The Creator of MakeLoveNotPxxn Joins Us | Biz To Biz Podcast

Welcome to the Biz to Biz Podcast, your number one source for all business news. Hey, hey, everybody. Welcome to another episode of B2B Vault, the Biz to Biz Podcast sponsored by Nationwide Payment Systems and our new product NPS One, which is the smart gateway and smart invoicing solution for businesses. And today all our guests are special, but today we're joined by Cindy Gallup, And she's a longtime client of ours and friend of, you know, we talk all the time, business. I speak to her staff and help them, and she's with a company called Make Love Not Porn. So welcome to the show, Cindy, and introduce yourself to the audience.

Thanks so much, Allen. I'm delighted to be here. Um, hello everyone. Um, I'm Cindy Gallop. I'm the founder and CEO of Make Love Not Porn. We are, as our tagline says, pro-sex, pro-porn, pro-knowing the difference. And my background is 40 years working in brand building, marketing, and advertising, which I always say is very good experience for what I do now, because I've spent 40 years working in the business of getting people to do things that they originally had no intention of doing. A very useful skill.

That's what they say when you're trying to sell something to somebody, right? You're selling them sometimes things they might not need, right?

Absolutely. But as, as we always used to say at the ad agency I spent a lot of time at, we don't sell, we make people want to buy, right?

Exactly. So, you know, so, you know, whenever, whenever we talk, you know, we always get into the discussion of you know, pornography, and what's the difference between what you do and like what's pornography. And I know we always get back to the discussion when you want to get a merchant account, if there's any nudity, unfortunately it's all governed the same way by the credit card companies. And maybe that's not right, but I'm not in charge. So tell us a little bit about that. Part of your journey.

Um, absolutely, Allen. So, so for, um, our listeners, um, my business Make Love Not Porn actually came about as a complete and total accident. I did not consciously intentionally set out to do anything I very bizarrely find myself doing now. It came about because I date younger men. They tend to be in their 20s. Wow. And I, and I realized through dating younger men something like 18, 19 years ago, that I was encountering very personally and intimately what happens when two things converge. And I stress the dual convergence, Allen, because most people think it's only one thing. I realized I was experiencing what happens when today's total freedom of access to hardcore porn online meets our society's equally total reluctance to talk openly and honestly about sex. It's when those two factors converge that porn becomes sex education by default, in not a good way. So I found myself encountering a number of sexual behavioral memes in bed. I went, whoa, I know where that behavior is coming from. I thought, gosh, if I'm experiencing this, other people must be as well. I didn't know that because 18 years ago, No one talked about this, no one wrote about it. This is me in isolation as a naturally action-oriented person going, "I'm gonna do something about this." So nearly 17 years ago now, purely at the time as a little side venture, I put up on no money a tiny clunky website at makelovenotporn.com that in its original version was kind of a public service announcement. Porn world versus real world. Here's what happens in the porn world, here's what really happens in the real world. I launched Make Love Not Porn at the TED conference in 2009. I became the only TED speaker to utter the words "come on my face" on the TED stage several times. The talk went viral as a result, and it drove this extraordinary global response to my tiny website that I had never anticipated. Thousands of people wrote to me from all around the world, young and old, male and female, straight and gay, pouring their hearts out. I realized I'd uncovered a huge global social issue. And so that was when I turned Make Love Not Porn into a business designed to do good and make money simultaneously, what I believe the future of all business should be. And so I turned it into what we are today, which is the world's first and only user-generated, importantly 100% human-curated social sex video sharing platform. So we're kind of what Facebook would be if it allowed you to openly, healthily, socially, sexually self-express, which it clearly doesn't. The way to think about us is if porn is the Hollywood blockbuster movie, Make Love, Not Porn is the badly needed documentary.

It's like I saw, I saw one of your videos and one of your videos you were saying when you're talking about sex education to children that we need to educate them about porn and what's going on with porn because they don't understand. And I thought that was really interesting comment that you made.

Yeah, no, you're absolutely right, Allen. And actually what is very exciting is that In addition to, you know, Make Love Not Porn, which has now been operating as a business for 13 years, and as you say, we've been working with you for most of those 13 years, we're very grateful for the business partnership we have. We are about to launch a new platform, an extension of Make Love Not Porn, which I conceived of because parents and teachers began reaching out to me from day one of Make Love Not Porn begging me for the 0 to 18 and beyond sex education extension of what we do. And so I came up with the idea 10 years ago of makelovenotporn.academy. And by the way, it's been 10 years in the pipeline because that's how long investors have refused to fund it. But Make Love Not Porn Academy operates on the same lines as Make Love Not Porn, user-generated crowdsourced, 100% human-curated revenue share. Because I'm not about reinventing the wheel. We are building a global aggregation hub for the best of the world's sex education content that is already out there but has been blocked, censored, and deplatformed everywhere. So we are building the Google of sex ed. I managed to raise a small amount of equity crowdfunding last year and some bridge funding. We've just completed the build of the platform. Um, we have over 100 educators on standby. We're about to invite them in to populate the platform with content, and then we'll take makelovenotporn.academy live, hopefully within the next couple of months.

Wow, that's a great venture. I'm not going to ask now any specifics about that. Let's not get in trouble. Let's talk about, you know, when you talked about deplatforming and things like that, I know I have clients that are in similar business types to you, even nightclub businesses that are in the adult, you know, adult nature nightclubs, or even people that own an adult store where they're selling sex toys. They're not even doing anything, you know, not having any porn or anything. And a lot of them have been deplatformed by banks, by credit card processors. Some of that caused by the merchants themselves by not reading the terms of service from people like Square, Stripe, Shopify, PayPal, so on and so forth, and not understanding that those, those companies don't necessarily support every business type, you know, blanketly. And, but banking is, you know, something that's, you know, been a huge problem for those businesses for a really long time. You want to talk about that a little bit?

Absolutely, Allen. So what I did not realize when I embarked on building Make Love Not Porn was that I and my tiny team would fight a battle every day, not even to grow Make Love Not Porn, just to keep it going. Basically because, as you've referenced, every piece of business infrastructure any other tech startup takes for granted, we can't. The small print always says no adult content. And that is all pervasive across every area of the business in ways that people outside the sphere don't realize. You know, I can't get funded, I can't get banked. Earlier this year, Make Love Not Porn was debanked 3 times in 2 months, which has to be some kind of record. Fortunately, we found a 4th bank, but I couldn't believe that I was dealing with this in 2025. Every tech service we need to use as a video platform— hosting, encoding, encrypting— The terms of service always say no adult content. And my two biggest business growth inhibitors are number one, payments, because as you know, we have to pay extortionate fees compared to mainstream rates. And number two, we are banned from promoting and advertising Make Love Not Porn anywhere. So people who would love what we do can't find out about us. Now, I'm a great believer that when you have a truly world-changing startup, You have to change the world to fit it, not the other way around. Because if the ecosystem that is meant to enable you to scale and thrive shuts you out, build your own ecosystem. So, I've said publicly for years that one day I want to build the Stripe of sextech. Because the payment app that welcomes legal, ethical, transparent ventures like mine cleans up. There is a huge financial opportunity in restricted business. And I don't mean just sextech and adult, you know, like us. Cannabis, psychedelics, crypto itself, even businesses you would not think would be restricted. So, um, Stripe have just decided that they are adding crowdfunding platforms to their restricted category. So I picked up two LinkedIn posts over the past few weeks from two female founders, both of whom are building crowdfunding platforms who had integrated Stripe at cost to themselves, only to be suddenly told by Stripe that they refused to work with them. So I'm happy to—

Send them to me. I'll help them.

Well, but extortion fees, Allen, that's the issue.

Yeah, but the fees, you know, you have to remember, you know, we're— I would say like my company and the vendors we work with, we are not trying to punish higher risk businesses. Businesses. Okay, now, you know, some of the problem with things like crowdfunding, and you know, when you have creator platforms, you're dealing with people who are paying you $5, right? Small amounts of money. And part of that issue is that a lot of people are using debit cards, and those debit cards have high fees on them. That was set up by Dick Durbin and the Durbin Amendment back in 2010. And that's what causes like high fees, even for like coffee shops, bodegas, small, these small little, you know, convenience stores. They all deal with the same thing that the content creator websites deal with, the crowdfunding websites deal with, the pornography adult sites deal with. That, that's just, that's just built in. That's just unfortunately a thing that's not correct. And I think that it should be corrected and debit shouldn't be priced the way it's priced because it really hurts people with a smaller ticket, right? And, you know, for crowdfunding, you see a lot of those kind of sites. What they do is pass a small fee to the people giving so that that kind of like offsets, you know, the, the fees that they're, they're, you know, they're getting, you know, you know what I mean? So that's—

huh? So here's how I'm proposing to solve that, um, Allen, with my own product, okay? Because I've been working on this for some time now. So, um, so, um, you already know, but I'm going to explain to our listeners that one of the things that makes Make Love Not Porn unique is our operational model, which I call the human curation layer on top of the internet. I designed Make Love Not Porn to be the safest place on the internet because I designed it around what everybody else should have, nobody else did, 100% human curation. There is no self-publishing of anything. Our curation team watches every video submitted from beginning to end before we approve or reject and we publish it. No one else does that. We review every post on every member profile And by the way, on Make Love Not Porn, those posts can be as safe work or not safe work as you like, but we review them, we approve or reject, and we publish them. No one else does that.

We review every comment on every video before you definitely go a lot farther than most people go.

So we, we can vouch for every single piece of content on our platform in a way that no one else can. And the key thing about that is we are tiny bootstrapping, have no money And we've human-curated everything for 13 years. And by the way, imagine what Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, Snapchat could do with their billions if they chose to. Safety on the internet is not a matter of viability, it's a matter of will. So we've designed an extremely efficient, highly scalable human curation model, which we plan to operate for our fintech product. And by the way, the challenge in building the Stripe of sextech is not so much the technology, it's finding a bank willing to partner and underwrite it. I've been talking to banks for now nearly 17 years. I found a bank which, because of our human curation model, where our team will vet every single applicant in the same way we do on Make Love Not Porn, to make sure they're legal, ethical, and transparent, is willing to partner. And we have found an infrastructure partner because this will— and I never thought I'd say these words positively— this will use crypto and the blockchain to operate. And so we are— we plan to proof test this, see if it works for us, and then when it does, turn into a standalone product everybody else can use.

Yeah, crypto, that's a whole other subject I could get into. When I first started to work with, um, crypto several years ago, and I started to really dive in and learn about it, one of my friends, we got— he was doing mining, and I learned about what mining was, and I learned all about crypto. One of the big things that I learned, the attraction to crypto, and was the— basically it was— had nothing to do with the financial structure of what you're dealing with, with money and credit cards and banking, right? So it's basically, you know, off-the-grid financial activity. Me, right? It's like taking cash, and I take my cash and I pay this person and that person, and nobody knows. Because if people pay me cash and then I pay for things in cash, nobody knows where all my cash goes. And that's how crypto was in the beginning. But now the governments have gotten a hold of crypto. Even Visa and MasterCard have started to mess around with crypto. And it's a, uh, you know, it's a game because you can't, you have hot wallets and cold wallets and cold wallets can't be tracked, but a hot wallet can be tracked. I learned all these crazy things and we processed millions of dollars of crypto. And then the federal government decided to come in under Biden and they changed the definition of crypto from cryptocurrency to saying crypto is now a digital asset. So they start calling it an asset versus a currency, and now there's tax issues with that. Now over in Europe, they treat it completely differently, and people transact with crypto regularly. And here in the US, that's kind of slowed to a snail's pace at this point. I don't know what's going to happen with it. All this talk about stablecoins also— if you saw the latest crash on with the crypto market, the stablecoin that's supposed to be a dollar for a dollar was now worth $0.63 the other day. So that's a little troubling.

Well, so, so the unique things about what I want to do in building— and by the way, I'm calling this app BlockFree. I want to free us all from the blocks of fintech injustice. Plus, I'm building on the blockchain. I have a holding page at blockfree.us. Because I like the rallying cry of BlockFreeUs. I've been talking to potential partners for years. I've found an excellent crypto blockchain partner. And also, and the key thing about what we want to do is I've said to them, when we build this, the important thing is that for our members, for our Make Love Not Pornsers, our contributors, because we have all the same issues with payouts, as you know too, Allen. So it's a pay-in-pay-out scenario that we're building a solution to. I've said the key thing is that as far as our members are concerned, it's money in. As far as I make my porn stars are concerned, it's money out. The words blockchain, crypto, and stablecoin must occur nowhere near this, right? It's just how it works. Because the crypto community has not told this story well enough to the man and woman in the street. Sam Bankman-Fried does not help matters. And so unlike every other crypto product I want to build something where, yes, it absolutely runs on the blockchain, but nobody needs to know how it works because it just works easily and magically as money in, money out. That's the game plan.

Yeah, that's the— I mean, that's the problem now, you know, the creator economy is having issues now and it's the high cost. There's also, you know, you talked about the high cost of credit card processing and banking, but also the pay apps. You know, some of the companies who do that have been limited in what they can do by financial institutions, right? And crack down on and caused creators to be debanked because they get a deposit and then the bank wants to know, oh, where did this money come from? $3,000, $5,000, $10,000, $50,000 that they're making. And then the creators get debanked, which is not good also. Because, you know, we have this creator economy.

No, exactly. And so what we are envisioning is a fintech app that you can pay into from your bank account, pays out to your bank account, and basically operates at much lower fees and can operate globally. And by the way, if any investors are listening, go to blockfree.us. My holding page is there and you can hit me up.

No, listen, it can work, you know, it can work. That's, you know, one thing I found is that with adult sites, uh, there's been a trend, like, especially in the last few years, to people to pay with gift cards to be more anonymous, you know. And now the gift card companies, every time you get a gift card, they want you to put in your address and your zip code, but you can bypass it. And that's, you know, a lot of people and those making purchases on the internet, even for things like CBD or hemp or whatever it is that they're buying, they will go get a gift card just so they can be an anonymous purchaser. And that's a struggle for businesses too, because, you know, someone can commit fraud with those transactions. You know, doing stuff like that.

So, do you know what's interesting about— again, what's different about Make Love Not Porn, Allen, is, you know, we are, as I mentioned, we are socializing, normalizing, and destigmatizing sex, bringing out of the shadows into the sunlight. Our members love what we do because we are out in the open. And so, um, we have the kind of community where infuriatingly— and you mentioned because things are more rigorous in Europe, you know, a member will write to us and say, you know, "My transaction didn't go through," and we'll say, "Terribly sorry, you know, if you just let your bank know this is an absolutely okay transaction, it should go through." And quite often, you know, the bank will say, "We're not stopping this, it should be going through, we don't know why it isn't." And so we will say to our member, 'You know, can we talk to your bank?' And they'll go, 'Sure.' So we've spoken directly to banks because our members have no issue with giving us access to their bank to sort this out. That's a very different attitude from the person who wants to be totally anonymous and have nobody know anything about what they're doing. So the different nature of our product and our platform actually facilitates more openness and willingness to be associated with it, which we also want to build on, you know, as a benefit as we build the future of fintech for sextech, adult, cannabis, psychedelics, crypto, and all restricted businesses. And by the way, Allen, I'm going to be very pragmatic. The path to exit is very clear. As and when I can build and launch BlockFree, when I prove I can take restricted business payments safely, securely, and cheaply, the game plan is that giant fintech buys that from me for an absolute goddamn fucking shit ton of money. That's the end goal.

That's the end-all. Okay, listen, it sounds good. It's a plan, you know. Everybody says, you know, you don't fail the plan— you plan to— you don't fail— you don't plan to fail, you fail. You know, you have to make a good plan and execute the plan. Listen, my mom, she's 90 years old. You know what my mom tells me? She goes, everybody should be reading romance novels. She goes, it'll be good for your sex life.

She's right, she's absolutely right. And by the way, by the way, Allen Kopelman, you know, romance novels are like the biggest best-selling sector of publishing, but everyone looks down on them because they think they're mostly read by women. They are hugely successful, and your mother is absolutely right. In fact, a couple of years earlier, a friend of mine is a romance novelist, and we held a wonderful evening in my apartment for romance novelists and editors when the romance convention was in town., in order to talk about how they could learn from Make Love Not Porn to write more realistic sex scenes in their novels. And they loved it.

It needs to be realistic. I saw another video of you this morning on Instagram because, you know, I follow you, and you were talking about you should talk to your partner. Yeah, you're giving— it's, you know, you're giving advice to people. People are getting advice from you, they're getting advice from the people on your platform. It's not just a hardcore porn site where—

no, not at all—

things are going on that people are seeing, right? That's not realistic. You know, they're looking at things that aren't realistic, and they should check out the Make Love Not Porn site.

They absolutely should.

So what, you know, you mentioned AI, and when you wrote to me about coming on the podcast, and AI is like a huge subject matter. One of the things that drives me crazy is how many people are trying to make AI porn sites, which is crazy. And, you know, they try to create these like realistic looking AI bots, you know, and most of them don't get approved by the bank because the bank goes in and tests them. And then, you know, there's no arm, there's no leg, you know, stuff like that. What, what are you doing with AI?

Sure. So, so I have a very different AI strategy, Allen, which I came up with 6 years ago because I was talking to a friend whose background was AI and machine learning who told me that what I envisage is possible. I just need to be able to raise the funding for it. So as you know, you know, OpenAI, ChatGPT are all built on LLMs, large language models. Yes. At Make Love Not Porn, I have something very unique. I have an LVM. I have a large video model that is the world's only pool of fully consensual, 100% human-curated, real-world sex videos. I want to use that large video model. I want to use AI to turn it into an algorithm for consent with a number of different applications across industries because this is not a consumer-facing application. This is an enterprise application. I'll give you a couple examples. The first one is for use in Hollywood. And I say that because all around us in popular culture, we are surrounded by sex scenes that purport to be consensual, but are actually modeling non-consensual sexual behavior. Whether it is Game of Thrones, where pretty much the only way anyone has sex is rape, or it's rom-coms, where even in a love story, when you get to the sex scene, there is zero foreplay, instant penetration, no communication, instant simultaneous orgasm. Imagine being able to run your script or your film through an algorithm that would tell you whether or not what you were modeling in your sex scene was or wasn't consensual. Another use case, a very obvious one, is criminal court, because As I think we all know, something like 1% of all rape cases ever make their way into the judicial system. Something like 0.00-something percent ever result in convictions. Imagine being able to use an algorithm to bypass the he said, she said of the courtroom, the entrenched bias in the minds of old male judges, to be able to deduce the nuance of whether what happened was or wasn't consensual.

So, um, that's further down the line, but that one you better go get Mariska Hargitay. She's down the street from you.

She would be a great spokesperson. Absolutely. I, I just need funding to be able to—

well, maybe she'll be interested. Let's shout out to Law Order: SVU. Check this out. Could be your next, uh, you could do a whole episode on Cindy's, uh, AI product.

And, um, and do you know, I'm going to tell you a fun fact, Allen. And by the way, listeners, if you go to makelovenotporn.ai, I've got a holding page there. You know, investors, contact me if you're interested. But here's a fun fact for you, Allen. So I used to live downtown here in York, in Chelsea, in, um, in a place called The Black Apartment. And by the way, listeners, if you Google The Black Apartment, you'll see it. It was quite famous. It was featured in various music videos. But here's the fun fact. So my apartment features in, I think it's the season finale of something like season 13 of Law Order: SVU. Wow. And it features because the location manager came round, looked at my apartment, and I think he was a bit nervous. He said to me, "This would be perfect for, script description, pimp's den." And I went, fantastic, I'll happily rent you my apartment to be a pimp's den. And the hysterical thing, Allen, was they didn't even need to dress it with props. They filmed a massive party in a pimp's den in my apartment pretty much as was. So all my friends recognized it, you know, oh, it's this apartment being a pimp's den.

I'm gonna have to go write that down. Season 15.

Yeah, I think it is— I'm trying to— it's Law and Order SVU. I'm pretty certain it's Season 13, and it's either the premiere or the finale. Okay, I'll see if I can find the link and send it to you after this.

Okay, because I'm a big fan of Law Order: SVU, and you know, it's, uh, nobody wants to deal with anything having to do with, you know, sexual assault and all that. Yeah, and you're right, you know, you know, there's been episodes on that TV show where a kid is watching a porn movie and then acting it out with a Yeah, one woman, and then, you know, that's not right. They're not being— they're seeing the wrong thing and then thinking that that's what somebody wants when that's not what somebody wants. And exactly, you know, that's— it's not right. You know, my mom used to— when Fifty Shades of Grey came out, I'll never forget, I was in the car with my mom. My mom's gonna kill me if she hears this.

Yeah.

And my mom— and my daughter was in the car, she was 18. And my mom says, you know, I'm reading this book Fifty Shades of Grey, my daughter's turning 50. I'm laughing. And she goes, yeah, there's some stuff in there, they're talking about taking a girl and spanking her. She goes, do women ask you to do that? Because I'm single at the time. She goes, I want to know, do they ask you to do that?

Oh my God, I love that, Allen Kopelman. And by the way, um, to our listeners, this is also where Make Love Not Porn is a lot of fun, because we celebrate the full glorious spectrum of human sexuality. We have a ton of BDSM kink videos, but what you see on Make Love Not Porn is you see the real world version. So for example, we have a ton of roleplay videos, but only on Make Love Not Porn when you see a couple who've decided to do a roleplay you know, halfway through, one of them says to the other, "You know what, this isn't really doing it for me." The other one goes, "Yeah, it's a little bit meh." They go, "Let's just have sex." You know, and it's very important to see that because what it says is this is very low stakes. You can actually try something, find out halfway through you don't like it. You don't have to, like, power through regardless. You can just go, "Okay, tried that, didn't work, on to the next." You know, and it's important to see that that's how this really works in the real world.

Yeah, that really shocked me when my mom said that. So, you know, my mom's, you know, been like that my whole life, you know.

It's great. I love that.

We have a very good relationship, and, you know, that's just—

I love that. That's fantastic. That's excellent.

Yeah, my mom does not watch porn, by the way.

So, well, she should watch Make Love Not Porn. There are lots of wonderful older Make Love Not Porn stars showing that you can carry on having great sex as long as you want.

Okay, well, tell her to go check it out. I don't know if she will or not. He's busy with the romance novels. No, it's, you know, it, you, when you said, you know, when, you know, when you talk about, like, we talk about these, like, financial issues that go on in business, you know, and, and, and the, the control government has sometimes too much control over things. And sometimes I see people like, and I'm dealing with a merchant now, they got on the match list because they sell vitamins and there was a product, you know, something in one of the vitamins that's banned. Now, I believe the banks and the Visa and MasterCard should say, hey, Mr. Merchant, you should— we want you to remove that from your site, right? Or whatever it is. And then, you know, that's your, you know, you get one, you know, you get one spank. You know, on the hand, remove it, and if you behave, then you won't go on the match list. And I don't— just don't see, you know, especially from the PayPals, the Stripes, those type of companies, I don't see that kind of behavior. And even from some of the banks, they just, you know, boom, that's it. And they could have been processing for that person for years. And it's, you know, it's a shame. And I saw a few merchants who had, um, just basic, you know, adult novelty stores, and the same thing happened to them. Now, they were able to recover. Something like that— vitamins— is much more difficult because you have FDA and FTC rules and things like that. I just tell everybody, one of the things that we specialize in— Nationwide Payment Systems, working for— with Cindy and her team for many years— is making sure that you don't violate any rules. You play by the rules. They ask for paperwork, it gets filled out, it gets sent back. Everybody's in good communication and you, and you keep your merchant account open. That's the most important thing. And especially with creator, um, creator sites, you know, I applaud Cindy for what they do. Believe me, none of these other sites like OnlyFans, they don't watch every single video. And everything that's going on. And, and, you know, that can be troublesome at times. So, you know, the— those type, you know, having the— that level of due diligence, you know, we don't find every day from any— doesn't matter what kind of— people don't understand, like, these live— these sites where there's live video or recorded video on there There are rules and the rules have to be, you know, their rules are strict because they don't want kids. You know, we have, we're seeing like a lot of intervention from the government when it comes to adult websites where they want people to put in their driver's license and their age and register and all of these things in various states around the United States. Have you had problems with that?

We haven't actually, Allen, because, so we were approached by Off Ofcom, which is the regulatory body in the UK, because the UK has passed the Online Safety Act. And so Ofcom requires that any adult site that is accessible in the UK must guarantee age gating. And the important thing about this is that age gating means that no one under 18 can access your services.

Right.

Age verification is only one tool within that. So in our case at Make Love Not Porn, we were already Online Safety Act compliant because, you know, first of all, our content is all behind a paywall. You know, you can't see anything unless you pay for it. Secondly, you know, this is where our constraints on payments, I guess, are a good thing because we can only take Mastercard and Visa, and those are— 18 is the minimum age of issuance. For those. In order to pay on Make Love Not Porn, you have to sign up as a member, so you have to give us an authentic email, you have to confirm it. You know, all of that is age-gating. And then the only thing that we had to do that we weren't already doing to be compliant with Ofcom was we had to blur anything not safe for work in front of the paywall, which is just a few stills on, you know, because all the videos are behind. So in our case, we are age-gated, you know, Ofcom signed off on that against the UK Online Safety Act. So I think what a lot of people don't realize is that age verification is one tool in that arsenal, but if you are doing other things that mean no one under 18 can access your content, then that, that actually works.

So it's super important. So any— so if you want to make— you want to invest with Cindy, we'll post all the links underneath.

Fantastic.

What she's doing, learn about— I mean, Cindy is a serial entrepreneur. She is entrepreneuring. I've, I've been an entrepreneur most of my life. I've owned multiple businesses, this one for over 25 years, but she is definitely the serial entrepreneur. I've been watching her. I watch what she does. I see her publicity and everything, and I says, oh, you got to come on the podcast. Finally, I got her. Her travel. She was in New York, boom, and we got her on the podcast. So any final words for our listeners, like about being an entrepreneur and, you know, or whatever you want, whatever words of advice you want to give to people?

Yeah, I'd obviously—

a little pitch where to find you.

So let's—

yeah, absolutely.

No, I really appreciate it. I mean, first of all, honored and thrilled to be on your podcast, so I'm delighted. Thank you so much. To our listeners, first of all, if you like what I've said, go to makelovenotporn.com, support me, sign up, subscribe. Investors, you know, Allen will share the links to the things I'm building. But I think the one thought, Allen, I really want to leave you and our audience with is what I mentioned earlier, which is that, you know, if the ecosystem that is meant to enable you to scale and thrive is problematic, build your own ecosystem. I realized over time that every business obstacle I encounter is a huge disruptive money-making business opportunity in itself. And everything we've discussed today says the opportunity is wide open to find different ways of coming at it, doing it, addressing it, solving it, that by the way, will absolutely make you an absolute goddamn fucking shit ton of money. So get all over that, listeners, is what I'm saying. Okay.

So thank everybody for listening to B2B Vault, the Biz to Biz Podcast. Thank you for Cindy for being a guest today from Make Love Not Porn. Check out her website. You can find the podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you listen to podcasts. We're on every single app and YouTube. This way you can watch us laugh. At all this stuff we were talking about. And I hope my mom didn't listen today. I'll send her some clips from the podcast.

I think your mother would love this podcast interview, Allen, and you have to have to listen to it.

Oh, she will. I'm gonna send it to her and say, hey, Mom, you got a bunch of shoutouts during the podcast. And, uh, that's it. My mom says marriages would be better if the husband and wives all read romance novels and watch Make Love Not Porn.

And watch Make Love Not Porn. We've saved numerous marriages. Exactly, exactly.

So thank you for listening. Carpe diem and peace out.