time to do what you do best. I always tell salespeople, you know, do what you do best. That's make sales. And then figure out, like, if there's customer service involved in your business, like, who else— who's handling that and how you can— you know, once you make your sale, you always want to make sure the customer's using the product. So you have to have an implementation process, you know, from sales implementation to the actual, oh, now they're using the product. And then you just don't want to take— you want to make sure you're touching base with your customer, because I always tell people the first 30 days is the most forward it.

Yeah, good point. Yeah, for sure. It's the follow-up. And it's saving that— the customer that summary time as well, right? So not only does the salesperson now not have to send the follow-up email to say, this is what we discussed, here's our action items, here's what I do, here's what you do, thanks for the call— you, I mean, you can still thank the person and follow up, but it makes— I find, Allen, that If you can solve a problem for me, right? And let's say it's a, it's a $100,000 problem and I've been grinding on it for months. If you can solve that for me, Allen Kopelman, it's a $100,000 problem on my end. If you're going to charge me $10,000 or $20,000 to solve my $100,000 problem, do I care if you solve that in 5 minutes? Or in 5 months, I don't care. But the value is you just fixed a $100,000 problem. So, taking away all these administrative tasks, if AI does that, it allows me to do what I think you just said, do what you do best. When you connect with that customer problem and you found it, it's no different than a doctor who comes and says, hmm, 'Let me look inside your body, which you can't do. I'll look inside. I know where to look. And this little thing about your specific body told me to go to this specific spot. And ah, there it is. I found it.' That's worth its weight in gold. That's all a salesperson does. If AI is taking all my mental energy away from all these administrative tasks, Beautiful. You're not replacing the salesperson, it's just, it's enabling them.

Yeah, I've seen a lot of, you know, a lot of shakeup in businesses because I think businesses sometimes get frustrated when employees don't want to learn how to do, use new technology. And it's kind of funny, like I was talking to a restaurant owner and I like, well, when you go out to eat, how many times when you go to eat at a restaurant do they walk up to you with a tablet for you to pay? And he's like, almost all the time. And I'm like, well, don't you think your customers would prefer that? And then they'd say to me, well, the waiters don't want to do it. And I go, who owns the restaurant? You or the waiter? You know, you have to do— you know, I can show you like, oh, here's this system you're going to put it in. We know, like, if you put this system in your restaurant, we can tell by all the other people that we've helped put this same system in. We know that it's saving them time. They're turning their tables over faster. Their staff is getting bigger tips because people trust the tablet.

Yeah.

And, and you're— and their theft level is reduced.

Interesting.

It has theft, you know, it has anti-theft things built into the system so that people can't use certain tricks that you can do with very basic software. And I tell them this, and I go, but you know, you have to— you know, you have to— how I say, I ask them all the time when they're— whenever we're even looking at any kind of technology that they're going to use, payment technology, I go, how much time— how much is your time worth to you, right? So I say, what is it worth? $100, $200, $300, $500 an hour? Put a number on it. Guy told me my time's worth $500 an hour. I said, okay, how many hours do you spend on this one task that's giving you problems. So the guy told me, goes, I spend 2 hours a day on that. And I said, geez, right? So I said, that's 2 hours times 5, that's 10 hours. 10 hours times $500 is $5,000. I'm showing you—

that's a week, right?

A week. $5,000 a week.

So $20,000 a month, right?

So I'm showing you a tech problem, a tech product that you can pay $500 to $600 a month for that's going to save you those 2 hours every day, and you're telling me that's too expensive? I don't understand that.

That's right.

And I think, you know, people resist these, they resist technology. They're like, no, I want to do it, you know, or they think like, oh, why isn't that technology free? Well, you're asking us to take a $20,000 problem We're solving it for a few hundred dollars and you think it's unreasonable.

So, yeah, I find that interesting. In your example, it's the salesperson that's teaching the customer and the customer's customer. Yeah. You know, they're conditioning the world to behave in a different way.

Yeah, because they think, like, oh, I have to do it by hand. Well, you don't have to do it by hand. We can program that for you into a system, and then you have a system to use to do that. We had another client that had the same exact problem, and it took us about 6 months to close the deal. After we put the system in, the owner of the company called me and he says, you know, I don't know why we resisted this for so long, because we're literally saving like 3 hours a day. A day times 6 days a week.

Wow.

For that, the person who was doing that can now be on the sales floor. They're not back there pricing out, hand pricing out invoices anymore.

Interesting. Well, from a B2B standpoint, it's the, you know, the salesperson lives in that moment.

Right.

It's that moment of change. It's that moment of reset. Yes, it's the space in between. I used to do this. I'm not sure. And then there's the future. And it seems to us where we've tended to get the most sort of revelations is when a salesperson finally realizes you live in that space and you're truly helping that customer. It doesn't cost the customer anything just to be in this space for a minute that says this is the This is my problem. This is the cost of my problem. In your case, it's $20,000 a month, right? Cost of your problem is $20,000 a month. It's $120,000 a year problem. And you can fix that for $20,000. But, you know, tell me, I would borrow money to invest in a return like that.

Yeah, we're like, we're not even asking you to pay for the product upfront. You can do this.

Yeah.

Small down payment and financing, and we do all the programming for you. All you have to do is tell us the parameters of your programming. I was like, you're seriously shipping out— you have like customers and you have 6 product— you have, you have whatever, 10,000 products, right? And then you have 6 price levels. Well, we can program that into the system. So when Customer A orders and they're on price level 2, you just hit a button for that customer, their program, to price level number 2, and they get all their prices. And the guy's like, well, what do you mean? I'm like, yeah, it's all programmed in there. Then that's it. You don't have to hand-do the whole invoice and figure out, put all the hand, you know, hand-do all the pricing. Yeah, that's up your inventory. And then, you know, at the end of the month, oh, how many people, how many customers bought on each price level? And you don't even know that now.

Yeah. And then you can figure out the resistance. The resistance is interesting.

Yeah, it's just, it, it's, it, they, they, their head sometimes, like, we solve a problem for somebody and they scratch their head. We had another client one time and we showed them this billing system. We're like, oh, you just send the invoice to the customer and they click and then they pay. And the guy was like, well, you know, the this, that a municipal customer, right? The municipal customer only wants to pay by a payment link or a paper check. The paper check, they only cut paper checks once a month. So if it's— if you do the work between the 1st and the 15th, they'll cut the check at the end of the month and then put it in the mail to you. If you do the payment link, they'll pay you right away. So we set the guy up to do the payment links. And then the guy calls me on the phone after it's been installed for about 2 months. The guy goes, if I knew it was going to be this easy, he goes, I should have done this a long time ago and not listened to my employees.

So, so the, so, um, the resistance, um, if, if a, if as a salesperson you say, you know what, let's just think through all the things that could go wrong here, all the reasons for it, but more importantly, all the reasons against. That human nature doesn't accept things right away, right?

Right.

I mean, if we did, we'd all be bankrupt. So we have to go to resistance first. So like your product, for example, you describe it and it's a no-brainer, but the automatic resistance in my head says, well, this is too good to be true. Have you done this before? Yes. Have other clients benefited from this? Yes. Could I talk to them? Sure. Like, does it work? Yeah, look at it. Do you want to see a demo? It's staying in that, that space of resistance. And then we finally— I find it's like I'm about to doing something better.

I find it's when you have like a mixture of we had somebody else we did a demo for, and they were like, okay, we want to do it and all this. And then there's older people like— and I'm older, I'm 65, so I don't care.

The older— that's not old, Allen.

No, I know it's not old. I'm just saying, you know, there was somebody else involved in the business that was in my age group, okay? And the person was like, oh, well, this, you know, you know, that's not how we do things. And I'm like, well, if you did this, then everything would be organized. And the person who's doing— working on your QuickBooks and trying to do collections for you wouldn't have to be doing all that. They could be doing something much more productive, like increasing your business, you know, increasing your business. And they just could not. They were like, oh, we can't do that, you know, that's not how— you know, that's not how we do things, you know. Yeah, but I try to explain to them, your customer is getting younger, right? They want these things. Like, when you walk in, I'll get a call from a client. I remember during COVID I got a call and they're like, we need Apple Pay. I'm like, you already have Apple Pay. Every single credit card machine's had Apple Pay since 2015, right? The guy's like, yeah, really? Gets out his phone, tries it. Oh yeah, it does work. Okay, so I don't know what— why you're freaking out. Your machine—

interesting—

has it on there. It has the little squiggly lines. Yeah, that's the Apple Pay. So I said, you know, they didn't know. People just freak out, you know. So things get put into, you know, like payment links. No one wanted to pay with a payment link. All of a sudden COVID comes, nobody wants to touch anybody's credit card, right? So now you have to have all this tap to pay and all that, right?

Right. Yeah.

So that accelerated the— that literally accelerated the adoption of that. Yeah.

So, how does this sound as an idea, Allen? We're talking about sales and AI. For a salesperson, we're experimenting with this. Because the customer is in a state of resistance. I don't know if I should do this yet. It sounds so great but it's a mystery why they won't. So, can we use as part of the sales cycle, use AI to create a simulation? With the customer and say, okay, let's do a simulation. Have AI create a similar simulation, do it on the spot, and say, let's populate Grok or OpenAI with all the information of your circumstance and then how our product would marry up with it and, and give us a simulation, give us an example of how this would actually play out in a scenario. And just see what that AI comes up with. Doesn't cost the customer anything to look at it. They get to look into their own experience, which takes them into the future, and let, you know, let the chips fall where they may.

Yeah, we'll send them, you know, we'll send them, we'll be like, okay, we'll show them a demo and we'll say, okay, what's your phone number? And then we'll punch in their phone number and send them a link and we'll go, okay, how hard was it to do? And they were like, 'Well, we don't know.' I'm like, 'Well, why don't you try it out? We can try it out. If it doesn't work, you can still use the software the old way and enter everything, or you could send the payment links out.' And once they did that, they're like, 'Hey, we're not taking phone calls all day and chasing down people who called after hours and chasing all this money down.' And now the You know, the field got— the guys in the field at night and on the weekend can take a credit card, and it's not like they don't have to wake somebody up to take a credit card, man. You know, it's— they're like, it changed their whole business, you know. And they're— and they see it, saw their sales like double in a year.

Holy cow.

Yeah.

And yeah, it should be—

it should be just flying off the shelves because people were like, the people are paying them faster. Right? Yeah, hey, they're paying faster because you're giving them the way to pay right now, you know? Right, that's what people want. They don't want to, you know— but I mean, AI, like, for salespeople— I was talking to one of my sales reps, he's like, oh, I don't know what to say in the email. I'm like, dude, open up OpenAI. And I said, I'll show you. I did a screen share with them. I'm like, okay, what are we going to write to the customer? Oh, blah blah blah. We wrote out sort of what we wanted to say, right? But it didn't sound good. Then I said, now let's put it— now we're going to copy that into OpenAI, because I had a Word doc, copy and paste it. And then it said, yeah, turn this into a letter, an email that I'm going to send, what the person's name is, the name of their business, blah blah blah blah blah, boom, and hit the button. And that produces beautiful email.

Yeah.

So I go, there you go, boom. Now copy, paste, and then email it to your customer. There you go. Now you have a nice— and, and it asks you, oh, what tone do you want it? Friendly, professional, you know?

Perfect. Yeah.

And then it gives it to you, and then you look at it. Maybe you want to change it, you want to make sure it sounds right. You can put it back into the Word document, do a spell check, punctuation check, because AI is not perfect.

Sure.

Maybe there's something you want to add to it and you add that, and then you send. Now you— now instead of sitting there racking your brain for an hour coming up with an email, you're done in 5 or 10 minutes.

Sure. Yeah.

But people resist that. They're like, oh, I don't know, I don't know. What do you mean you don't know? You have to train the AI. I've trained my AI. Like, I, I do— I write blogs. So sometimes when I'm writing, when I want to do a blog, I'll write like just stream of consciousness. I'll even talk into the thing into the computer.

Sure.

Tell it a whole bunch of stuff. Yeah, I want this blog, it's about this, this, this, and this, blah blah blah blah blah. Or maybe I type some of it up and then I hit boom, and it knows that I have a prompt already set up, blog prompt. So then it follows the blog prompt and spits out the blog.

Sure. Yeah. And it just does, it just does the polish.

Yeah. Then you take it, you put it in Word and clean it up and do, you know, make make sure things sound correct because, you know, sometimes it doesn't sound correct. So you have to make sure that it does. But everybody needs to learn how to use AI. It's worth— yeah, bucks a month. It's a small—

yeah, it's, it's, it's— and, you know, proposals is another thing. You know, if you're— what customer doesn't like to get a proposal? Like, for example, um, you know, you buy a house or you buy a car. Right. Two biggest purchases a person will ever buy. And I know this isn't business to business, but as an example, it just absolutely blows me away. You know, you talk to a car salesperson and they're asking you to look at whatever, say it's a $50,000 car and they're not giving you a proposal.

Yeah.

Like, you know, show me that you've listened to me. Show me that you understand my circumstance and how this thing is supposed to serve my life in the way I want it to serve my life? And they just spit a number at you. But, you know, all that to say, um, in a business situation, if, if you're truly understanding a customer's problem, their circumstance, you've gone through a process of uncovering the need, and then you provided a solution that matches that, you put together a proposal. Well, why wouldn't you put your proposal together as best you can and then you know, give it to AI to put some polish on it and color it up. Doesn't cost you anything. Customer doesn't mind. You're not hurting anybody. You're not cheating, right? Yeah, you're not cheating.

Look at it like, oh, that's cheating. I'm like, what do you mean it's cheating? You're using a tool. Your competitor is probably using the tool. The guy down the street's using the tool. Maybe another guy in your sales company is using the tool.

But you're the customer. The customer is not paying you to be an artist. Right, or professional writer. They're paying you to find and fix a problem. So if you're using a tool that helps communicate, it's, it's nothing but appreciated. It's a great thing. So it's, it's not going to replace you, don't worry.

Yeah, AI, I don't think AI is replacing people. I think people that know how to use AI are replacing people who don't know how to use AI. And resisting it.

It's a fantastic way to put it. Yeah.

I mean, AI, you know, a lot of tool, you know, I mean, there's tools coming out every day for AI, which is crazy. One of my, I will give a shout out to my favorite AI tool besides OpenAI. I try, I try them all out, by the way, you know, free versions, but we have this tool called Search Atlas that we started using for our website. For SEO, and it does SEO, but it also does large language model modeling. So when you have a web page, you can ask it, okay, is this page searchable for the large language models? And then it'll tell you what you need to fix on the page. And it's funny, you know, I tell— I was telling somebody, they were making a new website, they said, can you give me one pointer? And I said, one pointer would be Every page on your site needs to have a list of frequently asked questions because large language models only do one thing: answer questions.

I see.

So if you have the right question or you have a blog post that answers a question, that's going to show up in the large language model.

Yeah, which is crazy.

No one knows where this is going. Like, SEO is like— Google going to blow up and disappear because people are going to start shopping inside of the AI chatbots?

Yeah, I think, you know, it's— I think we're at an interesting spot. It's not that AI is gonna— and this is just my opinion— it's not that AI is gonna replace the salesperson. Automated purchasing, that's different, right? You know, you and I buy something on Amazon. I already know what I want. I can search for the the product. If I just want a list of features, I can do all that. I don't need a salesperson for that. You know what we found, Allen? Our bigger customers, we have one very large one, Cargill. They did a, I believe it was like a 2-year process where they literally profiled all their customers around the world. And this is like hundreds of thousands of customers. And they basically found that the bottom 42% of customers were already purchasing product online or intending to. So, those numbers have really played out. The bottom third of salespeople, bottom third, bottom 40%, I would say, are literally getting replaced by automatic purchasing. Now, that's good news. Because those 30 or 40% at the bottom were just features dumpers anyway. If you're showing up just as a vending machine, customers don't need you. And that's where salespeople get a bad rap and it drives me nuts because it's the top half of salespeople, certainly the top 25% that are fantastic at finding and fixing a problem for a customer. If that's your preoccupation, AI can't do that. And, and you're, you're hugely valuable to that customer.

Exactly.

That, that's the, that's the sweet spot.

So if you want to give us, uh, we're finishing up here, so give us, give us 3 tips on what salespeople should be doing with experimenting or trying out if they haven't used AI yet. What are 3 things a salesperson should be doing with AI?

Yeah, I would say first of all, Allen, first of all, get AI to do as much of your admin as possible. Everything that we've talked about here— summarize your calls, summarize action items, input it into your CRM, condense all your summary work and just capture it and cut and paste it, get rid of it, do your expenses, stuff like that. That's number one. Two, as we talked about, polish up your messaging to customers. If it's emails, if it's proposals, do that. Three, have the AI. Again, we talked about this. Have the AI just do an outside looking in. What are customers, what are my customers in this industry experiencing as problems right now? What are their challenges? To help point them towards the conversation they may want to have with their customers. I think that's huge. The fourth, and this is just the idea that we talked about 15 minutes ago, have the AI do a simulation for the customer's circumstance to see what the product fit would look like. Because you know that it's that initial resistance to our product that we have to expect the customer to come up with. The customer is going to resist your product and that's okay. That's a healthy thing to do. Have the AI actually create a simulation. It may come up with nothing valuable but it may come up with something that spurs another idea for you and your customer on the spot. So, there's 4 things I'd use it for.

I would say number 5, put your customer in AI and get like an overview of your customer, the company, and maybe the person you're talking to, because that can give you some insight into having a good human conversation with them about something you find on there. So, if people want to find you, Rob, what's the best way for people to get in touch?

AspireSelling.com is our website. And then I'd love for people to read the books. I'd love your feedback. Cheating Death. And Spire Selling, or Spire Sales Culture. Amazon, they're on Amazon. Yeah, pretty easy to find. You know, my YouTube channel at, uh, at Spire Selling, and, um, like, you know, LinkedIn page, the usual haunts.

All right, so that's where you find us. Find Rob on spireselling.com, check out his YouTube page, maybe check out his books on Amazon. We'll post some links for that. And I want to thank you for joining us on the podcast today, B2B Vault. We're available on YouTube, Apple, Spotify, any other podcast listening apps that— whichever one you use, we're probably on there. And you can follow us on LinkedIn. And again, B2B Vault sponsored by nationwidepaymentsystems.com. And check out NPS One. Our smart invoicing tool. So everybody, thanks for listening today. Peace out. Carpe diem, everybody. Have a great day.

Thanks, Allen.

Thanks.